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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers
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Posted - 2009.05.15 19:08:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Lian Xander Here's the run down. <snip> The wreck created from killing said rat - belongs to no-one. Only the loot inside has ownership - CCP set it up that way, talk to them about it.
We are. CCP Monitors these forums and those of us who feel differently than the (rather obviously biased) Ninja Salvagers are doing so.
CCP has set many things up over the years. That has not stopped them from changing them. "It's the status quo" is a fact, not an argument for keeping it the status quo.
Originally by: Lian Xander You want to make a comparison of a car wreck ... ok, I'll play along. If I take my car and proceed to drive directly into your side, demolishing your car and killing you in the process, does that make the wreck mine .... no. IT'S SALVAGE. See, the wreck would have ownership in EVE, but you killed the owner!! <snip>
No - you killed the owner. Since this is a car wreck (not EVE) you go to jail and the car wreck is property of the slain driver's estate. As the killer you have NO right to it.
Your analogy is worthless, try again.
Quote: It's not broken
I, and many others, disagree. Would you perhaps like to open up a dialogue on WHY it's not broken other than "It's that way now" (which is not an argument for how it should be) or "It's an advantage to how I currently am playing the game" (which is rather biased).
You say it's not broken. Were salvage a very small percentage of the mission income, I would almost certainly agree with you. In the current market, however, it's broken.
By the way - if wrecks don't 'belong' to anyone how do you explain that little message that pops up when you try and tractor beam one that you didn't create?
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Feilamya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.15 19:18:00 -
[62]
Originally by: compairthemeerkat Edited by: compairthemeerkat on 13/05/2009 10:27:30 There is people who do mission's for the bounty and skip salvageing. and There are people who do mission's for the salvage.
If you do missions for the salvage, then you are doing it wrong.
You can not salvage and shoot rats at the same time. So either you get an alt or a friend to do the salvaging while you shoot the rats. This allows you to do twice the number of missions over time and get twice the amount of salvage, thus doubling your profit. And even if you have to split it in two, because you prefer a friend over an alt, it's still better than doing it alone without an alt, because
A) Your salvage can't be "stolen" and B) You have someone to chat with while shooting rats or salvaging wrecks
To cut a long story short: Your way of "doing missions for the salvage" is not as profitable as it could be. You could do better.
Even if you don't have any friends (because nobody likes you, or because you hate everyone) and no alt either, you can still do better:
Salvaging and mission running are two different professions. You can't do both at the same time. You need different skills for them and can't train both at the same time. Trying to do both is like cross-training multiple races. Most of the time you spend in training Amarr will be useless for becoming a decent Caldari pilot. And you can only fly one ship at a time.
So the answer to this problem is: Specialize!
You can specialize in mission running and not care about salvage at all. This will allow you to do more missions over time without wasting time with salvaging. Your standings will rise faster, which means more LP, more ISK, more shiny faction ships with faction stuff.
You can also specialize in salvaging. Then you may also want to salvage other people's missions. If salvaging is what you want to do, why waste training time and ISK for a lvl4-ready battleship while you could make a fortune with only salvaging? Also, if you gather a much larger amount of salvaged stuff, you may think about getting into rig production or at least explore the market for salvaged materials so you can sell at a better price. You will have the time for this, because you are not busy doing missions.
Salvage "thieves" are specialists. That's why they are effective. Missions runners who shoot rats and salvage solo without an alt are like cross-trained combat pilots. They do two multiple different things in a half-assed way. This is why they fail.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.15 19:51:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Lian Xander The wreck created from killing said rat - belongs to no-one. Only the loot inside has ownership - CCP set it up that way, talk to them about it.
This is funny coming from a ninja. Every time someone tries to "talk to CCP about it" the thread gets flamed all to hell by you people.
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silken mouth
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Posted - 2009.05.15 20:00:00 -
[64]
not to mention that flamers and trolls cryed havoc that the stealthbomber would never ever get get covops stealth......
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sweikewa
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Posted - 2009.05.15 20:00:00 -
[65]
CCP won't listen to our conserns. Only thing they do is "ballancing" , nerfing missiles,etc. It's realy annoing when Spider dron webs you form 105km and slows you down to 1/10 of your speed.. Torpedos flying 100+ km no problem it's just dumb npc he doeasn't know the "rules" ... I'm waiting for next big nerf LVL 4 missions ?
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Martineski
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Posted - 2009.05.15 20:06:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Feilamya
Originally by: compairthemeerkat Edited by: compairthemeerkat on 13/05/2009 10:27:30 There is people who do mission's for the bounty and skip salvageing. and There are people who do mission's for the salvage.
