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Drakan290
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Posted - 2009.05.13 22:49:00 -
[1]
So, members of my corp have been running lots of high sec combat plexes with me (Serpentis Phi Outposts, Serpentis Vigil's) and as a result, split 4 ways, the Vigilant BPC, Shadow railgun batteries, Corelum C-Type modules, etc, have given them over 200m ISK to spend on new stuff.
They all have around 1-1.5m SP and are currently flying pretty well spec'd Battlecruisers.
We've just moved into the Solitude region to run missions and do more plexes, as it's relatively uninhabited because of the 0.0 or long lowsec route to get in... We found a nice little WH 2 jumps from our old home system and made it through pretty quick..
In any case. With all the extra money they've been getting, my friends are attempting to skill up to battleships.
I have 12m SP and I rarely feel like a battleship is a good ship, not to mention they aren't allowed in the current 4/10 DED plexes (Phi Outposts) we've been mostly running.
I think currently, cruisers and battlecruisers are the best bet for them, until they can get their support skills up (Engineering, Electronics, Mechanic, Hull Upgrades, Shield Upgrades, etc), because they have like two skills at level 5, none of them support.
They can't use T2 light guns at all. Engineering/Electronics/Mechanic, etc aren't above level 3 becuase 'it takes too much time'..
I need some help from the community. What do I tell them to stop wasting their money training frivolous battleship skills, when they won't be able to fit them out properly at all?
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Benzaiten Reverse
Caldari
Shokei
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:09:00 -
[2]
Skilling up for BS is not wasting money, you will anyway need to do it if want to fly them and skills are not that expensive.
What i found more problematic is to explain someone new in EVE that BC is easier to fly and more efficient in missions unless their tanking and weapons skills are mostly maxed.
With 12m SP you should already be better with BS if fighting more BS sized ships, for deadspaces with mostly small ships BC is better
Engineering/Electronics/Mechanic have many skills that are essential for any ship without them its hard to fly and fit them and when thinking about them as 'it takes too much time' it makes me just  .
anything taking not more them 14 days i already consider quick as i already have some 60+ days skills closing to me 
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Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:42:00 -
[3]
9M sp here. Tried BS and didnt like them hehe.
I like better to fly an enthusiast fitted Drake.
Tell them skills are more important than ship size. Usually, a big ship with crappy skills is blown by a smaller ship whose pilot got higher skills (both ingame and real life)
Tell them that when they lose the battleship they will feel so miserable (waste of isk)
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Drakan290
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:45:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ms Delerium
Tell them skills are more important than ship size. Usually, a big ship with crappy skills is blown by a smaller ship whose pilot got higher skills (both ingame and real life)
Tell them that when they lose the battleship they will feel so miserable (waste of isk)
Tried both of those TBH... Since they're making a lot of money however, to them it feels like 'all in a days work' :\
I've gotten their BCs to 1/2 structure in an AF, and they still won't believe me that skills > ships.
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Mickey Simon
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:51:00 -
[5]
I've got 20M SP and don't fly a BS regularly.
Your best bet at showing your friends that they are nowhere near ready for a battleship is taking an assault frigate or hac and beating the crap out of them in their new battleship. Hopefully they'll get the idea and sell it before they lose it.
Training for them is certainly not a bad idea, but getting in them with a meager 2M SP? You just wont have the support skills you need to make most battleships really shine unfortunately.
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FOl2TY8
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.05.14 00:03:00 -
[6]
Take them into lo-sec with their brand new BS's. They will learn quickly.
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This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve |
Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.14 00:03:00 -
[7]
42M sp here (I'd post with my main but I still got 3 months on my forum ban), while I love BS (especially the maelstrom) I mainly stick to BC and smaller
Pomp FTW!!! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.14 00:05:00 -
[8]
Almost 53 mil SP and while I do have almost decent BS skills, I seldom fly any of them.
BCs and CSs is what I like most when it comes to firepower, and T2 frigates (plus a few select cruisers) for utility.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Arkeladin
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Posted - 2009.05.14 00:49:00 -
[9]
Best advice for you:
Don't bother trying to "convince" them. They won't believe you until they try it and get bit.
As Samuel Clemens once wrote:
"A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still".
All you do in the attempt is create enmity.
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Micia
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.14 02:50:00 -
[10]
Step 1) Inform them that it's not a smart idea to be zipping around in Battleships with no support skills.
Step 1 has been completed
Step 2) If they insist on flying Battleships, let them.
