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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.05.19 04:43:00 -
[31]
Put guns on the asteroids and let them fight back
Seriously though - I agree something needs to be done for mining. The static asteroid belts are at the heart of the issue I believe. Mix it up a bit and make people go find their ore, like real geologists and miners do. Once you find the ore, you mine it 'til it runs out, then you go find another place.
Mix up the distribution, make the rarer ores harder to find and put some bigger rats in based on the value of the ore. No reason why you shouldn't have to tank a couple of BS rats to get some Ark or Bis, while the guy in the next ateroid field is tanking a frigate or two while collecting Veld in the same system.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Hayaishi
Gallente Armada Ministry Defence
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Posted - 2009.05.19 05:00:00 -
[32]
i guess that what can be done is make scanning for asteroids a little easier. by... well... putting in a few more probe-able belts thagt respawn randomly, but frequently. so we really dont run out of stuff to mine, we just need to look.
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Valushon
Gallente Ex Caminus
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Posted - 2009.05.19 05:29:00 -
[33]
I am in full agreement with a revamp of mining, and I also think that loot drops should be adjusted. However, the argument that 'x' activity yields less than L4 mission running is silly. Just because 'x' yields more per hour than 'y' is not a reason to nerf 'x'. Fiddling with game mechanics in order to produce an equal outcome for all gameplay would lead to a boring game. If some guy becomes a billionaire running L4 missions, so what? If you want to be a leet PvP stud, are you doing it in order to become rich on internet spaceships?
Having said all that, a previous thread, which I'm too lazy to link to, alluded that 40% of the mineral market came from loot reprocessing. Whereas mining has to compete with belts and respawn rates, missions are unlimited for the most part. Not sure how to deal with this though, if CCP nerfs missions, I think a sizeable chunk of mission runners quit. |
Hayaishi
Gallente Armada Ministry Defence
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Posted - 2009.05.19 05:46:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Valushon I am in full agreement with a revamp of mining, and I also think that loot drops should be adjusted. However, the argument that 'x' activity yields less than L4 mission running is silly. Just because 'x' yields more per hour than 'y' is not a reason to nerf 'x'. Fiddling with game mechanics in order to produce an equal outcome for all gameplay would lead to a boring game. If some guy becomes a billionaire running L4 missions, so what? If you want to be a leet PvP stud, are you doing it in order to become rich on internet spaceships?
Having said all that, a previous thread, which I'm too lazy to link to, alluded that 40% of the mineral market came from loot reprocessing. Whereas mining has to compete with belts and respawn rates, missions are unlimited for the most part. Not sure how to deal with this though, if CCP nerfs missions, I think a sizeable chunk of mission runners quit.
they dont need to nerf anything... its just that asteroids need to become either more plentiful in 0.5, or larger. or make mining missions really worth mining. etc.
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jamaican herbs
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Posted - 2009.05.19 10:26:00 -
[35]
Edited by: jamaican herbs on 19/05/2009 10:30:22
I gave up mining not that long time ago. Mining ABC in 0.0 is quite profitable but involved, ****load of logistics, and always had a risk involved. Whether it is mining or hauling the ore and avoiding getting popped by roaming gangs or when you get the ore (refined or compressed) jumped to lowsec, there's the risk of getting popped by pirates. In highsec you have to evade suicide gankers and war targets. Evading them is easy though but a risk nevertheless.
After a month of mining and many many hours of hauling i was 1,2 bil richer, sounds good! And that's only 3 hours of playing per day average (including hauling). Oh wait thats about 14 mil/hour. This is with a single account, doing all by myself, except compressing and jumping the ore from 0.0 to lowsec.
Also mining is very boring as well.
Lvl 4 missions here i come
edit: ninjaedit
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Aargh
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Posted - 2009.05.19 10:58:00 -
[36]
a) You can run plenty of missions AFK.
b) You can do those missions in a ship that costs under 150M isk.
c) You can run level 4s with under 4m skill points, so it's hardly a "skill intensive" profession.
d) A mission runner's secondary source of income directly impacts a miner's primary source of income.