If you do missions for the salvage, then you are doing it wrong.
You can not salvage and shoot rats at the same time. So either you get an alt or a friend to do the salvaging while you shoot the rats. This allows you to do twice the number of missions over time and get twice the amount of salvage, thus doubling your profit. And even if you have to split it in two, because you prefer a friend over an alt, it's still better than doing it alone without an alt, because
A) Your salvage can't be "stolen" and B) You have someone to chat with while shooting rats or salvaging wrecks
To cut a long story short: Your way of "doing missions for the salvage" is not as profitable as it could be. You could do better.
Even if you don't have any friends (because nobody likes you, or because you hate everyone) and no alt either, you can still do better:
Salvaging and mission running are two different professions. You can't do both at the same time. You need different skills for them and can't train both at the same time. Trying to do both is like cross-training multiple races. Most of the time you spend in training Amarr will be useless for becoming a decent Caldari pilot. And you can only fly one ship at a time.
So the answer to this problem is: Specialize!
You can specialize in mission running and not care about salvage at all. This will allow you to do more missions over time without wasting time with salvaging. Your standings will rise faster, which means more LP, more ISK, more shiny faction ships with faction stuff.
You can also specialize in salvaging. Then you may also want to salvage other people's missions. If salvaging is what you want to do, why waste training time and ISK for a lvl4-ready battleship while you could make a fortune with only salvaging? Also, if you gather a much larger amount of salvaged stuff, you may think about getting into rig production or at least explore the market for salvaged materials so you can sell at a better price. You will have the time for this, because you are not busy doing missions.
Salvage "thieves" are specialists. That's why they are effective. Missions runners who shoot rats and salvage solo without an alt are like cross-trained combat pilots. They do two multiple different things in a half-assed way. This is why they fail.
you are wrong my friend, salvaging and mission running can be done at the same time, thats why we have Marauder class Battleships. and where the hell do you get the idea that pilots that mission and salvage are "halfassing it", cross training is not a bad thing. it proves that us combat/mission pilots are indeed skilled and can multitask better than the bottom feeders
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Lian Xander
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.05.15 20:23:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Lian Xander on 15/05/2009 20:25:37 The analogy to the car wreck was not "fail". Simply put, it was a comparison to the game mechanics; yes, I would go to jail for committing vehicular homicide in RL - thank you Capt. Obvious. The point (which you failed to see) was that I was referecing someone else's metaphor - not my own. Simply put, the original owner of said pile of junk is no longer alive to claim it, so it becomes refuse - garbage.
Why the message for tractoring restrictions - IDK... again ask CCP. In my opinion, a tractor should work on anything regardless of who owns what (except for ships and all that, don't get stupid). If there is a wreck and I can target and salvage, then I should be able to tractor; HOWEVER, if I take the loot inside then standard game mechanics are enforced.
It is what it is - deal with it and stop crying all the time .... you'll short out your keyboard. ________________________________________________
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers
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Posted - 2009.05.21 16:11:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Jarvis Hellstrom on 21/05/2009 16:11:51
Originally by: Lian Xander Edited by: Lian Xander on 15/05/2009 20:25:37 The analogy to the car wreck was not "fail". Simply put, it was a comparison to the game mechanics; yes, I would go to jail for committing vehicular homicide in RL - thank you Capt. Obvious. The point (which you failed to see) was that I was referecing someone else's metaphor - not my own. Simply put, the original owner of said pile of junk is no longer alive to claim it, so it becomes refuse - garbage.
I guess all those junkyard owners are broke then. Clearly, all they have is 'garbage' which no one would ever pay for. Hmm - wonder why they charge me when I buy parts off wrecks to fix vehicles?
Oh - you mean it HAS value (exactly as the salvageable wrecks in EVE have) so it is, in fact NOT GARBAGE. It's valuable property (quite valuable in the case of many wrecks). And, of course, you ignored the point that even if it WERE garbage, which it is not, it would still be the property of the original owner's estate and stealing it would still be a crime. Junk pickers can be (and have been) arrested now and again for theft.
Even trying to defend that failed analogy just made your argument weaker.
Quote:
Why the message for tractoring restrictions - IDK... again ask CCP. In my opinion, a tractor should work on anything regardless of who owns what (except for ships and all that, don't get stupid). If there is a wreck and I can target and salvage, then I should be able to tractor; HOWEVER, if I take the loot inside then standard game mechanics are enforced.
