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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Alex Raptos
Caldari Phoenix Rising.
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Posted - 2009.05.27 14:56:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Originally by: Alex Raptos What do people complain about most regarding empire level fours?
The lack of risk. This, is honestly, all you have to "Fix".
So... Get rid of pushover rats and give them sleeper AI?
They're already planning to do this.
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Alora Venoda
GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:01:00 -
[32]
1. add new deadspace complex agents in space (ie- like COSMOS, but you find them with exploration) heck, why not add some rats guarding them, etc? 2. add missions from these agents that are VERY profitable and not that difficult for your typical level 4 grinder, but they will usually involve lowsec 3. after the missions are completed, the agent moves to a new location
it might not get mission runners out of motsu, but at least it could make exploration a bit more fun...
~~~~~ Remember, EVE is a sandbox and other MMOs are rock gardens. Pretty rocks can be collected, but collecting sand is pointless. Instead build a sandcastle and keep it from being knocked down. |
Darwin Duck
Ihatalo Navy Ihatalo Cartel Navy
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Originally by: Alex Raptos What do people complain about most regarding empire level fours?
The lack of risk. This, is honestly, all you have to "Fix".
So... Get rid of pushover rats and give them sleeper AI?
They said they would gradually add the Sleeper AI to the rest of the universe.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:13:00 -
[34]
Could someone explain what EXACTLY is the problem the OP is trying to solve with their "solution?"
KB KB |
Theocrates
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:17:00 -
[35]
Originally by: KaarBaak
Could someone explain what EXACTLY is the problem the OP is trying to solve with their "solution?"
KB
The OP suggests that repeated mission running in High Sec is too rewarding with the implication that this is the reason Low Sec is seen as too much risk for too little reward. ***By coffee alone I set my mind in motion, by the beans of Java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, by coffee alone I set my mind in motion.*** |
Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:23:00 -
[36]
The easiest way to fix lv. 4 missions is to make rat bounties dependent on system sec. status just like mission payouts are.
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Captain Megadeath
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:23:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Captain Megadeath on 27/05/2009 15:23:37 If it's to much reward for too little risk then why does the OP have to use mummys credit card to sell GTC's for isk?
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Darkerz Reloaded
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:25:00 -
[38]
There is no problem.
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Theocrates
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:29:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kessiaan The easiest way to fix lv. 4 missions is to make rat bounties dependent on system sec. status just like mission payouts are.
This is in effect to some extent already I think. When I ran missions in .6 it was more profitable per ship killed then when I run them now in 1.0. It wasn't enough for me to put up with the lag and desynchs in the mission hub so I relocated. It might be that it needs some better scaling along the way. ***By coffee alone I set my mind in motion, by the beans of Java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, by coffee alone I set my mind in motion.*** |
Amarrlookindude
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:35:00 -
[40]
Enough with whining about other peoples ISK.
Keep you and your ideas in low sec and leave high sec alone!
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:41:00 -
[41]
somethign about level 4's need to be done as there is to much isk involved for the part of space they are in
i have a suggestion that they increase bounty payments but cut all loot from the ship. They still can salvage but if there is no loot in the ship , this boost the mining profession since there is more need for minerals which should mean more faily prices minerals for there time in mining, missions running career is on par with other high sec activities , they keep there level 4's in empire and people will want to venture out to earn more isk in low sec / 0.0 since ratting and plexing in these areas is worth more than your new level 4 mission.
the problem with level 4's IS THE LOOT.it causes problem out of it profession such as mining since i know many people reprocess the stuff they get and use that for example to build stuff which is incroching on other professions.
the benfits to having no loot drops would be:
fairer wage for those mission runners with minmal risk boost in the economy for mining boost in the economy for builders markets will see a fairer price on minerals level 4's stay in empire.
disadvantages would be:
all mission would be less profitable BUT bounties increase and salvage would still offer incentive to keep them running OFFLINE[ONLINE]
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:42:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Theocrates
Originally by: KaarBaak
Could someone explain what EXACTLY is the problem the OP is trying to solve with their "solution?"
KB
The OP suggests that repeated mission running in High Sec is too rewarding with the implication that this is the reason Low Sec is seen as too much risk for too little reward.
