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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Elissa
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Posted - 2009.06.25 09:00:00 -
[1]
I was in a L4 mission today and this dude in a probe zips in and starts salvaging all my wrecks. To my amazement, that apparently is not "stealing". Hmmm??? If it weren't for MY missiles, those wrecks would not be there... what gives... that is total BS. Since I am in 0.5 high-sec; I of course have ZERO recourse since Concord will swoop in and destroy me for killing a thief. And, of course the thief would then loot me too.
That's BS! |
Intigo
Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 09:03:00 -
[2]
Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.
This needs discussing as it has never been discussed before. |
Sylar Darkayen
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Posted - 2009.06.25 09:03:00 -
[3]
-10/10.
Go away troll :( |
Reven Cordelle
Caldari Yamainu-Mirai Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.25 09:09:00 -
[4]
Ugh, its got to the point now where these threads can't NOT be a troll.
Find some new material for christ's sake.
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Elissa
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Posted - 2009.06.25 09:19:00 -
[5]
Oh I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have read through the 2,056,345 posts on this board first.
So sorry that I have been away from the game for a year. This is probably the first time I have used these forums in years. But of course the replies are as quirky and rude as possible.
Bet your a wonderful person irl.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 09:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Elissa Oh I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have read through the 2,056,345 posts on this board first.
So sorry that I have been away from the game for a year. This is probably the first time I have used these forums in years. But of course the replies are as quirky and rude as possible.
Bet your a wonderful person irl.
Oh, he is.
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aka Ishur
Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.06.25 09:57:00 -
[7]
****IN THE RARE EVENT THAT THE OP IS NOT A TROLL****
OP: When posting on the forums there are a few steps you need to consider before posting in order to avoid being called a troll. (Doesn't stop you being flamed though for stupid ideas)
1) Consider the topic - does it concern a method of playing that others may have done before. (missioning in your case) - if yes consult evesearch before posting.
2) Decide whether you want to troll.
If you skip step 1 people assume you have answered yes to step 2. Simple.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.06.25 10:00:00 -
[8]
The wrecks are yours, the salvage isn't. Therefore, salvaging them isn't stealing.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.25 10:10:00 -
[9]
looting conteiners werent followed by agro mechanics, carebeass whined about it. CCP chaneg it, then careabers whined about being can baiter and poped. Here we go again with salvage ?:D
60D GTC - shattared link |
ISHKUR MASTER
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.25 10:16:00 -
[10]
**Troll**
The wrecks are not yours.
If I blow up, whose wreck is my wreck, the killers or mine, the obvious, It's still mine.
The wrecks in the mission, still belong to the pilot you killed.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 10:26:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Malcanis on 25/06/2009 10:36:04 Does anyone have that CCP Prism post bookmarked?
nm here it is.
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.06.25 10:36:00 -
[12]
Again, for the cheap seats at the back.
This system is what the carebears whined and whined and whined at CCP for weeks for. Previously you could not salvage a wreck that contained items, this forced you to steal the contents before you could salvage. This lead to a lot of dead carebears in asteroid belts.
This lead to weeks of crying on the forum. This lead to being able to salvage wrecks that are full.
This lead to more carebears crying because people were salvaging their wrecks.
I think there is a common theme here. Whatever CCP do, carebears will cry. |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.06.25 10:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 25/06/2009 10:36:04 Does anyone have that CCP Prism post bookmarked?
nm here it is.
I do now.
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2009.06.25 10:52:00 -
[14]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 25/06/2009 10:53:24
Originally by: Elissa Oh I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have read through the 2,056,345 posts on this board first.
So sorry that I have been away from the game for a year. This is probably the first time I have used these forums in years. But of course the replies are as quirky and rude as possible.
Bet your a wonderful person irl.
Salvage is for anyone, as soon as he takes stuff out of the can however you are able to shoot him.
so, they can have your salvage, but not your lewt, simple really.
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl looting conteiners werent followed by agro mechanics, carebeass whined about it. CCP chaneg it, then careabers whined about being can baiter and poped. Here we go again with salvage ?:D
personally i say give the whiners exactly what they want, let then get agro when i steal. let them shoot me. watch them cry as i bbq there double expensive CNR fits.
Dark Materials |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 10:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Elissa Oh I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have read through the 2,056,345 posts on this board first.
So sorry that I have been away from the game for a year. This is probably the first time I have used these forums in years. But of course the replies are as quirky and rude as possible.
Bet your a wonderful person irl.
Intigo is wonderful person.
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Some Advisor
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Posted - 2009.06.25 11:03:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Some Advisor on 25/06/2009 11:04:31 default answer: salvager faster/bring buddy and/or do it in lowsec no issues, no salvage is free for all, contents of loot is against the law and can be punished by a flagged target
/thread
edit, just for you: ppl shoudl read forums more... so much of informations
but then there would be less "whines" to have fun with when "sudden changes" happen (do you also dont read patchnotes either? i know they can be quite long, but so is the downtime when applying big patches so.... :P )
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Oro Masut
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.06.25 11:06:00 -
[17]
Well, salvage on the fly, leave the cans...when he loots 'em, pop him :-)
WCS gimps your fighting abilty. Make your choice BEFORE you undock. Do not complain about a lost ship ever, if you fit for running and go fighting with it |
Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.06.25 11:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Elissa Oh I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have read through the 2,056,345 posts on this board first.
No but you should have read through all the previous patch notes that explain whats changed since you left, or would that be too obvious? |
Lady Aja
Caldari Eradication Project
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Posted - 2009.06.25 11:56:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Elissa Oh I'm sorry. So sorry that I have been away from the game for a year.
take that one year multiply by ten and do it now. |
Southern Suzy
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.25 12:02:00 -
[20]
Bought char? Ebayed account?
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Connner
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.25 12:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Elissa Oh I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have read through the 2,056,345 posts on this board first.
So sorry that I have been away from the game for a year. This is probably the first time I have used these forums in years. But of course the replies are as quirky and rude as possible.
Bet your a wonderful person irl.
Ok, for a nice polite answer. Consider wrecks as garbage not loot. Now, one person's garbage is another mans gold, but its still garbage. Thus, the space garbage is not 'owned' by anyone. The loot drop is yours, but the garbage surrounding it is anyones. |
Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 12:06:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Oro Masut Well, salvage on the fly, leave the cans...when he loots 'em, pop him :-)
don't forget to dock up for 20mins after, so he doesn't have rights to dock his pod up, jump into pvp ship, fly back to the bookmark he made of your mission and pop your ratting ship.