I'm not asking CCP as I'm not discussing with them. I'm asking you. You made a point about CCP's position. I pointed out an inconsistency in said position and you then ignore it.
If CCP truly and firmly held the opinion you maintain that they do, then you are right, tractoring should work on anything. That would be hugely useful in 0.0 space where the standard is that most ratters don't salvage. Unfortunately it isn't like that which leaves the inconsistency. CCP should either make tractors universal, as you suggest, or make salvaging cause aggro. Alternately, perhaps, introduce some kind of claim system, as has been suggested, but really that would wind up defaulting to #2 above anyway in almost all cases, which would probably make it pointless.
As to crying, I'm not. I keep a suicide ship or three around to deal with ninja salvagers on those rare occasions I care and my drones can blow up wrecks faster than you can get to them most times anyway.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Hariya
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Posted - 2009.05.21 18:56:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: Lear Hepburn IT'S NOT YOUR SALVAGE
Wreck ownership should be completely removed to clarify this easily overlooked fact.
This.
Otherwise... Only idiots get their salvage "stolen" anyways. Stop running missions in a busy hub, stop running them in high sec, or shoot your wrecks when someone approaches them. Stop playing like a complete ****** or you really honestly deserve to lose
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skye orionis
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Posted - 2009.05.21 20:15:00 -
[70]
Originally by: compairthemeerkat
I have 2 50mill sp char's both can use mauraders so even salavageing on a single account would be easy for me.
My guess is you bought those characters, because if you'd been on eve for the 3 years it would have taken to train them you would have known about this non-issue and wouldn't have started flogging this dead horse again.
yes, people should get flagged if they steal salvage, i.e. if you have salvage in a can and they take it out of the can they should get flagged.
If they salvage a wreck it's theirs.
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Arfvedson
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Posted - 2009.05.21 23:35:00 -
[71]
I have figuered out the answer to this a long time ago. If it's an older player (say 1 year+) thats stealing the salvage thats not yours, go fit a super cheap frig or cruiser (depends on what they are in) with a nice lock on time (kestrels work great for us caldari) Suicide them and their pod..
Their clone will cost more than they would have got from the salvage that you dont own anyway. If it's a younger player, I dont typically salvage anyway and they can have it. Alot of the times I just ask that they drag it into a pile for me and they can follow me :p
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OC 2av2
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Posted - 2009.05.22 00:05:00 -
[72]
Phewà
Actually, I really understand how you do feel. I was in the same situation yesterday. That was awful. I was salvaging and in the dead space PVP player appeared, locked me and started shooting. WTF???
And now I: ôStill alive, but barely breathingàö
But you see, I really enjoyed by reading this thread.
Some ppl was like annoying kids and keep being like that, some of them was like annoying kids, but after understanding your problem became really friendly by explaining all things quite correct, some ppl without doubts friendly told you: öIf you salvaging and have such problems, then you do it in the wrong wayà.ö
Personally, for me, this thread and posts in it gave some extra knowledge about EVE, so now I am going to use my brain to make my salvaging more profitable and more secure.
About timer.
It could be add and could be not. It really doesnÆt mater. You see, if you put timer on wrecks û nothing changes. Salvaging ninjas will salvage your wrecks anyway. Just you suggesting for them make that salvaging easier. Because if timer pass ninja going to do same, but now without any risk. As I understood from your very first post, you want absolutely an opposite effect. IsnÆt it?
All those talks about who is an owner of wreck for me seems like nobody perfect and EVE has things which must be corrected (when you cannot shoot somebody wreck, but can salvage it is really weird)
So just, play the game and enjoy the freedom of the game and just the freedom itself. I feel you need it as I do. Do in this game what you like most and if you getting any troubles use your intelligence to solve it in case to enjoy by doing what do you want.
Take care
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Cain m
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.05.22 00:16:00 -
[73]
NOT YOUR SALVAGE
[/thread]
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Technomagez
Gallente teeny tiny space pirates
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Posted - 2009.05.22 00:37:00 -
[74]
To be honest, I think that Salvaging the wrecks of the ships that someone else took out is a very legitamite part of the game. It should remain as it is.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.05.22 00:38:00 -
[75]
Originally by: compairthemeerkat
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 14/05/2009 12:49:40
Originally by: compairthemeerkat So. I can easily get my probe ship and do the same. but it would be ruining eve.
I have said numerous times to post in a mature manor. Eve has enuff douchebag's and it seems most of them also post on the forum's... Posting insults or flameing will put you in this catagorie.
