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Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:06:00 -
[1]
Or why ship+subsystems will never hit CCP's 300m price goal.
Hull prices are now down to 500m or below. But they are irrelevant. Hulls have no slots. Hull have joke stats. You cannot undock, assemble, or even preview a tech-3 hull without subsystems. So let us not be distracted by hull production. Let us instead look at subsystem production; a process which is utterly broken.
Step 1: The buy-in. To start, you'll need a POS tower, Experimental Lab, and fuel. The lab can be used an infinite number of times, and the POS and fuel may be used for other purposes, so they are difficult to factor in to per-job costs. Then there's the subsystems engineering skills to train: Rank 5, 10m each with some heavy prerequisites.
Then, per job, you will need: A Malfunctioning relic: Prices stable at 20-25m (Intact and Wrecked discussed below) A R.A.M. Hybrid Tech: 0.5m A racial Hybrid Tech decrpytor: 1-2m 3 Subsystems Engineering datacores: Prices stable at 15-20m each
Now that you've got your 67-87 million buy-in, you must offer it to;
Step 2: The Random Number God
The Random Number God governs many things in EvE. ECM (another thread), Invention, but none more so than Reverse Engineering.
For Invention, you may offer up many additional sacrifices to satisfy the Random Number God. You may offer unto Him a Decryptor, that He may bless you with more successful jobs or more runs. You may also offer up a base item, so that He may be pleased and grant you more successful jobs.
For Reverse Engineering your only hope of increasing His favor is to offer up an additional 40-60 million for an Intact relic. Do not even contemplate offering Him a Wrecked Relic, for He shall smite you and put a plague on your labs.
Then, if the Random Number God is mollified, he may grant you a successful job. Or is it?
The Random Number God is a cruel and capricious deity. He may bless you with a Proteus Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier Blueprint.
Or He may mock you, and curse you with a Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor Blueprint. There are no base items, no decryptors, no expensive relics that may mollify Him here.
If a Malfunctioning Relic gives you a 30% "success" chance, then you have only a 7.5% chance of a real success and getting the BPC you wanted. And at current rates, each ticket to this lottery costs 4-5 U.S. Dollars.
Now that you have been cursed with a Gravitational Capacitor Blueprint, do you hope to recoup part of your losses by building and selling it? Prepare to lose even more ISK.
New Eden Research, where your research gets done! |
Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:07:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Arushia on 07/05/2009 21:08:11 Step 3: Who the frak fits this? You are never, ever going to sell the built Gravitational Capacitor because its design is fundamentally flawed. Warp capacitor need has not been a problem for cruiser-class ships since Red Moon Rising (2006). A 15% per level warp speed bonus would be highly useful on a Freighter in its long 0.6au/s trip between stargates. On a 3.0 au/s Cruiser it is pointless and unneccessary.
Even if you are foolish enough to build this dren, you hit another problem. The build requirements are the same as the 3 real propulsion subsystems, especially the coveted Interdiction Nullifier.
A Warp Core Stabilizer, a Mircowarpdrive, and a Nanofiber Structure are fundamentally different modules, with different build requirements to reflect that. The propulsion subsystems are just as different, but share the exact same build requirements.
This cripples the "invisible hand" of the market. Material prices cannot fall due to lack of demand, because they are the exact same materials in the exact same quantities needed for high-demand subsystems. The only thing that can fall is the manufacturer's profit margin.
Step 4: You require more vespene gas That's right: resource shortages. Subsystem construction require high quantities of Neurovisual Input Matrix, which is at 6.5m and continually increasing. This practically screams that there is a shortage. Unlike Tritanium, resource harvesters cannot choose to harvest more Neurovisual Input Matrix, and the Random Number God (above) determines when it drops from Sleeper salvage.
Step 5: Solutions 5a: Remove the random output from Reverse Engineering. This is mandatory. Random output was a major issue with Cloak, AF, and Recon invention when it was first introduced. It was fixed. Its intentional re-introduction as part of Reverse Engineering is unforgivable. The developer responsible for this must also spend a month mining Veldspar as penance.
5b1: Remove the need for special Subsystems Engineering datacores. Change subsystem engineering to use relevant empire datacores instead. If they are good enough for hull engineering, then they are good enough for subsystem engineering. Re-purpose the Subsystem Engineering skills, or remove them and giev those who trained them a training speed bonus to compensate.
