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Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
72
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Posted - 2012.05.10 23:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
... was a sailing ship that was part cargo, part warship; a much more evolved treasure ship than say a spanish galleon. These were big ships with real teeth, I'm not sure but I think they were considered capital ships.
Anyway I was thinking it would be cool if EVE had such a ship, I don't really have specs to dictate, kind of fishing for ideas.
I was thinking: * Capital Ship * Industrial Skillset (Lots of 5s) - Secondary faction based combat requirements, i.e. projectiles or hybrid etc. * Less space than either of the pure freighters, so say 100,000 - 200,000 * Lots of structure tank * Limited weapons, maybe mediums, or something??
This would be a high end ship for haulers post freighter.
Maybe some counter measure role bonuses that would make the ship usuable for small groups in low/null?
I'm an American, English is my second language... |
Marcus Ichiro
Kif Korp
22
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Posted - 2012.05.10 23:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
It would be cool, but I don't think it would have much use. When you're hauling in it you'd want to avoid combat and when you're doing combat in it you'd want to avoid hauling, so really in both situations you'd be far better off using other ships. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1415
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Posted - 2012.05.10 23:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ships are meant to be specialized for a single role.
Multirole ships are dumb from a design perspective as well as a practical one. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder
827
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Posted - 2012.05.10 23:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Multirole ships are dumb from a design perspective as well as a practical one.
....and this is why absolutely nobody will fly a Tengu. "Every other expansion has catered to the pew-pew need for more things to blow up; to more public cries of, "see how valuable I am!" - anon-á "You have to understand that the human ego will do whatever it takes to get attention because it needs to know that it exists." -- RuPaul |
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
127
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Posted - 2012.05.10 23:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Ships are meant to be specialized for a single role.
Multirole ships are dumb from a design perspective as well as a practical one.
stealth nerf tengu whine? |
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
127
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Posted - 2012.05.10 23:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:
Multirole ships are dumb from a design perspective as well as a practical one.
....and this is why absolutely nobody will fly a Tengu.
Zing! edit: check that timestamp |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder
827
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Posted - 2012.05.11 00:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Masamune Dekoro wrote:Zing! edit: check that timestamp
Oh man, the response just leaped right out. "Every other expansion has catered to the pew-pew need for more things to blow up; to more public cries of, "see how valuable I am!" - anon-á "You have to understand that the human ego will do whatever it takes to get attention because it needs to know that it exists." -- RuPaul |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
193
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Posted - 2012.05.11 00:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bootleg Jack wrote:... was a sailing ship that was part cargo, part warship; a much more evolved treasure ship than say a spanish galleon. These were big ships with real teeth, I'm not sure but I think they were considered capital ships.
Anyway I was thinking it would be cool if EVE had such a ship, I don't really have specs to dictate, kind of fishing for ideas.
I was thinking: * Capital Ship * Industrial Skillset (Lots of 5s) - Secondary faction based combat requirements, i.e. projectiles or hybrid etc. * Less space than either of the pure freighters, so say 100,000 - 200,000 * Lots of structure tank * Limited weapons, maybe mediums, or something??
This would be a high end ship for haulers post freighter.
Maybe some counter measure role bonuses that would make the ship usuable for small groups in low/null?
Galleons you mean? Not capital ships really, but closest thing at the time in that part of the world and century I suppose. There may actually have been larger ships then to. I haven't spent a huge amount of time studying the various ships at sea over the millenia. There have been a lot though, and they go back to 5000 bc with reference to those that could circumnavigate the world and did.
edit:
Just noticed you mentioned Spanish Galleons. I think you might be confusing a Galleon with a Galleon but I could be wrong. The fact that they were Galleons only dictates the general configuration of the ship, rather than role and or overall size.
Galleons could be fit for War with Forecastles, Sterncastles, Siege weapons, and shield walls as well as cannons in later times, but they were also serviceable as trade ships with none of these, or just Ocean going vessels for exploration, or even a combination of those. They could also be refit for different purposes without too much trouble.