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:00:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Wendat Huron on 25/06/2009 15:02:16
He's a scavenger, him taking the time to salvage your refuse while you rake in the money on lvl4s is him make a **** income by comparison. Don't get angry, take pity on the poor man and his wasted time. |
Lady Spank
Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:12:00 -
[24]
It's pretty easy to make 20m + an hour from salvaging tbh |
Discrodia
Gallente Blood Red Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:15:00 -
[25]
Oh poor baby. Tell me where you mission and I'll help you out with your problem. The fee is all your salvage |
Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:25:00 -
[26]
Why doesn't ninja salvaging break the risk vs reward equation everybody loves to tout in this forum?
Ninja salvaging in high sec is risk free as long as the salvager does not steal from any cans. The income from this activity is quite good as has been pointed out.
Both missions and mining carry risks in high sec in the form of NPC rats(however small the risks may be perceived).
I wonder if rats should randomly spawn when salvaging occurs that automatically target the salvager ship? The justification is the same as the missisoners...the wrecks are "ours". Sure such a threat is negligable (unless you are in a salvage fit with no weapons).
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:31:00 -
[27]
didnt op know that the aggro mechanics are broken
he wont flash but concord Wont shoot you if you shoot him
those wrecks are yours :)
JOIN FOFF NOW CHAT CHANNEL FOR RECRUITMENT INFO
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Some Advisor
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ana Vyr Why doesn't ninja salvaging break the risk vs reward equation everybody loves to tout in this forum?
Ninja salvaging in high sec is risk free as long as the salvager does not steal from any cans. The income from this activity is quite good as has been pointed out.
wait a sec... why does it break risk vs reward? the OP is doing LESS risk becuse hes doing mission in high sec.. so his reward is less (less salvage on occasions)
:P
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:41:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Elissa Bet your a wonderful person irl.
We're all nice people until this one person comes in, one who thinks it is beneath them to actually take time to read the forums, and asks a question that has been asked many many many many many times before.
I got a dead horse and a stick I can sell you, cheap. I hope you posted with your main cause I am going to find out where you mission run and salvage your missions. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Chelone
The Rising Knights
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:43:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tiny Tove This system is what the carebears whined and whined and whined at CCP for weeks for. Previously you could not salvage a wreck that contained items, this forced you to steal the contents before you could salvage. This lead to a lot of dead carebears in asteroid belts.
This lead to weeks of crying on the forum. This lead to being able to salvage wrecks that are full. This lead to more carebears crying because people were salvaging their wrecks.
Then the obvious solution is to make asteroid wrecks salvageable by anyone, and mission wrecks flagged as belonging to the mission runner.
Sorry, I'm sure I just blew CCP's collective mind with that one.
Remember when missions were at asteroid belts and stargates? Why did CCP even create "instances" out in space for missions?
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MasterEnt
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:49:00 -
[31]
really, how is loot any different than salvage as far as source/destination logic is concerened.
This is silly - Hi or Low - Loot and Wrecks should be treated the same; (PVE) free for anyone who gets to it first or (PVP) owned by individual/corp who got destroyed.
The items may be different, but they are BOTH coming from the same ship destroyed by the same person. |
Vidi Angelus
Caldari Crystal Dynamics Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:55:00 -
[32]
Originally by: MasterEnt really, how is loot any different than salvage as far as source/destination logic is concerened.
This is silly - Hi or Low - Loot and Wrecks should be treated the same; (PVE) free for anyone who gets to it first or (PVP) owned by individual/corp who got destroyed.
The items may be different, but they are BOTH coming from the same ship destroyed by the same person.
Difference is, Any ship in the game can pickup loot, Whereas only ships with salvagers can salvage. meaning lots of wrecks are just left about. CCP wants salvaging to be a profession. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:59:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Vidi Angelus CCP wants salvaging to be a profession.
And they've said so repeatedly.
And with increasing irritation.
Hey, here's a solution:
Remove salvage from mission wrecks entirely. That solves the ninja salvaging problem at a stroke.
(Rebalance rigs to use ~1/4-1/3 as much salvage, so the supply from 0.0 rats is sufficient. This has the happy side effect of boosting 0.0 ratting income a bit too - if you can be bothered to salvage and move the salvage to hi-sec.) |
Vidi Angelus
Caldari Crystal Dynamics Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:07:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Vidi Angelus CCP wants salvaging to be a profession.
Remove salvage from mission wrecks entirely. That solves the ninja salvaging problem at a stroke.
I Wouldn't say Ninja salvaging is a problem. |
Lady Spank
Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:18:00 -
[35]
Maybe ownership of the wrecks and salvage should be transferred to the rat that got blown up, then the rat may decide who they want to attack to avenge their ship loss. |
Riedlim
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:20:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Elissa wow, I don't know how EVE works and I like to look ignorant and whiny.quote]
Agreed |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:21:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Vidi Angelus
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Vidi Angelus CCP wants salvaging to be a profession.
Remove salvage from mission wrecks entirely. That solves the ninja salvaging "problem" at a stroke.
I Wouldn't say Ninja salvaging is a problem.
Well the real problem is people whining about it. I fixed my post. |
Vidi Angelus
Caldari Crystal Dynamics Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:35:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Vidi Angelus
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Vidi Angelus CCP wants salvaging to be a profession.
Remove salvage from mission wrecks entirely. That solves the ninja salvaging "problem" at a stroke.
I Wouldn't say Ninja salvaging is a problem.
Well the real problem is people whining about it. I fixed my post.
Much better
Nerf Whining!!!One!Eleven!! |
Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:56:00 -
[39]
Yes, please make salvaging yellow wrecks a crime. I might grind my sec. status back up and go back to highsec!
And while you're at it, let me tractor yellow wrecks / cans too, with appropriate flagging.
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Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:24:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Elissa Hmmm??? If it weren't for MY missiles, those wrecks would not be there... what gives... that is total BS.
He was salvaging in a BS? What a noob.
-//- |
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Darth Vindictus
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:26:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Elissa Since I am in 0.5 high-sec; I of course have ZERO recourse since Concord will swoop in and destroy me for killing a thief. And, of course the thief would then loot me too.
That's BS!
You are wrong there is a course of action you can take. A couple of my corp buddies and I have used it with great results. To the OP, eve-mail me and I'll tell you how to fix your problem. It doesn't come without a little work on your part though.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:39:00 -
[42]
I have reconsidered my simple solution for an even simpler one:
Remove combat missions from high sec. All those nasty pirate battleships have no place in CONCORD's fluffy wonderland anyway.
