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Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
139
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Posted - 2012.05.18 13:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think the biggest problem with power projection are the incredibly long timers (dominion sov)
From the moment when you drop SBUs to the final station shoot the defenders have about a week before you need to deal with it.
Imagine your alliance leaders playing a big game of Civ 5 in space. Now imagine that it takes 20 turns to take over a city. You could leave your entire empire undefended and stomp around the map with one giant army that could come home and put out any fires. That's pretty much blob warfare there.
Now look at people setting up PoCos in lowsec. Those things have a 1-2 day timer so any lowsec alliances with planets keep their empires close together because they are always having to run around swatting away people all the time. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
140
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Posted - 2012.05.18 19:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Spikeflach wrote:From a game mechanics standpoint, its probably impossible to fix that issue. Naw dude, just make it really easy to flip sov. Maybe not faction warfare easy, where you can take a system and then wake up the next day in someone else's space
Have you ever been called out on deployment by your masters in null before? Basically one big coalition calls up all their pets, "Hey dudes pack all your CTA stuff and move it to the other side of eve. You'll be staying there for a few weeks while you are shooting people we want you to shoot at."
This sort of thing used to happen in the middle ages all the time. Kings would call up all their dukes, and baron, and landed gentry and tell them all to arm all their peasants and send them off to war. Or on a larger scale the Pope would call a crusade and everyone would have to road trip to the middle east. The one drawback to doing this is that they would leave their crops unattended and their families unprotected. If rumors of anything nasty happening back at home came up people would start deserting and the nobility would call their armies back.
But in eve the week long station shoot timers make home defense something you can ignore for a while. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
140
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Posted - 2012.05.18 19:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Spikeflach wrote: Not everyone wants to go off and destroy other people in a system that is essentially worthless to your corp/alliance/coalition.
That's a good point.
A lot of the "Because we can" punitive wars are more about shooting dudes and less about taking space. And they are the more enjoyable parts of eve.
It's the wars of conquest where people are trying to take space / tech moons that make it impossible for smaller entities moving into null . |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
151
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Posted - 2012.06.01 22:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Multiple planet-anchorable modules: This would have the added benefit of enabling SOV warfare to regain its old tug of war mechanic, where you fight over a system for a period of time and both sides can win some and lose some, as opposed to today's system where you either win all fights over a properly upgraded system, or the defender wins ONE fight and all the progress the attacker made is reset. How about making sov based on who has the most amount of Player Owned Customs Offices in system? And if nobody has a majority then the system becomes unclaimed.
I know this sounds like a dumb idea (and it probably is) but after living in lowsec for a while I have been REALLY impressed with the reinforcement mechanics of PoCos
Imagine you have a solar system with 9 planets in it. You'd only have to online 5 PoCos to fully control it, (or if you were feeling ballsy you could online one PoCo and just clear out the other planets).
But for our exampel alliance to own the place let's say they have 1 PoCo on each planet for a total of 9. Now they have 9 reinforcement timers to play with. If they were heavy in one timezone they could set all the PoCos to come out of reinforce during the same time window. Also since they can only be set to come out in 3 hour windows then if an attacker hit all 9 planets at ocne then 2 days later they'd have to camp the system with dreads for 3 hours while each planet slowly came out of reinforce.
If the defending alliance was heavy in 2 time zones they could set half their planets to come out in the first time zone and the other half in the second time zone. Or if they had round the clock coverage they could just make all their PoCos come out at random times.
This means an attacker could blitz a system and clear it out in two days if they were confident they could win fights round the clock. Or do every system one at a time if they met heavy resistance. So you get the tug of war mechanics back, AND you can blitz systems.
Also as far as structure grinding goes. A PoCo can be taken down by three dreads in 15 minutes. It can fit in an iteron, and it costs about 100 mil. That's well within the reach of any small alliance. Also if you don't have 3 dreads a gang of 30 dps fit taloses can do it in the same time. It's few enough HP that you have to drop dreads or get 30 people in paper tanked tier 3s, but not so few hp that one ******* in a bomber can take your space.
Yes you can lose a system in 2 days. So in theory you could go away on a 3 day weekend and come back in someone else's space. But this forces people to live in their own space. And even if your entire alliance goes into a 3 day coma you can take your home back in 2 days. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
152
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Posted - 2012.06.03 16:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:the problem I have with them is that there's no manual timing mechanism, so it's still just a matter of setting a timer and it's +-3 hours from that time. But apart from the fact I like the idea of being able to outwit the other guy if I'm good at timing or reading the other guy's bluff etc, then yes, POCOs could definitely have been used.
Actually now you just pick a time of day in a 2 hour window. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Customs_Office
So in there example if you set the reinforcement exit to 13:00-15:00 Then when the PoCo gets shot it starts the timer a day ahead + however many hours to get into the reinforcement window. The idea was that small groups living in lowsec who are all in one timezone could set their PoCos to always come out of reinforce when they are online no matter when it gets shot.
It's a way more convenient system than stront loading. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
153
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Posted - 2012.06.03 17:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:with a Jump range nerf, say 50% of current So on the subject of power projection.
Every cap fleet I have ever been in in null usually consisted of 50+ carriers and dreads. And every one of us had a cyno alt, just to move our own crap around on our own. And whenever the FC wanted to get everyone across the universe he'd pull up dotlan, scout a route, and tell a few of us to get our cyno alts at the midpoints.
