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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2009.05.13 20:40:00 -
[121]
I believe the written text for the individual patch notes needs to be written a bit more clearly.
"If a ship cloaks, all active modules that modify attributes, such as ECM, will stop immediately and the icons showing the effect will disappear."
It specifically names ECM, as several in this thread have noted ECM is the reason for the change, but it doesn't name anything else. While I'm not asking for an acronym for every module that affects attributes, naming the major players could have helped, especially MWD which seems like an indirect change more than anything else. Also, I've read the patch notes and I don't see it written anywhere about the 3-second delay after uncloaking before you can switch on the MWD. I might have missed it though. Was this data retrieved from TQ?
Hopefully CCP or other players can clear this up.
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FlyinS
Caldari Planetary Industry and Trade Organization
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Posted - 2009.05.13 20:40:00 -
[122]
Originally by: 21 Salvager
Originally by: FlyinS Where are these patch notes? I looked through Dev forum but maybe I'm just blind?
Test Patch Notes (when available) are: EVE Download->EVE Patches->Singularity (Test)->Windows OS->(view patch notes) link near bottom. Here's the resulting link: http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp
Thank you sir or ma'am
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Zostera
Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.13 20:46:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Zostera on 13/05/2009 20:46:20
Originally by: Feilamya
After this patch, suicide alts in noobships will be the new scouts.
Who is gonna scout our trial account noob alt scouts out to 0.0 to scout for us?
Zos
Vote Mazz 09 CSM |
Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2009.05.13 20:49:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Mazzarins Demise I believe the written text for the individual patch notes needs to be written a bit more clearly.
"If a ship cloaks, all active modules that modify attributes, such as ECM, will stop immediately and the icons showing the effect will disappear."
It specifically names ECM, as several in this thread have noted ECM is the reason for the change, but it doesn't name anything else. While I'm not asking for an acronym for every module that affects attributes, naming the major players could have helped, especially MWD which seems like an indirect change more than anything else. Also, I've read the patch notes and I don't see it written anywhere about the 3-second delay after uncloaking before you can switch on the MWD. I might have missed it though. Was this data retrieved from TQ?
Hopefully CCP or other players can clear this up.
Well, the patch notes are pretty clear to me. "all active modules that modify attributes". MWDs modify attributes and are included. ECM is just used as an example, and is no doubt what started it all off. But both the MWD and the 3 second delay have been reported by many to be on Sisi. So, Sisi together with the patch notes, if previous experience counts for anything, means it'll be on TQ tomorrow. The whining will be epic. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2009.05.13 20:50:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Well, the patch notes are pretty clear to me. "all active modules that modify attributes". MWDs modify attributes and are included. ECM is just used as an example, and is no doubt what started it all off. But both the MWD and the 3 second delay have been reported by many to be on Sisi. So, Sisi together with the patch notes, if previous experience counts for anything, means it'll be on TQ tomorrow. The whining will be epic.
Will just have to wait and see then, thanks for the response.
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2009.05.13 20:51:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Zostera Edited by: Zostera on 13/05/2009 20:46:20
Originally by: Feilamya
After this patch, suicide alts in noobships will be the new scouts.
Who is gonna scout our trial account noob alt scouts out to 0.0 to scout for us?
Well, someone claimed to have a creative way of solving that conundrum, but he turned out to be a moron ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Hyperforce99
Gallente Infinite Covenant United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.13 20:55:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Anubis Xian You should apply for a new job, I hear Dense Veldspar is hiring.
àand you should answer the questions I posted earlier to explain how you expect to coast once these changes go through.
Well, my Cheetah can hit nearly 5.2km/s with no problem.
What is your cov ops packin? Water weight?
It seems someone can't keep his mount shut and MUST comment every other post on how stupid people are I'm sure your enjoying your daily "troll" out. But while you are making sneering remarks at other people were trying to post our concerns.
What we are seeing is the removal of a game mechanic thats been in place for a long time. The ability for covert ops ships to survive bubble camps.
What keeps a covert ops alive: Speed and stealth. The ability to leave the area when detected quickly before action can be taken, and the ability to stay unnoticed are its main functions. Lets face it, a covert ops is no match in stand up combat. Even against Tech 1 frigates they won't be at any advantage.
Thus, if they are locked by anything stronger than a frigate, they are dead.
When a ship enters a system covert ops can warp away nearly instantly. theres hardly any time in between decloak and warp and thus covert ops ships are designed to be hard to catch. There is no mistake in that.
Now the only moment a covert ops is in trouble when it can't go to warp right away. And as stated above you don't want to end up locked either. Thus the alternative is to cloak right away.
