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Simon Falls
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.05.11 13:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
The Torp Raven Battleship is at least marginally effective. It's not used much, but missile flight time isn't a major problem.
The cruise missile battleship is a waste of minerals currently.
Wouldn't it be interesting if battleship cruise missiles were instead effectively a 'guided bomb launcher'? Once a ship was targeted and the guided bomb was released it would burn toward the target (llike it currently does) until impact where it would explode as an area of effect like a bomb currently does.
Obviously the damage would have to updated due to effective range and the sheer number of missiles.
In battle currently, the bomb is the only splash damage weapon. A guided bomb from range would have the effect of long range artillery currently used in the military.
It would also provide a real role for FoF and Defender missiles which aren't currently used.
Crazy I know, but it would make for a very pretty screen shot.
And of the Honor Harrington fans... how about a multi-stage cruise missiles?? |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1594
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Posted - 2012.05.11 16:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
So ... you want to make cruise missiles un-usable in highsec? Because you just know that the instant that they implemented this someone would take a probing frigate and go and fly over next to the rats you're trying to kill in any mission. |
Drake Draconis
Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans
565
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Posted - 2012.05.11 16:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
mxzf wrote:So ... you want to make cruise missiles un-usable in highsec? Because you just know that the instant that they implemented this someone would take a probing frigate and go and fly over next to the rats you're trying to kill in any mission.
Cruise Missiles?
People still use those? ================ STOP THE EVEMAIL-áSPAM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=78152
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Simon Falls
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.05.11 16:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
mxzf wrote:So ... you want to make cruise missiles un-usable in highsec? Because you just know that the instant that they implemented this someone would take a probing frigate and go and fly over next to the rats you're trying to kill in any mission.
For PvP... [Suggestion] Guided 'cruise missile based' Bomb (Ammo Type) [only usable in Null Sec]
For PvE... Cruise missiles work fine I believe
*****
As ships and ammunition are being rebalanced the Caldari missile boats effectively have only one range (short) in pvp. This is particularily true in the battleship class. At maximum range of 250km it takes almost a minute for the missile to arrive.
Yes, railguns provide the instant damage if so equipped.
Guided Cruise Missile Bombs - These would provide a long wait for a fair amount of splash damage and would be useful in fleets for a host of reasons.
Stealth Bombers are useful and interesting, but rather than a 'suprise' ninja attack in this case you'd have a battleship providing bombardment from range. The battleship so equipped would be pretty vulnerable to small tackle but if implemented correctly would be pretty useful in softening up fleets. Small ships would simply outrun the missiles which have a fixed burn time. |
Drake Draconis
Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans
566
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Posted - 2012.05.11 17:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cruise Missile by definition is a long ranged missile...something no one really uses for the simple fact that most engaegments are in-your-face and mid to close range.
Thats why they don't get much if at all action in nullsec.
While your idea is great....all your really pushing for in reallity is a battleship grade space bomb...likely won't happen.
Spash damge wise you should look to smart bombs for that....granted its close range but...well you cant get around the commonality of tactics these days.
I'll admit I do like the concept...but its just not feasible due to sheer human habbit. ================ STOP THE EVEMAIL-áSPAM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=78152
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Simon Falls
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.05.11 17:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Large Alpha Fleets use Maelstroms Brawling fleets use Abaddon's Gallente - a little love recently
The addition of the T3 flyweight battlecruisers has lead to more sniping fleets.
And yep, a long range bomb platform that isn't stealthy would be fun. Countering it would also be fun. |
Drake Draconis
Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans
566
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Posted - 2012.05.11 17:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Simon Falls wrote:Large Alpha Fleets use Maelstroms Brawling fleets use Abaddon's Gallente - a little love recently
The addition of the T3 flyweight battlecruisers has lead to more sniping fleets but with battleship size guns.
And yep, a long range bomb platform that isn't stealthy would be fun. Countering it would also be fun.
True..but like I said...your talking about an item typically used for engagements at 150 to 200KM there abouts.
Most engagements are within 100k or lower at best....our own alpha fits are pretty mid ranged are they not?
Not saying its a bad idea..just hard to kick the habbit. :) ================ STOP THE EVEMAIL-áSPAM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=78152
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Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2012.05.11 17:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
seems like you'd see a lot more micro fleet warping (then you already do) within the battlefield, change of positions (100-150 km position changes) which would make such a weapon (noninstant damage missile weapons) fairly useless. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time. |
Simon Falls
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.05.11 18:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:seems like you'd see a lot more micro fleet warping (then you already do) within the battlefield, change of positions (100-150 km position changes) which would make such a weapon (noninstant damage missile weapons) fairly useless.
Perhaps
There are instances where we 'know' a fleet is going to be fighting from a fairly fixed position: Defending a SBU, POS, IHUB, Station. These remain the viable perches for Stealth Bomber fleets. Similarily they could be useful targets at a distance for a ranged area of effect Battleship group it would simply be a different platform at longer range.