What... so they aren't allowed to insult you but it's ok for you to insult them? You don't think calling players douchebag's is insulting?
In answer to OP... this is working as intended. Salvage does not belong to anyone.
One massive point that the OP has overlooked... did you note how you said that "not everyone" can fly a ship which can fight AND salvage at the same time. You need to consider the fact that missions also benefit from greater SP. It's perfectly appropriate that someone well trained will be able to maximize benefits in ways that someone not well trained will be able to. Part of what makes eve a good thing is that we're not all just dumped into our own epic hero status. What you have, you have to work for, and thus it feels more valuable.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 05:50:00 -
[76]
Again, the only reason to be in someone else's mission is to cause trouble.
If you activate a mission acceleration gate, and aren't in the mission owner's fleet or corp, you get flagged.
More pvp in high sec.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.05.22 05:52:00 -
[77]
Quote: If you activate a mission acceleration gate, and aren't in the mission owner's fleet or corp, you get flagged.
More pvp in high sec.
I don't think any of us have a problem with that as long as you are flagged to us as well.
Otherwise you're just greedy and want to be able to pick off newbies while staying perfectly safe from anyone who might pose a threat to you.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 06:00:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 22/05/2009 06:02:54 No, I want the option to pick off anyone dumb enough to barge into my battlefield.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.22 06:12:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 22/05/2009 06:02:54 No, I want the option to pick off anyone dumb enough to barge into my battlefield.
It's only your battlefield if you can fight for it and keep it, same as anything. Man up, wet pants, and fight for your stuff
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 06:17:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 22/05/2009 06:17:42 Yeah, and I can live with that. Right now you can't even fight for your battlefield.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.05.22 07:49:00 -
[81]
Entering a deadspace is not illegal. Salvaging wrecks is not illegal.
Why should you get flagged for doing legal things???
And yes, the salvage is INTENDED for everyone so stop whining for more mission reward, lvl 4 give too much ISK already because of lacking ninja salvagers outside of mission hubs.
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Bonny Lee
Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.22 08:18:00 -
[82]
Originally by: compairthemeerkat
The idea of eve is to make it a fair and a well balanced game.
This is why you are wrong. You dont understand what EvE stands for. Well balanced. Ok they work on it. Fair? Never intended.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 08:44:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Entering a deadspace is not illegal. Salvaging wrecks is not illegal.
Why should you get flagged for doing legal things???
The question isn't wether or not entering someone else's mission is legal or not. The question is whether or not it should be. In game laws are probably the easiest change to make. They certainly aren't written in stone anywhere.
You said it yourself: Originally by: Robert Caldera Everything is a subject for change some day.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.05.22 08:47:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/05/2009 08:49:08 so what?? You've waited for an opportunity to quote me here?
There is still no reason for changing mentioned things.
MR gives too much ISK because of lacking ninja salvagers. Entering mission deadspaces does not hurt anyone.
They arent your rats there and I dont know any reason they should be.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 09:06:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/05/2009 08:49:08 so what?? You've waited for an opportunity to quote me here?
There is still no reason for changing mentioned things.
MR gives too much ISK because of lacking ninja salvagers. Entering mission deadspaces does not hurt anyone.
They arent your rats there and I dont know any reason they should be.
You can say rats and wrecks aren't owned by anyone, and as the rules stand, you're correct. Missions on the other hand most certainly are owned by the player that accepts them.
The only reason to be in someone else's mission is to cause problems for that person. Theft is punishable by law, why isn't harrasment?
What proof do you have that missions give out too much cash? CCP already lowered bounties and mission payouts to reduce direct ISK injection into the economy. At the same time they added wrecks and salvage. Seems they think high sec income is balanced.
Show me where CCP intends "ninja slavaging" to balance the economy further. If there was really a problem they'd just fix it themselves.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.05.22 09:29:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/05/2009 09:35:58
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
You can say rats and wrecks aren't owned by anyone, and as the rules stand, you're correct. Missions on the other hand most certainly are owned by the player that accepts them.
says who?? Technical reasons arent enough argument for gameplay issues. From the gameplay view there is a conflict somewhere where players get involved in (for whatever reason).
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
The only reason to be in someone else's mission is to cause problems for that person. Theft is punishable by law, why isn't harrasment?
well, there are many situations in eve where players are somewhere only with for purpose of "making trouble". This is eve is built for, the ways someone is able to produce problems for other people are completely covered by game rules, which you have to discuss particularly instead of requesting prohibition of something because of general "trouble".
