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Siobhan Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Siobhan Amarr on 27/05/2009 18:54:28 Why is it that the Harb is better in almost every area?
- more slots (extra mid & high) - more turrets (7 v 6) - more grid (1500 v 1300) - more CPU (375 v 350) - more cap (3125 v 2815) - more base armour (5469 v 4883) - more drone bay (50 v 25)
While the prophecy has a v nice 5% armour resist / level versus harb's 5% laser damage / level, the Harb beats it by a large margin everywhere else.
The Prophecy seems to have gotten a bit of a raw deal here, no? IMO they ought to switch their drone bays to account for the less gank & tighter fitting on the proph.
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:51:00 -
[2]
Prophecy does need made better but I don't think the Harbinger needs made worse. Right now its on par with the Myrm, Cane and Drake. --- Its like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Atasuke Saeki
Minmatar The Black Ocean
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:52:00 -
[3]
Well you are missing a key point :) Like all other factions, the rank 1 BCs tend to be noticeably inferior to the rank 2 ones but they were also created a long while before the current "popular" BCs arrived. Cyclone before Hurricane, Ferox before Drake, etc.
Prophecy was created first and then the upgraded BC models came out for each faction, resulting in the original BCs generally falling to the wayside.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:52:00 -
[4]
Originally by: SuiJuris Prophecy does need made better but I don't think the Harbinger needs made worse. Right now its on par with the Myrm, Cane and Drake.
Its noticeably better than any other tier 2 BC. That 5% damage bonus should be switched to ROF.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Siobhan Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:53:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Siobhan Amarr on 27/05/2009 18:55:12 Oh i certainly don't mean to suggest nerfs (though by suggesting switching the drone bays i guess i did :-/).
Just researching Amarr ships in detail for the first time and i was surprised how big the difference between the 2 was.
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Atasuke Saeki
Minmatar The Black Ocean
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:57:00 -
[6]
Some adjustment across the board to make the Tier 1 BCs more attractive compared to their newer counterparts would be nice :)
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:59:00 -
[7]
Edited by: SuiJuris on 27/05/2009 18:59:47
Originally by: RedSplat
Originally by: SuiJuris Prophecy does need made better but I don't think the Harbinger needs made worse. Right now its on par with the Myrm, Cane and Drake.
Its noticeably better than any other tier 2 BC. That 5% damage bonus should be switched to ROF.
Um ROF bonuses are BETTER then damage bonuses. A damage bonus increases your damage by said percent so 5% makes you do 125% damage.
ROF decreases the cool down time, so instead of doing 100 damage every 10 seconds you do 100 damage every 7.5 seconds. So in 30 seconds you fire 4 times for 400 damage, where as the damage boosted ship fires 3 times f0r 125 damage.
400>375 (dur typo)
Also if you look at the tank to gank ratio against a properly fitted drake / cane its pretty close. I think if you go glass cannon the Harby puts out the most dps though. The Myrm falls short but is more multipurpose. --- Its like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Neacail
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Posted - 2009.05.27 19:15:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Atasuke Saeki Some adjustment across the board to make the Tier 1 BCs more attractive compared to their newer counterparts would be nice :)
Ferox is quite nice. Surpassed by the Drake in almost every way, sure, but it makes sense considering their price tags.
Cyclone is awesome. For general purpose, the Hurricane beats it, but I'd say it's the best tier 1 BC and almost on par with tier 2 ones.
Brutix is an amazing gank boat. Any buffs to it would go into CS territory IMO.
Prophecy. Well, all it does is tank. It's the only one I would consider 'bad'. But what it does, it does well.
I think they're pretty balanced overall. Harbinger is, as mentioned, arguably the best tier 2 BC. Makes sense that Amarr gets the worst tier 1 one.
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Kurfin
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Posted - 2009.05.27 20:37:00 -
[9]
Since tanking is what the Proph does best; a bit more base armor (maybe more structure too), and an extra low slot with a little extra CPU and grid to take advantage of it.
I would be nice to see all the tier 1 BCs boosted so they are equal to the tier 2 ones. The trouble for the Proph is that the other tier 1 BCs do something different to their tier 2 counterparts. Sadly we have just one approach to war ships, take large chunk of armor and strap lasers to it, which means the Proph and the Harby do pretty much the same thing. Just that the Harby does everything better.
In the Proph's defence though it is still a capable lvl 3 mission runner, while being a good chunk cheaper than the Harby for newer players. And it's lack of a laser damage bonus means you're not losing anything by fitting projectile weapons, should the situation call for Kin and Exp damage.
