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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 21 post(s) |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
193
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Posted - 2012.06.13 09:03:00 -
[91] - Quote
Kreiga - you raise a valid point. But that can be fixed by balancing as opposed to just removing. E.g. Only 1 jamming ship in a spawn vs 2-3 for example. Also, it is not unreasonable to have the NPC ewar such as jamming turn off if a member of the opposing militia warps into the plex. You are never going to get pvp in a plex all the time. I think it is reasonable to expect the NPCs to put up a decent fight and use all weapons at their disposal including their racial ewar... FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Madbuster73
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
35
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Posted - 2012.06.14 20:46:00 -
[92] - Quote
Cearain wrote:There are allot of good ideas here.
XGallentius is right the npcs should really be a dps sink. Chatgris is right they shouldn't interfere with pvp. And pretty much everyone is agrees speedtanking plexes is a problem. I think the following changes - mostly proposed by others - would work well:
1) must kill all rats
2) the rats will orbit the button and not leave that orbit range and only agro when the timer is running. If the timer stops they stop aggroing. This will do 3 things: A) it will mean if a war target warps in the person running the plex can go outside the timer range and fight without worring about rat damage. B) It will prevent one ship from comming in collecting the aggro orbiting outside range while a small long range destroyer just shoots the rats inside the orbit range C) If it is a newer player having problems with the rats they can shoot the rats outside the orbit button. This of course means it will take longer for them to run the plex. But gives them an option.
3) Have the rats use small weapon systems. Having battleships shoot torpedoes is just asking players to speedtank the plexes in a small ship. Instead of torpedoes the rats should use light missiles/assault and rockets. Battleships will just fit more of them and have more damage mods. They should also use smaller guns that can track. The rats might also get a speed boost. This will mean that a) the overall dps will go down,(allowing more pvp fits to be used in plexes) but also b)the rats will hit smaller ships almost as hard as bigger ships - which means people will use the bigger ships. Perhaps some of the ships will stay in orbits throughout the range instead of chasing us if that will mean it is harder to kite them inide the orbit range.
4) Possibly increase the tank on the npcs. I'm not sure how necessary this is but its something ccp can tweak if necessary.
+1 |
Madbuster73
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
35
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Posted - 2012.06.15 09:11:00 -
[93] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:The reason Gallente can't speed tank plexes like the squids do is because of the NPC damage type, not anything to do with ECM EWAR. To be sure it will make PVP easier in the plexes than it was before, but the speed tanking issue, at least on this end of the FW arena, is completely unrelated to NPC ewar. Missile spam is what keeps us from soloing the larger plexes in T1 frigs. You can maybe do mediums with good skills and a good Incursus fit, but the majors are more or less closed to you without some ridiculous skills, or a better ship.
This is at the heart of the occupancy warfare imbalance over here. The squids can run all kinds of plexes with a single type of ship. That means they can go into the backwaters and plex to their heart's content, and never have to stop because they don't burn ammo, don't use up cap booster charges, and most of all, they don't have to reship. We don't have this luxury. The result is that the squids can plex at a far higher rate than we can when plexing in an area far behind the lines. This means that pretty much every system is in play for us defensively, whereas that is not as much a problem for the Caldari.
To reiterate, EWAR has nothing to do with the speed tanking issue in the Cal/Gal side of FW. The issue here is the missile spam and how it is far more effective against frigs than the blaster/rail dps from Gallente rats in Gallente plexes.
Also, Hans you can't say you don't want to make people do more PVE when you're already forcing them to orbit timers for extended periods of time. Either we recognize that speed tanking is an issue and do something about it, or we don't and we continue to let one side have an unfair advantage over the other.
+1 Yes, its the missile spam that makes it impossible for the gallente. So give all the NPC races missiles and problem solved. no more 1 day old Caldari alts farming in stabbed t1 frigates.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2512
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Posted - 2012.06.15 17:37:00 -
[94] - Quote
Hey guys, I was talking with Shalee Lianne and Drackarn and a few others on twitter today about the NPC issue, discussing the issue of speedtanking and plex farming.
A lot of you have suggested forcing the killing of rats in order to be able to seize the plex. As I've said before, I don't like this idea on the basis of keeping Sovereignty control as a PvP activity, and never *requiring* FW pilots to shoot red crosses in order to fight over a system.