That's what I thought. Well then I'd suggest that the OP does not understand why high-sec residents play the game in the manner they do. If I don't want to go to low-sec areas, I won't go. ISK won't encourate me. I play EVE because I enjoy NPC mission running. I enjoy playing the market. I enjoy the comaraderie of my friends.
If that becomes less fun, then I'll move on to some other game. I don't really care how profitable it is. I suspect the thin demographic of hi-sec players that mission purely for the ISK and would be encouraged to travel out to low-sec for the money (and would not be discouraged by the gameplay there) does not outweigh the number of folks that would get bored by the game in that state and would leave the EVE universe altogether.
My stints in low/null sec have shown me that PvP is mind-numbingly boring and pointless to me. I'm sure others feel exactly the opposite. Changing one group's game to accomodate the other seems risky from a business PoV. And fortunately, most MMOs are quite risk-averse in these situations. The good one's are creative and find ways to add more players, rather than focusing on one particular demographic over another.
KB KB |
Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:47:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Armoured C somethign about level 4's need to be done as there is to much isk involved for the part of space they are in
i have a suggestion that they increase bounty payments but cut all loot from the ship. They still can salvage but if there is no loot in the ship , this boost the mining profession since there is more need for minerals which should mean more faily prices minerals for there time in mining, missions running career is on par with other high sec activities , they keep there level 4's in empire and people will want to venture out to earn more isk in low sec / 0.0 since ratting and plexing in these areas is worth more than your new level 4 mission.
the problem with level 4's IS THE LOOT.it causes problem out of it profession such as mining since i know many people reprocess the stuff they get and use that for example to build stuff which is incroching on other professions.
the benfits to having no loot drops would be:
fairer wage for those mission runners with minmal risk boost in the economy for mining boost in the economy for builders markets will see a fairer price on minerals level 4's stay in empire.
disadvantages would be:
all mission would be less profitable BUT bounties increase and salvage would still offer incentive to keep them running
I'd be more on par with removing all standard T1 drops while keeping the named meta 1-4 drops on the same ratio they drop today.
The majority of drops in a mission maybe as much as 60-70% of the cubage are standard T1 that can be produced , so removing those are reasonable.. but meta 1-4 named drops only come from rats and should be kept around as they are. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.27 15:52:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Durzel Just arbitrarily increasing the amount of ISK in everyones wallets doesn't magically solve "the problem" when people collectively have more ISK to spend then prices of everything creep up accordingly. It's basic economics, and lest we forget CCP have an economist on the payroll for pitys sake. Officer mod prices have creeped up consistently across the board yet (afaik) the spawn/drop rate hasn't been changed dramatically. Why is this? People have more ISK to burn than they did years ago.
Yet somehow, prices for T1 and capital ships have kept on falling down. Guess why that is ? Because there's an overabundance of minerals everywhere, which keeps prices abysmally low, in spite of the overall increase of most people's wallets. For better or worse, T1 prices are as good as fixed, they'll only ever going to experience small fluctuations unless CCP changes a lot (and I mean, a LOT) of things.
Originally by: Zeba Mine exploded trying to figure out how that will get mission runners out of high sec. No matter how high the potential reward a typical empire carebear is not going to do anything risky to attain it.
Originally by: Durzel And right there is the reason that "just buff rewards for everything else, it's so simple I dunno why no one else thought of it!" fails completely.
Durzel, it is especially funny to see the cognitive dissonance between THIS text quoted now, and the text you posted right after, quoted as first paragraph in my post : if you are agreeing with the other poster that "carebear missionrunners will never leave highsec no matter how high the rewards elsewhere", then how exactly will that magically and "arbitrarily increase everybody's ISK wallets" ?!?
Suffice to say, you are both wrong, and you are wrong on both accounts. It's almost never about ISK amounts, it was and it will always be mainly about ISK income ratios. The only minor exception is T1 prices, which are, as described above, mostly fixed.
Gameplay-wise, you have two choices : nerf L4 highsec mission income, or buff everything else. On everything except T1, both choices will have the EXACT SAME END-EFFECT. On T1 however, nerfing L4 highsec income will make T1 PVP more costly/painful, while buffing everything else will make it relatively cheaper. Not in ISK amounts, but in time spent "grinding for recovery".