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Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 18:32:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Malcanis I have reconsidered my simple solution for an even simpler one:
Remove combat missions from high sec. All those nasty pirate battleships have no place in CONCORD's fluffy wonderland anyway.
woop paving the way for chribba happy train :)
now arriving at platform WIN
JOIN FOFF NOW CHAT CHANNEL FOR RECRUITMENT INFO
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BPOWhore
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Posted - 2009.06.25 20:21:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Elissa I was in a L4 mission today and this dude in a probe zips in and starts salvaging all my wrecks. To my amazement, that apparently is not "stealing". Hmmm??? If it weren't for MY missiles, those wrecks would not be there... what gives... that is total BS. Since I am in 0.5 high-sec; I of course have ZERO recourse since Concord will swoop in and destroy me for killing a thief. And, of course the thief would then loot me too.
That's BS!
1. Mission in lowsec 2. Blow up salvager 3. ???? 4. Proffit.
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Kitimortoa
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Posted - 2009.06.25 20:25:00 -
[45]
Originally by: aka Ishur ****IN THE RARE EVENT THAT THE OP IS NOT A TROLL****
OP: When posting on the forums there are a few steps you need to consider before posting in order to avoid being called a troll. (Doesn't stop you being flamed though for stupid ideas)
1) Consider the topic - does it concern a method of playing that others may have done before. (missioning in your case) - if yes consult evesearch before posting.
2) Decide whether you want to troll.
If you skip step 1 people assume you have answered yes to step 2. Simple.
Posting and you.
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Constable Chang
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.06.25 20:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ana Vyr Why doesn't ninja salvaging break the risk vs reward equation everybody loves to tout in this forum?
There is plenty of risk in salvaging.
Try going into L4 missions in nothing but a t1 frigate with nothing but probe launcher, afterburner, nanos and *maybe* a shield extender or something.
Its not hard to get popped by the mission rats or explosions or gas clouds etc.
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Osvint Gluda
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Posted - 2009.06.25 20:38:00 -
[47]
less than 2 weeks old and im e-famous already!
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temponita
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Posted - 2009.06.25 20:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Elissa I was in a L4 mission today and this dude in a probe zips in and starts salvaging all my wrecks. To my amazement, that apparently is not "stealing". Hmmm??? If it weren't for MY missiles, those wrecks would not be there... what gives... that is total BS. Since I am in 0.5 high-sec; I of course have ZERO recourse since Concord will swoop in and destroy me for killing a thief. And, of course the thief would then loot me too.
That's BS!
I've been missioning for over a year now and I've never once seen or lost a single wreck to these so called Ninja Salvagers... My oppinion is that the ninja profession is a product of noobs and fantasy. And I doubt it has any impact on the reality of the gameplay, otherwise, "someone" at "sometime" would have at least tried to salvage some of the 3500 wrecks from under me don't you think?
Case and point, get a marauder and be done with it. There's a reason these so called Ninja Salvagers don't have any credible stories of Marauder interceptions anyways.
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Osvint Gluda
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Posted - 2009.06.25 20:49:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Constable Chang
Originally by: Ana Vyr Why doesn't ninja salvaging break the risk vs reward equation everybody loves to tout in this forum?
There is plenty of risk in salvaging.
Try going into L4 missions in nothing but a t1 frigate with nothing but probe launcher, afterburner, nanos and *maybe* a shield extender or something.
Its not hard to get popped by the mission rats or explosions or gas clouds etc.
actually all i have is a probe launcher, 1 salvager, an afterburner, a cpu boosting thing, and 800k sp :(
the cash is awesome tho, ive made nearly 100mil isk in about 5 hours playtime |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:05:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Tippia on 25/06/2009 21:05:37
Originally by: Elissa Oh I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have read through the 2,056,345 posts on this board first.
No, but you could have tried the wiki, the knowledge base or the player guide…
Quote: So sorry that I have been away from the game for a year.
No, since it's been like this for (far) more than a year and you should know it already. |
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Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:13:00 -
[51]
i know to stop the constant trolls and whines how about ccp just removed salvage from eve then there will be no salvage for the ninja to ""steal"" so good old runner dosnt loose any of his hard earned isk
how dose that sound |
Stealnutz
Mean Angry Squirrels
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:16:00 -
[52]
Originally by: temponita
Originally by: Elissa I was in a L4 mission today and this dude in a probe zips in and starts salvaging all my wrecks. To my amazement, that apparently is not "stealing". Hmmm??? If it weren't for MY missiles, those wrecks would not be there... what gives... that is total BS. Since I am in 0.5 high-sec; I of course have ZERO recourse since Concord will swoop in and destroy me for killing a thief. And, of course the thief would then loot me too.
That's BS!
I've been missioning for over a year now and I've never once seen or lost a single wreck to these so called Ninja Salvagers... My oppinion is that the ninja profession is a product of noobs and fantasy. And I doubt it has any impact on the reality of the gameplay, otherwise, "someone" at "sometime" would have at least tried to salvage some of the 3500 wrecks from under me don't you think?
Case and point, get a marauder and be done with it. There's a reason these so called Ninja Salvagers don't have any credible stories of Marauder interceptions anyways.
Heard the term 'Butt-hurt Marauder pilot' lately? Marauder my ass, those things are a piece of **** to ninja from. |
Kat Bandeis
Caldari Primagen Research Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:17:00 -
[53]
It's fine just the way it is, no changes needed. CCP has said numerous times in the past that wrecks belong to no one, so can be salvaged. Taking the LOOT, on the other hand, is theft, and earns you aggro. Don't like it? Go back to WoW.
Can't believe people still argue about this crap despite what THE CREATORS OF THE GAME HAVE STATED IN THE PAST. Don't like it? Salvage as you go along; always works for me.
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Kat Bandeis
Caldari Primagen Research Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:20:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Gin G i know to stop the constant trolls and whines how about ccp just removed salvage from eve then there will be no salvage for the ninja to ""steal"" so good old runner dosnt loose any of his hard earned isk
how dose that sound
Sounds like nerf-like crap. Salvaging is a valid profession in Eve, just like missioning. Want to remove salvage? Remove missioning, too.
"how dose that sound"? :)
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Constable Chang
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.06.25 21:47:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Stealnutz
Originally by: temponita
Originally by: Elissa I was in a L4 mission today and this dude in a probe zips in and starts salvaging all my wrecks. To my amazement, that apparently is not "stealing". Hmmm??? If it weren't for MY missiles, those wrecks would not be there... what gives... that is total BS. Since I am in 0.5 high-sec; I of course have ZERO recourse since Concord will swoop in and destroy me for killing a thief. And, of course the thief would then loot me too.