One compromise that was well received all around was the idea of moving the LP reward to a rat bounty, and separating it from Sov control?
This way PvP-ers fighting over a system could still ignore the rats and engage in Factional Warfare without being forced to PvE. Those that wanted to farm plexing for profit couldn't do so in a speed-tanking frig, they'd have to actually *do something* for their isk.
There are variants on this, making the payout for the rats only occur if the timer actually completes, keeping people from just blitzing rats than leaving. But barring technical limitations that make programming this difficult, I think moving the profit-end of plexing to the rat killing solves a lot of issues.
What do you think everyone? Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
279
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Posted - 2012.06.15 18:26:00 -
[95] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:What do you think everyone?
Good first start and it will remove many afk plexing alt farmers from the area. However speed tanking major plexes in unfit frigs for sovereignty control is just as bad as it is for LP rewards. The Occupancy War will still be fought with afk plexing alts (offensive and defensive) - which is still wrong and still game breaking.
Better short term solution: Just have them kill all the rats. Stops offensive speed tanking ships from screwing up both Occupancy Warfare, and isk payouts.
Then figure out a way to stop the afk defensive plexing alts from being so efficient as well.
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Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
99
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Posted - 2012.06.15 22:38:00 -
[96] - Quote
I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world. If not having to do PVE is your objection, then you had better start brainstorming a better, more balanced mechanic than we have now. Otherwise we should balance the plexing mechanics we already have so that it's a level playing field and stop trying to make concessions to people who already live in the most active pvp environment there is in EVE. Enough with the spoonfeeding. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
466
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 23:40:00 -
[97] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hey guys, I was talking with Shalee Lianne and Drackarn and a few others on twitter today about the NPC issue, discussing the issue of speedtanking and plex farming.
A lot of you have suggested forcing the killing of rats in order to be able to seize the plex. As I've said before, I don't like this idea on the basis of keeping Sovereignty control as a PvP activity, and never *requiring* FW pilots to shoot red crosses in order to fight over a system.
One compromise that was well received all around was the idea of moving the LP reward to a rat bounty, and separating it from Sov control?
This way PvP-ers fighting over a system could still ignore the rats and engage in Factional Warfare without being forced to PvE. Those that wanted to farm plexing for profit couldn't do so in a speed-tanking frig, they'd have to actually *do something* for their isk.
There are variants on this, making the payout for the rats only occur if the timer actually completes, keeping people from just blitzing rats than leaving. But barring technical limitations that make programming this difficult, I think moving the profit-end of plexing to the rat killing solves a lot of issues.
What do you think everyone?
Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
466
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Posted - 2012.06.15 23:42:00 -
[98] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world...
Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
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Posted - 2012.06.16 01:52:00 -
[99] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world... Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong. Ergo, there are NO pvp mechanics for sov capture in FW as we don't have to DO something like online ihubs and drop SBUs and shoot structures like they do in null sov.
Orbitting a button IS a PvE activity. Attempting to stop someone doing that is a PvP activity. The person trying to PvE who responds to the person trying to PvP them is also PvPing... FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Gevlin
Universal Might DSM FOUNDATION
158
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 01:58:00 -
[100] - Quote
Unless there is a mechanic that is "Instant action" option and the Player is Hot dropped any block that is being taken over NPC will have to be a barrier to entry.
When I talk about NPC i mean ones that have brains. Ones that are tough.
I would like to see some resistance than now resistance when I come to fight a challenge.
Though it would be interesting to see an NPC light a cyno and a bunch of players come rushing threw. The Goons are Coming, The Goons are Coming Jita the April 28, Hulk a geddon April 29 for a month. The Best Tears are the Geifer's Tears. just hope the new crime watch system is in place by then.... oh the chaos will rain!!! |
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Cheekything
Dark-Rising
101
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Posted - 2012.06.16 03:06:00 -
[101] - Quote
On the matter of Ewar and NPCs, I've never been a fan it doesn't seem to do anything but annoy players and I'd be happy for it to be removed.
