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Esna Pitoojee
Amarr TalCorp Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.07 19:00:00 -
[1]
If you haven't heard it by now, here it is: The Khanid Kingdom has been granted a seat on the Privy Council of Empress Jamyl I, an honor it has not held since Khanid II broke from the Empire all that time ago.
In my eyes, this is good in two manners: First, it unifies a split that has been aching in the Empire since it was torn open.
Second, it shows that the most conservative elements in the Empire - those who would refuse the Khanids return to the Empire because of one man's actions, or worse, because of their birth-line, are no longer entirely in control. |
Ouro Akala
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Posted - 2009.06.07 19:11:00 -
[2]
I am no expert on the workings of Amarrian government, but if the Privy Council is composed of heirs of the Houses, and each heir can in the wake of the Emperor's or Empress' death be chosen as his or her successor, does this mean that House Khanid is now also entitled to bring forth it's candidate to the throne? |
Koronakesh
Amarr The Synenose Accord
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Posted - 2009.06.07 19:31:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ouro Akala I am no expert on the workings of Amarrian government, but if the Privy Council is composed of heirs of the Houses, and each heir can in the wake of the Emperor's or Empress' death be chosen as his or her successor, does this mean that House Khanid is now also entitled to bring forth it's candidate to the throne?
The Privy Council is not just Heirs. It is composed of fifteen members, representing the Royal Families and important organizations in the Empire, such as the Theology Council. Being granted a seat on the Privy Council does not necessarily mean Khanid II or his family can contend for the Throne, and the Empress made no such comments in her announcement, so I'm inclined to assume no.
The Kingdom is remaining a separate, autonomous nation, despite this event. Khanid II will continue ruling over his domain as he has for the last three centuries. He is being rewarded for the Kingdom's exceptional assistance in these trying times, and for the securing of Karsoth.
But the most important thing: let's all pray there will be more Khanid women inclined to go exploring outside the Kingdom. Thank God there's already no shortage of them, but more can never hurt.
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Leina Kubyeshev
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Posted - 2009.06.07 20:20:00 -
[4]
I've been waiting for this day for sixty years. May the empire and the kingdom form yet closer relationships. We have so much to learn from our old brothers |
Paulus Abath
Amarr Khanid Unionist Movement Holy Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.07 20:22:00 -
[5]
The exact position of the Kingdom amongst the Chosen will depend on whether House Khanid will be counted amongst the Privy Council proper or the extended Privy Council. However, the wording would suggest the former, as the extended Privy Council does not often meet. This does by no means suggest that the Royal House is again part of the succession - while this far the two have coincided, Councillorship and a place in the Imperial Succession are not the same thing. In any case, this is a great day for all of us Unionists who have prayed and hoped for a closer relationship between the Kingdom and the Empire. Our faith for a better tomorrow is now stronger than ever. Three hundred years is a long time even for True Amarr to be separated from our brothers in Mother Amarr. Perchance within the next three hundred years we are again truly one.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.07 21:26:00 -
[6]
My initial reaction is that this is a useful step on the road to the Kingdom being reintegrated into the Empire.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen A.R.K.
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Posted - 2009.06.07 22:15:00 -
[7]
Years ago some of us have been talking about reunification and been called dreamers, fools or outright heretics. However time has changed and people both inside the Empire and in the Kingdom realized we are one people. Like Garum and Zakara we are brothers. Brothers in faith, brothers in blood.
The excesses of a misguided path we are going to leave behind. We are still far away from perfection. A lot of things still need to be corrected but with big steps we are getting closer. With fear of God we will continue our quest but for the rest of this day I'll grant myself a short break - may God forgive me - to celebrate another milestone achieved. |
Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2009.06.08 04:20:00 -
[8]
My my, but let's not forget that seat on the Privy Council does not equal sanctioned Heir (by Jamyl, at least)
I would certainly be interested in what I can assume were rather heated discussions during the days of meetings. I'd wager no small amount of money that behind the unified front on the steps of the Imperial Palace more than one were none too pleased about this....
Of course, this is still an interesting turn of events! |
Opera Noir
Amarr State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.06.08 06:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rodj Blake My initial reaction is that this is a useful step on the road to the Kingdom being reintegrated into the Empire.