The "buff everything else" alternative also has another advantage : you won't hear the screams of current highsec mission-runners that are too chicken to take better-paying alternatives when presented. If you nerf L4 mission income however, you can be sure to expect a lot more bad feedback.
So yeah, the only logical conclusion would be to buff everything else that needs buffing with regards to L4 mission-running, until they slowly become an activity almost as popular.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:06:00 -
[45]
Originally by: KaarBaak That's what I thought. Well then I'd suggest that the OP does not understand why high-sec residents play the game in the manner they do. If I don't want to go to low-sec areas, I won't go. ISK won't encourate me. I play EVE because I enjoy NPC mission running. I enjoy playing the market. I enjoy the comaraderie of my friends.
Well if you enjoy logging in and running missions, I'm sure you won't mind if two or three in a row take you to lowsec. As a level 5 mission runner living in lowsec, I have to dip my head into nosec every so often to run them. And I do it with a different ship that I know can survive the trip. Yeah it's not my standard pimped out fare, but it does the job.
Originally by: KaarBaak If that becomes less fun, then I'll move on to some other game. I don't really care how profitable it is.
My idea suggests increasing profits for going to lowsec, as you find lowsec missions offer more LP.
Originally by: KaarBaak My stints in low/null sec have shown me that PvP is mind-numbingly boring and pointless to me.
I'm not asking anybody to PVP. Fit for travel and come run a mission. If you start getting probed, make a choice. If ending the mission will save your ship, do it. You can accept another one too.
I have no ulterior motives or anything. Since I do run level 5s, I have no problem with level 4 missions really. But I do have an issue with people who can safely run missions without compromise, while I get thrown about dangerous space.
That isn't fair by proxy.
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:11:00 -
[46]
What would you buff? Level 5 missions?
Its not like 0.0 complexes need buffing, short of dropping on an officer spawn and getting something worthwhile, running a 6/10+ will net you better isk/hour than anything in Eve.
Despite the moans on the forums, those who actually run WH's will know they are making far more isk than your average lvl 4 mission runner could hope for - and this is lvl 3 WH's, accessible from about, i dunno, anywhere... With a couple of friends, i've made billions doing just that and I 100% assure you WH space is well worth the learning curve.
Considering mining is probably the only in-space profession that requires less effort than running lvl 4 missions, i'm not sure thats deserved of a buff.
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:14:00 -
[47]
cutting out the loot from mission whould both bolster other profession since this alone is destroying prices for minerals since you dont even have to mine to get them and named modules hav a higher mineral value than the normal ones.
i see loot as the problem
to adjust so missioners dont get totally ripped off you can just increase the bounty value to slightly compensate the isk loss from module drops
mining you get minerals
mission you get bounties
this is the clear line that you should have. you can have it that belt rats drop loot and that is where you can get your names stuff from so that you still have that names stuff in the market. OFFLINE[ONLINE]
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:17:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: KaarBaak That's what I thought. Well then I'd suggest that the OP does not understand why high-sec residents play the game in the manner they do. If I don't want to go to low-sec areas, I won't go. ISK won't encourate me. I play EVE because I enjoy NPC mission running. I enjoy playing the market. I enjoy the comaraderie of my friends.
Well if you enjoy logging in and running missions, I'm sure you won't mind if two or three in a row take you to lowsec. As a level 5 mission runner living in lowsec, I have to dip my head into nosec every so often to run them. And I do it with a different ship that I know can survive the trip. Yeah it's not my standard pimped out fare, but it does the job.
Originally by: KaarBaak If that becomes less fun, then I'll move on to some other game. I don't really care how profitable it is.
My idea suggests increasing profits for going to lowsec, as you find lowsec missions offer more LP.
Originally by: KaarBaak My stints in low/null sec have shown me that PvP is mind-numbingly boring and pointless to me.
I'm not asking anybody to PVP. Fit for travel and come run a mission. If you start getting probed, make a choice. If ending the mission will save your ship, do it. You can accept another one too.
I have no ulterior motives or anything. Since I do run level 5s, I have no problem with level 4 missions really. But I do have an issue with people who can safely run missions without compromise, while I get thrown about dangerous space.
That isn't fair by proxy.
Which is why I run lvl4's and not Lvl5s. If they do the same thing to Lvl4's , I'll just run lvl3's....or move on to another game.