Just a few facts to throw into the steaming pile of ordure that's passing as information in some of this thread.
CCP had a chance to throw miners a major bone when introducing T3 by requiring more mid and high end minerals. Why they didn't, I do not know.
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ingenting
20th Legion Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2009.05.19 11:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Aargh a) You can run plenty of missions AFK.
b) You can do those missions in a ship that costs under 150M isk.
c) You can run level 4s with under 4m skill points, so it's hardly a "skill intensive" profession.
d) A mission runner's secondary source of income directly impacts a miner's primary source of income.
Just a few facts to throw into the steaming pile of ordure that's passing as information in some of this thread.
CCP had a chance to throw miners a major bone when introducing T3 by requiring more mid and high end minerals. Why they didn't, I do not know.
quoted for truth _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu *BAAOOM*... Told you, newb."
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.05.19 12:36:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Aargh a) You can run plenty of missions AFK.
b) You can do those missions in a ship that costs under 150M isk.
c) You can run level 4s with under 4m skill points, so it's hardly a "skill intensive" profession.
d) A mission runner's secondary source of income directly impacts a miner's primary source of income.
Just a few facts to throw into the steaming pile of ordure that's passing as information in some of this thread.
CCP had a chance to throw miners a major bone when introducing T3 by requiring more mid and high end minerals. Why they didn't, I do not know.
Your "facts" are rather meaningless without an argument, and thus you're just adding to the pile of "ordure", as you put it.
T3 manufacturing is far, far FAR too low volume to have an impact on mining as a profession.
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Callista Omenswarm
Astronautical Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.19 12:45:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Sir Substance
where the hell did you pull that figure from.
i guess maybe if you used a totally t2 fit,
Actually it was less than, I was working off around 1400 per cycle yield, easily surpassed by most hulk pilots.
Using a trit price of 4.1 (less go with the fact that along with not using 2x MLUs you're also too lazy to haul to sell to a decent hub), that's 12ISK and change for a vanilla veld roid.
That's 10mil an hour, so lets knock off 10% because you're slow to target and for cystal swaps.
So there you go, 9mil without even being close to maxing out your efficiency, although yes I conceed it does require a hauler so you can park in the belt. I was pulling in about 8mil over the weekend and that was with sucking up the entire belt, even crappy pryox.
If you move to a 1.0, target only dense veld and throw in T2 drones (lol at t2 drones and MLUs making a hulk 'vulnrable' in high sec), you can push 12mil an hour (more actually, but lets allow for some belt-to-belt travel time).
Originally by: Sir Substance
except that there are. sorry.
Really? bots? sure there's farmers but bots? they know to target repair station, scoop the damsel, etc? If so, CCP should be hiring the bot authors to write NPC AI.
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Callista Omenswarm
Astronautical Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.19 12:58:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Callista Omenswarm on 19/05/2009 12:58:48
Originally by: Aargh a) You can run plenty of missions AFK.
b) You can do those missions in a ship that costs under 150M isk.
c) You can run level 4s with under 4m skill points, so it's hardly a "skill intensive" profession.
d) A mission runner's secondary source of income directly impacts a miner's primary source of income.
Just a few facts to throw into the steaming pile of ordure that's passing as information in some of this thread.
All apart from b) I'm not disagreeing with and b) I'll happily conceed as my original point was with the OPs singling out of hulks as 'expensive' when they're comparative to L4 mission runners.
And there's the key word in all of this... 'comparative'.
L4s can be run AFK. Sure, but we're talking about the ISK/hour and MINERAL impact on miners of L4s. So your 'fact' is misleading as Looting and Salvaging is not done AFK.
And while you might not see Level4s as 'skill intensive' the point remains that you're in a hulk sooner than you are in a Domi with decent drone and fitting skills to be able to AFK the mission.
I'm all for CCP over-hauling mining and the industry professions, but to say the motivation for it should be that L4 missioners earn a good deal more ISK/hour is just bizarre.