5b2: If that seems too radical, then increase the drop-rates of Subsystems Engineering datacores. Not slightly. We're talking 10-20x the current droprate here.
5c: Re-design the worthless subsystems. Change the Gravitational Capacitor subsytems to Chassis Optimizations. Boost the bonus given by Fuel Catalysts to 15% or 20% per level.
5d: Diversify subsystem build requirements. This will allow market forces to drive build costs properly.
5e: Introduce Sleeper module drops to their loot tables. These modules would be utterly incompatible with current systems (cannot be fitted), but could be used as base-items to boost the chance of a Reverse Engineering attempt, or re-processed to provide a few units of Sleeper salvage. Market forces will determine which of these is more profitable.
Conclusion I have, hopefully provided a list of everything that is wrong with Tech-3 production. It is understandable that some things come "pre-nerfed". This essay and your reponses will hopefully let CCP know which pre-nerfs to remove.
New Eden Research, where your research gets done! |
Some Advisor
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:28:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Some Advisor on 07/05/2009 21:33:50 step1: do sites, have fun in wh space, throw the loot and stuff into the Pos you have.
when you got something you can do, do reversenginering or make some polymers, or components or all of them (thats what i do)
no buy in cost associated (yesyes "its not free" i know, but since i want sleepertags to sell i can just grab the datacores that lie in the cans, too)
"random output when Inven^h^h^h^hReverse Engineering" yep youre right, but then i remember Invention started that way, too maybe in future tweaks we can "pick" what subsection we want to inve^h^h^h^hRE. so it becomes easier
currently we got 7 of the 9 Polymers (damn you C320 and C540, but i refuse to BUY.. Can that be found in class5, or JUST in class6?) those neurovisual things and the other item that ppl whine about low drop... seems i got plenty of those either. Finishing up some Skills, will be able to start on the subsections pretty soon. the Hulls i got will take a bit longer (damn you starship enginering V)
so in soon time, there will be more supply, and i also believe others are doing the Same.
remember that it takes time to setup,skill and do the "new stuff". T2 took a while, too :P
iam not too unhappy, just need to find some c320 and C540 and then its all there :)
edit: 5e sounds interesting. you mean the stuff liek "collision measurements" "tests reports" effect based stuff?
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Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:34:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Some Advisor
step1:
do sites, have fun in wh space, throw the loot and stuff into the Pos you have.
when you got somethign you can do, do reversenginering or make some polymers, or components or all of them (thats what i do)
no buy in cost associated (yesyes "its not free" i know, but since i want sleepertags to sell i can just grab teh datacores that lie in the cans, too)
Since we've just established that your time is worthless, please give me some of those free datacores. I'll take some free veldspar while your'e at it.
New Eden Research, where your research gets done! |
Some Advisor
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:46:00 -
[5]
i didnt say its worthless.
but you need to "farm" sleepers to get some salvage for the processing to components, and the sleepertags also yield money. so while io do that (lets say ina radar or magnosite), why shoudlnt i open up the cans and grab the stuff aswell
besides, i think the sleepertags might need a small pricedrop, i clearly get too rich :P
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:52:00 -
[6]
Tech 2 was 4-6 times more expensive 2 years ago. So what? Soon we'll have enough of goods on market. and Tech 3 Production will functionate normally. Soon i mean about 4-6 monthes... ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:58:00 -
[7]
I'd like to know:
A: Why the hell everyone keeps whining about it. This is EVE ONLINE, nothing happens fast, get over it. T3 Production is FINE.
B: Where is this 300MIL Price Tag figure coming from?! Last I heard, the best you could hope for was 600Million isk.
--Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Closed
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Arushia
5a: Remove the random output from Reverse Engineering. This is mandatory. Random output was a major issue with Cloak, AF, and Recon invention when it was first introduced. It was fixed. Its intentional re-introduction as part of Reverse Engineering is unforgivable. The developer responsible for this must also spend a month mining Veldspar as penance.
Invent had random output and still T2 have became cheap, even before Cloak, AF and Recons was fixed. So this is not really needed.