I belive this to be extremely unlikely. Why would our King submit his now wholly independent kingdom to another's power and rule. What has happened is merely a recognition of King Khanid's right to influence the leadership of the Amarr Empire and with that our joint destinies are now more secured.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.08 07:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Opera Noir
Originally by: Rodj Blake My initial reaction is that this is a useful step on the road to the Kingdom being reintegrated into the Empire.
I belive this to be extremely unlikely. Why would our King submit his now wholly independent kingdom to another's power and rule. What has happened is merely a recognition of King Khanid's right to influence the leadership of the Amarr Empire and with that our joint destinies are now more secured.
Why would Khanid II submit to the rule of another? For the good of the Kingdom and the Empire.
You talk about Khanid II's right to influence the Empire, but you seem to forget about the Empire's right to influence the Kingdom. I not believe that the Privy Council and the Empress would have agreed to this without some prospect of it eventually bringing the Kingdom back into the Empire, where it belongs. |
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Opera Noir
Amarr State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.06.08 09:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Why would Khanid II submit to the rule of another? For the good of the Kingdom and the Empire.
You talk about Khanid II's right to influence the Empire, but you seem to forget about the Empire's right to influence the Kingdom. I not believe that the Privy Council and the Empress would have agreed to this without some prospect of it eventually bringing the Kingdom back into the Empire, where it belongs.
The reabsorption of Khanid into the Empire would be good for neither. The very idea is vile. King Khanid and our people fought for our independence and our King chose life rather then submit to dead end pointless dogma. In so doing he has given up his right to succession to the Empire which is fair but while we may be two peoples we are still siblings.
The seat on the council works both ways, as Khanid II has influence over Amarr, Amarr has influence over Khanid II. Do not belive that this means King Khanid who fought his way to life once will so easily return it for a mere seat on the council. May we not take up arm's again against one another, and may we walk down this new path hand in hand, two distinct dominions and the stronger for the company.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.08 10:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Opera Noir
Originally by: Rodj Blake Why would Khanid II submit to the rule of another? For the good of the Kingdom and the Empire.
You talk about Khanid II's right to influence the Empire, but you seem to forget about the Empire's right to influence the Kingdom. I not believe that the Privy Council and the Empress would have agreed to this without some prospect of it eventually bringing the Kingdom back into the Empire, where it belongs.
The reabsorption of Khanid into the Empire would be good for neither. The very idea is vile. King Khanid and our people fought for our independence and our King chose life rather then submit to dead end pointless dogma. In so doing he has given up his right to succession to the Empire which is fair but while we may be two peoples we are still siblings.
The seat on the council works both ways, as Khanid II has influence over Amarr, Amarr has influence over Khanid II. Do not belive that this means King Khanid who fought his way to life once will so easily return it for a mere seat on the council. May we not take up arm's again against one another, and may we walk down this new path hand in hand, two distinct dominions and the stronger for the company.
What's vile is the idea that the partition of the Amarrian people should last for a moment longer than neccessary.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Opera Noir
Amarr State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.06.08 10:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rodj Blake What's vile is the idea that the partition of the Amarrian people should last for a moment longer than neccessary.
And it shaln't. With this seat the partition will be mended, but the Kingdom will remain a Kingdom. |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.08 10:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Opera Noir
Originally by: Rodj Blake What's vile is the idea that the partition of the Amarrian people should last for a moment longer than neccessary.
And it shaln't. With this seat the partition will be mended, but the Kingdom will remain a Kingdom.
The partition may be lower, but it still exists while the Kingdom continues to call itself a Kingdom. |
Opera Noir
Amarr State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.06.08 10:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rodj Blake The partition may be lower, but it still exists while the Kingdom continues to call itself a Kingdom.
I belive any such partition will be only the result of peoples in-acceptance of the Kingdom's rightful and earned autonomy.
If my King sits on the council with the Amarrian heirs and the Empress we are together as far as that is concerned.
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Graelyn
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.06.08 16:36:00 -
[16]
My colleagues above have touched upon many of my own feelings on this matter.
It's a good step.
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Veshta Yoshida
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.08 16:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Opera Noir I believe any such partition will be only the result of peoples in-acceptance of the Kingdom's rightful and earned autonomy.
If my King sits on the council with the Amarrian heirs and the Empress we are together as far as that is concerned.
