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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
427
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Posted - 2012.06.13 01:31:00 -
[451] - Quote
Sigh, you guys just don't get it. Nobody comes to null because Mittens is a jerk. It's not because it's not safe, or that in a lot of null the rewards aren't really worth it (Drone Regions especially), or that it requires a pretty ridiculous logistic effort just to maintain day-to-day life there. It's all down to this silent majority of strong-willed individuals who just can't abide by our ways. How this excludes them from the other 3/4 of null is still a bit of a mystery, but vOv, Eve University works in mysteriouis ways. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1141
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 01:58:00 -
[452] - Quote
Why the hell are EVE-Uni guys making suggestions to alter gameplay styles they have zero experience with or knowledge about? They're still 'in training' learning how to play in highsec. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
950
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 04:44:00 -
[453] - Quote
Mocam wrote:What's needed in nullsec are actual threats and that won't come from outside null. Your security needs to be removed. After that, perhaps you can whine about the secure income in other portions of this game *IF* you have the time and energy to invest in such concerns while actually fighting.
Hey perhaps you should put in a fraction of the effort that we put in to keeping our space secure, then you can come tell us that nullsec is "too safe" eh |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
481
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 06:12:00 -
[454] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Mocam wrote:What's needed in nullsec are actual threats and that won't come from outside null. Your security needs to be removed. After that, perhaps you can whine about the secure income in other portions of this game *IF* you have the time and energy to invest in such concerns while actually fighting. Hey perhaps you should put in a fraction of the effort that we put in to keeping our space secure, then you can come tell us that nullsec is "too safe" He's right, so the obvious solution is that CCP should turn all of highsec into 0.0 so that they can enjoy mining and missioning in safety themselves. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1132
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 08:34:00 -
[455] - Quote
Uh oh... The self entitled current null residents who didn't have to fight for any of it are at it again.
/grabs stick
Down! *smack* Back!!! *smack* Heel you rodent! *smack*
They need to learn some damn manners. They also need to learn that running around telling players that are not currently in null, they have no place giving opinions on null is pretty stupid when they flood into other threads discussing game mechanics they have no experience in dealing with, especially high sec.
You fools need to calm the hell down and learn what it means to give constructive feedback if you want to join the rest of us in big boy talk. Anyways, that stick I was smacking you with...
/throws stick
Fetch!!!
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Lord Zim
792
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 09:10:00 -
[456] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Uh oh... The self entitled current null residents who didn't have to fight for any of it are at it again.
/grabs stick
Down! *smack* Back!!! *smack* Heel you rodent! *smack*
They need to learn some damn manners. They also need to learn that running around telling players that are not currently in null, they have no place giving opinions on null is pretty stupid when they flood into other threads discussing game mechanics they have no experience in dealing with, especially high sec.
You fools need to calm the hell down and learn what it means to give constructive feedback if you want to join the rest of us in big boy talk. Anyways, that stick I was smacking you with...
/throws stick
Fetch!!! Which one of us are the "self entitled current null residents" who "didn't have to fight for any of it"? |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 11:43:00 -
[457] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Uh oh... The self entitled current null residents who didn't have to fight for any of it are at it again.
/grabs stick
Down! *smack* Back!!! *smack* Heel you rodent! *smack*
They need to learn some damn manners. They also need to learn that running around telling players that are not currently in null, they have no place giving opinions on null is pretty stupid when they flood into other threads discussing game mechanics they have no experience in dealing with, especially high sec.
You fools need to calm the hell down and learn what it means to give constructive feedback if you want to join the rest of us in big boy talk. Anyways, that stick I was smacking you with...
/throws stick
Fetch!!!
Your posting has become really disappointing lately. It's OK not to like The Mittani, but you are thorwing out the baby of reason and facts with the bathwater of goonhate.
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1133
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 15:40:00 -
[458] - Quote
Bossy Lady wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Uh oh... The self entitled current null residents who didn't have to fight for any of it are at it again.
/grabs stick
Down! *smack* Back!!! *smack* Heel you rodent! *smack*
They need to learn some damn manners. They also need to learn that running around telling players that are not currently in null, they have no place giving opinions on null is pretty stupid when they flood into other threads discussing game mechanics they have no experience in dealing with, especially high sec.
You fools need to calm the hell down and learn what it means to give constructive feedback if you want to join the rest of us in big boy talk. Anyways, that stick I was smacking you with...
/throws stick
Fetch!!! Your posting has become really disappointing lately. It's OK not to like The Mittani, but you are thorwing out the baby of reason and facts with the bathwater of goonhate.