Step 3) When they die horribly, don't rub it in.
Step 4) Hopefully, they are wiser for it.
You can give them all the advice in the galaxy - it's up to them to take it, or not.
_______
Should we fall before the dawn,
Say this at our pyre,
"They died Matari warriors,
Their faces to the fire." |
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.05.14 03:02:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Drakan290
I've gotten their BCs to 1/2 structure in an AF, and they still won't believe me that skills > ships.
you need to go lower 
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Renarla
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Posted - 2009.05.14 03:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Drakan290
high sec combat plexes
Originally by: Drakan290
Vigilant BPC, Shadow railgun batteries, Corelum C-Type modules
wat
However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs. |
Drakan290
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Posted - 2009.05.14 04:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Renarla
Originally by: Drakan290
high sec combat plexes
Originally by: Drakan290
Vigilant BPC, Shadow railgun batteries, Corelum C-Type modules
wat
Serpentis Vigil and Serpentis Phi Outpost final bosses (Cruiser for the Vigil, BS for the Outpost) dropped those.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2009.05.14 12:54:00 -
[14]
Some people need to learn the hard way. You've made your case and they didn't listen. All you can do now is wait to say
"told you so ****head."
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Tranka Verrane
Public Venture Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.05.14 13:08:00 -
[15]
Thinking of starting a Corp? Corp Chief wanted, new players considered, click above for details |
Somal Thunder
Intergalactic Peace Organization
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Posted - 2009.05.14 13:56:00 -
[16]
I've been playing years and a t2 fitted drake or drake gank will best a similar battleship gang ANY day at PVE!
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Lukriss
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Posted - 2009.05.14 15:35:00 -
[17]
Let them, just make sure they insure it, hopefully they'll realize when they get blown up
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BushRaider
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Posted - 2009.05.14 15:51:00 -
[18]
Until they can fit the BS sized modules - Cruise launchers, seige launchers etc, then there is just no point in having one. I have a Raven that is equipped for L4 missions, and use a Drake for anything below that. You, in theory, could fit heavy launchers / heavy assault launchers on a BS, but all you get then is a target that is effectively just an expensive big slow BC with none of the BC advantages better agility, smaller scan res etc.
Ask them what they think they'll gain by doing this.
Stick with BC's and Cruisers (and derivatives) until they get into hard L3's and L4 missions. Just isn't any point.
Skills definately > Ship size, but FIT FOR PURPOSE > ANYTHING ELSE
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ThaDollaGenerale
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.15 04:06:00 -
[19]
Let them buy their battleships then contact me, I'll come down and there and show them why a 1.5m skp player shouldn't have a BS.
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2009.05.15 06:48:00 -
[20]
Let them get their BS, then laugh at them when it gets popped.
That'll work.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.05.15 08:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Micia
Step 1) Inform them that it's not a smart idea to be zipping around in Battleships with no support skills.
Step 1 has been completed
Step 2) If they insist on flying Battleships, let them.
Step 3) When they die horribly, don't rub it in.
Step 4) Hopefully, they are wiser for it.
I disagree with 3). It is important that he at least remarks that in the time they spent training for battleship without getting near competency for it, they could have trained support skills that would have improved their usage of the ships they CAN use effectively, along with those of any furture battleship. Essentially, they must understand that even they didn't technically wasted time in training those skills, bad planning = lost time.
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Micia
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.15 08:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
I disagree with 3). It is important that he at least remarks that in the time they spent training for battleship without getting near competency for it, they could have trained support skills that would have improved their usage of the ships they CAN use effectively, along with those of any furture battleship. Essentially, they must understand that even they didn't technically wasted time in training those skills, bad planning = lost time.
Oh, for sure. Definitely good to bring up points again, about the why & hows.
My #3 was more along the lines of "Don't be a **** about about it when it happens"... 'cos it's gonna happen.
Some people just need to learn via trial and error. That's fine, too.
Of course... if they then proceed to lose another five BattleShips doing exactly the same thing... well, err...
_______
Should we fall before the dawn,
Say this at our pyre,
"They died Matari warriors,
Their faces to the fire." |
4THELULZ
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Posted - 2009.05.15 11:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Micia
Originally by: Space Wanderer
I disagree with 3). It is important that he at least remarks that in the time they spent training for battleship without getting near competency for it, they could have trained support skills that would have improved their usage of the ships they CAN use effectively, along with those of any furture battleship. Essentially, they must understand that even they didn't technically wasted time in training those skills, bad planning = lost time.