Waging war upon ones brothers and sisters merely to avoid a pre-determined legal verdict does not make the autonomy rightful, but it is beside the point.
Originally by: Announcement He has affirmed his belief most firm in the Word of God and the holy burden of our Empire. It is God's divine command that we today confirm the status of Kingdom of the Empire on the territories our noble and majestic brother shall continue to rule in the name of Holy Amarr.
Our King, Khanid II, has sworn fealty to our most illustrious Empress, Jamyl I, and all space within the Kingdoms borders are now to be considered Amarr space.
It is similar in status of the Mandate or any of the other territories, main difference that I can see is that the King will not be subject to the whims of the courts in the same way as the other lords.
We should rejoice. Not only has the aggressive posturing and expansion of the Shakorite regime given us new focus, but it has hastened the inevitable re-unification.
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Jove X
Dragon Highlords Death Is Everywhere
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Posted - 2009.06.08 17:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Opera Noir King Khanid and our people fought for our independence and our King chose life rather then submit to dead end pointless dogma. In so doing he has given up his right to succession to the Empire which is fair but while we may be two peoples we are still siblings.
This isn't quite true. King Khanid was forced to leave the empire under rather dubious circumstances. He wasn't a 'freedom loving' free thinking cessionalist, but an heir who felt killing himself was wrong, and declared a heretic.
But the current Empress, and all of the heirs, are now in the same boat, all having survived Imperial succession.
Our King and all Khanid loyalists fought for the right to exist. Independence was an undesirable consequence of that, one we've had to live with for more than 300 years. In that time, the King remained loyal to Holy Amarr.
The Empress recognized that in her speech. |
Jove X
Dragon Highlords Death Is Everywhere
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Posted - 2009.06.08 17:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Rodj Blake What's vile is the idea that the partition of the Amarrian people should last for a moment longer than neccessary.
Rodj, a unionists?
Nice to see. Didn't take you for one, though I have seen you affirm His Highness's lineage as true Amarr. |
Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.08 18:20:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Jin Nib on 08/06/2009 18:21:04 Oh burn- wrong user!
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Opera Noir
Amarr State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.06.08 18:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jove X
Originally by: Opera Noir King Khanid and our people fought for our independence and our King chose life rather then submit to dead end pointless dogma. In so doing he has given up his right to succession to the Empire which is fair but while we may be two peoples we are still siblings.
This isn't quite true. King Khanid was forced to leave the empire under rather dubious circumstances. He wasn't a 'freedom loving' free thinking cessionalist, but an heir who felt killing himself was wrong, and declared a heretic.
No, fighting for our independance was merely a result of the King's choice. But who is to say that the break was not God's will? I think the Kingdom's survival despite the odds points to divine surety.
"I will not be ordered by some whimpering fool to destroy myself when my work is unfinished. You will not take anything from me - not my kingdom, not my people and least of all my life." - Khanid II As his family tied his line to the bloodline of my people, as his citizen I have tied his work, which is surely divine will, to my goals. Quote: "In acknowledgment of our noble brother's service and with his glad acceptance, we today make of him a Privy Councilor and confirm that his seat in our council shall be House Khanid's in perpetuity. Let all subjects of the Holy Empire of Amarr know that this man has our trust and our faith, as he has given his trust and faith to us. Let it also be known, by the people, by our friends, and, yes, by our enemies, that today Holy Amarr stands united in our faith and our holy mission. In the name of God, we declare this and shall see it done."
While acknowledging the rightful reign of Jamyl I as Empress of Amarr, the Khanid Kingdom will remain an independent nation. It will continue to field its own navy, but will enjoy a pact of mutual protection with the Amarr Empire. Khanid II will officially hold the Privy Council seat but will be allowed to name a proxy when he is unable to attend.
The Hounorable Empress herself espresses this union as a mutual pact, not as the mere absorbtion of the Kingdom under the direct control of the Empire. While I am glad to be standing with my brothers and sisters of Amarr my loyalty will remain with the King and the Khanid Kingdom.
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Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2009.06.08 18:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jove X But the current Empress, and all of the heirs, are now in the same boat, all having survived Imperial succession.
This is an interesting point we would all do well to think about.