That's BS!
I've been missioning for over a year now and I've never once seen or lost a single wreck to these so called Ninja Salvagers... My oppinion is that the ninja profession is a product of noobs and fantasy. And I doubt it has any impact on the reality of the gameplay, otherwise, "someone" at "sometime" would have at least tried to salvage some of the 3500 wrecks from under me don't you think?
Case and point, get a marauder and be done with it. There's a reason these so called Ninja Salvagers don't have any credible stories of Marauder interceptions anyways.
Heard the term 'Butt-hurt Marauder pilot' lately? Marauder my ass, those things are a piece of **** to ninja from.
Yeah whats with that?
I ninja'd from a marauder pilot the other day.
He was very civilised about it too.
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Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.06.25 22:26:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kat Bandeis
Originally by: Gin G i know to stop the constant trolls and whines how about ccp just removed salvage from eve then there will be no salvage for the ninja to ""steal"" so good old runner dosnt loose any of his hard earned isk
how dose that sound
Sounds like nerf-like crap. Salvaging is a valid profession in Eve, just like missioning. Want to remove salvage? Remove missioning, too.
"how dose that sound"? :)
sounds good as none of us will have to out up with the constant OMG nanja stole ma salvage and i cant d nuthing whines
when can ccp put it in ************ are you getting your 5 a day. |
Some Advisor
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Posted - 2009.06.25 22:49:00 -
[57]
but then MOAR ppl will whine because "eve is all PvP and i hate PvP" :P
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Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.26 11:25:00 -
[58]
Add criminal flagging to salvaging wrecks you/your corp didn't create. The ones who want to fight/gank runners won't care, the runners who won't fight either way won't care, the ones who might not have fought before have the chance they want...ohwate, the poor lil gankbears who just wanna grief with no risk for their salvage will be sad...TOO BAD!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 11:34:00 -
[59]
ITT: Hi-sec mission runners complaining about other people making ISK for no risk.
Next up: George Soros thinks "people have too much money these days".
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Whineroy
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Posted - 2009.06.26 12:06:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Malcanis I have reconsidered my simple solution for an even simpler one:
Remove combat missions from high sec. All those nasty pirate battleships have no place in CONCORD's fluffy wonderland anyway.
I've got an even better solution. Remove all hypocritical ganker-nerd whiners from game. Especially those morons who insist that L4 missions are "too easy ISK" and "no risk involved" in a game with GTC-to-RL- money trade, loads of macros/bots and full of alt spies/thieves/etc. that cannot be traced to main character. In particular remove those hypocritical whiners if they keep whining about how one way of risk-free ISK (L4 missions) is bad but another way of risk-free ISK (ninja salvaging said L4 missions) is perfectly acceptable. |
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Garion Saranto
Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.06.26 13:29:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Garion Saranto on 26/06/2009 13:29:52 This thread seems fun.
I'd like some waffles.
Ninja edit: Snipah!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 13:32:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Whineroy
In particular remove those hypocritical whiners if they keep whining about how one way of risk-free ISK (ninja salvaging said L4 missions) is bad but another way of risk-free ISK (L4 missions) is perfectly acceptable.
fyp
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Drakarin
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.26 14:17:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Drakarin on 26/06/2009 14:25:36 I believe ninja salvaging can be very fun, and very profitable. Too profitable in a sense, but that's not really the issue. The problem really is that you can't attack them back after they clearly do steal from you.
People should be able to do this, but it should absolutely flag them so you can fight back. And this is coming from an aspiring ninja salvager.
Originally by: Tiny Tove Again, for the cheap seats at the back.
This system is what the carebears whined and whined and whined at CCP for weeks for. Previously you could not salvage a wreck that contained items, this forced you to steal the contents before you could salvage. This lead to a lot of dead carebears in asteroid belts.
This lead to weeks of crying on the forum. This lead to being able to salvage wrecks that are full.
This lead to more carebears crying because people were salvaging their wrecks.
I think there is a common theme here. Whatever CCP do, carebears will cry.
It's not about "carebears" crying. It's about the LOGICAL path. It's LOGICAL to allow people to fight back against someone who STEALS from them. It's ILLOGICAL to disallow this. If someone cries because they die defending their salvage, well too bad. You weigh the risks of it.
It's about time high sec got a little risk, and hell, it's not even risk because it's still consensual combat. The only difference is there's a penalty for doing nothing.
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl looting conteiners werent followed by agro mechanics, carebeass whined about it. CCP chaneg it, then careabers whined about being can baiter and poped. Here we go again with salvage ?:D
A fighter, however, merely states that he should have the right to defend his wrecks (yes, HIS, he is the DIRECT reason they exist because HE killed the pirates thus the rewards should be HIS unless challenged) without concord interference.
A coward carebear on the other hand, advocates that mission runners shouldn't even have the ability to attack you back when you steal from their very valuable wreckage.
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Leeluvv
Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:22:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Leeluvv on 26/06/2009 15:24:39
Originally by: Drakarin I believe ninja salvaging can be very fun, and very profitable. Too profitable in a sense, but that's not really the issue. The problem really is that you can't attack them back after they clearly do steal from you.
STOP RIGHT THERE.
Go read CCP's post already linked above (but here it is again: CCP's views on salvage) and then you can edit what you wrote. In fact, I'll just post it here for you:
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around.
NOTE:
"If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding."
Salvaging a wreck that you did not kill IS NOT STEALING, no matter what your PERSONAL OPINION is. (Actually, the wreck belongs to the original owner of the ship and not you, so they are the ones that should whining on the forums).
If wrecks were owned, then the skill would not be called SALVGING, would it.
I don't know whether I should put a sig here or not. |
Drakarin
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:30:00 -
[65]
Then people do not "own" loot either. Because it's the same thing. The only DIFFERENCE is you need a specific module to extra the "other" loot from the wreck. But again, same damn thing. Just because it's inside of a cargo container doesn't make it yours. Like you said, it belongs to the pirate who died.
SO then, either do it logically, or do it fair. The logical way? Make taking loot from a wreck not stealing, as it's clearly not if we follow CCP's post. The fair way is to allow one to fight off those who take from the wreck's you caused. Take your pick. But what we have now is a hypocritical and unfair system. I.E. NOT GOOD. |
Kezzle
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:38:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tiny Tove Again, for the cheap seats at the back.