KB KB |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:18:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth What would you buff?
EVERYTHING. I would want to see a L4 lowsec mission pay at least double, maybe triple that of a L4 highsec mission. A 0.0 mission, anywhere from four to nine times that of the same one in highsec. Same for mining - almost anything you mine in lowsec, at least twice as much, if not three times more than anything you can mine in highsec... 0.0, the very least 4 times, up to 9 times more than in highsec. Belt rats ? Scale bounties up with truesec - a certain particular rat paying 25k ISK in 0.5 would pay 50k ISK in 0.4 to 75k in 0.1 (yes, the EXACT SAME NPC, not another version), 100k in "shallow" 0.0 and up to 225k in "deep" 0.0 - not only that, but the lowsec rats would also drop more salvage, and have a very small chance of T2 salvage (getting larger the lower the system sec)... with deep 0.0 rats all but having as good as a guaranteed T2 salvage drop. And so on and so forth.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Ohmebius
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:31:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Akita T Pfft, the solution exists and should have been obvious to you from your own outburst... ...leaving all highsec untouched and BUFFING EVERYTHING ELSE SIGNIFICANTLY would be the logical choice.
perfectly sensible idea. mucho aprroval
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:36:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Zeba on 27/05/2009 16:36:13
Originally by: Akita T Durzel, it is especially funny to see the cognitive dissonance between THIS text quoted now, and the text you posted right after, quoted as first paragraph in my post : if you are agreeing with the other poster that "carebear missionrunners will never leave highsec no matter how high the rewards elsewhere", then how exactly will that magically and "arbitrarily increase everybody's ISK wallets" ?!?
Hah your clever troll will avail you nothing with me good sir! That 'other poster' is fairly certain that until you make it as safe in low sec/0.0 as it is in high sec you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever see the character type that makes up 80% of the playerbase send so much as a nub scout alt in a free n00b ship to those fabled lands of riches beyond the yellow .5 systems.
Originally by: Akita T So yeah, the only logical conclusion would be to buff everything else that needs buffing with regards to L4 mission-running, until they slowly become an activity almost as popular.
So short term Akita T gets super rich and buys up all the cheap stuff then sits on it till the economy craps out and prices rise like crazy then he sells off all his hoarded stock at profit levels that would make Bill Gates blush. Save it for the CSM threads.
Originally by: Fifinella As to trying to scare me with 0.0/lowsec, well,..... I've been there, and wasn't very scared at all. Only a little.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:36:00 -
[52]
The only possible solution to Hi Sec is to remove CONCORD or nerf it to Faction Navy effectiveness.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:43:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Akita T ...leaving all highsec untouched and BUFFING EVERYTHING ELSE SIGNIFICANTLY would be the logical choice.
This is the only solution that will work. ---
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.05.27 16:48:00 -
[54]
Oh I might also note that the op in this thread is a known bulk isk buyer and could care less what type of hit or buff to income levels are introduced into the game. Inflation too much? Meh just add another gtc to the monthy budget. Besides if the :D at the end didn't give it away. Well..
Originally by: Fifinella As to trying to scare me with 0.0/lowsec, well,..... I've been there, and wasn't very scared at all. Only a little.
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Gunnanmon
Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2009.05.27 17:18:00 -
[55]
ogmomgomg4tw \o/ Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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Gealbhan
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.27 17:24:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Theocrates There is NO solution to the High Sec "Issue". None. There never will be a solution. There are simply too many people who will never leave high sec simply because they PREFER NPC mission running. If you cut the cash value in half most won't leave anyway. If you cut it to the bone in some attempt to increase the "value" of Low Sec all you will do is harm the subscription base. Most will still remain in High Sec if they stay in Eve at all.
You see they don't ENJOY the game in the same method you do. I don't expect most Low Sec people to understand it since its like trying to describe the color blue to someone born with no eyes. You see, they like to shoot NPC ships, buy ships of their own, talk to friends, build stuff, and not have it blown to snot so someone else can have a good day. As long as that's High Sec they will remain there.
That simple. The two play styles can not be reconciled by value adjustments or brute force game mechanics.