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Chestrano
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Posted - 2009.05.27 20:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: SuiJuris Edited by: SuiJuris on 27/05/2009 18:59:47
Originally by: RedSplat
Originally by: SuiJuris
ROF decreases the cool down time, so instead of doing 100 damage every 10 seconds you do 100 damage every 7.5 seconds. So in 30 seconds you fire 4 times for 400 damage, where as the damage boosted ship fires 3 times f0r 125 damage.
If you coul Fire 4 times with rof bonus in the same time you would fire without rof bonus 3 times, you would have an ROF bonus of 33%, but you have only 25%! your calculationproblem is, that 1/125 is 0,8 not 0,75!
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.27 20:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Atasuke Saeki Well you are missing a key point :) Like all other factions, the rank 1 BCs tend to be noticeably inferior to the rank 2 ones but they were also created a long while before the current "popular" BCs arrived. Cyclone before Hurricane, Ferox before Drake, etc.
Prophecy was created first and then the upgraded BC models came out for each faction, resulting in the original BCs generally falling to the wayside.
The thing is other races get two pretty different tiers of BCs...
* Minmatar get a Tier 1 BC aimed primarily for projectiles (with some missile help) and active shield tanking, and a Tier 2 BC that's extremely versatile, being able to be fitted both with light shield buffer tank, nearly cap - independent plated setups, strong active armor tanks, sniping or very high DPS close range...both also get nice drone bays.
* The Gallente get both their BCs bonused for active armor tanks, tho the Brutix is a hybrid platform, while the Myrm is primarily a Drone boat...both get excellent drone bandwidth/bays for their class, and their Tier 2 BC is VERY versatile, as most drone boats...also the Myrm is easily heavy tanked, while the Brutix is more of a ganker than a tanker...
* The Caldari have one missile boat and one turret boat - totally different approaches on the same subject. The Drake might outperform the Ferox on nearly everything, yet the Ferox is good enough for the caldari turret enthusiasts IMHO...(at least with T2 blasters)...
That leaves us with the Amarr BCs, which are nearly identical in base stats, featuring the same weapon platform, and with the harbi getting moar of everything but resists - the thing is, it gets so much moar, it always outperforms the Prophecy unless we are talking plated bait ships...moar gank, moar mid slots, moar drone bay and bandwidth...
The Prophecy is the BC equivalent of the pre-boosted Apoc...I don't know weather boosting it apoc-wise (substitute the cap usage bonus with a range bonus and built in moar cap) would fix it They could give it moar drones or give it one extra turret hardpoint with some fitting to support it... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.05.27 20:49:00 -
[12]
Edited by: SuiJuris on 27/05/2009 20:52:07 ROF bonus is better then a Damage bonus because it Reduces the Module Duration, it is infact a 33% increase in damage, thats the entire point I was making.
Tell you what, Hop in EFT, pull up a abaddon and a Armegeddon, Put 1 Mega Pulse 1 on each, set the skills to all lvl 5 and tell me which one does more damage.
If you coul Fire 4 times with rof bonus in the same time you would fire without rof bonus 3 times, you would have an ROF bonus of 33%, but you have only 25%! your calculationproblem is, that 1/125 is 0,8 not 0,75!
--- Its like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.27 20:52:00 -
[13]
Switch their dronebays? wtf? Don't do drugs plz. This will make harbinger worse and prophecy will still suck. So everyone loses. --
Originally by: Jasper Dark
I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
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Chestrano
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Posted - 2009.05.27 20:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: SuiJuris Edited by: SuiJuris on 27/05/2009 20:52:07 ROF bonus is better then a Damage bonus because it Reduces the Module Duration, it is infact a 33% increase in damage, thats the entire point I was making.
Tell you what, Hop in EFT, pull up a abaddon and a Armegeddon, Put 1 Mega Pulse 1 on each, set the skills to all lvl 5 and tell me which one does more damage.
If you coul Fire 4 times with rof bonus in the same time you would fire without rof bonus 3 times, you would have an ROF bonus of 33%, but you have only 25%! your calculationproblem is, that 1/125 is 0,8 not 0,75!
o0. Looks like you are right. EFT Agrees with you. Im Not sure if this is an intern calculation problem or an real existing bug in eve.