I could be wrong though, but with reference to classical ships of the Renaissance, I yhink that was the largest common vessel of any fleet. Alliance Auction - EVE Rogues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438 |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1415
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Posted - 2012.05.11 00:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tengus fill different roles with different fits, the roles that can be satisfied with a single fit tend to be a lot more similar than industry / hauling and combat are. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
193
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Posted - 2012.05.11 00:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Tengus fill different roles with different fits, the roles that can be satisfied with a single fit tend to be a lot more similar than industry / hauling and combat are.
Tengus tend to be a smaller vessel. The ship referenced here would be more like a size up from a Battleship. Not a Dread, but comparative Tonnage between a common Battleship of the times, (The Galleon), and the later East Indiamen is very close and overlaps somewhat. Apparently the East Indiamen started out in the 700 Ton range and even reached so much as 1500 Tons.
Actually, most Galleons are said to be under 500 Tons, with the Manilla Galleons exceeding even the size of the East Indiamen and reaching as much as 2000 Tons. Obviously it's a very broad Spectrum, so by technicality at least the East Indiamen are somewhat in the region of the largest of the Galleons, but not quite as heavy due to various reason I am sure.
Quite possibly they were longer and had a greater capacity overall, when considering the Manilla Galleons likely accounted for Cannons and the like in their total mass. Something that was not as important or common on the East Indiamen, in addition to their lack of Fore and Sterncastles later on.
Very nice looking ships though.
Effectively, I suppose we would be looking at a Tech 3 battleship here, or one variation of them anyway.
Here's a link, for the sake of it: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/Genealogy/Documents/Asia/asiaShips.html
...you might want to copy and paste that. Alliance Auction - EVE Rogues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438 |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4198
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Posted - 2012.05.11 01:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
there is a ship with a 100,000 m3 corp hangar, 6 turret slots and a jump drive "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4198
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 01:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
it also has the ability to carry a dozen battleships or so "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
127
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Posted - 2012.05.11 01:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
But us carebears aren't allowed to drive those. |
Frank Truck
HAZMAT Hauling
6
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Posted - 2012.05.11 01:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bootleg Jack wrote:... was a sailing ship that was part cargo, part warship; a much more evolved treasure ship than say a spanish galleon. These were big ships with real teeth, I'm not sure but I think they were considered capital ships.
Anyway I was thinking it would be cool if EVE had such a ship, I don't really have specs to dictate, kind of fishing for ideas.
I was thinking: * Capital Ship * Industrial Skillset (Lots of 5s) - Secondary faction based combat requirements, i.e. projectiles or hybrid etc. * Less space than either of the pure freighters, so say 100,000 - 200,000 * Lots of structure tank * Limited weapons, maybe mediums, or something??
This would be a high end ship for haulers post freighter.
Maybe some counter measure role bonuses that would make the ship usuable for small groups in low/null?
If it could run gate camps it could be an alternative to jf. I assume this is to be a low/null ship, not much point in armed freighters in high.
EW would be better than guns, that is what I use for low sec transports. In low sec transport you either break away or you run out of tank. The original east indiaman could not go to warp so it had to be able to fight.
Balanced right it could be a cool low sec ship for small corps.
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Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
193
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Posted - 2012.05.11 03:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Frank Truck wrote: If it could run gate camps it could be an alternative to jf. I assume this is to be a low/null ship, not much point in armed freighters in high. ...
says you. Alliance Auction - EVE Rogues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438 |
Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
131
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Posted - 2012.05.13 15:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
The East Indiaman was the largest ship being manufactured by the end of the 18th century. To rig it for guns the hull was widened at the waterline, which then made it slow, and not very agile. Add to it the square-rigging you did get more speed in long runs, but this further reduced the agility making it relatively ineffective in engaging brigs, sloops or frigates one-on-one.