This system is what the carebears whined and whined and whined at CCP for weeks for. Previously you could not salvage a wreck that contained items, this forced you to steal the contents before you could salvage. This lead to a lot of dead carebears in asteroid belts.
This lead to weeks of crying on the forum. This lead to being able to salvage wrecks that are full.
This lead to more carebears crying because people were salvaging their wrecks.
I think there is a common theme here. Whatever CCP do, carebears will cry.
ROFL!
Thanks for explaining the history :) A fine example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. |
Sloppy Podfarts
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:53:00 -
[67]
Such sweet delicious tears... is the same kid that started the other thread about getting owned by high level pilots?
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:54:00 -
[68]
Have only seen a 'non-fleeted salvager' pop into a mission once. Three of us chugging through, 2x BS and 1xBC. Salvager pops in. Once we realize what he's doing and since he won't respond to calls in local to discuss, we dispatch the BC to follow him around and blow up the wrecks while he's salvaging.
Once he realized that we'd rather destroy the wrecks rather than let him get them, he moved on...didn't want to waste his time. Cost us about 6 wrecks...chump change. |
Sanimya
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:54:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Drakarin Then people do not "own" loot either. Because it's the same thing. The only DIFFERENCE is you need a specific module to extra the "other" loot from the wreck. But again, same damn thing. Just because it's inside of a cargo container doesn't make it yours. Like you said, it belongs to the pirate who died.
SO then, either do it logically, or do it fair. The logical way? Make taking loot from a wreck not stealing, as it's clearly not if we follow CCP's post. The fair way is to allow one to fight off those who take from the wreck's you caused. Take your pick. But what we have now is a hypocritical and unfair system. I.E. NOT GOOD.
I absolutely agree with this. I worked to create those wrecks the ninja is salvaging, I would like the option to defend the fruit of my labor. Let me make the choice to fight back, rather than just sit there in frustration watching someone waltz in and take what I've created. It really isn't fair, the salvage should be treated in exactly the same way as the loot, but CCP has tied my hands by creating a mechanic whereby people can steal from me with no risk whatsoever that I can retaliate. If I want to risk my faction fitted mission ship, that should be my choice. It makes no logical sense to me that in a reputed PvP game, I can not defend against this activity. To the person who said this has never happened to them, you're apparently in an area away from a major trade hub where the ninja's don't hang out. I've had missions where as many as 3 or 4 ninja salvagers would show up and I've taken to blowing up my wrecks to make it less profitable for them. I'm all for the risk versus reward thing and don't believe that Empire needs to be 100% safe and secure. I'm just opposed to having my choice to fight over what I've worked for taken away from me. You want to salvage my missions, that's your choice. I want to fight for my salvage, that should be mine.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:59:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sanimya
Originally by: Drakarin Then people do not "own" loot either. Because it's the same thing. The only DIFFERENCE is you need a specific module to extra the "other" loot from the wreck. But again, same damn thing. Just because it's inside of a cargo container doesn't make it yours. Like you said, it belongs to the pirate who died.
SO then, either do it logically, or do it fair. The logical way? Make taking loot from a wreck not stealing, as it's clearly not if we follow CCP's post. The fair way is to allow one to fight off those who take from the wreck's you caused. Take your pick. But what we have now is a hypocritical and unfair system. I.E. NOT GOOD.
I absolutely agree with this. I worked to create those wrecks the ninja is salvaging, I would like the option to defend the fruit of my labor. Let me make the choice to fight back, rather than just sit there in frustration watching someone waltz in and take what I've created. It really isn't fair, the salvage should be treated in exactly the same way as the loot, but CCP has tied my hands by creating a mechanic whereby people can steal from me with no risk whatsoever that I can retaliate. If I want to risk my faction fitted mission ship, that should be my choice. It makes no logical sense to me that in a reputed PvP game, I can not defend against this activity. To the person who said this has never happened to them, you're apparently in an area away from a major trade hub where the ninja's don't hang out. I've had missions where as many as 3 or 4 ninja salvagers would show up and I've taken to blowing up my wrecks to make it less profitable for them. I'm all for the risk versus reward thing and don't believe that Empire needs to be 100% safe and secure. I'm just opposed to having my choice to fight over what I've worked for taken away from me. You want to salvage my missions, that's your choice. I want to fight for my salvage, that should be mine.
If you mission in low/null sec you can do exactly that. There are different rules in hi-sec because...well...it's hi-sec. The ruleset you are looking for is available in another area of the game.
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temponita
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:05:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Constable Chang Yeah whats with that?
I ninja'd from a marauder pilot the other day.
He was very civilised about it too.
Well yes! And you most certainly won the lottery too! See how that works :)
Like I said... noobs and fantasies. That's the stuff it's made of. |
Drakarin
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:11:00 -
[72]
Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: Sanimya
Originally by: Drakarin Then people do not "own" loot either. Because it's the same thing. The only DIFFERENCE is you need a specific module to extra the "other" loot from the wreck. But again, same damn thing. Just because it's inside of a cargo container doesn't make it yours. Like you said, it belongs to the pirate who died.
SO then, either do it logically, or do it fair. The logical way? Make taking loot from a wreck not stealing, as it's clearly not if we follow CCP's post. The fair way is to allow one to fight off those who take from the wreck's you caused. Take your pick. But what we have now is a hypocritical and unfair system. I.E. NOT GOOD.
I absolutely agree with this. I worked to create those wrecks the ninja is salvaging, I would like the option to defend the fruit of my labor. Let me make the choice to fight back, rather than just sit there in frustration watching someone waltz in and take what I've created. It really isn't fair, the salvage should be treated in exactly the same way as the loot, but CCP has tied my hands by creating a mechanic whereby people can steal from me with no risk whatsoever that I can retaliate. If I want to risk my faction fitted mission ship, that should be my choice. It makes no logical sense to me that in a reputed PvP game, I can not defend against this activity. To the person who said this has never happened to them, you're apparently in an area away from a major trade hub where the ninja's don't hang out. I've had missions where as many as 3 or 4 ninja salvagers would show up and I've taken to blowing up my wrecks to make it less profitable for them. I'm all for the risk versus reward thing and don't believe that Empire needs to be 100% safe and secure. I'm just opposed to having my choice to fight over what I've worked for taken away from me. You want to salvage my missions, that's your choice. I want to fight for my salvage, that should be mine.
If you mission in low/null sec you can do exactly that. There are different rules in hi-sec because...well...it's hi-sec. The ruleset you are looking for is available in another area of the game.