But simply cloaking when you appear of of a gate inside a bubble isn't effective by any means. Any gatecamp will have people scanning the overview for ships that uncloak, speed to them and hit them.
Since unboosted covert-ops have trouble getting out of the way fast enough thats where the micro warp drive comes in.
microwarp drives and afterburners increase velocity over time untill they reach maximum velocity. However, depending on a ships agility this can take from a few seconds to even half a minute. Simply turning on a microwarp drive for a second and then disableing its effect is useless. as the module will have had no time to increase the ships speed by much. Riding out any residual boost is neutralised as there was no residual boost to begin with.
Staying uncloaked for longer to build up more speed is suicide as any covert ops pilot knows. And before this patch you didn't have to...
But now this is reality, or at least... soon to be reality.
Being unable to speed up means all you do it hide your ship and hope you can burn away before the opponent can hit you with his interceptors or drones. Burning away wasn't allways effective, and I have died several times even with a good uncloak, WMD, cloak combo
But its the only way to survive a gatecamp.
So, CCP, either make covert ops specialised ships immume to warp disruption bubbles. Or give us back our ability to use ride out our MWD's during a cloak. Cause the only ship that can withstand warp disruption bubbles now is a T3 ship... and those arn't even working right yet --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/ |
Herzog Wolfhammer
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Posted - 2009.05.13 20:58:00 -
[128]
If noob alts become the new scouts, then collect up those frozen corpses.
I also wonder if a day will come when there will be "living" ships (like those bug ships from the LEXX Series) and they might use biomass for food. So stock up.
And send the female ones me in Villore.
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Anvalor
Gallente Germania Inc. D0GMA
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Posted - 2009.05.13 20:58:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Originally by: Anubis Xian Do you people even know the definition of the word 'coast' in this context?
The MWD being on means you aren't coasting.
So you can either mwd back to the gate at full speed, whatever that is. Or hit the mwd, and then cloak and coast the rest of the way.
I don't see the problem here, and if you pull the Ace Card out of your collective ASSES you might realize you don't have to run back to the gate once you cloak. Ever heard of faking out an enemy?
Yeah, Jove forbid the average pilot in EvE can think outside the fotm strategy guide.
You lot fly your little noob alts.
I just realised, this must be the other alt of Anvalor. There is no way that two separate people this obtuse can populate this very thread at once!
At any rate, no, it doesn't work like that, you're stupid. Now go away ...
Come on, you can do better than that. I do not need to hide behind my alt or use several chars to force my opinion on others. You have to live with the fact that i am not the only ******* here i think.
I am not trying to convince anyone here. I just wanted to state that i like the changes and i have done that. No reason to convince people who have other opinions. And if CCP decides in the last minute not to implement these changes then i wont cry like others do. I just continue playing the game becasue i still liek it after all those years.
Chill out a bit
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Misanth
The Glenn Quagmire Finishing School for Young Ladies Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.13 21:19:00 -
[130]
Originally by: rValdez5987 You people whine to much.
Either play the game or unsub.
..something like this.
While the mwd/cloak trick fix is annoying, and the 3sec of no mwd after decloak (if it's working that way) is taking the ****.. the agility nerf is actually a boost to small scale pvp instead.
The agility buff last autumn was making it quite hard to tackle things at your size or below, finally it might be balancing that issue, we'll see. It should help to tackle ratters at least. Was a bit annoying when my recon ship with cloaking 5 and a targeting-after-decloak rig couldnt get a lock on a battlecruiser before it warped off (non-aligned).
Either case, I agree with rValdez. Things change in EVE all the time. It's evolving. Some things annoy some guys, others don't, cycle of life, yada yada. We'll live through it and adapt. At least those of us who enjoy EVE.
Should just point out one of my chars is a dedicated recon pilot, working on all four races recons with all e-war and relevant skills at lv5, including probing and leadership. That means I have more whining rights than others? Tbh I like the agility changes more than I am annoyed by the cloak/mwd fixes.. And I doubt I'll close any of my accounts soon. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
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CHAOS100
Widowmakers
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Posted - 2009.05.13 21:27:00 -
[131]
Wow, good one CCP you know how to kill off solo and small pvp very efficiently.
Random ccp employee: WTF my raven cant lock these jerks jumping into our 40 man gate camp what is this? We should be able to kill anything that jumps in! You should have to bring 100 people to beat our camp, this is no fair.