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skeljita
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Posted - 2009.05.19 15:58:00 -
[41]
why waste your time mining when you can do it while you sleep?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.19 16:22:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 19/05/2009 16:22:53
Quote:
why waste your time mining when you can do it while you sleep?
If you really want to breach the EULA, when you sleep you should use the trade bot aka "John Doe", not the mining bot. Mining fails that much.
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Kharm Storm
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:00:00 -
[43]
Ok i am a pretty proficient miner i think, i made 700mil this month from sale of manufactured items i made from mining. But to do that i run 2 hulks and an orca. I clear a belt in 2 hours there are 10 belts in the system i am in and they are all 1 maybe 2 cycle roids. I would like to see belts requiring scanning and also up the anti in them much like .4 systems now have large NPCs should not .6 and .5 systems get medium rats. So in closing put bigger rats in belts and make it so i have to find the belt but increase the size of the roids and the variety of roid.
miner for life
NSDQ
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Rip Minner
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:26:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 19/05/2009 17:26:42
Originally by: Kharm Storm Ok i am a pretty proficient miner i think, i made 700mil this month from sale of manufactured items i made from mining. But to do that i run 2 hulks and an orca. I clear a belt in 2 hours there are 10 belts in the system i am in and they are all 1 maybe 2 cycle roids. I would like to see belts requiring scanning and also up the anti in them much like .4 systems now have large NPCs should not .6 and .5 systems get medium rats. So in closing put bigger rats in belts and make it so i have to find the belt but increase the size of the roids and the variety of roid.
miner for life
NSDQ
Fixed! It's called exploration
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Aargh
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:40:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Aargh on 19/05/2009 17:40:12 My "argument" was simply that people are making things up in the thread to make their point.
Originally by: Qui Shon
T3 manufacturing is far, far FAR too low volume to have an impact on mining as a profession.
Much like you attempt to do here, unless you actually have access to the relevant CCP data exports. I'm not suggesting that there is sufficient T3 production to impact the high-end mineral trade, but I note you don't hesitate to make declarative statements about things you are guessing at.
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Jimmy Duce
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Posted - 2009.05.19 20:10:00 -
[46]
I'll probably forget to check for an answer but who do you want mining improved? All I've ever seen is an argument about missions nerfs to "fix" mining. Mission nerfs are a seperate argument. And has already been pointed out many times u *can make 10+ mill/hr mining easy and much much safer than mission running.
About access to ore, CCP basically begged people to explore W space and take the easy access to the ore there.
About small roids, move! or scan for your own belts.
So again... rather than saying how something else needs to be nerfed cause they making more isk how about actually suggesting improvements or better yet use some of the features they have included, like I don't know, scanning!
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.19 21:02:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 19/05/2009 21:05:18 Explain how you make WH mining competitive, since this would be this universe-changing new game feature.
Just because there's some ABC roids in some belts does not mean you suddenly become able to refine them at any viable ratio, or compress them or even just bringing them out.
Also, people tend to call nerfs on missioning because you don't ever have to actually move in 0.0 for that, nor venturing in a wormhole, nor buying a Rorqual that is limited to never see high sec, nor buying POSes to aid in the operations nor be endlessy ganked left and right in the process. Ah, yes, you got such an hard life shooting NPCs, I concede that.
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Sir Substance
Minmatar The Empire Nation Dead Mans Hand
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Posted - 2009.05.19 23:34:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Sir Substance on 19/05/2009 23:39:17
Originally by: Hayaishi i guess that what can be done is make scanning for asteroids a little easier. by... well... putting in a few more probe-able belts thagt respawn randomly, but frequently. so we really dont run out of stuff to mine, we just need to look.
actually, thats not a bad idea. veld is expensive ATM because its a bottleneck to production. given its meant to be the easiest mineral to acquire, its a shame its always the last thing i have to mine when making battleships.
so, make grav sites that have one or two HUGE veld roids in them spawn once an hour or two per system, in every system in the game. bottleneck gone, trit price falls, macro miners find it harder to get to the sites.