However with NPCs as a whole I'd love it if CCP create a new set of NPCs just for factions and Factional warfare with the following:
- Give them sleeper like AI so they can choose targets more effectively. - The only EWAR should be webs and maybe a 0 point scrambler to kill MWDs - Tougher and stronger in the HP and DPS area. - AI that will assist a player from their faction that is being aggressed by someone (like gate guns and concord do) and that will instantly target people will low standings and low security ratings (the second is exempt if in the factional warfare). - Slight UI change that will make the Icons white when they are with you and red when they are against you, (give them the colour of your +10 standings and -10 standings even). - Allow the ships to not give away their specs by the name just call them Gallente Frigate etc.
And on the warfare system we need more pvp that is preferably based around some NPCing but also ones that players can get involved with.
This might be a great time to do some work with Dust's planet stuff or just have it so you have to bombard a planet and protect the people who are doing it, while they are doing it once they finish then you win points towards that system and some juicier LPS. (might be a great idea to get a small amount of capitals involved in FW). |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
281
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 14:20:00 -
[102] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world... Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong. Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
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Posted - 2012.06.17 07:04:00 -
[103] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world... Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong. Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button. I'd argue it COULD be considered as better - at least it gives you something to do... FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Atfal alNudjum
Black Watch Guard
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 08:19:00 -
[104] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:What do you think everyone? Good first start and it will remove many afk plexing alt farmers from the area. However speed tanking major plexes in unfit frigs for sovereignty control is just as bad as it is for LP rewards. The Occupancy War will still be fought with afk plexing alts (offensive and defensive) - which is still wrong and still game breaking. Better short term solution: Just have them kill all the rats. Stops offensive speed tanking ships from screwing up both Occupancy Warfare, and isk payouts. Then figure out a way to stop the afk defensive plexing alts from being so efficient as well. Edit: What you are saying, What I am saying 1. Farming - You: Kill NPCs, Me: Kill NPCs 2. Occupancy Warfare - You: Speed tanking is cool, Me: Kill NPCs 3. PvP - You: Don't have to shoot red squares, Me: Don't have to shoot red squares. You kill rats to win occupancy, not to PvP. Nobody said you had to stay and finish the plex after a fight. Nobody said you had to run the timer before one.
Hans, killing the NPCs is the best option for the plexing side of things. At this point the system is so broken that people are boasting about making billions a day from LP rewards.....something needs fixing sooner and not later. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2533
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 09:36:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp?
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's just one idea though.
I don't want everyone getting the wrong impression here, I hate speed tanking of all kinds in all situations. The ideal goal to shoot for is forcing pilots into bigger ships for bigger plexes and missions, even if each can still be soloed. I don't mind pilots making absurd rewards doing FW stuff as long as they're taking absurd risks and putting isk on the line that can be *caught* if you're not careful. That's what's broken to me everywhere atm, the problem isn't that you make good money, its that its so safe to do.
This will ultimately require an overhaul of all the NPC AI, making them smarter and tougher, fewer numbers but still killable in PvP fits. Ytterbium may or may not be able to can clarify on the timeline, but I imagine something of this magnitude will be a feature of the winter expansion.
CCP may not be willing to do a lot more tweaks in the meantime, to shine a turd they're about to flush down the toilet, so to speak. We'll have to see and like I said that's something only Ytterbium can clarify for you.
I say all that just so everyone has appropriate expectations going forward while we discuss NPC's, and focuses on the right kind of feedback at this stage in the game. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 02:53:00 -
[106] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp?
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's just one idea though. I don't want everyone getting the wrong impression here, I hate speed tanking of all kinds in all situations. The ideal goal to shoot for is forcing pilots into bigger ships for bigger plexes and missions, even if each can still be soloed. I don't mind pilots making absurd rewards doing FW stuff as long as they're taking absurd risks and putting isk on the line that can be *caught* if you're not careful. That's what's broken to me everywhere atm, the problem isn't that you make good money, its that its so safe to do. This will ultimately require an overhaul of all the NPC AI, making them smarter and tougher, fewer numbers but still killable in PvP fits. Ytterbium may or may not be able to can clarify on the timeline, but I imagine something of this magnitude will be a feature of the winter expansion. CCP may not be willing to do a lot more tweaks in the meantime, to shine a turd they're about to flush down the toilet, so to speak. We'll have to see and like I said that's something only Ytterbium can clarify for you. I say all that just so everyone has appropriate expectations going forward while we discuss NPC's, and focuses on the right kind of feedback at this stage in the game. Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 04:15:00 -
[107] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world... Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong. Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
If they force people to fly pve ships or otherwise force people to have to warp off instead of staying for pvp(which they often do) they are worse than orbiting a button. IMO. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
469
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Posted - 2012.06.18 04:52:00 -
[108] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.