So that's your argument? CCP allowing ninja salvagers to get off SCOTT FREE with NO risk at all, due to INGAME mechanics, ugh. That's it? Working as a deterrent huh? It just ****es me off. Concord in general gets on my nerves.
They are Unbeatable, untargettable, unescapable ships of quantum ultra super powered Godly technology that of course no one can ever get or make because it DOENS'T actually EXIST in the game, that for some reason can hone in on ANY action I make against ANYONE in the system, but yet can't clear out the infinitely respawning pirate factions all around.
Does no one care for immersion in the game anymore? Of course it's not only about the role-playing factor or atmosphere of EvE, but simply put, EvE shouldn't be safe. CCP keeps saying that they want it to be a cruel harsh world but quite frankly, I don't think it is at all. PvP is consensual. The only time it isn't is if you're suicide ganked, which happens maybe once a year. If ever.
Unless you're a fool without common sense, this game can be played entirely, 100% safely in high sec. And no one bats an eye to this...
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Decarus
Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:26:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Decarus on 26/06/2009 16:26:28
Originally by: Drakarin Unless you're a fool without common sense, this game can be played entirely, 100% safely in high sec. And no one bats an eye to this...
Mission runners are also untargettable and all that jazz wile they are in high sec. As a former industrialist that decided to move out to nullsec because of the evolution of high sec market which I blame squarely on mission runners selling their loot / refined loot for ridiculous prices as they seem to think their time is free so the stuff should be priced at 10% of it's real price just to sell immediately. If you feel you have any demands on being allowed to shoot people who reduce your ISK generation, I want to be able to shoot you for messing with mine. And I can. Just not in Empire because empire has stupid carebear cuddling rules and we ALL have to deal with it. Not just the not so carebearish portion of high sec space.
Also, JihadSwarm would seriously disagree with the quoted statement. But you're new, so you probably don't know what that is. |
Stealnutz
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:29:00 -
[74]
Once you accept the fact that salvage is simply a resource, which is there to be gathered, and not some prize which the mission runner is entitled to, all this blurf will fade away. Meh, who am I kidding... |
Drakarin
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:37:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Stealnutz Once you accept the fact that salvage is simply a resource, which is there to be gathered, and not some prize which the mission runner is entitled to, all this blurf will fade away. Meh, who am I kidding...
It's a resource GENERATED by the player. Salvage from wrecks no one killed (if for example pirate NPC factions actually faught each other) wouldn't belong to anyone, I agree. But if I kill a pirate, I AM DIRECTLY and 100% responsible for that wreck being there. So, either it's ENTIRELY mine, or NOT MINE AT ALL INCLUDING THE LOOT. Make up your damn mind CCP, and stop with this carebear crap.
The game has great potential to be really harsh and brutal (which unlocks so much potential for excitement and fun it's immersurable). Just harvest that potential by dismantling the carebear cuddle me high sec invincible godlike Concord. |
Debolika
Amarr 501st Providence Light Defense Squadron
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:57:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Intigo Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.
This needs discussing as it has never been discussed before.
STFU. Its not like this forum is blazing with activity, and your threads scroll off after 5 minutes. No, this forum is dead. So reposting about the same topic really doesn't mean much. Not like this is WoW General Discussion.
Some of you elitist *****s need to get off your high-horse. For a game with such a steep learning cureve, these forums are extremely unwelcoming. Grow up. |
Sanimya
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:06:00 -
[77]
Astroids are a resource, there to be gathered. Scan sites are a resource, there to be gathered. Constantly respawning belt rats are a resource. FFA. I had nothing to do with them being there and whoever gets there first, or is most aggressive in harvesting, has the right to the profit. I don't think missions fall into quite the same category, but that's not my problem. My problem is the inconsistency. As stated earlier, the salvage logically is absolutely no different from the loot. Both are there because I killed the rat. To have them treated differently makes no sense and contributes to the frustration people feel over the thriving new profession of "ninja salvager." Either they both belong to me and I can defend or not, as I chose - or they are both FFA. If taking either loot or salvage would flag you as a thief, CCP would be merely providing people with a way to defend against griefers. I'm not against stealing, I'm against protected stealing. People deserve the right to chose to fight for what they feel is theirs without CONCORD intervention. OK, you don't want to fight, that's fine, too, and the salvagers will thrive with your blessing. But this omnipotent CONCORD defense of players who are basically thieves is bull. Risk versus reward, remember? The ninja's have virtually no risk whatsoever and potentially incredibly high rewards, all the while being protected by CONCORD.
As for missioning in low/null sec - that's a joke. Been there, done that. It's almost impossible to even finish a mission what with the gank squads coming in and adding their agro to the agro you already have from the mission rats, killing your mission rats and stealing the loot you need to turn in for completion. Add in the fact that a mission ship needs a totally different fitting from a PvP ship, and you're just screwed. A couple of years ago, null sec was a fun place to live but people have changed, EVE has changed, and for the present I prefer to live in Empire. EVE is all about choices, that's what makes it so interesting. If someone chooses to play a thief, that's fine with me, it's your choice. If you're a scammer, that's also fine with me, "let the buyer beware." Adds spice. All I ask is that someone who makes the choice to be a ninja salvager has to face the same risks as a loot thief in order to gain his reward. Hey - you scan me down and go for my salvage, who knows, I may be a total carebear and not attack, but then again, I might. It would add spice to your life, too!
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:12:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 26/06/2009 17:12:44
Originally by: Sanimya
Originally by: Drakarin Then people do not "own" loot either. Because it's the same thing. The only DIFFERENCE is you need a specific module to extra the "other" loot from the wreck. But again, same damn thing. Just because it's inside of a cargo container doesn't make it yours. Like you said, it belongs to the pirate who died.
SO then, either do it logically, or do it fair. The logical way? Make taking loot from a wreck not stealing, as it's clearly not if we follow CCP's post. The fair way is to allow one to fight off those who take from the wreck's you caused. Take your pick. But what we have now is a hypocritical and unfair system. I.E. NOT GOOD.
I absolutely agree with this. I worked to create those wrecks the ninja is salvaging, I would like the option to defend the fruit of my labor. Let me make the choice to fight back, rather than just sit there in frustration watching someone waltz in and take what I've created. It really isn't fair, the salvage should be treated in exactly the same way as the loot, but CCP has tied my hands by creating a mechanic whereby people can steal from me with no risk whatsoever that I can retaliate. If I want to risk my faction fitted mission ship, that should be my choice. It makes no logical sense to me that in a reputed PvP game, I can not defend against this activity. To the person who said this has never happened to them, you're apparently in an area away from a major trade hub where the ninja's don't hang out. I've had missions where as many as 3 or 4 ninja salvagers would show up and I've taken to blowing up my wrecks to make it less profitable for them. I'm all for the risk versus reward thing and don't believe that Empire needs to be 100% safe and secure. I'm just opposed to having my choice to fight over what I've worked for taken away from me. You want to salvage my missions, that's your choice. I want to fight for my salvage, that should be mine.