All cutting the jump range in half would do is take a trip that would have normally taken 4 cyno alts then take 8 cyno alts. This isn't a very big deal when you have 50+ caps on field who have 50+ cyno alts.
Titan bridging is the one area where I could see a jump range nerf having any effect. This would help end the process of a titan sitting at a POS, bridging a fleet, and then scooting back into the POS. An attacker would have to set up more POSes along the route, or actually jump his titan with the fleet to keep the bridging chain going, but without the safety of a POS shield.
If you really want to **** off cap pilots and make deployments costly. Then double the size of all fuel bays, and double all fuel consumption. Their costs would double right away, and ice prices would go up with the added consumption. Make it a major investment to move a blob across the galaxy. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
153
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Posted - 2012.06.03 17:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:1) If CCP did change the sov system (which I doubt they will, but it's not like that's going to stop us from pipedreaming) into a POCO (or some other planet-anchored structure, to not get a repeat of the old POS system where they were shoehorned into a role they really weren't made for in the first place), then the system could still be lost in 2 days. So the formula for a PoCo reinforcement timer is:
(X number of days) + (H amount of hours to hit the set reinforcement window)
Right now X is 1. We'd just need to slide that value up a bit until people feel comfortable.
Right now in theory if you had an entirely US timezone alliance that all took off a three day weekend over Thanksgiving or something. Then all their space could be quietly taken over by a handful of Russian dread pilots who don't care about your deep fried turkeys.
Maybe 2 days is a bit brutal. If we set X to 2 or 3 days then you'd have half a week to get things sorted out. Granted we'd want to keep it fairly low, otherwise we'd get the same power projection / safety problems we have now.
Lord Zim wrote:2) The main thing which I believe will actually work as a force projection reducer, isn't isk, but time. Time is probably the most limited resource in EVE. That's true. There is always a bit of an isk disparity between different alliances. A 10 bil purchase means different things to people with tech moons than people without tech moons.
But 2 hours of your life always costs the same no matter who you are. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
153
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Posted - 2012.06.03 18:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:pipedreaming And now the pipe dream has it's own thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=117189&find=unread |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
165
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Posted - 2012.06.14 06:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
evereplicant wrote:- Tech moons or any high income moons such as prom and dyspro. Remove them either completely or randomise them every month!. Then it's not worth invading a tech moon because it'll be gone in a month. BUT the game still showers people in free tech every once in a while. They'd get the tech but without the risk of getting invaded. And owning a mining POS would just be some game of chance lottery.
No, do the ring mining that CCP was talking about. Then it's the individual members of an alliance that benefit from owning tech, and not the alliance leaders getting rich. Also space still has fixed landscape worth fighting over, (those conflict drivers people keep going on about.)
evereplicant wrote:- Stop alliances owning region after region and not even living in it! and then creaming it from renters! To allow more people to own space alliances can only have sov in 1 region and only hold 51% of the stations in that region
- Limit alliance numbers to 2000! Its not right people like goons and test can control the whole of eve! No No No! The reason arbitrary limits don't work is because people will find a way around them, in the above example an 8000 man alliance could simply split up into 4 NAPed alliances that have the same leadership and control 2 regions between them. Also people would only drop sov in station systems and let the nearby systems go "unclaimed" even though they own them.
evereplicant wrote:- Limit the number of blues! Eve has become a complete napfest now! Having this set to a limit allows people to think about who really there friends are and who they choose not to be Again this arbitrary limitation would be made irrelevant by other formalized ways of determining who not to shoot. For example putting all your dudes on deployment on one of your boarders then resetting standings to all your blues along your other boarders that your guys aren't fighting on.
evereplicant wrote:- Remove warp bubbles - Seriously WTF - Stop lazy ass gameplay. We have dictors and hictors for that! You want to camp a gate then get the right ship and be prepared to fight for it! Drag bubbles again WTF. Lets camp 100Km off a gate! Somebody got shot going through null eh? Get a buddy to scout you. Maybe use an interdiction nullified T3. Also you realize that hictors and dictors can make their own warp bubbles. I honestly thought this was a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544 |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
165
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Posted - 2012.06.17 20:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Well that is a dumb law. That means that even the suggestion to make timers shorter or switch to poco based sov is just going to help the rich and powerful. Hooray the PoCo based sov idea is STILL ALIVE!
Making space easier to take (Shorter timers, PoCos, whatever) will make it easier for smaller alliances to move into space that the larger alliances aren't paying attention to or don't have the manpower to babysit. Also if they do get steamrolled they'll have a lower barrier of effort and isk to move back in.
Yes large groups of people will always curb stomp small groups of people. That's life. But lowering the barrier to entry will at least allow people to attempt to take a bit of space for themselves for a week or so.
Also I'd say that the reason large megablobs exist is because of the idea of sending your blues "on deployment" to fight your wars.
You can see an example of this in medieval societies where a king would start calling all his dukes, barons, lords, and other assorted landed gentry that have soldiers and conscriptable peasants. They'd send their people off to fight the king's war, meanwhile their crops would go unharvested and their families would be unprotected while the peasants were away.
Because of the incredibly long reinforcement timers (that you only have to win on the last fight to keep your space) People can leave vast tracts of null undefended. This means that you can batphne your blues for long periods of time, and every alliance fight is the crusades. I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544 |
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