A good Stealth Bomber FC working with CovOps can get a fleet into position on an aligned Alpha Fleet as well. This can be challenging because the bombs have fixed performance and once shot move in a simple manner and detonate.
A good Interceptor pilot (and we need more of those) can get to a position alongside and out of range, warp the Guided Missile Bomb ships to a position, target and launch some salvo's, and then reposition.
I presume the Battleship would have to stay on grid to provided targeting guidance for the missiles Time on Target. This would be a different mechanic than a Stealth Bomber who's trying to get off grid and re-cloak. Note that if a fleet changed direction the target bomb would follow their movment until they ran out of gas, time, or range. They would explode on 'contact' rather than at a random point in space.
A guided bomb would be a targeted bomb with an area of effect. You could warp off and avoid the bomb. You could fire counter battery fire (Defender Missiles). You could outrun them and you could out tank them.
Regarding ships entering a POS. Currently missiles launched on a targeted ship will enter the POS along with the ship. This could be 'very fun' or it could be restricted. I can hear the FC now "DO NOT ENTER THE POS"; ships enters the POS... "What the hell" as the bomb's detonate.
Alright, so one more fun idea out there on the table. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2012.05.11 18:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Simon Falls wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:seems like you'd see a lot more micro fleet warping (then you already do) within the battlefield, change of positions (100-150 km position changes) which would make such a weapon (noninstant damage missile weapons) fairly useless. Perhaps There are instances where we 'know' a fleet is going to be fighting from a fairly fixed position: Defending a SBU, POS, IHUB, Station. These remain the viable perches for Stealth Bomber fleets. Similarily they could be useful targets at a distance for a ranged area of effect Battleship group it would simply be a different platform at longer range. A good Stealth Bomber FC working with CovOps can get a fleet into position on an aligned Alpha Fleet as well. This can be challenging because the bombs have fixed performance and once shot move in a simple manner and detonate. A good Interceptor pilot (and we need more of those) can get to a position alongside and out of range, warp the Guided Missile Bomb ships to a position, target and launch some salvo's, and then reposition. I presume the Battleship would have to stay on grid to provided targeting guidance for the missiles Time on Target. This would be a different mechanic than a Stealth Bomber who's trying to get off grid and re-cloak. Note that if a fleet changed direction the target bomb would follow their movment until they ran out of gas, time, or range. They would explode on 'contact' rather than at a random point in space. A guided bomb would be a targeted bomb with an area of effect. You could warp off and avoid the bomb. You could fire counter battery fire (Defender Missiles). You could outrun them and you could out tank them. Regarding ships entering a POS. Currently missiles launched on a targeted ship will enter the POS along with the ship. This could be 'very fun' or it could be restricted. I can hear the FC now "DO NOT ENTER THE POS"; ships enters the POS... "What the hell" as the bomb's detonate. Alright, so one more fun idea out there on the table.
Not being a cruise missile user myself (or much of any missiles for that matter,) do cruise missiles continue to track you if you warp within the same grid? I would have though not, so the consistent changing of position when you have an obvious fleet of such cruise bomb battleships out there seems like the same pattern that you tend to get with stealthbomber groups, jsut with less chance of a shot landing.
Its only because of how missiles work with flight time that i cant really see them being viable at long ranges.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Ships to goo calc - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107898 |
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Simon Falls
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.05.11 19:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote: Its only because of how missiles work with flight time that i cant really see them being viable at long ranges.
Precisely, cruise missiles are generally useless for fleets in pvp.
I believe an area of effect detonation would make them greatly more useful for pvp the reasons stated. |
Drake Draconis
Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans
567
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Posted - 2012.05.11 19:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Simon Falls wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:seems like you'd see a lot more micro fleet warping (then you already do) within the battlefield, change of positions (100-150 km position changes) which would make such a weapon (noninstant damage missile weapons) fairly useless. Perhaps There are instances where we 'know' a fleet is going to be fighting from a fairly fixed position: Defending a SBU, POS, IHUB, Station. These remain the viable perches for Stealth Bomber fleets. Similarily they could be useful targets at a distance for a ranged area of effect Battleship group it would simply be a different platform at longer range. A good Stealth Bomber FC working with CovOps can get a fleet into position on an aligned Alpha Fleet as well. This can be challenging because the bombs have fixed performance and once shot move in a simple manner and detonate. A good Interceptor pilot (and we need more of those) can get to a position alongside and out of range, warp the Guided Missile Bomb ships to a position, target and launch some salvo's, and then reposition. I presume the Battleship would have to stay on grid to provided targeting guidance for the missiles Time on Target. This would be a different mechanic than a Stealth Bomber who's trying to get off grid and re-cloak. Note that if a fleet changed direction the target bomb would follow their movment until they ran out of gas, time, or range. They would explode on 'contact' rather than at a random point in space. A guided bomb would be a targeted bomb with an area of effect. You could warp off and avoid the bomb. You could fire counter battery fire (Defender Missiles). You could outrun them and you could out tank them. Regarding ships entering a POS. Currently missiles launched on a targeted ship will enter the POS along with the ship. This could be 'very fun' or it could be restricted. I can hear the FC now "DO NOT ENTER THE POS"; ships enters the POS... "What the hell" as the bomb's detonate. Alright, so one more fun idea out there on the table. Not being a cruise missile user myself (or much of any missiles for that matter,) do cruise missiles continue to track you if you warp within the same grid? I would have though not, so the consistent changing of position when you have an obvious fleet of such cruise bomb battleships out there seems like the same pattern that you tend to get with stealthbomber groups, jsut with less chance of a shot landing. Its only because of how missiles work with flight time that i cant really see them being viable at long ranges.