Quote:
5b1: Remove the need for special Subsystems Engineering datacores. Change subsystem engineering to use relevant empire datacores instead. If they are good enough for hull engineering, then they are good enough for subsystem engineering. Re-purpose the Subsystem Engineering skills, or remove them and giev those who trained them a training speed bonus to compensate.
5b2: If that seems too radical, then increase the drop-rates of Subsystems Engineering datacores. Not slightly. We're talking 10-20x the current droprate here.
Maybe additional R&D agents? B ut i don't know if it's really needed... Still i think soon there will be enough datacores.
Quote:
5c: Re-design the worthless subsystems. Change the Gravitational Capacitor subsytems to Chassis Optimizations. Boost the bonus given by Fuel Catalysts to 15% or 20% per level.
It's balancing question. Though "worhtless" subsystems, for those who can't afford good subsystems.
Quote:
5d: Diversify subsystem build requirements. This will allow market forces to drive build costs properly.
Wait few monthes and soon many people will have that skills.
Quote:
5e: Introduce Sleeper module drops to their loot tables. These modules would be utterly incompatible with current systems (cannot be fitted), but could be used as base-items to boost the chance of a Reverse Engineering attempt, or re-processed to provide a few units of Sleeper salvage. Market forces will determine which of these is more profitable.
Is it really needed?
Quote:
Conclusion I have, hopefully provided a list of everything that is wrong with Tech-3 production. It is understandable that some things come "pre-nerfed". This essay and your reponses will hopefully let CCP know which pre-nerfs to remove.
I can't see if it's really needed... Lets wait say about half a year and if nothing changes then i'll agree that T3 need changes... ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
IceAero
Amarr Shadow Company
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:12:00 -
[9]
I'm in charge of T3 production for my corp, so I can honestly say that (surprisingly) the OP is 100% correct about the problems.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but I do believe the scale of these issues was entirely unforeseen by CCP.
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:29:00 -
[10]
The problem is not in drop. The problem that there is not enough farmers yet... Invent have played it role totally only after 2 years after implementation. So that's seems totally normal... what did u expected after 2 monthes? 2 monthes is not a time at all, 6-8 monthes maybe but not 2... ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
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Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Trimutius III
Originally by: Arushia
5c: Re-design the worthless subsystems. Change the Gravitational Capacitor subsytems to Chassis Optimizations. Boost the bonus given by Fuel Catalysts to 15% or 20% per level.
It's balancing question. Though "worhtless" subsystems, for those who can't afford good subsystems.
You missed the part where the worthless subsystems use EXACTLY the same materials to build in EXACTLY the same quantities as the good subsystems. Thus there can be no balancing of the production price.
Quote:
5d: Diversify subsystem build requirements. This will allow market forces to drive build costs properly.
Wait few monthes and soon many people will have that skills.
I was referring to the material requirements, not the skills.
New Eden Research, where your research gets done! |
Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Arushia
You missed the part where the worthless subsystems use EXACTLY the same materials to build in EXACTLY the same quantities as the good subsystems. Thus there can be no balancing of the production price.
I didn't missed that. Don't forget that BPC does have a price too, so price of subsystems will be balanced by the price of BPC. If u are lucky u get good BPC if not then not so good BPC. Yes it's connected to Random, but Random makes our life interesting...
Quote:
I was referring to the material requirements, not the skills.
They will be maybe diversified themselves as soon as there will be x10-x50 more farmers in WHs. Just let time pass and soon there will be a POS in almost every Jxxxxxx system... :) ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.05.07 23:54:00 -
[13]
T2 prices dropped alot faster after Invention came in than T3 has already existed. It was a month tops before 500m hulks were half price already.
Random in eve is Evil. We don't WANT random. We don't want to have to jump through 20 different hoops that may or may not catch fire as we jump through them only to get told to "Try again next time!" ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:01:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Trimutius III on 08/05/2009 00:02:01 And i'm still quite sure that problem is not enough farmers in W-space. Just when more people will come there we'll get much cheaper parts much more reliques many datacores and so on... Just give people some time... Number of farmers will grow, and then u'll get ur x10-x20 drop... Not because of drop boost but because there is x10-x20 more people farming... There is very many WH in there, but most of them are not farmed yet... So u need more farmers not a boost of a drop or something like that... (Invent wasn't connected with farmers that hard, so it went into masses faster) ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Elridon
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:02:00 -
[15]
Quote:
They will be maybe diversified themselves as soon as there will be x10-x50 more farmers in WHs. Just let time pass and soon there will be a POS in almost every Jxxxxxx system... :)
That would completely screw over T3 entirely. Having a POS in w-space completely nerfs the spawns of sites; having a POS in w-space makes the number of sigs decrease to almost 0 non-wormholes, and very vew CAs. A POS in nearly every w-system = nearly no resources to build T3 with.