The thread should have ended with this statement TBH. Agreed 100%
Originally by: Reven Cordelle What do I do? Well half the time, I'm an Orca Pilot - So absolutely sweet F/A except hit F1 and F2 - sit back and feel my ass grow.
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Roger11
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Posted - 2009.05.27 17:38:00 -
[57]
I don't think CCP can do anything to complicated/drastically different to what people are used to after years of playing without losing a lot of customers.
Best thing they can do imo is small changes like reducing the loot from lvl4s, moving some of the best quality lvl4's to low sec, making the best lvl4 missions more rare, reducing bounties per kill (or even completely remove em?)
As well as that how about increasing the rewards for pvping? You should be able to make a living purely from pvp and the rewards should be better than mind numbingly boring/risk free pve. How to do that though I don't know..bounties on player ships? |
Sepsis Nomil
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:02:00 -
[58]
OK, so I hear all of this whining about lvl4 missions. Let's look at why this path is so popular. I am a relative newbie. I want to be able to relax, play with my pals and make enough money to buy cool hardware. I looked at smuggling; worthless. CCP needs to find a way to make smuggling from low sec to high sec worthwhile. Mining? sure, but it is more of a grind than L4s, and not nearly as profiable. Same with manufacturing. I plan to take a look at wormholes pretty soon, they sound neat. In the mean time I will rack up the cash with L4s, and wait for the improved AI to make them more interesting.
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Mrsticks
Minmatar RNCGM Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:07:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Theocrates There is NO solution to the High Sec "Issue". None. There never will be a solution. There are simply too many people who will never leave high sec simply because they PREFER NPC mission running. If you cut the cash value in half most won't leave anyway. If you cut it to the bone in some attempt to increase the "value" of Low Sec all you will do is harm the subscription base. Most will still remain in High Sec if they stay in Eve at all.
You see they don't ENJOY the game in the same method you do. I don't expect most Low Sec people to understand it since its like trying to describe the color blue to someone born with no eyes. You see, they like to shoot NPC ships, buy ships of their own, talk to friends, build stuff, and not have it blown to snot so someone else can have a good day. As long as that's High Sec they will remain there.
That simple. The two play styles can not be reconciled by value adjustments or brute force game mechanics.
/thread
Long Live TEXAS! Texans join the Texas channel in game plz.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:17:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Durzel on 27/05/2009 18:19:23
Originally by: Akita T Durzel, it is especially funny to see the cognitive dissonance between THIS text quoted now, and the text you posted right after, quoted as first paragraph in my post : if you are agreeing with the other poster that "carebear missionrunners will never leave highsec no matter how high the rewards elsewhere", then how exactly will that magically and "arbitrarily increase everybody's ISK wallets" ?!?
So your awesome solution is to make "L4 lowsec mission pay at least double, maybe triple that of a L4 highsec mission. A 0.0 mission, anywhere from four to nine times that of the same one in highsec". How can you say that with apparently no appreciation of the ramifications for the economy if that occured?
Are pirates currently poor? You talk as if pirates are completely unable to run missions, that no pirate has a mission-running or mining/trading carebear alt. I would submit that the people playing the game who genuinely do not do anything except pirate (i.e. including 0.0 ratting, etc) are very few and far between, most have alts for making ISK to fund their PvP habits, or whatever.
The fact is - if L4 missions are so damn lucrative, what's stopping you running them? Nothing.
Ultimately I don't really know what point you're trying to make - are you saying that people living in low-sec/0.0 are poor and therefore need this "2-3x payout for low-sec, 4-5x payout for null sec" for missions, or are you basically suggesting that doing this would get more people there (i.e. that's what you want).
As has been remarked already, nothing will get the people who resolutely refuse to go into low-sec to go there, short of rewards that covered the cost of losing their ship & fittings at the very least, AND on top of that a profit that surpasses an average L4 mission, and CCP quite clearly could never make low-sec that lucrative because the people who already live there would live kings, and nothing at all would change as far as high-sec mission-running goes.
So you see - I hope - "printing ISK" from your "2-3x payout for low-sec, 4-5x payout for null sec" idea will neither achieve getting carebears en massT into low-sec, all it will achieve is devalue what ISK everyone has in their wallets, pirates & carebears alike. Arbitrarily having more currency coming out of the ISK faucets in the game = knock-on effect for the economy.
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