I guess gate camps are the preferred way to kill things now. Fun fun fun. --------------
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Faife
Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.13 21:29:00 -
[132]
this is great, i look forward to killing all you "ooo, i cant die cause i'm in a vaga lolololol" guys next --
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El Kaposo
Amarr Simtech Industrial Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.13 21:34:00 -
[133]
i second the changes...
i mean, you got your huge region gates, lots of ships have been modified to warp cloaked (transports, bombers...)
it justs means, you have to adjust and adapt. such as getting higher base speed and agility.
btw, the new scouts are t3 cruisers, who are not affected by bubbles
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2009.05.13 21:42:00 -
[134]
Originally by: El Kaposo it justs means, you have to adjust and adapt. such as getting higher base speed and agility.
Of course, but the issue here is what those adaptations will lead to. The logical adaptation to the cloak changes is to abandon using covert ops and recon ships as 0.0 scouts and use throwaway newbie alts in shuttles. The logical adaptation to not being able to hit the return gate in a cruiser etc due to the 3-second mwd issue is to camp gates and wait for the enemy to come to you rather than use hit-and-run tactics in a roaming gang. Should these things happen, the effects will be more negative to gameplay than positive and it's that which is an issue. It's not about people not wanting to adapt, it's about the logical adaptations making the game less fun and being a big step backward.
Admittedly, the actual changes haven't hit yet so we don't know the extent of their effects. It's entirely possible that covert ops ships will be able to hit the return gate over 90% of the time, for example, and in that case there's nothing really wrong. But as we're speculating and we're on a forum, we have to assume the sky is falling. It's the law!
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Kuar Z'thain
Fraser's Finest
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Posted - 2009.05.13 21:57:00 -
[135]
Originally by: El Kaposo i second the changes...
i mean, you got your huge region gates, lots of ships have been modified to warp cloaked (transports, bombers...)
it justs means, you have to adjust and adapt. such as getting higher base speed and agility.
btw, the new scouts are t3 cruisers, who are not affected by bubbles
Ah, I see that you don't use 0.0, as most camps have moved off the region gates into choke points one or two jump in.
If this nerf is what CCP intended then they are only interested in us playing the numbers/blob game.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:00:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 13/05/2009 20:25:21
Originally by: Anubis Xian Even in an interceptor, you would be back to the gate before you hit the top speed.
No you wouldn't. We're discussing the change hitting TQ tomorrow which may include a three second delay on activating your mwd after decloaking post-jump. So you're on normal thrusters for 3 seconds when reapproaching the gate, which is long enough for any camp to get a short range scram and a web or two on you.
Are we reading the same patch notes? Because I don't see that anywhere.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:11:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Anubis Xian Are we reading the same patch notes? Because I don't see that anywhere.
Are we reading the same thread? That particular feature is on the test server as part of the cloaking change listed in the patch notes. We've been talking about that since page two or three and it's the main complaint in the thread. I'd say about a quarter of the posts in this thread have been trying to drill that very concept into your head. Are you deliberately being obtuse or have you just been skimming the posts? I ask because both are a distinct possibility.
Whether that change is part of the patch tomorrow or not isn't known, but it's likely that it will be. We can hope that it isn't, but until then we have to construct what-if scenarios to demonstrate its theoretical effects on gameplay.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:15:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Anubis Xian Are we reading the same patch notes? Because I don't see that anywhere.
Are we reading the same thread? That particular feature is on the test server as part of the cloaking change listed in the patch notes. We've been talking about that since page two or three and it's the main complaint in the thread. I'd say about a quarter of the posts in this thread have been trying to drill that very concept into your head. Are you deliberately being obtuse or have you just been skimming the posts? I ask because both are a distinct possibility.
Whether that change is part of the patch tomorrow or not isn't known, but it's likely that it will be. We can hope that it isn't, but until then we have to construct what-if scenarios to demonstrate its theoretical effects on gameplay.
Unlike apparently everyone else, I don't just take the words of a random nobody to heart. I see nothing about a 3 second delay in the patch notes. Have you gone on the test server to verify or are just yelling the sky is falling without looking up to see?
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Carnelian X
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:27:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Carnelian X on 13/05/2009 23:30:27 Edited by: Carnelian X on 13/05/2009 23:27:34 the three second delay does not exist
the "three second" thing came from someone pointing out from the test server that the cloak mwd warp trick now only takes three seconds instead of ten
It used to take ten as you would have to wait for the module to run its course. Now hitting cloak turns it off - enabling you to immediatly uncloak and warp. In about three seconds.
from personal experience - the test server build 2 days ago did not have any delay. They may have put it in since i guess.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:38:00 -
[140]
The "3 second mwd can't activate when declaoking" is by far the most successful troll I've seen this year. Bravo whoever started it, bravo.