Silas Vitalia
CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Public Comm "KhanidPublic"
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Jove X
Dragon Highlords Death Is Everywhere
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Posted - 2009.06.08 19:36:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Opera Noir The Hounorable Empress herself espresses this union as a mutual pact, not as the mere absorbtion of the Kingdom under the direct control of the Empire. While I am glad to be standing with my brothers and sisters of Amarr my loyalty will remain with the King and the Khanid Kingdom.
Fair point, but how do you interpret:
"Let it also be known, by the people, by our friends, and, yes, by our enemies, that today Holy Amarr stands united in our faith and our holy mission. In the name of God, we declare this and shall see it done."
Taken with this:
"While acknowledging the rightful reign of Jamyl I as Empress of Amarr..."?
My take is that the Khanid Kingdom's independence is independent from other forces with the Empire EXCLUDING the Empress (she is reserving the right to speak for all Amarr!) Even then the Empress will function through his Majesty, just as she does for each of the other Houses. I see no difference. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed resolution of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. -Weatherman |
Jin Nib
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Posted - 2009.06.08 19:54:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jin Nib on 08/06/2009 19:55:38 >.<
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Kaito Haakkainen
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.08 19:55:00 -
[25]
My understanding of Amarrian politics and the theocracy in general is no where near as extensive as others but this new situation seems somewhat similar to that of the Mandate.
Both are united under the Amarrian faith, neither are popularly considered heretical, both are lead by a member of the Privy Council, and both have considerable cultural, technological, and economic differences that would make any complete absorption into the Empire proper a poor deal for both sides.
That Khanid II remains excluded from the succession likely suits all directly involved, and while the Kindom retains it's status as a sovereign-nation so too, in many practical respects, is the Mandate. Both still fall under what I know of the definition of a Reclaimed people.
Given the Kingdoms unofficial status as the trade window to the Empire I'd see this change, and the ease of tension it provides, as a great boon to trade for both cultures along with many of their trading partners. It will perhaps also free up the military assets that have been overused having half-raised swords pointed at each other for so very long.
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Opera Noir
Amarr State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.06.08 19:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jove X
Fair point, but how do you interpret:
"Let it also be known, by the people, by our friends, and, yes, by our enemies, that today Holy Amarr stands united in our faith and our holy mission. In the name of God, we declare this and shall see it done."
We have always served the same divine path laid out for us by the heavens, now we will carry out this mission together. Rather then as before in which we were as two people traveling the same rout and separated by fog, we now travel the same rout and the fog shall no longer hinder our vision.
Quote: Taken with this:
"While acknowledging the rightful reign of Jamyl I as Empress of Amarr..."?
My take is that the Khanid Kingdom's independence is independent from other forces with the Empire EXCLUDING the Empress (she is reserving the right to speak for all Amarr!) Even then the Empress will function through his Majesty, just as she does for each of the other Houses. I see no difference.
I see this as King Khanid's confirmation of an established fact, that the Empress is ruling the Amarr Empire. As once heir, he acknowledged that she is the rightful leader by succession and renounces any claims he may have had on the throne. I see it as Khanid II's acknowledgment and acceptance of past facts. At the same time the Empress has also confirmed what is already fact by recognizing Khanid II's reign over the Kingdom.
That our goals are the same does not, in fact, indicate that our differences, built through the intervening years, do not remain.
-Opera
PS: I apologize for the mess my slave is making of the thread. He shall be punsihed accordingly.
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Jove X
Dragon Highlords Death Is Everywhere
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Posted - 2009.06.08 20:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Opera Noir We have always served the same divine path laid out for us by the heavens, now we will carry out this mission together. Rather then as before in which we were as two people traveling the same rout and separated by fog, we now travel the same rout and the fog shall no longer hinder our vision.
I agree with your philosophical position, but this recent announcement has constitutional implications.
Until the Empress accepted his Majesty Khanid II into her court, and declared him Amarr - his legal position was as heretic, even if as Khanid monarch he remained loyal. At a minimum, we can agree this pronouncement removes any stigma attached to his majesty's actions long ago.
As you say - we are travelling in the same direction, BUT, removing the stigma of being a heretic will have constitutional implications. His Majesty has been appointed to the privy council and I suppose, as someone else noted above, the issue will be if that is in the narrow sense of the privy council or the broad sense.
If the narrow sense, than His Majesty, and his house, have been greatly honoured by the Empress, and will play a very substantial role in the balance of House interests. This appointment should not be under-estimated.