What significant successes this ship had in naval combat was when fleet actions occured. The combined gunnery of a fleet of East Indiamen was sufficient to stave off squadron-sized attacks by smaller naval vessels. (The ship was actually banned from landing at ports in England.) It was eventually targeted by attempts at steam power to overcome this speed problem, which happened in the mid-late nineteenth century
Though it carried significantly more cargo than other vessels at its time, and it made transoceanic runs in tradewinds much faster, and more safely due to its solid build, it was never considered any more than a cargo vessel that could defend itself given the appropriate circumstances. Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
17
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Posted - 2012.05.13 16:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thinking about this logically, if haulers and miners were coming under heavier and more frequent attacks even in high sec space, wouldn't there eventually be a need and demand for better armed/armored industrial ships? Even if they were armed at the expense of hauling capacity or mining efficiency, if you are constantly losing unarmed, under-armored ships to aggressors wouldn't it make sense at some point to sacrifice some capacity/efficiency to improve survivability?
I daresay, there are probably a lot more folks in high sec mining in battleships lately than there ever have been before. And this is pretty much an adaptation to the evolving security landscape. If that trend continues, it seems to me that corporations like Lai Dai and Ishukone would take note and start designing and marketing hulls to meet the needs of endangered industrialists. And industrialists would take note and start flying tougher ships, realizing that they should expect some combat component in their mining ventures, beyond easily swatted belt rats. People have been saying for years that CCP should make mining more interesting. Well, combat is pretty interesting.
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Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1128
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Posted - 2012.05.13 16:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
well East indiamen which is a generic term for any ship working for the East India company, developed into a class of ship of which the largest only converted to 4th rate ships of the line (and only of they had more than 60 guns and 2 decks)
this pretty much puts the indiaman at convoy escort level, IE: a destroyer, not a capital they were reduced from ship of the line status in the 1750's when it was decided by the Admiralty that fewer than 60 guns couldn't put out the firepower needed for line operations.
so even at their best the biggest merchant ships had teeth, but were still the weakest ships of the lot The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Grammaticus DeVere
POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem
7
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Posted - 2012.05.13 17:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
And of course the HEIC was defended to the death by the (at that time) all powerful Royal Navy, since thats how most of Englands wealth in the 18-19th centuries was brought back to England.
HEIC ships were the only ones that the Navy was not allowed to pressgang sailors from.
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Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
136
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Posted - 2012.05.13 22:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
I can fit a Mastadon heavily enough to withstand most "normal" ganking Alpha strikes, and to avoid being pointed during its godawful reaching warp interval. Can't say that about the Mammoth, though. I don't see any point in standing around shooting when you're going to run anyway, so fitting warp core stabalizers works well enough (if you fit enough.) The range reduction doesn't matter if you're not going to shoot. All you need is enough tank to withstand an initial whomp.
Of course, there's always limits. They're way too slow to avoid being locked by a destroyer or two...ten... It takes a good 12 seconds for the warp to engage for the upper end industrials. Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |
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FluffyDice
StarFckers Inc.
193
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Posted - 2012.05.13 23:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Ships are meant to be specialized for a single role.
Multirole ships are dumb from a design perspective as well as a practical one. What do you expect from the genius who can't find the right forum to post his every little crap idea in? |
Macks Artilius
The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing
62
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Posted - 2012.05.14 02:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Ships are meant to be specialized for a single role.
Multirole ships are dumb from a design perspective as well as a practical one.
Sure, if you're a min-maxer who wants either the most possible cargo capacity, or the most possible DPS. The people benefiting most from "specialised" haulers are the self-proclaimed "high-sec PVPers" who like to suicide gank defenceless haulers. I guess the closest thing we have now to an Indiaman would be a Deep Space Transport, being able to fit a decent tank at least but still completely weaponless. I say screw specialization, let me put autocannons on my hulk if I want to. It would generate some hilarious killmails at least.
Someone floated around the idea of "Q-ships" a while ago which I liked; they'd look like and identify as T1 industrials when clicked on, but actually pack a good tank and cruiser-level firepower. This is based on the real-life Q-ships which would be used to lure out German submarines. Again, the killmails would be worth the price of admission alone. |
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CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
1466
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Posted - 2012.05.14 06:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Moved from "EVE General Discussion".
CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire |
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