I hate people with double standards. It has nothing to do with goons or mittani.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1151
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 16:09:00 -
[459] - Quote
constructive feedback: Marlona i think you need to sign your own emote-containing straw man argument post to fully complete its pure pubbie worthlessness |
Lord Zim
792
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 16:51:00 -
[460] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:It has nothing to do with goons or mittani. Right. And I'm a ballerina. |
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
488
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 17:28:00 -
[461] - Quote
0.0 residents interact with highsec and the other areas of the game on a regular basis. Its where they get their skillbooks, where they import most of their ships, ammo, and modules from, its where their mission running and production alts spend their entire existence, and its where they recruit new members. That makes them more than qualified to comment on the aspects of it that require attention.
Highsec residents, by contrast, never have to set foot outside highsec for anything, and don't have a need to place alts in those other areas, and if CCP were to delete every 0.0, lowsec and wormspace system tomorrow the bulk of them would barely notice aside from a passing curiosity as to why the demand for their minerals and salvage had dropped away, and where the proportion of their fellow PvErs who were highsec alts of lowsec/0.0/wormhole mains had vanished to. That makes them easily ignored when they spout ill-informed opinions about areas of space they've never seen and only know about through friend-of-a-friend anecdotes and the occasional news article on the client login. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 22:22:00 -
[462] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Bossy Lady wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Uh oh... The self entitled current null residents who didn't have to fight for any of it are at it again.
/grabs stick
Down! *smack* Back!!! *smack* Heel you rodent! *smack*
They need to learn some damn manners. They also need to learn that running around telling players that are not currently in null, they have no place giving opinions on null is pretty stupid when they flood into other threads discussing game mechanics they have no experience in dealing with, especially high sec.
You fools need to calm the hell down and learn what it means to give constructive feedback if you want to join the rest of us in big boy talk. Anyways, that stick I was smacking you with...
/throws stick
Fetch!!! Your posting has become really disappointing lately. It's OK not to like The Mittani, but you are thorwing out the baby of reason and facts with the bathwater of goonhate. I hate people with double standards. It has nothing to do with goons or mittani.
So why do you see the piece of sawdust in another believer's eye and not notice the wooden beam in your own eye?
Matthew 7:3
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Frying Doom
Tinfoil Hat News Ltd.
295
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 06:27:00 -
[463] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:But typical Eve players are horribly risk adverse. You can see it with ideas like; removing local (so they can hide),\ limit force projection (so enemy fleets can't reach them) spread around strategic resources (so they don't have to go fight for them) fort/capitol systems (to buff their defense or nerf others' offense) remove structure notifications (so they can shoot structures without interruption)
A lot of people will move to nullsec, once they can hide out in a systems with defense buffs, wait for the moon cycles to bring the tech to them, and shoot their neighbor's structures without them knowing. And people complain that nullsec is too safe now. On catching up I found this post and I found I agree with him especially when it came to the risk adverse and Capitals/Forts .
I'm sure the author of this idea is very risk adverse, cowering where ever he is at the first sign of someone not blue in local. Running when not in a 3 to 1 blob.
Because of course the author of Capitals and Forts is a Member of Goonswarm. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 06:53:00 -
[464] - Quote
evereplicant wrote:- Tech moons or any high income moons such as prom and dyspro. Remove them either completely or randomise them every month!. Then it's not worth invading a tech moon because it'll be gone in a month. BUT the game still showers people in free tech every once in a while. They'd get the tech but without the risk of getting invaded. And owning a mining POS would just be some game of chance lottery.
No, do the ring mining that CCP was talking about. Then it's the individual members of an alliance that benefit from owning tech, and not the alliance leaders getting rich. Also space still has fixed landscape worth fighting over, (those conflict drivers people keep going on about.)
evereplicant wrote:- Stop alliances owning region after region and not even living in it! and then creaming it from renters! To allow more people to own space alliances can only have sov in 1 region and only hold 51% of the stations in that region
- Limit alliance numbers to 2000! Its not right people like goons and test can control the whole of eve! No No No! The reason arbitrary limits don't work is because people will find a way around them, in the above example an 8000 man alliance could simply split up into 4 NAPed alliances that have the same leadership and control 2 regions between them. Also people would only drop sov in station systems and let the nearby systems go "unclaimed" even though they own them.
evereplicant wrote:- Limit the number of blues! Eve has become a complete napfest now! Having this set to a limit allows people to think about who really there friends are and who they choose not to be Again this arbitrary limitation would be made irrelevant by other formalized ways of determining who not to shoot. For example putting all your dudes on deployment on one of your boarders then resetting standings to all your blues along your other boarders that your guys aren't fighting on.
evereplicant wrote:- Remove warp bubbles - Seriously WTF - Stop lazy ass gameplay. We have dictors and hictors for that! You want to camp a gate then get the right ship and be prepared to fight for it! Drag bubbles again WTF. Lets camp 100Km off a gate! Somebody got shot going through null eh? Get a buddy to scout you. Maybe use an interdiction nullified T3. Also you realize that hictors and dictors can make their own warp bubbles. I honestly thought this was a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544 |
Serina Tsukaya
Lonetrek Trade and Industries Test Friends Please Ignore
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 20:27:00 -
[465] - Quote
On the account of force projection:
Make a device that lasts for say, ten minutes, a full cyno cycle, that denies the activation of any cyno fields in the system. But, the device can be destroyed, and you can't put another one up for the remaining duration for the jamming cycle. This reduces the force projection of larger alliances, although to be quite honest, I don't know if this would be a good mechanic giving how it's basically one shot, short duration and high cost way to keep someone from being able to disrupt your operations.