As far as OP's post, I almost completely agree. With regards to Neurovisual Input Matrixes though, I think their current price is an abnormal fluxuation; four or five days ago they were around 3.5m, yesterday they were pushing 7.5m, and today they are down to roughly 6m. Prices on gases are starting to even out, most have stopped going down anyway.
At current prices (using Intact pieces, reacting the polymers yourself, and assuming no failures [I can't correct for this really as I have no idea on proper success rates for RE yet) the price for a T3 cruiser costs 2.52b for a triplet making the production cost per ship around 840m, not including pos fuel costs. This isn't too bad, but if you go for four RE tries per subsystem (possibly hopefully maybe giving you the subsystems you want for all five types if the Random Number God is pleased today) you're looking at 2,286m in RE bits, 1,440m in materials; a 1,242m end cost for the buyer, if no profit was made anywhere.
Vote Captain Pompous for 3rd CSM! |
Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Elridon
That would completely screw over T3 entirely. Having a POS in w-space completely nerfs the spawns of sites; having a POS in w-space makes the number of sigs decrease to almost 0 non-wormholes, and very vew CAs. A POS in nearly every w-system = nearly no resources to build T3 with.
It was a joke about POS...
Many WH that appears in New Eden isn't farmed yet so it's a matter of time... we need x10-x20 more farmers i agree. More farmers mean more drop until there is something to farm... ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
aldarrin
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:09:00 -
[17]
I support the OP's point of view. There should be a bit more predictability to the reverse engineering. Also, $h177y modules / components / subsystems shouldn't be as resource expensive as the really shiny ones.
I especially enjoyed the dripping amount of sarcasm. And the Star Craft reference. Got a good chuckle from that. I further move that people in this forum should endeavor to be this entertaining, regardless of their POV. -- Flame on. |
Turiel Demon
Minmatar Shadow Reapers
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:31:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Turiel Demon on 08/05/2009 00:34:32 Exceptionally well worked out overview of the current situation/problem Arushia, thanks.
My corp produces T3 too, and my CEO who does the actual production is tearing his hair out over the subsystem lottery.
On limited resources: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1063489/page/1#1
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1057565/page/1#1 -> My own thread about NIM units... well, I'm glad I bought a few hundred at 2.5 to 3m that's for sure, they're back up at 7-9m.
On the other hand look at gas: C540 is next to worthless due to overharvesting now; only C320, at a third of its price a week ago is worth harvesting at all at ~100k per unit.
Picture A This shows how complex the production is quite nicely... it's not reached a stage that enough people can do it yet to understand the problems with it... please listen to the people that are trying to do it already everyone, rather than just spout random supply & demand stuff. Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature. |
Some Advisor
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:34:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Some Advisor on 08/05/2009 00:35:49
Originally by: Elridon Having a POS in w-space completely nerfs the spawns of sites; having a POS in w-space makes the number of sigs decrease to almost 0 non-wormholes, and very vew CAs. A POS in nearly every w-system = nearly no resources to build T3 with.
...here we go again...
by now it got (most likely) established that POSes do *NOT* affect Spawn. It surely DOES appear so since "youre always there and dont have lots of sties to work with".
but iam living for some time in "my" System, and stuff *DOES* respawn regulary. Of course it has not as much as when i entered it, but thats because we kileld most stuff off.
416sided dice, clear one "wh-room", have spawn it in another.
