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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.04 20:17:00 -
[1]
The crow is an awesome interceptor, I love flying it, and killing people who underestimate it. It could, however, in my opinion, use a little boost in EHP. Let's compare the 4 fighter interceptors in terms of EHP. This is on a blank fit, with all skills at level 5:
- Claw - 1989 EHP
- Taranis - 2322 EHP
- Crusader - 2334 EHP
- Crow - 1856 EHP
As you can see, the crow has about 140 EHP less than the next worst thing. This is further exacerbated by its very weak structure, as the single best tanking module you can fit is a damage control. With a single Damage Control II the picture is even worse:
- Claw - 3135 EHP
- Taranis - 3876 EHP
- Crusader - 3718 EHP
- Crow - 2734 EHP
To add insult to injury, the crow sports a 0% EM resist on its shields!
I suggest boosting the crow's EHP just a little bit by giving it 100 more structure and a native 20% shield resistance to EM.
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Fifi LeFume
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.06.04 20:20:00 -
[2]
The additional EHP seems alright, though i dont think it should get 20% to EM shield resist.
Every race has a resist hole, and it should stay that way. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.04 20:21:00 -
[3]
Quote:
To add insult to injury, the crow sports a 0% EM resist on its shields!
You realise that is included in the EHP calculations?
Now compare the locking range: Claw - Neglectable Taranis - Average Crusader - Average Crow - Huge |
Poses
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Posted - 2009.06.04 20:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote:
To add insult to injury, the crow sports a 0% EM resist on its shields!
You realise that is included in the EHP calculations?
Now compare the locking range: Claw - Neglectable Taranis - Average Crusader - Average Crow - Huge
yeah but the claw is clearly the best cuz it gets moar structure and more em resist |
Sepelio Fas
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Posted - 2009.06.04 20:43:00 -
[5]
I have to disagree with the op mainly because the crow has an incredible advantage when it comes to PvP engagements, mainly missles. All the other interceptors are pretty much assed out of the ability to do damage by the fact that turrets cannot track for beans while moving at 3k+/s. And as for the em resist gallente and amarr also have a 0% em resist but all 3 of the non minnie races have that 10% somewhere else. As far as EHP goes well I honestly think EHP is a highly misleading indicator of a ships durability. Kill mails always have ships taking far far less damage than their EHP would indicate. Since Interceptors are something that will in all likely be one or two shotted by anything that gets a decent hit on them I think the durability factor is almost a moot point. Not having researched actual kill board stats on the average damage each interceptor is capable of taking I'm not 100% sure on this but I think that that would be a much better indicator than EFT stats. |
aceoalt
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Posted - 2009.06.04 20:43:00 -
[6]
Edited by: aceoalt on 04/06/2009 20:43:50 Every interceptor you just compared it with is intended to operate a LOT closer than the Crow. Try stepping away from EFT for 5 minutes sometime. If the enemy is landing hits on me in ANY interceptor that miniscule difference in EHP is the least of my worries
Edit: wrong character. Argh. |
Tza Omi
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Posted - 2009.06.04 20:47:00 -
[7]
And EHP is important to a crow why? I mean if you're flying it right, very little can hit it. Orbiting at warp disruptor range cap stable with the mwd running and pounding away with missiles.
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Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2009.06.04 21:03:00 -
[8]
another Caldari whine/troll.
Please read the above responses. But, you are so right, you should have no resist hole to fill. Afterall, thermal damage is hardly ever seen in pvp engagements. Who needs a resist bonus for that? For 500 more "EHP" (which would mean so much) I'm sure you would be willing to give up your lock range, the range of your light missiles, and the trackingless hit ability with decent explosion velocity. Right?
In exchange you should get a another bonus stat as well, maybe get a 5% bonus for damage from say, rockets!! Rockets are just awesome!! Who needs light missile launchers when you could pound your targets with the ultimate anti-frigate/anti-drone weapon that is, the rocket!!
/me also going back under my bridge now. But that doesn't lessen the fail in your whine.