Originally by: Callista Omenswarm
Originally by: Sir Substance
except that there are. sorry.
Really? bots? sure there's farmers but bots? they know to target repair station, scoop the damsel, etc? If so, CCP should be hiring the bot authors to write NPC AI.
really really. it took me all of 30 seconds of searching to find two sites offering a missioning bot. i wont link them, nor give you the keywords i used, because im pretty sure that would be me some banhammer.
but yes, they relly do exist. im not saying they are very efficient, and im not saying that they dont sometimes **** up the mission by shooting something they arnt meant to. but they certainly do exist.
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Brescal
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Posted - 2009.05.20 00:43:00 -
[49]
I must agree with salfulon. Mining has been forgoten and left to rot by development to say the least. I mine 90 percent of my time in eve. Combatants need to train for 3 months and they make MILLIONS daily. 0.0 ratting is way to easy to access and now tech 3 has made lone combatants capable of fielding wallets the size of industrial corporations whole. A caldari navy raven is eye candy. NOT a requirement like a hulk is. So do not compare faction ships please if you will. You combatants can make money anywehre in eve with almost no effort> everybody has been talking about it. it is a known fact. arkonor bistot and crokite are so easy to mine and reach now that they will come in line with veldspar mining very soon. what ever happened to mining income? we have the hardets time maximizing profit as it is. Combatants can easily go and rat in 0.0 without losing a ship. When a miner goes to a belt - pirates are sure to follow. We lose billions that way. Mining is no longer worthwhile. traders never have to leave high sec so why would they care and production experts love the fact that minerals are crashing they just make more money. Truth is that miners can be squashed like flies on a wall and nobody really dislikes that fact but us miners. Pvp'ers love killing us cuz we are so damn easy and everyone else just keep repeating that most minerals in game come from missions. Conclusion? Erase mining from eve. If any game developers are reading this could you guys give a nice response so that we at least know we are not overlooked? I am no noob considering i have been in the game for over a year now. so, i know what i am talking about.
A few things that i thought might save megacyte and zydrine from falling in line with veldspar mining isk per hour:
Reduce mission running mineral yield - especially minerals derived from 0.0 ratting. Too easy to get in the drone regions. CCP Declared they ackowledged that. Will something be done? Probably not.
Secondly - Make rare ore mining so skill intensive that they will come in line with mercoxit mining skills. Get them at perfect or explode trying.
gas prices by the way have dropped so much - i do not even look at mining them. Same will happen to megacyte and zydrine. just a matter of time. I see noobs in wormholes mining those ores.
I hope something will be changed. Pvp'ers get most updates - a mining revamp is way overdue.
thanks.
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Fille Balle
Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.20 11:19:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Salfulon When a specialised mining character with a year of industrial skills under their belt and an expensive tech 2 mining barge makes less than half as much isk as a six month old pilot in his first battleship,
it's a clear indicator that something is wrong.
Yes, you are absolutely right! YOU ARE WRONG! A six month old character does not make more from running missions. It takes at least 18months before you approach the 20mil isk/h barrier. And that's only if you salvage/loot on top of running the missions. In addition to that, you need to buy ammo, replace lost drones, deal with salvage thief's, and the latest greatest addition: mission objective ransomers!
When you mine, you don't make more profit from being in crowded systems. As a mission runner, you are limited by the quality of agents. As a miner, you are only limited by the availability of belts. Last time I checked, there where still loads of belts that are completely untouched.
I've checked on evemon, and the time it takes to maximize your yield from a hulk is 8months less than it takes to maximise the damage from a bs. And that's if you only use one weapon system, no drones included. I've also not included the refinery skills for the hulk, but adding all of them would be wrong (because you wont be mining all the different ores).