That said, is force projection really that big of an issue? Isn't it more the 300 man blob that kills the small alliance rather than the 50 or so caps? I've rarely seen caps been used by either side in actual ship vs ship combat, that said I have yet to partake in larger offensives. |
Lord Zim
795
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 23:12:00 -
[466] - Quote
We do have such a device, it's called the cynojammers, and they have to be incapped for the caps to come in.
As to force projection, the only real thing which I'd say could actually limit force projection of caps, is time and effort. When you can move a capfleet across the entire eve universe in a relatively short amount of time, then you can project that force over a large distance. However, that's not enough, for this to be properly effective you'd have to combine that with a penalty for not being able to defend everything to a much, much larger degree than today, so if you're attacked in f.ex 2 places which are far enough apart that you have to choose which front to commit to each time, and you only have, say, 2 days to repel the attack instead of the closer to 1 week we have now, then you'd probably start to see a much more interesting strategic landscape and activity. |
Serina Tsukaya
Lonetrek Trade and Industries Test Friends Please Ignore
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.14 23:37:00 -
[467] - Quote
Soooo reduce the amount of reinforce timers to the one on the tcu only? |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
46
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 00:02:00 -
[468] - Quote
Serina Tsukaya wrote:Soooo reduce the amount of reinforce timers to the one on the tcu only?
The thing is, the long timers and sov grind is supposed to help the little guy. Smaller alliances that would need time to gather reinforcements and set alarms clocks. The big alliances have enough players on around the clock to handle anything that isn't total war with another large alliance.
A shorter sov grind would probably make for more lively sov-change maps. Might be a bit more fun, since players could just move on to more action rather than wait around to grind structures. But it would mean that bigger alliances could steamroll through a region on a weekend and take a ton of sov. |
Lord Zim
795
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 02:19:00 -
[469] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Serina Tsukaya wrote:Soooo reduce the amount of reinforce timers to the one on the tcu only? The thing is, the long timers and sov grind is supposed to help the little guy. Smaller alliances that would need time to gather reinforcements and set alarms clocks. The big alliances have enough players on around the clock to handle anything that isn't total war with another large alliance. A shorter sov grind would probably make for more lively sov-change maps. Might be a bit more fun, since players could just move on to more action rather than wait around to grind structures. But it would mean that bigger alliances could steamroll through a region on a weekend and take a ton of sov. To be honest, it'd be a steamroll today too if a bigger alliance wants the space, it'll just be more of a cockstab to do it. If the system moved over to, say, a planet-based variant of the POS system, then at least undefended systems should fall fairly quickly, while giving the defender at least some time to get there. |
Signal11th
513
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 07:54:00 -
[470] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Serina Tsukaya wrote:Soooo reduce the amount of reinforce timers to the one on the tcu only? The thing is, the long timers and sov grind is supposed to help the little guy. Smaller alliances that would need time to gather reinforcements and set alarms clocks. The big alliances have enough players on around the clock to handle anything that isn't total war with another large alliance. A shorter sov grind would probably make for more lively sov-change maps. Might be a bit more fun, since players could just move on to more action rather than wait around to grind structures. But it would mean that bigger alliances could steamroll through a region on a weekend and take a ton of sov.
I shall quote "Malcanis's Law" for that, I think it goes something like "When CCP release something for the new player is usually invaribly makes it better for the older players...etc"
All timers really do is delay the inevitable and cause untold suffering on many 0.0 players who just want fun. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4049
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 08:58:00 -
[471] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Serina Tsukaya wrote:Soooo reduce the amount of reinforce timers to the one on the tcu only? The thing is, the long timers and sov grind is supposed to help the little guy. Smaller alliances that would need time to gather reinforcements and set alarms clocks. The big alliances have enough players on around the clock to handle anything that isn't total war with another large alliance. A shorter sov grind would probably make for more lively sov-change maps. Might be a bit more fun, since players could just move on to more action rather than wait around to grind structures. But it would mean that bigger alliances could steamroll through a region on a weekend and take a ton of sov.