Oh, for sure. Definitely good to bring up points again, about the why & hows.
My #3 was more along the lines of "Don't be a **** about about it when it happens"... 'cos it's gonna happen.
Some people just need to learn via trial and error. That's fine, too.
Of course... if they then proceed to lose another five BattleShips doing exactly the same thing... well, err...
"The one who never made a mistake never made anything
... the one who made the same mistake twice was a fool"
One of my favorite quotes I believe applies here 
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Phaige
Minmatar
Reaver Construction Services
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Posted - 2009.05.15 16:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: BushRaider
Stick with BC's and Cruisers (and derivatives) until they get into hard L3's and L4 missions. Just isn't any point.
tbh you don't EVER need to use a BS if you skill for the T2 variants of BCs and train your support skills. I regularly run lv4s (just did Angel Extravaganza and The Blockade) last night in a Sleipner with no issues. Hell, I went to get Ice cream and left myself orbiting a tri-bs group. Love the tank on that tug boat. .
The only time I like to have a bs along is when you are doing group stuff with less skilled pilots. Then you can have the BS damage spounge and let the little'uns go about in Frigs/Cruisers whatever learing now to appropriatly fly their ships.
-----------------------------------------------
You may be a King or a little Street Sweeper, but sooner or later you dance wi' de' Reaper! |
Doomicon
Neo Genesis Dominion
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Posted - 2009.05.15 17:00:00 -
[25]
Another step by step, "How n00bs learn not to fly a BS"
1. 1mil SP n00b 16 man corp makes tonz of money.
2. Buys pretty BS'
3. Get overconfident, and smack local for stealing salvage/can/etc.
4. n00b corp gets dec'd by two man corp, "the smackee's"
5. n00b corp gets wtfomghax by two man corp
6. n00b corp goes back to flying T1 cruisers or disbands.
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Sethcrantwo
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Posted - 2009.05.16 04:23:00 -
[26]
I'd like to offer a response to this, that I think goes against the mainstream.
I am still fairly new to eve. While my account has been around for quite some time as I have tried the game before, I have only recently gotten really into it. I currently have 2.8 mil skill points, and I have been living in null sec, with 2 constant war decs in high sec, for over a month. I can fly battleships, and I think it's one of the best decisions I've made. Here is why:
It's first important to understand, that for PvP, everything that everyone has said above, holds true entirely. You do not want to be flying a battleship for pvp with low skill points. You are just going to be losing a lot of money. It is much better to fly a better fit smaller ship in pretty much any pvp case.
However, your group is interested in making money running plexes. As a group, they will probably be able to output more dps flying cruisers and battlecruisers, so if they intend to run as a group, I would encourage them to follow the advice given above in this thread. However, if you decide to solo, there is only so much that you can do in a cruiser or a bc. Of course if you are in a t2 variety of some ship, there is far less of a problem, but training for a battleship, strictly the flying skills, is much faster than learning to fly t2 cruisers. Go drone boats as I have, and you can fly it fairly effectively ( for PvE, not PvP ). Strictly because of the fact that I chose to train battleships ( I now fly a Dominix, and run T2 Warriors, T2 Hammerheads, and T1 Ogres ), I am now able to solo 6/10 plexes. Within a matter of about 2 weeks, my skills should be high enough to solo the 8/10 plexes as well ( from the calculations I've done by trying them and comparing it with EFT ). Because of this, I have, and can continue to make, 100's of millions of isk in a given day just by scanning and soloing plexes, all because I am in a ship that I probably shouldn't be in given my skill points.
So, I personally think that training battleships is fine, for solo plexing or otherwise PvEing. PvE in this game is easy. Like... WAY easy. Easier than WoW easy. If that is what they intend to do, then battleships are a fine choice, even for low skills, in my humble opinion. If they intend to PvP in these however, this choice needs to be corrected immediately while they still have time to spend the skill points on more useful skills. I'd advise, if this is the case, to point them to this thread, showing just why it is a bad idea. Worst comes to worst, then when they run out of money from losing too many battleships in pvp, they will understand.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.05.17 02:55:00 -
[27]
The problem with trying to convince people that they shouldn't fly a BS at low SP is that there's not actually anything wrong with them flying them  If they have the money to be spending on BSs then let them, seriously if they've got the isk what's the harm?
Sure they won't be as effective as a higher skilled player, that's kinda the whole purpose of having skills >_> Someone mentioned how they beat their corpy in a fight with their AF vs the corpmate's BC, but can you honestly say that the fight would have ended differently had the other guy been in a frig?