MWD cloak trick *should* work for cov-ops cloaks only, but all in all it is nothing to get too upset over. According to the OP, it looks like it will be far easier to kill razor cloaking noobs post patch. Not sure where any major 0.0 alliance gets off complaining about blobs.
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:52:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Myra2007 on 13/05/2009 23:53:43 I've just been on sisi (as in 5 minutes before) and there is no 3 seconds delay for mwd after decloak (be it gate or cov ops cloak).
Test it yourself though you may have to get the patch from chrukers site. If its not on sisi now (and it is not), not in the patchnotes then i don't expect it to hit tq.
edit: meh i am slow :( --
Originally by: Jasper Dark
I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2009.05.14 00:25:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Vaal Erit The "3 second mwd can't activate when declaoking" is by far the most successful troll I've seen this year. Bravo whoever started it, bravo.
If that's not actually the case on Sisi, I stand majorly corrected. I just assumed the two people talking about it weren't making it up and have apparantly wasted the majority of the day arguing flawed points. Bravo.
The issue still exists for covops and recon ships but, as I initially posed on page 1 before the 3-second mwd stuff started, it's not that major a deal. The only big issue is that covops might be more at risk when trying to get out of bubbles and they'll have difficulty getting back to the gate if the camp is in any way large and competant. It could be a nerf to covops or it could be that they can still be fine 90% of the time. We'll find out after the patch.
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Karn Mithralia
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.14 00:39:00 -
[143]
Well the proof will be in the pudding as they say.
However if speculation is correct (not teh 3 sec delay bit, just the mwd/cloak bit) its a serious solo/small gang in heavily defended 0.0 space nerf.
That is not good for game balance it will only encourage blob warfare and the use of alt-scouts.
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Dratic
Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.14 01:18:00 -
[144]
i love how ccp tried to disguise it as just a fix to falcon's jamming after being cloaked. Sometimes i think they think people won't notice stuff like this. Well it is how people play the game. Do they? or are they the ones staring at a bubble too long waiting for something to kill. Solo PVP and small gang pvp suffers enough for all the blobs that are around. Players try to be creative in their use of ships and tactics and this happens. Give small gang pvp a chance, epic fleet battles aren't what you're gonna get with this crap.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar OVERLOAD. Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.05.14 02:39:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Karn Mithralia
It will nerf solo pvp.
You just got a wrong idea about solo pvp in the first place. This is gonna make Ospreys trying to mine lowsec easier to kill, what more solo pvp could you possibly need?
Oh yea, occasional "fights" against those pesky Caracals, thats gonna be easier too
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JD Barrett
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.14 04:36:00 -
[146]
Edited by: JD Barrett on 14/05/2009 04:44:53 edit: re-read it it also states
Ships "When a Falcon cloaks and is jamming a ship, the icon showing that ECM is in progress and the jamming effect will be removed immediately. Additionally, CONCORD has declared all ôBECAUSE OF FALCONö jokes passT."
Modules "If a ship cloaks, all active modules that modify attributes, such as ECM, will stop immediately and the icons showing the effect will disappear."
and then again in Weapons & Ammunition "Cloaking a Falcon while there is a jamming cycle in progress and the jammer has been deactivated will now result in an immediate break of the jam cycle on the targeted ship. To clarify: if you start a 20 second jamming cycle on a ship, then deactivate the jamming module and cloak, the jam cycle on the target will immediately cease. "
there, they changed it in 1.2 we all happy now :P very good read though for sure had lots of laughs..
although it would seem to me that they put it in 3 places to state its ment for falcon only but yes there should be some clearification made to the EXACT operation of this "instant termination"
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motomysz
No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.14 04:50:00 -
[147]
Edited by: motomysz on 14/05/2009 04:51:29
Originally by: Nyphur Covert ops ships make great scouts because they can go ahead and will be fine no matter what they encounter.
Originally by: Nyphur fine no matter what they encounter.
Originally by: Nyphur no matter what
You think that's the way it ought to be?
Edit - moot point now, but still.
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Fennicus
Amarr United Trade Coalition
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Posted - 2009.05.14 12:19:00 -
[148]
This change is a stealthy way to make you invest in T3 cruisers and the special anti-bubble module, and then to cut down on whinging about how "unprofitable" WH space is.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.05.14 12:22:00 -
[149]
An un-needed nerf to cloaking.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Poreuomai
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.14 12:41:00 -
[150]
As someone who flies cheetahs a lot I can only say that this change is a real kick in the nuts.
Originally by: Mazzarins Demise "If a ship cloaks, all active modules that modify attributes, such as ECM, will stop immediately and the icons showing the effect will disappear."
Hm ... cloak affects the ship's speed ... so the cloak disables itself?
Let My People Go |
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