Sounds like an excellent idea. Looting a wreck should flag you to the faction owning the wreck, rather than the current system where the guy that blew up the ship owns the wreck.
(Be careful of what you ask)
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Drakarin
Gallente Amarrian-Guard
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:14:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 26/06/2009 17:12:44
Originally by: Sanimya
Originally by: Drakarin Then people do not "own" loot either. Because it's the same thing. The only DIFFERENCE is you need a specific module to extra the "other" loot from the wreck. But again, same damn thing. Just because it's inside of a cargo container doesn't make it yours. Like you said, it belongs to the pirate who died.
SO then, either do it logically, or do it fair. The logical way? Make taking loot from a wreck not stealing, as it's clearly not if we follow CCP's post. The fair way is to allow one to fight off those who take from the wreck's you caused. Take your pick. But what we have now is a hypocritical and unfair system. I.E. NOT GOOD.
I absolutely agree with this. I worked to create those wrecks the ninja is salvaging, I would like the option to defend the fruit of my labor. Let me make the choice to fight back, rather than just sit there in frustration watching someone waltz in and take what I've created. It really isn't fair, the salvage should be treated in exactly the same way as the loot, but CCP has tied my hands by creating a mechanic whereby people can steal from me with no risk whatsoever that I can retaliate. If I want to risk my faction fitted mission ship, that should be my choice. It makes no logical sense to me that in a reputed PvP game, I can not defend against this activity. To the person who said this has never happened to them, you're apparently in an area away from a major trade hub where the ninja's don't hang out. I've had missions where as many as 3 or 4 ninja salvagers would show up and I've taken to blowing up my wrecks to make it less profitable for them. I'm all for the risk versus reward thing and don't believe that Empire needs to be 100% safe and secure. I'm just opposed to having my choice to fight over what I've worked for taken away from me. You want to salvage my missions, that's your choice. I want to fight for my salvage, that should be mine.
Sounds like an excellent idea. Looting a wreck should flag you to the faction owning the wreck, rather than the current system where the guy that blew up the ship owns the wreck.
(Be careful of what you ask)
I'm asking for consistency and a logical approach that actually MAKES sense. Loot is not different from salvage. That's established. Now either let me defend both, or none. BUT MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
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Sanimya
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:20:00 -
[80]
Honestly, that's not a bad idea. As the mission runner, I'm already flagged to the faction owning the wreck, so that wouldn't affect me at all. Adding an aggression flag to whoever loots/salvages the wreck would increase the risk to the ninja salvager and might solve a lot of problems. It's the fact that they can waltz in with absolutely no fear of reprisal from any faction (mine or NPC) that makes people crazy.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:31:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Drakarin
I'm asking for consistency and a logical approach that actually MAKES sense. Loot is not different from salvage. That's established. Now either let me defend both, or none. BUT MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
But, it appears that CCP disagrees with you (ref CCP Prism X quote above--again):
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.
It seems quite clear: Loot is mission reward--ownable. Salvage is not mission reward--not ownable.
KB |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:33:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Sanimya Honestly, that's not a bad idea. As the mission runner, I'm already flagged to the faction owning the wreck, so that wouldn't affect me at all. Adding an aggression flag to whoever loots/salvages the wreck would increase the risk to the ninja salvager and might solve a lot of problems. It's the fact that they can waltz in with absolutely no fear of reprisal from any faction (mine or NPC) that makes people crazy.
Yes. Let's make that (non)change — everyone will be happy then. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Drakarin
Gallente Amarrian-Guard
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:16:00 -
[83]
Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: Drakarin
I'm asking for consistency and a logical approach that actually MAKES sense. Loot is not different from salvage. That's established. Now either let me defend both, or none. BUT MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
But, it appears that CCP disagrees with you (ref CCP Prism X quote above--again):
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.
It seems quite clear: Loot is mission reward--ownable. Salvage is not mission reward--not ownable.
Lol, they can say what they want. If I blow up a ship, and it has loot and wreckage, then either they both belong to me or they do not. It's that simple. They need to make up their mind, not dance around the issue. |
Osvint Gluda
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:18:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Drakarin
Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: Drakarin
I'm asking for consistency and a logical approach that actually MAKES sense. Loot is not different from salvage. That's established. Now either let me defend both, or none. BUT MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
But, it appears that CCP disagrees with you (ref CCP Prism X quote above--again):
If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.
It seems quite clear: Loot is mission reward--ownable. Salvage is not mission reward--not ownable.
Lol, they can say what they want. If I blow up a ship, and it has loot and wreckage, then either they both belong to me or they do not. It's that simple. They need to make up their mind, not dance around the issue.
until i show up and drink your milkshake
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:25:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Drakarin They need to make up their mind, not dance around the issue.
They already have. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:29:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Sanimya
Originally by: Drakarin Then people do not "own" loot either. Because it's the same thing. The only DIFFERENCE is you need a specific module to extra the "other" loot from the wreck. But again, same damn thing. Just because it's inside of a cargo container doesn't make it yours. Like you said, it belongs to the pirate who died.
SO then, either do it logically, or do it fair. The logical way? Make taking loot from a wreck not stealing, as it's clearly not if we follow CCP's post. The fair way is to allow one to fight off those who take from the wreck's you caused. Take your pick. But what we have now is a hypocritical and unfair system. I.E. NOT GOOD.
I absolutely agree with this. I worked to create those wrecks the ninja is salvaging, I would like the option to defend the fruit of my labor. Let me make the choice to fight back, rather than just sit there in frustration watching someone waltz in and take what I've created. It really isn't fair, the salvage should be treated in exactly the same way as the loot, but CCP has tied my hands by creating a mechanic whereby people can steal from me with no risk whatsoever that I can retaliate. If I want to risk my faction fitted mission ship, that should be my choice. It makes no logical sense to me that in a reputed PvP game, I can not defend against this activity. To the person who said this has never happened to them, you're apparently in an area away from a major trade hub where the ninja's don't hang out. I've had missions where as many as 3 or 4 ninja salvagers would show up and I've taken to blowing up my wrecks to make it less profitable for them. I'm all for the risk versus reward thing and don't believe that Empire needs to be 100% safe and secure. I'm just opposed to having my choice to fight over what I've worked for taken away from me. You want to salvage my missions, that's your choice. I want to fight for my salvage, that should be mine.