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.04 21:42:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Faffywaffy on 04/06/2009 21:44:02 Edited by: Faffywaffy on 04/06/2009 21:42:16 Guys (and gals), I'm not some newb or a rookie interceptor pilot (killboard link). Don't assume I am one because I am saying things that contradict the "accepted" opinion. The "accepted" opinion is usually wrong.
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote:
To add insult to injury, the crow sports a 0% EM resist on its shields!
You realise that is included in the EHP calculations?
Yes, but a resist hole is worse than no hole with the same EHP. I would rather have (for example) 50%/50% EM/Thermal resist than 100%/0%.
Originally by: Furb Killer
Now compare the locking range: Claw - Neglectable Taranis - Average Crusader - Average Crow - Huge
Locking range is important, but not as important for a damage-dealing interceptor. The missile crow is horrible as a damage dealer, and for a rocket crow, the locking range is not as important.
Originally by: Sepelio Fas I have to disagree with the op mainly because the crow has an incredible advantage when it comes to PvP engagements, mainly missles. All the other interceptors are pretty much assed out of the ability to do damage by the fact that turrets cannot track for beans while moving at 3k+/s.
The missile crow would still do less damage. The only viable damage dealer fit for a crow is a rocket crow.
Originally by: Sepelio Fas And as for the em resist gallente and amarr also have a 0% em resist but all 3 of the non minnie races have that 10% somewhere else.
Yes, they have a 0% SHIELD EM resist, but they are ARMOR tankers.
Originally by: Sepelio Fas As far as EHP goes well I honestly think EHP is a highly misleading indicator of a ships durability. ... Since Interceptors are something that will in all likely be one or two shotted by anything that gets a decent hit on them I think the durability factor is almost a moot point.
A fighter interceptor is not going to be instapopped in a fight against other interceptors. Neither will it be instapopped by larger ships, if it flown properly.
Originally by: aceoalt Edited by: aceoalt on 04/06/2009 20:43:50 Every interceptor you just compared it with is intended to operate a LOT closer than the Crow. Try stepping away from EFT for 5 minutes sometime. If the enemy is landing hits on me in ANY interceptor that miniscule difference in EHP is the least of my worries
See missile crow comments above.
Originally by: Lili Lu another Caldari whine/troll. Please read the above responses. But, you are so right, you should have no resist hole to fill. Afterall, thermal damage is hardly ever seen in pvp engagements. Who needs a resist bonus for that? For 500 more "EHP" (which would mean so much) I'm sure you would be willing to give up your lock range, the range of your light missiles, and the trackingless hit ability with decent explosion velocity. Right?
In exchange you should get a another bonus stat as well, maybe get a 5% bonus for damage from say, rockets!! Rockets are just awesome!! Who needs light missile launchers when you could pound your targets with the ultimate anti-frigate/anti-drone weapon that is, the rocket!!
/me also going back under my bridge now. But that doesn't lessen the fail in your whine.
I am not whining, nor am I trolling. I'm a very experienced interceptor pilot, so at least try to take me seriously. You're welcome to try and refute my arguments, but don't call me names.
Yes, I would gladly give up my locking range (set to 25-30km would be fine). I wasn't asking for 500 more EHP. I was asking for about 150-200 more. Rockets are awesome, and are the only weapon I would fit on a crow. That is one of the crow's advantages. The question is - do its advantages outweigh the disadvantages. My opinion is that the crow should have less EHP than the others, but slightly more than it has now. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.04 21:47:00 -
[10]
Quote: I'm a very experienced interceptor pilot
Here i stopped taking you serious.
Crow is not a high dps ceptor. If you want to compare it to them, you might start by increasing its dps. But really, the crow just is completely different from a taranis for example, you cant compare them on one point.
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.04 22:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: I'm a very experienced interceptor pilot
Here i stopped taking you serious.
Crow is not a high dps ceptor. If you want to compare it to them, you might start by increasing its dps. But really, the crow just is completely different from a taranis for example, you cant compare them on one point.