Yes that was the theory, but the practice is completely the opposite. As Zim says, if a big alliance really wants the small alliance's space, then no mechanic is going to stop them taking it, and all multiple long timers can do is delay the inevitable a few days. But what the long timers do accomplish is to make it virtually impossible for the small alliance to take any of it back.
If you have very short timers, then what gets space will be persistence. The alliance that's prepared to keep plugging away will be the one that gets the space. If the big alliance really did want that space for themselves, then they're going to keep it. If they just wanted to kick the small alliance out and install worthless renters, then that small alliance can force the big alliance to come down and defend the space every day, instead of once every 10 days.
The current system means that effectively a group like the CFC, easily able to project megafleets across the map, can hold as much space as it can be bothered to fight for, and there's very little any smaller group can do about it. The only reason they don't hold all of sov 0.0 right now is that they they're not interested in acquiring any more. And because all the groups in EVE with the competence and capability of taking Sov are perfectly well aware of the futility of making the attempt, they don't even bother trying.
That's not good for anyone - not even for the CFC, who are getting so bored that their leadership has been forced to launch a campaign vs empire to provide an enemy to define themselves against.
As said above, the timers were a good example of Malcanis' Law: a mechanism which was intended to help the little guy actually has a greater benefit to the rich powerful guy, because it scales superlinearly with assets and power projection ability.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 09:25:00 -
[472] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: As said above, the timers were a good example of Malcanis' Law: a mechanism which was intended to help the little guy actually has a greater benefit to the rich powerful guy, because it scales superlinearly with assets and power projection ability.
Well that is a dumb law. That means that even the suggestion to make timers shorter or switch to poco based sov is just going to help the rich and powerful.
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Lord Zim
796
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 09:27:00 -
[473] - Quote
Dumb law or not, it happens to be correct. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4052
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 14:01:00 -
[474] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Malcanis wrote: As said above, the timers were a good example of Malcanis' Law: a mechanism which was intended to help the little guy actually has a greater benefit to the rich powerful guy, because it scales superlinearly with assets and power projection ability.
Well that is a dumb law. That means that even the suggestion to make timers shorter or switch to poco based sov is just going to help the rich and powerful.
It's an observational Law, not a legislative one.
(And obviously, it doesn't apply to my proposals) Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
88
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 20:48:00 -
[475] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:(And obviously, it doesn't apply to my proposals)
Just run for CSM already goddamn |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 20:35:00 -
[476] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Well that is a dumb law. That means that even the suggestion to make timers shorter or switch to poco based sov is just going to help the rich and powerful. Hooray the PoCo based sov idea is STILL ALIVE!
Making space easier to take (Shorter timers, PoCos, whatever) will make it easier for smaller alliances to move into space that the larger alliances aren't paying attention to or don't have the manpower to babysit. Also if they do get steamrolled they'll have a lower barrier of effort and isk to move back in.
Yes large groups of people will always curb stomp small groups of people. That's life. But lowering the barrier to entry will at least allow people to attempt to take a bit of space for themselves for a week or so.
Also I'd say that the reason large megablobs exist is because of the idea of sending your blues "on deployment" to fight your wars.
You can see an example of this in medieval societies where a king would start calling all his dukes, barons, lords, and other assorted landed gentry that have soldiers and conscriptable peasants. They'd send their people off to fight the king's war, meanwhile their crops would go unharvested and their families would be unprotected while the peasants were away.
Because of the incredibly long reinforcement timers (that you only have to win on the last fight to keep your space) People can leave vast tracts of null undefended. This means that you can batphne your blues for long periods of time, and every alliance fight is the crusades. I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544 |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4080
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 23:13:00 -
[477] - Quote
Rer Eirikr wrote:Malcanis wrote:(And obviously, it doesn't apply to my proposals) Just run for CSM already goddamn
Say pretty please baby with a cherry on top Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Lord Zim
801
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 23:14:00 -
[478] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Rer Eirikr wrote:Malcanis wrote:(And obviously, it doesn't apply to my proposals) Just run for CSM already goddamn Say pretty please baby with a cherry on top Just do it, you muppet. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1028
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 07:12:00 -
[479] - Quote
Wolodymyr wrote:Also I'd say that the reason large megablobs exist is because of the idea of sending your blues "on deployment" to fight your wars.
Large megablobs exist because of the ridiculously high EHP of sov structures, towers and the megablobs you generally fight in the process of shooting those high EHP structures, hth eh |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1247
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 07:52:00 -
[480] - Quote
yeah each person you add to your blob reduces the amount of time you have to spend playing the horrible sov grind game, so its advisable to blob with everyone you possibly can so you can get back to ratting in your nyx, or bubbling a gate to highsec, or whatever
This is why I was yapping back on page 4 about making the current sov miitary level dependent on multiple factors instead of just mulitiple-million EHP + time, in return for sov bills being eliminated in exchange for the new, more activity-dependent basis sov . |
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