But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp?
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's just one idea though. I don't want everyone getting the wrong impression here, I hate speed tanking of all kinds in all situations. The ideal goal to shoot for is forcing pilots into bigger ships for bigger plexes and missions, even if each can still be soloed. I don't mind pilots making absurd rewards doing FW stuff as long as they're taking absurd risks and putting isk on the line that can be *caught* if you're not careful. That's what's broken to me everywhere atm, the problem isn't that you make good money, its that its so safe to do. This will ultimately require an overhaul of all the NPC AI, making them smarter and tougher, fewer numbers but still killable in PvP fits. Ytterbium may or may not be able to can clarify on the timeline, but I imagine something of this magnitude will be a feature of the winter expansion. CCP may not be willing to do a lot more tweaks in the meantime, to shine a turd they're about to flush down the toilet, so to speak. We'll have to see and like I said that's something only Ytterbium can clarify for you. I say all that just so everyone has appropriate expectations going forward while we discuss NPC's, and focuses on the right kind of feedback at this stage in the game. Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!!
I'm not so sure this is going to change very much really. Since amarr has so many more offensive plexes to run it may actually hurt amarr - I am thinking we will be able to speed tank allot of plexes after the "no ewar" change.
Until Amarr really starts to spread out and make the war painful for minmatar by forcing them to defensive plex in back systems for no lp gain we are not going to turn this around very fast. Unless fweddit brings in huge numbers from null sec or something.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 08:45:00 -
[109] - Quote
So CCP has asked for feedback. When are we going to hear feeback from them that they are going to make FW balanced so some militias aren't favoured over another? Removing ewar is NOT enough...
Apart from the existing fixes, suggest CCP ALSO put the 0.5 standing requirements back in. Stop the disposable alts being put into the minmitar militia to farm. (BTW - we predicted THIS would be an issue before Inferno was released as well). FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
38
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:17:00 -
[110] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: A lot of you have suggested forcing the killing of rats in order to be able to seize the plex. As I've said before, I don't like this idea on the basis of keeping Sovereignty control as a PvP activity, and never *requiring* FW pilots to shoot red crosses in order to fight over a system.
I might have missed it, but why?
Requiring all plex NPCs to be killed makes sense from a RP point of view - they are defending after all. They aren't exactly difficult to kill given a reasonable amount and type of ships which varies by plex size. It gives the attackers something to do while capping the plex and waiting for PVP. Most importantly, it stops speed tanking alts.
That should be relatively easy to implement.
I used to think that the NPCs should be 'better' and more sleeper like. However, I now think that would tip the balance to much towards PVE instead of PVP. Ideally other players should be the defenders. NPCs are only really there to provide some defence when there are no player defenders. It's that defence which speed tanking nullifies. You might as well just have the button with no NPCs at all.
Everything else pretty much works as it is.
So, require the NPCs to be killed and see what might need adjusting after that. |
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
285
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:32:00 -
[111] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
If they force people to fly pve ships or otherwise force people to have to warp off instead of staying for pvp(which they often do) they are worse than orbiting a button. IMO. This is a short term solution, and the rats are already there, so there is no "incremental cost" to pvp at the expense of pve. In fact, if you made it a point to shoot the rats, then you would get a more pure pvp encounter when it actually happens.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2539
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:52:00 -
[112] - Quote
Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!!
The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have.
I've already spoke with them about this though, and discussed the exact solutions proposed in this thread by you all. I'm just not sure they're going to devote the time to it or not. Like I said, that's something only Ytterbium can clarify or give reasons as to why that's not possible.