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Vyllana
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Posted - 2009.05.27 21:10:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Vyllana on 27/05/2009 21:10:37
Originally by: Chestrano
Originally by: SuiJuris Edited by: SuiJuris on 27/05/2009 20:52:07 ROF bonus is better then a Damage bonus because it Reduces the Module Duration, it is infact a 33% increase in damage, thats the entire point I was making.
Tell you what, Hop in EFT, pull up a abaddon and a Armegeddon, Put 1 Mega Pulse 1 on each, set the skills to all lvl 5 and tell me which one does more damage.
If you coul Fire 4 times with rof bonus in the same time you would fire without rof bonus 3 times, you would have an ROF bonus of 33%, but you have only 25%! your calculationproblem is, that 1/125 is 0,8 not 0,75!
o0. Looks like you are right. EFT Agrees with you. Im Not sure if this is an intern calculation problem or an real existing bug in eve.
Lol, hilarious how the most basic math totally escapes some people.
Anyway, ROF bonus does (and is intended to) provide more dps than an equivalent damage bonus. This is counterbalanced by the fact that a ROF bonus also means that you are using more ammo and/or cap. Your alpha is also lower with a ROF bonus than a damage bonus.
As for the tier 1 BCs, yes they need boosts, and not only the prophecy.
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Paladin79
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Posted - 2009.05.27 22:35:00 -
[16]
The prophecy needs a lot of love would be nice to drop the 10% energy use bounus to a 5% damage bounus. It also needs a higher cap rechargh rate bring it up to 600persec inline with the brutix or even faster 550 persec would make it a far more usefull ship.
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Wideen
Warped Mining Strip Mining Club
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Posted - 2009.05.27 22:37:00 -
[17]
[Prophecy, lolabsolution] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Heat Sink II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M [empty high slot]
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Warrior II x5
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Chestrano
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Posted - 2009.05.27 22:49:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Chestrano on 27/05/2009 22:56:17 Edited by: Chestrano on 27/05/2009 22:54:31 Edited by: Chestrano on 27/05/2009 22:52:44 Edited by: Chestrano on 27/05/2009 22:52:09
Originally by: Vyllana Edited by: Vyllana on 27/05/2009 21:10:37
Lol, hilarious how the most basic math totally escapes some people.
Its not an math problem but an description problem. 5% increase of Rate of fire and 5% reduction of time between two shots (tb2s) arent the same things. An reduction of the tb2s of 25% has an 33% increase effect to the ROF (in 3 secs you shoot 3 times if you have an tb2s of 1 s. If you have an tb2s of .75 secs you shoot 4 times. This is an increase of 33% or: 1/0.75= 1.333333 not 1.25 )
The description says, the RoF is increased by 25%, but its the tb2s thats deceased by 25% if the calculation of EFT is true.
And your posting was an personal attack. Please think about this next time.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.05.27 23:03:00 -
[19]
The maller and prophecy should be turned over to the khanid and become armor tanking missile boats.
How the hell are you supposed to practice or spec for the damnation and sacralege when there is no t1 varient that preforms the same way?
(The absolution has the harbinger for a t1 equivalent.)
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.05.27 23:08:00 -
[20]
Chest I assure you the ROF being better then a damage bonus is working AS intended. --- Its like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.05.27 23:20:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Zeba on 27/05/2009 23:22:55 Prophecy is all about the tanky budget pew pew applications unlike the Harbs almost purely damage focused role. With 160k ehp if your gang can't make it to you from the other side of the galaxy before you run out of buffer then you need a new gang.
Edit: Forgot to add that if you have a slave set in your head it bumps the ehp up to 235k.
[Prophecy, Budget Commandship/Bait] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Warrior II x5
Originally by: Fifinella As to trying to scare me with 0.0/lowsec, well,..... I've been there, and wasn't very scared at all. Only a little.
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Vyllana
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Posted - 2009.05.27 23:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita The maller and prophecy should be turned over to the khanid and become armor tanking missile boats.
How the hell are you supposed to practice or spec for the damnation and sacralege when there is no t1 varient that preforms the same way?
(The absolution has the harbinger for a t1 equivalent.)
Good idea if you ask me. Of course it would also imply that Amarr need a missile-using tech 1 battleship as well (they already have one such frigate).
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.05.27 23:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Vyllana
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita The maller and prophecy should be turned over to the khanid and become armor tanking missile boats.
How the hell are you supposed to practice or spec for the damnation and sacralege when there is no t1 varient that preforms the same way?
(The absolution has the harbinger for a t1 equivalent.)