Missiles do not and will not track if the ship goes to warp...no different than any other weapon.
Exception to that is a splash damage area effect...if you happen to be on grid prior to going to warp..you WILL get hit by a space bomb or smart bomb blast (this i can atest to personaly )...so its a question of timing.
Cruise missiles are slow....and while great for very long range hits..just aren't rational in most combat areans. ================ STOP THE EVEMAIL-áSPAM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=78152
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
15
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Posted - 2012.05.11 21:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Id personally like to see something like warp bombs, that act like probes except when they reach the area you send them as soon as they drop out of warp they explode like normal bombs :P Real space artillery!
I could imagine stealth bombers, heavy bombers and maybe a battleship sized vessel with multiple bomb high slots being used. They could in fact be tech 2 bombs. |
Arduemont
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
92
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Posted - 2012.05.11 22:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Although I may need to have a more careful think through of the consequences of such a change, I have to say, I really like this idea. |
Natyrius
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.12 01:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Supported.
Cruise missiles are pretty much useless as they are. |
Simon Falls
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.05.12 04:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:Although I may need to have a more careful think through of the consequences of such a change, I have to say, I really like this idea.
I appreciate your consideration of the idea.
Let's consider what an FC could do with Cruise Missile Battleships using the Guided Missile Bomb. a) They'd have to get into position or be in position and stay on position until the bomb landed. That's 30-60 sec. b) The FC would have to determine how best to target. Focus (call a target) or spread targets at random. As an area of effect weapon that detonates on reaching the targeted ship this is a consideration. (Largely dependent on the damage and damage radius) c) Alpha (CCP would control the damage and the radius and both should be smaller than an unguided bomb released by a Stealth Bomber at short range). Consider the difference in effect between 20 guided missile bombs arriving time on target at 100% of damage in a 5km radius vs. 10% of damage in a 15km radius (as compared to the current bomb). d) How does the use of speed, signature (and MWD), affect the damage splash.
The unique difference of the Guided Missile Bomb (area of effect missile) makes a class of item and ship viable because of the many ways it could be used. Currently the PvP long range missile Battleship is dead, let's breathe some life in the right direction.
It also provides for the possibility of an active defense that isn't seen anywhere else in EVE. Damp's, Defender Missiles, and long range ECM get another life. Small frigate classes like the Kestrel become fleet defence. |
Arduemont
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
93
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Posted - 2012.05.12 19:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
I had a bit more of a think through of the idea.
I still like it.
CCP is always talking about giving ships niches and specific roles. This would do it for the cruise missile platforms. Plus, making sure that the ships have to stay on grid for the cruise missiles to be guided makes them vulnerable rather than just OP. Also, you couldn't use them too recklessly without putting your own fleet in danger from splash damage.
I just think it adds something new and interesting. And I cant see any really down side.
Supported. |
DarkSim Market
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.05.12 23:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
I like this.
Now if they made defender missiles not need a turret slot but take cap, you could use them in drake fleets to mitigate (they would never fully stop) damage from these fleets but would compromise the cap stability of the ship if left on. Risk v Reward.
might want to give the new cruises some "imperfect" tracking mechanic so that they can't home in onto small moving ships too easily or they'd hard counter light tackle. It'd be cool because this would make AF fleets a viable potential counter to these things. Not to mention the brawler battleships we'll undoubtedly see once micro jump drives are implemented. |
Simon Falls
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.05.14 00:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thanks all for the positive feedback.
I think what the developers would like to hear is if you had this tool available for your Battleship how would you use and abuse the ships and tactics in nullsec?
How would you defend against area of effect damage coming into you with 45 sec of forewarning?
Would you be willing to take small ships into your fleet to protect you battleship assets? (Obviously giving newer players an important role I'd think.)
I think the change would be entirely useful (or at least the option for change as in charge or module), but would this development be in any way gamebreaking? |
Arduemont
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
94
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Posted - 2012.05.14 13:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Well, the obvious defence against fits like these would be be to keep to close range ships, spread points and scrams etc, so that when the new cruise missiles platforms turned up they wouldn't be able to open fire without killing their own fleet in the heat of combat.
You could even use fast disposable ships to burn towards enemy fleets so that the splash damage hit the enemy instead of your fleet. |
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