Regarding the sleeper AI - whatever they end up using, the design goal is to tailor fit them to be fought against using PvP fits. The NPC's may not be copycats of incursion rats or sleeper rates, CCP has the capability at least to custom make new NPC's and adjust their strengths and firepower to fit. If it were me coding them, I'd make them fewer in number, smart enough that they mitigate speed tanking and force a ship-up for each plex size but are still straightforward enough to kill that they don't serve as a persistent deterrent to PvP. They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship. All that to say, I've heard enough of their intentions here to not worry too much about this pushing FW back into PvE-land. We already have incursions, there is no need to duplicate that here, Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
469
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:58:00 -
[113] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have.
Hans thanks for the feedback. It seems there is still some resistance from ccp in seeing the value in really making faction war work.
I also saw a dev in another thread talkiing about how they could be working on ship balancing instead of faction war. Again because that "effects everyone"
Just because boosting the condor will "effect everyone" doesn't mean it is as important as faction war. The effect that this has is pretty miniscule. And its not just because its a frigate. This whole ship balancing is just changing the fotm. And frankly its getting to the point where you can't do any sort of long term planning in eve. Crucible was much needed and a great addition. But if future expansions are just going to involve tweaking numbers on ships every month "to mix it up" then I am concerned for the game.
Faction war is the real crux of what people do in the game. And if they actually got it right it would be a major draw like null sec is. Its not just another ship people can fly depending on what is buffed or nerfed. I really can't see how anyone could think "ship balance" is as important as getting a core gameplay feature working.
Frankly I will still play eve even if the drake is not nerfed or the incursus wasn't buffed. But if they botch faction war I am not likley to stay subbed at all. I can't imagine many people were going to unsub if the incursus didn't get a buff.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2541
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Posted - 2012.06.18 19:48:00 -
[114] - Quote
Ok, let's not drift too far backwards into the "CCP doesn't care about FW" zone....
I wasn't trying to say that the feature isn't important to CCP, just that something as front-and-center as the user interface is naturally going to need the most immediate attention if it's malfunctioning.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
195
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Posted - 2012.06.19 02:36:00 -
[115] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Har Harrison wrote:Hans, if they DON'T do something soon, you might see a total collapse of the Amarr Militia. There is no way we can compete when the minmitar can make the LP they are, cash in it and then return in SFIs which is the best faction cruiser going around pretty much... It costs them nothing to fly one. We have to spend a fortune to get the equivalent ship from our store and SFIs are still expensive for us when we have no isk. Even if you remove the ISK side of things and go with the approach that Fweddit has of many numbers in cheap ships, it still doesn't remove the fact your side can capture a plex with 1 guy while we need a fleet. It might be turd polishing, but it MUST be done in Inferno 1.1 or soon after as the winter expansion is too long to fix something we all knew was an issue BEFORE Inferno Don't give us a rolls royce in 3-4 months time. Give us a fix now (must kill NPCs) and THEN go away and work out a better long term fix... If they can do it for the UI, they can do it for this!!! The problems with the UI affected everyone in the entire game without question, Faction Warfare is only small subset of players, and besides no one's been able to successfully convince CCP yet that there is a "crisis" here where one faction is stuck purely based on the mechanics alone. So I think the sense of urgency you'd like them to have on this issue probably isn't the same sense of urgency they're going to have. I've already spoke with them about this though, and discussed the exact solutions proposed in this thread by you all. I'm just not sure they're going to devote the time to it or not. Like I said, that's something only Ytterbium can clarify or give reasons as to why that's not possible. Regarding the sleeper AI - whatever they end up using, the design goal is to tailor fit them to be fought against using PvP fits. The NPC's may not be copycats of incursion rats or sleeper rates, CCP has the capability at least to custom make new NPC's and adjust their strengths and firepower to fit. If it were me coding them, I'd make them fewer in number, smart enough that they mitigate speed tanking and force a ship-up for each plex size but are still straightforward enough to kill that they don't serve as a persistent deterrent to PvP. They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship. All that to say, I've heard enough of their intentions here to not worry too much about this pushing FW back into PvE-land. We already have incursions, there is no need to duplicate that here, I'm inclined to call crap on CCP not wanting to do it Hans (this is against CCP, not you since I don't want to shoot the messenger and appreciate the work you are doing here).