Aside from that, I wouldn't mind if they increased the yield per roid from mining, as this would lower the price of minerals, and make ships cheaper
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Callista Omenswarm
Astronautical Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.20 12:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Fille Balle Aside from that, I wouldn't mind if they increased the yield per roid from mining, as this would lower the price of minerals, and make ships cheaper
thus lowering the hourly rate a miner earns, prompting more tears from threads like this
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Lukriss
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Posted - 2009.05.20 13:29:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Callista Omenswarm
Originally by: Fille Balle Aside from that, I wouldn't mind if they increased the yield per roid from mining, as this would lower the price of minerals, and make ships cheaper
thus lowering the hourly rate a miner earns, prompting more tears from threads like this
actually it would increase the hourly gain for some time and then it would stabilize at the same level. (assuming no more people start mining due to the increased profit during that period)
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Jimmy Duce
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Posted - 2009.05.20 14:28:00 -
[53]
Returning to thread to point out that this is still an isk/hr argument and not a game improvement regarding making mining "fun".
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CyberJapes
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Posted - 2009.05.20 15:54:00 -
[54]
I have a question that's sort of related to mining. Its about the price of Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates. In the couple of months time since I first started inventing and started buying Ferrogel and fermionic condensates, the price on both has almost doubled. When I first looked at prices for them, just about 4 months ago, Ferrogel was selling for 29,999 each and Fermionic condensates was selling for 60,000 each.
Nowadays, Ferrogel sells for 55,000 each, and fermionic condensates for over 100,000 each.
Why are prices going through the roof for these two moon materials ?
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Syranu
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Posted - 2009.05.20 15:55:00 -
[55]
Alright this is extremely humiliating, but I did lose a golem on a lvl four just a couple weeks ago...got ****y and got scrammed, with my drones webified and me not paying attention..., not a good combo.
So Lvl 4s do have some risk....
I can get 12 mil an hour w/out my ORCA, 15 mil an hour with in hi sec..
If you want better yields go to low/null sec?
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Callista Omenswarm
Astronautical Engineering
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Posted - 2009.05.20 16:03:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Callista Omenswarm on 20/05/2009 16:03:47
Originally by: CyberJapes I have a question that's sort of related to mining. Its about the price of Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates. ... Why are prices going through the roof for these two moon materials ?
Long version : http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626
Short version : A POS exploit which was dumping far more product on the market than there should have been has been fixed.
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CyberJapes
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Posted - 2009.05.20 16:09:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Callista Omenswarm Edited by: Callista Omenswarm on 20/05/2009 16:03:47
Originally by: CyberJapes I have a question that's sort of related to mining. Its about the price of Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates. ... Why are prices going through the roof for these two moon materials ?
Long version : http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626
Short version : A POS exploit which was dumping far more product on the market than there should have been has been fixed.
Thanks for the info
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.20 16:35:00 -
[58]
Quote:
If you want better yields go to low/null sec?
I have gone there, did you?
Because I'd love for you to teach me where to find low sec minerals I can't find in high sec (expecially in missions and grav sites).
I'd also love for you to teach me how to convince the alliance's main corp not to pod me because only the holder corporation are allowed to enter the 1% of systems with the ABC roids. The others are kill on sight even if blue and in the same alliance there.
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.05.20 17:52:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jimmy Duce ...
About access to ore, CCP basically begged people to explore W space and take the easy access to the ore there.
...
A corpmate tried that the other day. He was mining arkonor. It was going to take him 11 trips in and out of the wormhole to get a refinable quantity. I logged off before he was done, but not before he had competition from other players as well as the sleepers to evade.
He was having fun, which is the important part, but mining veld in a better ship would have earned more for the amount of time involved -- which is the root of the problem.
Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
ikya
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Posted - 2009.05.20 18:01:00 -
[60]
I agree that there needs to be some reworking of Mining. But it really is more then that. If we work at removing macro miners then prices might change even more then they have been lately. I am not saying it is a bad thing just something to consider when thinking about changing the current system. We have veld right now that is more profitable then anything else in hi and low sec. I think adding more grav sites and removing most of the belts will really help. It isn't hard to get exploration skills.
oh well my 2 cents...
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