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
What proof do you have that missions give out too much cash? CCP already lowered bounties and mission payouts to reduce direct ISK injection into the economy. At the same time they added wrecks and salvage. Seems they think high sec income is balanced.
Show me where CCP intends "ninja slavaging" to balance the economy further. If there was really a problem they'd just fix it themselves.
No proof since "too much" is not defined, just an opinion like "ninja salvager should get flagged". You say the addition of wrecks and salvage is related to the bounty reduction? Who says the salvage was intended as a compensation for reduced payouts?? The fact it is accessible for anyone indicates the opposite.
I've never stated ninja salvagers are intended for balancing somewhat and you have no proof people salvaging other peoples stuff werent considered by CCP as well while introducing these 2 things.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:04:00 -
[87]
We covered this back one page.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass As far as salvage not being meant as extra income, BS. CCP lowered the cash paid out in bounties around the same time they added salvage.
---------------- Reported by CCP Oveur | 2007.03.19 18:46:07 "You're taking away our ISK! We don't make that much ISK!
Understandably percieved so based on the listing in the last blog so let's clarify that also. Direct ISK into your wallet as bounty from NPCs are not the way we reward you for the high level agent missions.
You can still make (tons) of ISK, but it's in the form of materials, tools, ship loot drop, salvaging, technology (hacking). You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players.
The only difference is that we're not creating ISK out of thin air from CONCORD (Infusion) but rather giving you perishable items (Sink) which other players pay you for." -----------------
Also
--------------- Reported by CCP Oveur | 2006.09.26 12:58:59 "We also wanted to improve loot in general, so we finally went ahead and exchanged that pristine can that drops for a proper wrecked ship. That shipwreck is now salvage-able, where you will find scraps of components required to create Rigs, the new ship upgrades which currently have a heavy defensive focus." --------------
People making too much cash in high sec is an alt problem, not a mission problem. CCP has full access to income figures, you don't. Let them police rewards. Yer just trying to justify griefing people.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:09:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Robert Caldera I've never stated ninja salvagers are intended for balancing somewhat and you have no proof people salvaging other peoples stuff werent considered by CCP as well while introducing these 2 things.
Originally by: Robert Caldera MR gives too much ISK because of lacking ninja salvagers.
O rly? You sir are a liar.
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Lear Hepburn
Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:12:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 22/05/2009 10:14:23
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 22/05/2009 10:10:46
Originally by: Robert Caldera Who says the salvage was intended as a compensation for reduced payouts??
We covered this back one page.
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass As far as salvage not being meant as extra income, BS. CCP lowered the cash paid out in bounties around the same time they added salvage.
---------------- Reported by CCP Oveur | 2007.03.19 18:46:07 "You're taking away our ISK! We don't make that much ISK!
Understandably percieved so based on the listing in the last blog so let's clarify that also. Direct ISK into your wallet as bounty from NPCs are not the way we reward you for the high level agent missions.
You can still make (tons) of ISK, but it's in the form of materials, tools, ship loot drop, salvaging, technology (hacking). You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players.
The only difference is that we're not creating ISK out of thin air from CONCORD (Infusion) but rather giving you perishable items (Sink) which other players pay you for." -----------------
Also
--------------- Reported by CCP Oveur | 2006.09.26 12:58:59 "We also wanted to improve loot in general, so we finally went ahead and exchanged that pristine can that drops for a proper wrecked ship. That shipwreck is now salvage-able, where you will find scraps of components required to create Rigs, the new ship upgrades which currently have a heavy defensive focus." --------------
People making too much cash in high sec is an alt problem, not a mission problem. CCP has full access to income figures, you don't. Let them police rewards. Yer just trying to justify griefing people.
We did. Nobody agreed with you, I showed you contradiction and you did not respond. It's one page back, like you said.
See also here for an argument you also failed to respond to on the subject.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.05.22 10:16:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/05/2009 09:35:58
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
You can say rats and wrecks aren't owned by anyone, and as the rules stand, you're correct. Missions on the other hand most certainly are owned by the player that accepts them.
says who??
Can you access a mission before the mission owner warps to it? Can you turn the mission in. Can you turn in down, or cancel it? Can you interact with the agent in any way on behalf of the mission owner?
Nope. All you can do is scan down the owner when he's in the mission. Missions are owned by the player that accepted the contract. The only reason for you to be in his mission uninvited is to harrass him. This should be flaggable.
I've already suggested a mechanic to allow you access to the wrecks after he's finished with the mission.
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