Crow is not a high-dps ceptor if you fit it for long range (missiles). Neither would the other interceptors be high-dps if you fit them for long range. If you fit it for short range (rockets), it becomes a high-dps ceptor.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.04 22:16:00 -
[12]
Rockets are crap, first rockets should be fixed before you change ships who would want to use them.
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Spectre3353
Gallente The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2009.06.04 22:28:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Spectre3353 on 04/06/2009 22:28:03
Originally by: Faffywaffy Guys (and gals), I'm not some newb or a rookie interceptor pilot (killboard link).
I followed your link and noticed that you are able to fly and have kills listed for an interceptor from every race, including the Taranis. So my question is, if you can fly a Taranis, why would you ever fly another interceptor where damage/EHP/resist holes are important? Flying a rocket Crow instead of a blasteranis in itself is the bigger problem here. Having variety in ships is nice so do not try to make them all the same and of the same effectiveness. Rather, fly the ship more appropriate to what you are trying to do.
You want an interceptor with good EHP that you can solo in? Stop flying a Crow. ----- The Python Cartel - My Pirate Blog |
Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.04 22:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Furb Killer Rockets are crap, first rockets should be fixed before you change ships who would want to use them.
According to you. In my experience rockets are very good.
Originally by: Spectre3353 Edited by: Spectre3353 on 04/06/2009 22:28:03
Originally by: Faffywaffy Guys (and gals), I'm not some newb or a rookie interceptor pilot (killboard link).
I followed your link and noticed that you are able to fly and have kills listed for an interceptor from every race, including the Taranis. So my question is, if you can fly a Taranis, why would you ever fly another interceptor where damage/EHP/resist holes are important? Flying a rocket Crow instead of a blasteranis in itself is the bigger problem here. Having variety in ships is nice so do not try to make them all the same and of the same effectiveness. Rather, fly the ship more appropriate to what you are trying to do.
You want an interceptor with good EHP that you can solo in? Stop flying a Crow.
- A rocket crow kills a standard fit taranis.
- A taranis is good for soloing cruisers. Against other interceptors it is quite useless as you will never get a fight in the first place.
We're getting kind of off-topic here, though.
I am not trying to make every interceptor the same. How would you get that idea? All I asked was a very small boost to the crow's EHP, which I feel is appropriate.
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Stil Harkonnen
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Posted - 2009.06.05 00:37:00 -
[15]
don't whine about how sucky the crow is then brag about how your claw can kill a standard fit taranis...
and to derail this thread, taranis are amazing. my corp mate embarassed a hurricane with one. Ransomed it to spare it the solo interceptor on the killmail
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 00:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Stil Harkonnen don't whine about how sucky the crow is then brag about how your claw can kill a standard fit taranis...
and to derail this thread, taranis are amazing. my corp mate embarassed a hurricane with one. Ransomed it to spare it the solo interceptor on the killmail
You need glasses. I never said the crow is sucky. I never said a claw can kill a standard fit taranis -- I said a rocket crow can do that.
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Stil Harkonnen
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Posted - 2009.06.05 00:48:00 -
[17]
wow you're right I accidentally put claw instead of crow.
The way I see it, the crow is supposed to be used sorta at a long range. I guess you could argue that al interceptors should be used like that for tackling, but the crow in particular has no use to get up close and personal. So they get a larger locking range and a slight decrease in EHP. Now in an interceptor, if you're getting hit at all, a couple extra hitpoints aren't going to dramatically change the fight in your favor. Seems a little unnecessary to change this.
Now all of this could also be bull **** cause i fly gallente and don't even have the skills to fly interceptors. |
Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 00:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Stil Harkonnen wow you're right I accidentally put claw instead of crow.
The way I see it, the crow is supposed to be used sorta at a long range. I guess you could argue that al interceptors should be used like that for tackling, but the crow in particular has no use to get up close and personal. So they get a larger locking range and a slight decrease in EHP. Now in an interceptor, if you're getting hit at all, a couple extra hitpoints aren't going to dramatically change the fight in your favor. Seems a little unnecessary to change this.