*sigh*
edit: one Question, where can c320/540 be found? Class6 only or class5 also? so far i didnt saw it in class3-4
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Shadow Reapers
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:42:00 -
[20]
Though GM's are unreliable, and this is information passed on through a third party, I would like to note that there is indication that POS do affect spawns:
Linky Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature. |
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Elridon
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:55:00 -
[21]
Every time I have been in w-space with a POS in it (generally a class 3 system), even if no one is there for one or two days, and I go in to find an empty system, it does not fill up. Maybe one or two anomalies, a few wormholes, maybe one grav and one ladar site, but that is it.
From what I have seen, C540 clouds can spawn in class 4 space, but c320 clouds are only in c5/6 space.
Vote Captain Pompous for 3rd CSM! |
Turiel Demon
Minmatar Shadow Reapers
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Posted - 2009.05.08 01:05:00 -
[22]
C320 and C540 only spawn in 2 sites:
Vital Core (most common in C5) has 500 C320 and 6000 C540 Instrumental Core (uncommon, almost exclusive to C6) has 500 C540 and 6000 C320.
It's possible that a Vital Core could show up in C4 w-space, but even then it would only have enough C320 for 35 minutes of harvesting by one person. Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature. |
Hexor V
I.M.M
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Posted - 2009.05.08 07:11:00 -
[23]
I'm all for continued discussion on possible fixes to the "problem." Or I'd like CCP to change t3 ships from "Strategic Cruisers" to "Luxury Cruisers." ____
YHBT
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:54:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Arushia
Step 5: Solutions 5a: Remove the random output from Reverse Engineering. This is mandatory. Random output was a major issue with Cloak, AF, and Recon invention when it was first introduced. It was fixed. Its intentional re-introduction as part of Reverse Engineering is unforgivable. The developer responsible for this must also spend a month mining Veldspar as penance.
5b1: Remove the need for special Subsystems Engineering datacores. Change subsystem engineering to use relevant empire datacores instead. If they are good enough for hull engineering, then they are good enough for subsystem engineering. Re-purpose the Subsystem Engineering skills, or remove them and giev those who trained them a training speed bonus to compensate.
5b2: If that seems too radical, then increase the drop-rates of Subsystems Engineering datacores. Not slightly. We're talking 10-20x the current droprate here.
5c: Re-design the worthless subsystems. Change the Gravitational Capacitor subsytems to Chassis Optimizations. Boost the bonus given by Fuel Catalysts to 15% or 20% per level.
5d: Diversify subsystem build requirements. This will allow market forces to drive build costs properly.
5e: Introduce Sleeper module drops to their loot tables. These modules would be utterly incompatible with current systems (cannot be fitted), but could be used as base-items to boost the chance of a Reverse Engineering attempt, or re-processed to provide a few units of Sleeper salvage. Market forces will determine which of these is more profitable.
I thought a little and i agree only with 5a. 5a. Yes i should agree that their must be more decryptors. U should be able to choose not only race but also type of subsystem/hull (i mean that with a little bit reduced chance of success u can choose to have Defensive Subsystem (random) or Offensive Subsystem (random)) I think that this decryptors are needed because sometimes their could be bottlenecks that there is not enough of certain types of subsystems to make a T3 ship at least with "worthless subsystem"...
5b. As i said if their would be more farmers u'll have more datacores beacuse the most of sites still isn't farmed yet, So there could possible be more data cores without boosting of drop...
5c. Totally useless subsybsystems will be boosted when it would be proved that almost nobody buys them, but they would be cheaper then other because of that (don't forget that BPC has it's own cost and if u are unlucky u get bad BPC, and maybe even lose money, i understand why u don't want to lose ur money but it's life)
5d. More farmers will drive market. We'll need boost only if farmers would ask for more wormholes and there would be still not enough material, but i doubt that it would be so...
5e. This would be needed only in case that is desribed by me in a little bit before.
Originally by: Turiel Demon C320 and C540 only spawn in 2 sites:
Vital Core (most common in C5) has 500 C320 and 6000 C540 Instrumental Core (uncommon, almost exclusive to C6) has 500 C540 and 6000 C320.
It's possible that a Vital Core could show up in C4 w-space, but even then it would only have enough C320 for 35 minutes of harvesting by one person.
And with gases i do agree. I said somewhere about this disbalance even before Apocrypha was released. ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:25:00 -
[25]
I just comment on the randomeness part of subsystems.. it's bad and needs to be changed.