Originally by: Opera Noir I see this as King Khanid's confirmation of an established fact, that the Empress is ruling the Amarr Empire. As once heir, he acknowledged that she is the rightful leader by succession and renounces any claims he may have had on the throne. I see it as Khanid II's acknowledgment and acceptance of past facts. At the same time the Empress has also confirmed what is already fact by recognizing Khanid II's reign over the Kingdom.
That our goals are the same does not, in fact, indicate that our differences, built through the intervening years, do not remain.
Again we agree. Before any healing of the past schism could take place, his Majesty had to publicly acknowledge the Empress as rightful ruler of the Amarr. This is done.
Likewise, the Empress needed to heal past wrongs, by pointing out King Khanid's actions were not worthy of heretic status. Given that the Empress's herself survived one imperial succession like Khanid II before her, I can't see how should could have done otherwise.
The icing seems to have been the Kings role in capturing the common heretic Karsoth. Regardless the appointment and recognition that the King is not a heretic along with the King's acknowledgement of the Empresses rightful inheritance clears up muddy political waters substantially.
I can't see this as having an inconsequential constitutional impact. Therefore, I can't help but to see this as the beginning of greater integration still.
If the King is a privy councillor and falls under the authority of the Empress as a true Amarr - how much autonomy will he really be given should their interests diverge?
I believe her good Grace (in allowing his majesty the right to continue to rule without consultantory interference, and his unswerving devotion to the Empress, is fertile grounds for additional movements towards full integration. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed resolution of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. -Weatherman |
Opera Noir
Amarr State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.06.08 20:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jove X
If the King is a privy councillor and falls under the authority of the Empress as a true Amarr - how much autonomy will he really be given should their interests diverge?
And that is really the question at the heart of the matter. It is this question upon which His Majestey's subjects and their loyalties will play a part. As I am loyal to the King so I am loyal to the Empress, but should his loyalties change to lie elsewhere in his work for the divine, then so shall mine. And it is this that defines the Kingdom's autonomy. |
Nur AlHuda
Amarr Callide Vulpis
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Posted - 2009.06.09 09:29:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Nur AlHuda on 09/06/2009 09:32:55 Kingdom is not more independent then the Mandate under Ardishapurs control and i think it will have exactly same priviledges.
The event that King Khanid was declared heretic is major point. With that declaration he lost all rights, property and infulence within Holy Amarr Empire. Only property what was left was in khanid space.
Now we see a change. His heretic status was revoked, and admission to privy council which the khanid family had a long time before is open to him again.
That means same responsibilties, rights, influence and other families share. Yes he can be named emperor if empress would die. Why? There is no law or decree issued which would prohibit that and if yes point me that decree or regulations.
He didnt gived up his personal independence. Lets not forget that khanids outside of amarr space lived on borders of amarr empire without full access to empire only with trade possiblities open. The market could not grow and investment was related only to ship productions and brokering caldari-amarr deals.
Now his house was reestablished within empire so all things that he lost he gained back which also provide khanids with brand new opportunities that they were closed before.
And if he would like to retain full unqestionable independence of khanid space he would make law agreements with empire about status of his domain. This didnt happen as no known regulatiosn about status of the khanid space are known. Only one speech was made that his status is reestablished and he has a seat in privy council that means khanid space is is part of Amarr Empire and shares same obligations as Ammatar Mandate.
Long Live Reunited Empire.
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Nir Draturiss
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.06.09 10:47:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Nir Draturiss on 09/06/2009 10:49:43 "While acknowledging the rightful reign of Jamyl I as Empress of Amarr, the Khanid Kingdom will remain an independent nation. It will continue to field its own navy, but will enjoy a pact of mutual protection with the Amarr Empire. Khanid II will officially hold the Privy Council seat but will be allowed to name a proxy when he is unable to attend."
I think this should clear up any confusion...I do not think it is similar to the Mandate, which while having autonomy, IIRC are under direct supervision by the Empire and its officials can be made answerable to the Empire. I don't believe this is the case with the Khanid Kingdom.
An alliance is what we have here, not full re-unification.
My Actions. my Sacrifices. my Life and my Death...are only for You, my God...my Eternal - oath of a long forgotten Khanid Knight. |
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