Good idea if you ask me. Of course it would also imply that Amarr need a missile-using tech 1 battleship as well (they already have one such frigate).
Nah no need for an ammar missile spammer when the current lineup is so much total pwnage. Now the proph and maller getting launchers would get my vote as it would make training missiles early pay off and be moar incentive to do caldari cross training later on. Currently about the only real benefit of going pure amarr/caldari are the sansha ships moast notibly the awe inspiring nightmare.
Originally by: Fifinella As to trying to scare me with 0.0/lowsec, well,..... I've been there, and wasn't very scared at all. Only a little.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.27 23:58:00 -
[24]
As has been pointed out, in the other cases the Tier 1 does something different to the Tier 2 so although they have less slots they still have a role.
The Proph has a resist bonus and a cap use bonus which isn't tremendously useful imo (I dunno... can you run lasers and a neut?).
Is "Being quite tough to shoot at and begging to have off-racial guns fitted" a role as such?
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.05.27 23:59:00 -
[25]
I dont think the poeple who use the maller or the prophecy would complain too much because the small pvp niche both those ships exist in is as stupid bait buffer tanks. You could still fit them to that role.
And then at that point it would imply that one of the battleships should be a missile boat. I dont think thats neccesary though. All the t1 ammar bs are very nice. People would not be hapy to see one of them change. Let the khanid have a nice selection of sub-bs ships and let the lazor navy field the big ships.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.28 00:08:00 -
[26]
A Khanid BS is definitely needed.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.05.28 01:28:00 -
[27]
I wasn't intending a 5% ROF bonus
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.05.28 07:11:00 -
[28]
i always thought the tier1 bc's needed some loving (exept maybe the brutix) and the one needing it most being the prophecy
also i always felt that the maller and the prophecy would be quite interesting ships if do a reverse khanid on them missile spewing prophecy and maller (with turret slots kept for the people that like to fit projectiles)
would also help with the whole Hey i have an idea, lets take a random ship with guns, gut it completly, make some holes in it so it can be a missile ship instead, then lets bolt some more engines on it and finaly stuff it with something utterly diffrent that what used to be in there exept for 1 thing
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.28 08:36:00 -
[29]
Edited by: The Djego on 28/05/2009 08:37:19
Originally by: Neacail
Originally by: Atasuke Saeki Some adjustment across the board to make the Tier 1 BCs more attractive compared to their newer counterparts would be nice :)
Ferox is quite nice. Surpassed by the Drake in almost every way, sure, but it makes sense considering their price tags.
Cyclone is awesome. For general purpose, the Hurricane beats it, but I'd say it's the best tier 1 BC and almost on par with tier 2 ones.
Brutix is an amazing gank boat. Any buffs to it would go into CS territory IMO.
Prophecy. Well, all it does is tank. It's the only one I would consider 'bad'. But what it does, it does well.
I think they're pretty balanced overall. Harbinger is, as mentioned, arguably the best tier 2 BC. Makes sense that Amarr gets the worst tier 1 one.
Ferox is only nice if you have no Missle skills or need instant damage at range.
Cyclone is actualy nice, still I wish most of the time it would have 6/3 instead 5/4 and a little more CPU.
I personaly would like a utility high Slot on the Brutix(for Nos/Neut or Heatsink), being close in performace to the Astarte is nice, but nothing special(since the Tier 2 BC is a Droneboat and it is also true for CS vs Tier2 BC for all other races) and the Astarte/Deimos are not this hot to beginn with(since they try to do the same as bigger ships and fail at it against them -> close range gank).
Prophecy is nice as a bait, for everyting else the Harbinger is supperior, it should be like a Abaddon(Laser cap bonus switched for damage bonus, same as the Maller). It does not make sense that it is crap like this, Prophecy/Maller were also sugested to change 1.5 years ago in the big Amarr buff but where not changed at all(sadly, since i like the "Fat Bird" for his look).
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Forando
Interstellar Cowards
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Posted - 2009.05.28 10:13:00 -
[30]
I would have to agree that the Prophecy is below average. But with the solid Harbinger, I can not picture any changes that would make it the Battle Cruiser of choice for any situation - I believe it will always remain in the Harbingers shadow.
I see it (+ Cylone and Ferox) as the cheap-man's imaginary Command Ship, and nothing else. At least the Brutix can be a mean whale in a gang, but the rest of the Tier 1 BCs just seems out-phased and purpose-less. Sadly.
--- Enjoy, and fly safe.. |
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