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Zendon Taredi
ZT Bank
20
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Posted - 2012.05.14 09:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
We provide decent buy orders for the lazy. |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
772
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Posted - 2012.05.14 11:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tekota wrote:
If I've understood this correctly it basically boils down to "buy minerals when they're cheaper" (and/or "sell freighters when they're expensive")?
The futures option is exactly to avoid to do that, since you'd build with prices known months in advance.
But let me be frank in the following reply to:
Tekota wrote: I've two issues with this as an approach; the first is that it essentially becomes an excercise in mineral trading rather than manufacturing - if all I'm going to do is make mineral price bets on what the basket will look like 24 days from now then why bother with the manufacturing stage, why not just trade minerals. I've also always considered the stance of "the goods I make are cheaper because I get raw materials cheaper" to be the stealthy brother of "the minerals I mine are free".
The second issue is purely a cash flow one. Now I've only recorded price inputs every 12 days when a batch goes in/out but looking through my history, the last time a batch saw minerals at such a price as to acheive a modest 100m profit on a charon sold at today's prices (roughly 3m isk per slot per day) would have been 31st March.
Now, undoubtedly there are bigger outfits out there who can cover that sort of cash flow, but I have to doubt it would be worth the risk - current operations see 20b committed in minerals either in production, sat on sell orders as finished goods, or available to buy the next batch of minerals, I add to that a further 5b cash flow reserve to allow one batch to sit on sell order 12 days further if market requires (ie. to ride it out), add to that the roughly 15b worth of cap prints and we're already looking at an operation that is holding 40b hostage. Adding a further month and a half's mineral reserves would add another c.15b to that reserve, essentially turning a (pessemistic) 3% ROI per month investment into a 2.2% ROI per month.
1) Raw23 and Rykker Bow and James Tundra (and others) achieved super-awesome returns by analyzing and handpicking exclusively the choices that would yield them a KILLING. You went for a known low profit venture. It's your fun, I also love to make freighters but then you have to deal with the fact that it's a low entry barrier industry niche and thus the margins are thin (yes 15b worth of cap BPOs is low entry at this age of the game).
2) Yes, regardless whether you hate it or not, you are trading minerals. In EvE (and in RL too), the first tier producers make things barely at profit or even with a loss. Yes, you spent 15B in BPOs and you tie 25B for turnover and yes you are just another industrialist in a game where products quality does not exist and where brand added value does not exist and where buyers can't care the less about your costs.
Once you remove BPOs from the equation (because nobody will recognize your startup costs, you don't have the power to enforce them) you are really just selling minerals shaped in the form of a ship, this is why the market treats you like you are trading minerals.
3) It's also a clear example of why finance rules above actual production and why in our rotten world became inconvenient to be constructive and DO, when you could earn more just with empty talk and moving money. Once everything has been commoditized, globalized, standardized, depersonalized, all you are left with are:
- branding - saving on the source costs.
You can't brand anything in EvE so you have to save on the source costs. Guess what, your running source costs are minerals. You are trading minerals, with the handicap your resale times are delayed while said minerals are stuck in producting the ships. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
37
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Posted - 2012.05.14 20:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Let me try and say this without totally derailing the thread.
The reason current traders might seem to be only of the speculative type and thus not as beneficial to the economy is; because that is their only current option.
I have tried for many years to explain that with so few dedicated traders the apocalypse market order nerf is the most disruptive mechanics ever introduced to the EVE economy. Everything price wise becomes dependant on hub centric numbers.
There is currently no distribution of reseller businesses, because its basically not possible. Take any single part in the chains of EVE production and you can not service any area well in more then a single location. There are 3 variants of each type of ORE, and just having buy orders to setup a refining service would take a huge amount of orders. Alternative would be using regional ranged orders, but that would potentially lock up assets where you are not willing to go. Ideally what we need is some solution to get back to a no limit system, so materials that are needed locally can be easily shipped and service resold and bought where needed.
Talking about effectiveness of economy and investors making liquidity available is utterly redundant, when you dont have the option to create an effective service sector and distribution network.
We are in gridlock in these regards, and until we get that fixed we will never have say Astral mining stations where the sell price of ore is always optimal, or research hubs where there is invention, where all the tools needed are seeded by players facilitating a specialized market. The mere fact that this is impossible is why we see so many weird price fluctuations.
On a side note I would like to ask OP if you have buy orders up of the product you build? In the current state of inefficient economy you should always have a buy order on anything you produce and modify it according to the prices of offered or incoming raw materials. The "do everything inhouse" approach is currently defended by the pseudo socialistic bias of ccps market mechanics. You get more contracts internally in a corp then externally to the public. I have said it before, that is equivalent to selling more lego to lego employees than public customers. Also the npc strawman bias makes it beneficial to be uncorped in regards to trading.
If these issues got attention production and all types of service areas would improve greatly.
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Kirichan
Legion Enterprises Inc.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.14 21:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
Traders are middlemen, I'd rather not have my isk tied up in merchandise when I can have it producing something. Would I make more isk with sell orders? My margins would certainly be higher, but from past experience my isk per hr would be lower. Certainly that could change in the future. |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
37
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Posted - 2012.05.14 23:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kirichan wrote:Traders are middlemen, I'd rather not have my isk tied up in merchandise when I can have it producing something. Would I make more isk with sell orders? My margins would certainly be higher, but from past experience my isk per hr would be lower. Certainly that could change in the future.
Problem with that is ccp turned the economy upside down on the market, which cripple production a lot..
Having the option to set limit on a buy order regarding volume is totally reverse.. It should be at least ALSO on the seller side.
With a feature like that we would get a lot more serious bulk order markets. Where its the supplier doing the bulk and not the producer setting the price. Competition is reversed, and its about time we got ccp to go through all these things.
I can not see how anyone benefits from leaving these blatant economic flaws in game, when they are possible to resolve.
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