Someone mentionned running missions in a CS, and how they can go afk in the middle of a mission because their tank is so ubar... When I made my most recent alt, who was built for running missions, I had her soloing lvl 4s in a domi (which btw entails agroing the whole room and just sitting back and letting the drones do everything) before she was even out of rookie chat
Battleships are awesome if flown properly, and you don't learn how to fly one by training up the skills for it, as the "player skill" is not currently available on the market  If you want to fly a BS, hop into one as soon as you can afford to lose it (which shouldn't take long given that it costs as much to lose a t2 frig as it does to lose a BS) and keep on losing it until you learn how not to do that anymore |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.05.19 02:22:00 -
[28]
The best way to learn that you're not ready to fly a battleship is to realise that the reason you're losing them so often is that you can't fly them :)
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.05.19 08:25:00 -
[29]
The "too much time" argument is valid enough. Remember that the skill system we are used to is unique in the MMORPG world.
Help them design a training plan using EveMON to get to the BS level and assist them with sorting it so they get maximum benefit out of the time (ie. small -> large).
Hopefully they will find during the training phase that Cruisers/BCs are better suited and gives them better bang for their buck.
After hitting 50M skill points, my biggest regret has been that I didn't take the time to smell the roses on my way to the BS. Frigate and cruiser hulls are awesome fun to fly and perfecting the skills for them takes no time at all, relatively speaking.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.05.19 12:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sethcrantwo
However, if you decide to solo, there is only so much that you can do in a cruiser or a bc. Of course if you are in a t2 variety of some ship, there is far less of a problem, but training for a battleship, strictly the flying skills, is much faster than learning to fly t2 cruisers. Go drone boats as I have, and you can fly it fairly effectively ( for PvE, not PvP ). Strictly because of the fact that I chose to train battleships ( I now fly a Dominix, and run T2 Warriors, T2 Hammerheads, and T1 Ogres ), I am now able to solo 6/10 plexes.
Originally by: Cambarus
Battleships are awesome if flown properly, and you don't learn how to fly one by training up the skills for it, as the "player skill" is not currently available on the market
I think this is an important point to bear in mind too - battleships suffer a lot more from lacking support skills, but if you appreciate what they can and can't do, and compensate accordingly with lots of "player skill" then things will work out OK.
If a player understands the tracking and missile formulas, knows what to expect from missions, tallies up the expected incoming damage and compares it against his tank, modifying for resistances (having fit NPC-specific hardeners), identifies the problem areas and has ways of projecting damage against all opponents etc. - then for sure, it's going to work out. In fact in the worst case scenario you'd run the numbers and realise you need to wait a little longer before taking the situation on. Thus it's actually pretty easy (and safe) for alts of experienced players to be using battleships early. Both the above posters give the impression that they knew what they were getting themselves into and chose ships, fittings and training regimes that would maximise their effectiveness quickly while ensuring they wouldn't overreach.
The main problem comes with not recognising the weaknesses of the larger ships; simply looking at the larger turrets/missiles as being able to output more damage, and the larger powergrid as being able to support stronger tanks, while not accepting all the subtleties. Consequently a one-month-old new player with Battleship I and Drones II and 100m ISK takes on a level 4 mission, possibly pops the wrong trigger, can't tank the damage, goes to warp out but is scrambled, either can't identify the scrambling frig or can't kill it with main guns (which miss constantly) and two unbonused low-skilled drones (possibly even large for "maximum damage"). Hence one very dead battleship.
Also, I don't like using total SP as any kind of measure since it depends what they're in. With alts in particular, chances are that those skillpoints are all entirely focused on flying the battleship, and that the plan is solid (i.e. includes Drones V, DI 3/4 and possibly T2 light drones as a requirement due to understanding that this is the battleship's only defence against frigates). A "real" new player has probably not got the same amount of focus on skills, and likely trained skills that sounded "cool" rather than those that give the most efficient return on training (not that this is a bad thing, I'm sure we all did this initially). Even if they did then decide to focus on a battleship training plan, chances are that they won't have recognised the most important skills to train and thus could still be missing some critical skills even 2/3 million SP down the road.
The good news is that it's possible to get player skills at an accelerated rate, compared to training in-game skills at least. If you want a summary, it might be best to say "don't get into a battleship until you fully understand its shortcomings and how to address them," though that's probably no good since by definition if a player isn't aware of a factor then he's probably not aware that he's unaware of it...
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