Now all of this could also be bull **** cause i fly gallente and don't even have the skills to fly interceptors.
The crow is a fighter interceptor. If you put missiles on it, it doesn't do any dps, is a poor tackler (no disruptor range bonus, no firm tackle), and dies to any other interceptor. A missile crow is a waste of a crow. I'm repeating myself, but in an interceptor fight (and to a lesser degree when tackling something larger), the few extra hitpoints do matter.
You're right about your last point, though. |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.06.05 01:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Faffywaffy
is a poor tackler (no disruptor range bonus, no firm tackle),
28km is more than enough to tackle; the "tacklier" interceptors struggle with their poorly designed targeting range, making them sub par in comparison to the real interceptors. |
Stil Harkonnen
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Posted - 2009.06.05 01:08:00 -
[20]
I guess if it's the fighter interceptor of the pair then I can see why you bring this up. However, the way I see it, it fights from long range thus the less hp.
eh you could argue both sides of this argument fairly well |
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 01:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Faffywaffy
is a poor tackler (no disruptor range bonus, no firm tackle),
28km is more than enough to tackle; the "tacklier" interceptors struggle with their poorly designed targeting range, making them sub par in comparison to the real interceptors.
28km is overheated, so you can't hold that indefinitely. It's also well inside heavy neut range, so you can't tackle neut BSes, which is one of the few niches that long range tacklers are useful at. The stiletto is infinitely better at that role.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.06.05 01:40:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 05/06/2009 01:40:24
Originally by: Faffywaffy
28km is overheated, so you can't hold that indefinitely. It's also well inside heavy neut range, so you can't tackle neut BSes, which is one of the few niches that long range tacklers are useful at. The stiletto is infinitely better at that role.
28km is not "well inside"heavy neut range
Yes, they can tackle a single target better. Assuming you fit sensor boosters.
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 01:49:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 05/06/2009 01:40:24
Originally by: Faffywaffy
28km is overheated, so you can't hold that indefinitely. It's also well inside heavy neut range, so you can't tackle neut BSes, which is one of the few niches that long range tacklers are useful at. The stiletto is infinitely better at that role.
28km is not "well inside"heavy neut range
Yes, they can tackle a single target better. Assuming you fit sensor boosters.
I just realized you're going to say that as I hit the submit button. You can't orbit at 28km and expect to hold the point - the target will be able to get out of range. So you have to orbit at 26km or so, and then you will get into neut range and you will be neuted. |
Monticore D'Muertos
Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2009.06.05 02:54:00 -
[24]
i can fly a ranis/crow/claw but i instead fly a rifter to kill ceptor pilots, go figure.
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Jared D'Uroth
Universal Peace Operation
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Posted - 2009.06.05 04:45:00 -
[25]
If you don't like it, fly something else.
You think 100 EHP is going to be the difference? ===
Originally by: RedSplat
Originally by: Insurgo Malvir No, but acting like i want + pirate's positive standing = he don't pod me.
Logical Fallacy detected
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 07:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jared D'Uroth If you don't like it, fly something else.
You think 100 EHP is going to be the difference?
Quite an argument you have there. You win, I guess.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.05 07:30:00 -
[27]
Quote: In my experience rockets are very good.
To put it blunt, your experience is wrong.
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Faffywaffy
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Posted - 2009.06.05 07:49:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: In my experience rockets are very good.
To put it blunt, your experience is wrong.
To put it bluntly, take a look at my corporation's killboard. The only interceptor I'm hesitant to engage in a rocket crow is a pulse crusader. |
Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.06.05 08:12:00 -
[29]
Instead of buff here and nerf there, make one ceptor for all races.
Forget diversity of strengths and weaknesses and the power of crosstraining.
No more whining then. Period. |
Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.06.05 08:18:00 -
[30]
you have turret slots, fly it like a tristan tbh - MY LATEST VIDEO - FRIGANK 6 |
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