If all 4 races can speed tank a major in a 1 week old char in a frig, then it is balanced. Amarr cannot do this. Therefore it is unbalanced and IS an issue. We can't have a person sat in every plex in every system to run a timer down since the farmers are bouncing around trying to get LP, not partake in FW as it gives us no reward. This goes against the very fundamentals of what FW is supposed to be about - small to medium scale PvP in the name of the empire you serve. NOT INSANE ISK/LP FARMING.
CCP MUST have logic that can detect if the rats are on grid or the ability to do this via the existing trigger mechanism. They do it for Incursions, l4s etc... Secondly, a check must be made every tick to see if the clock goes up or down depending on who is on the button and if there are opposing militias there. When the counter reaches zero, the plex completes. How hard is it to add an extra check to see if the counter is 0 AND all ships are destroyed? (they need to make sure all spawns have appeared as well).
And when are we going to see the fixes to the plex bugs we have been reporting over and over? Borked timers that won't count down. Plexes that won't depawn and therefore mean one side cannot effectively plex. Plexes that say captured, but don't post the message in local and so the achievement has not actually occured.
Alot of people aren't that interested in the ship balancing right now - they just want this part of the game to be fixed so they can enjoy it whilst CCP goes and works on the larger stuff like changing NPC AI, ship balancing (which effects the WHOLE game) etc...
I will repeat what I have posted before about the timer bug.
I had a conversation with a dev at fan fest and his response to players purposely bugging the timers was "We didn't expect them to do this". They know something is not working as they intended, so they should go and fix it. They are doing it for the UI, are doing it for the wardecs, so why does FW miss out? Because the issue is so much older, so the FW have learned to put up with it??? FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
470
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Posted - 2012.06.19 04:25:00 -
[116] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Shotting rats (that already exist in plexes) is no worse than orbiting a button.
If they force people to fly pve ships or otherwise force people to have to warp off instead of staying for pvp(which they often do) they are worse than orbiting a button. IMO. This is a short term solution, and the rats are already there, so there is no "incremental cost" to pvp at the expense of pve. In fact, if you made it a point to shoot the rats, then you would get a more pure pvp encounter when it actually happens.
This is true an it is why I am in favor of the must kill all rats requirement - if we are going to have rats. But I was just pointing out that orbiting a button is not as bad as having rats because it does not force you to fit a pve ship. Nor does it cut through your tank so that if anything with a point comes you need to warp out or die just from being held. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
38
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Posted - 2012.06.19 12:09:00 -
[117] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: They shouldn't force pilots into *tank-the-room* PvE fits that focus on DPS-soaking, but they should have enough webbing frigates and such that you put yourself at much higher risk going into a larger plex in a small ship.
It shouldn't be the case that individual players are be able to solo plexes (at least bigger than a minor). Less "but I'll need a bigger ship", more "I need a couple of friends".
I really do believe that requiring the npc's to be killed will stop 1 day alt speed tanking for everyone (which is good) and still allow all players to use PVP fits (also good).
For example, I *can* solo a minor in a griffin. That is, killing the npc's. It works, but it takes a while. It's much easier and quicker if I have a couple of friends to help kill the rats. There is no reason at all for all involved not to have PVP fits, ready for any defenders which may drop by,
What is the argument against it? |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
470
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Posted - 2012.06.19 16:22:00 -
[118] - Quote
CCP when are you getting rid of the missiles from the Caldari plex rats?
They are way too effective in comparison to the other weapon types.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
470
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Posted - 2012.06.19 16:53:00 -
[119] - Quote
Mekhana wrote:CCP when are you getting rid of the missiles from the Caldari plex rats?
They are way too effective in comparison to the other weapon types.
Perhaps someday they will get rid of the minmatar missiles as well. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
196
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Posted - 2012.06.19 23:46:00 -
[120] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mekhana wrote:CCP when are you getting rid of the missiles from the Caldari plex rats?
They are way too effective in comparison to the other weapon types.
Perhaps someday they will get rid of the minmatar missiles as well. And this is the reason WHY I have been saying that removing ewar alone may not solve the speed tanking issue. Some races have to deal with turrets AND missiles, others just have to deal with turrets. FW - Inferno is better, but you need to fix the NPCs and fix the plex bugs CCP |
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