If you have a base chance of 30% and the outcome is 3 different subsystems, you have no say in, the chance to get the WANTED subsystem is 10% (30% x 33,3%).
With Apo 1.1 we got a 4th subsystem, so the chance to get the right subsystem will fall to 7,5% (30% x 25%).
When the 5th subsystem gets introduced the chance for the right subsystem falls to 6%.
As ongoing discussions on the industry & science forums and also on MD forums show, we have a large quantity of people who produce the stuff by calculating relevant market costs (which is needed for such a DEEP-production-tree. If all 5 subsystems are wanted, the above doesn't matter, as you can sell them for their "crafting"-costs, with RE-costs for datacores, RAM, decryptors and relicts inclusive. But what happens when for subsystems there is 1 that REALLY sucks? Well, the other build and sold subsystems of that class NEED to make up for it by their sale-price or most of producers wont make them. Lets crunch the numbers for ideal cases (all subsys bpc equaly distributed, no failure streaks) as worst case (10 failures in a row or only bad-bpcs) will kill your wallet anyways:
1 bad module, 4 are wanted.. With 30% RE chance you need at least 3 RE jobs more (overall 5 / 30% = 16,67 jobs) than you would need and get a bpc you cant produce from. So the cost for all other BPC's rise by 20%.
2 bad modules, 3 are wanted.. We need 6 pointless RE jobs, which rises costs for modules built by 40%.
3 bad modules, 2 are wanted.. 60% rise in RE-costs for the built modules..
I REALLY HOPE there are armies of "the sleeper stuff I aquire is free"-people around, as T3 will need them.. badly, when things stay like this.
My proposal would be to rework the faction-decryptors to subsystem-type decryptors. This way CCP stays in control of how much from each they'll spawn, the wh-traveler get the spoils for good decryptor types and the producers can actually avoid bad-bpc and cross-subsidisation as they need to do now.
Forge '07 on Sale
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Hawk Firestorm
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:51:00 -
[26]
TBH the pricing of T2 especially BS ships is completely ridiculous, it precludes their use in the main stream for anything much more than mission running or hanger orniments.
ALL content should be affordable and practical to use THROUGHOUT the game the determining factor being skills and where the individual player is in the game, I'm sorry 1 Bill for a BS with no sensible loss coverage as with T1 ships and other high value content is insane and bad design.
And T3 well 3-4 bill for a Cruiser common!
The market as a whole production to their use needs lookin at for all T1+ ships, the current system has been insane for years.
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Marmios
Elite Aeronautic Developer Syndicate Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 16:02:00 -
[27]
The op is almost 100% correct in my POV. My corp stopped going into WHs cause theres barely a reason to go there. Just too much waste of time for gambling at a POS. Ive bought over 2 billion in relics and more then 75 % failed. Not to mention the datacores. They were all malfunctional. So we should atleast get something out of it.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.08 16:15:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hawk Firestorm TBH the pricing of T2 especially BS ships is completely ridiculous, it precludes their use in the main stream for anything much more than mission running or hanger orniments.
ALL content should be affordable and practical to use THROUGHOUT the game the determining factor being skills and where the individual player is in the game, I'm sorry 1 Bill for a BS with no sensible loss coverage as with T1 ships and other high value content is insane and bad design.
And T3 well 3-4 bill for a Cruiser common!
The market as a whole production to their use needs lookin at for all T1+ ships, the current system has been insane for years.
lols, T2 BS are no more expensive than HACs are relative to their T1 counterparts.
The bolded part is especially hilarious (read: stupid).
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.08 16:18:00 -
[29]
Also.. and here's a thought, but if the lottery/chance nature of T3 production is causing you to lose a lot of money, then perhaps you should
- stop buying raw materials while they're extremely expensive - sell your harvested materials instead of trying to use them yourself
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Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.05.08 18:20:00 -
[30]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Also.. and here's a thought, but if the lottery/chance nature of T3 production is causing you to lose a lot of money, then perhaps you should
- stop buying raw materials while they're extremely expensive - sell your harvested materials instead of trying to use them yourself
That is indeed the conclusion I have reached, and I see several other T3 producers now reaching. This leads me to suspect that T3 prices will either stagnate or rise as fewer people produce them. Eventually, even the freetards will realize that they could be making better profits elsewhere.
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