The good news is that there is another place to mission... a magical place, a wonderland if you will, where you get much more LP per mission AND the LP are worth more AND you can shoot anyone you like at any time! Not even a sec hit!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:30:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Drakarin They need to make up their mind, not dance around the issue.
They already have.
Repeatedly.
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Drakarin
Gallente Amarrian-Guard
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:48:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Drakarin on 26/06/2009 18:48:36
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Drakarin They need to make up their mind, not dance around the issue.
They already have.
I meant reach a LOGICAL conclusion. An arbritrary separation of loot from salvage is NOT logical. It makes no sense at all. WHY would the loot be mine, but not the salvage? They both came from the same ship and are there entirely because of me. |
Osvint Gluda
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:50:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Osvint Gluda on 26/06/2009 18:50:44
Originally by: Drakarin Edited by: Drakarin on 26/06/2009 18:48:36
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Drakarin They need to make up their mind, not dance around the issue.
They already have.
I meant reach a LOGICAL conclusion. An arbritrary separation of loot from salvage is NOT logical. It makes no sense at all. WHY would the loot be mine, but not the salvage? They both came from the same ship and are there entirely because of me.
yeah well your ship moves through three dimensional space faster than light |
BackAlley Butch
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:52:00 -
[90]
Good gawd, mission runner tears. How friggin' pathetic... |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 18:57:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Drakarin Edited by: Drakarin on 26/06/2009 18:48:36
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Drakarin They need to make up their mind, not dance around the issue.
They already have.
I meant reach a LOGICAL conclusion. An arbritrary separation of loot from salvage is NOT logical. It makes no sense at all. WHY would the loot be mine, but not the salvage? They both came from the same ship and are there entirely because of me.
Oh, you mean, LOGICAL as in: the answer you want.
Listen, this is a video game. Stuff making sense (to you) is nice but not mandatory. CCP have said over and over and over that salvage was intended right from the start to be free for all, not an increase to mission rewards.
And in fact real life is sometimes that way too. I personally find it laughably stupid that copyright - a monomopoly granted to encourage and reward artists - persists 70 years after the auther's death. But there it is; that's the law. |
Drakarin
Gallente Amarrian-Guard
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Posted - 2009.06.26 19:00:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Drakarin on 26/06/2009 19:01:53 Edited by: Drakarin on 26/06/2009 19:01:39
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Drakarin Edited by: Drakarin on 26/06/2009 18:48:36
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Drakarin They need to make up their mind, not dance around the issue.
They already have.
I meant reach a LOGICAL conclusion. An arbritrary separation of loot from salvage is NOT logical. It makes no sense at all. WHY would the loot be mine, but not the salvage? They both came from the same ship and are there entirely because of me.
Oh, you mean, LOGICAL as in: the answer you want.
Listen, this is a video game. Stuff making sense (to you) is nice but not mandatory. CCP have said over and over and over that salvage was intended right from the start to be free for all, not an increase to mission rewards.
And in fact real life is sometimes that way too. I personally find it laughably stupid that copyright - a monomopoly granted to encourage and reward artists - persists 70 years after the auther's death. But there it is; that's the law.
Ha, well, you're sort of proving my point. Since when has the law been the holy grail of logic?
Look, I'm trying to present my point as best I can. Maybe it's arrogant to think I'm right but man, it just seems so simple. If loot comes from a ship I destroy, it belongs to me, yet the wreckage doesn't? ... where is the logic in that? Really...
Originally by: Osvint Gluda Edited by: Osvint Gluda on 26/06/2009 18:50:44
Originally by: Drakarin Edited by: Drakarin on 26/06/2009 18:48:36
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Drakarin They need to make up their mind, not dance around the issue.
They already have.
I meant reach a LOGICAL conclusion. An arbritrary separation of loot from salvage is NOT logical. It makes no sense at all. WHY would the loot be mine, but not the salvage? They both came from the same ship and are there entirely because of me.
yeah well your ship moves through three dimensional space faster than light
Warp drive. Hence, you're out of phase with the universe and 3D space. Oh now you're making me get my geek on. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 20:13:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Drakarin is not getting it
Jesus, it's like talking to a wall.
The mods in the wreck, and the salvage that can be derived from the wreck by the application of ADDITIONAL EFFORT, EQUIPMENT AND SKILLS have a different legal status. This is not entirely unreasonable. If I buy flour, water, yeast, an oven and bake a loaf in my own kitchen, it belongs to me. If I work in a bakery, using their equipment and premises, it belongs to them. WTF - why isn't that my loaf? I MADE IT!!!!11eleven
And over and all above that: Because CCP said so; it's their universe and what they say goes. They're the word of God in this, and Vox Deus is that salvage is free for all. They created salvage specifically to allow a new profession. Merely because it seems a lot like the mission loot in no way forces, implies or mandates them to treat it like mission loot.
Now given that they have repeatedly, consistently and frequently said that a salvager isn't going to be flagged, I suggest you just accept it, find ways to work around it or move on. |
Cory Sopapilla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.26 20:19:00 -
[94]
I don't see why people don't want it to make them flashy red. The pirates already can flip in hopes of getting someone to take the bait and shoot at them or steal back. It'd be another avenue for them and pretty much the same thing. |
Johnny Dexter
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Posted - 2009.06.26 20:32:00 -
[95]
Come to nullsec, here players can make their own rules. Taking valuable stuff from a wreck that doesn't belong to you IS stealing, no matter what the silly game mechanics say.
0.0, making life just as (un)fair as you want since 2003*
*warning: may cause confusion, adaptation problems and difficulties getting used to freedom after long term life in high sec. |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.06.26 21:36:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla I don't see why people don't want it to make them flashy red.
Because that would signify that salvage somehow belongs to the mission runner when it does not. Salvage is not an part of the mission income — it's a bonus you have to work for. Your effort to gain that bonus is exactly the same (or, in fact, less) than the effort required by the ninja salvagers, which is why they have as much right to it as the mission runners.
Originally by: Drakarin I meant reach a LOGICAL conclusion.
Utterly and completely irrelevant. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
StationSpinner
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Posted - 2009.06.26 21:37:00 -
[97]
I thought that the last three posts on the previous page were all by the same person
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Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.06.26 22:15:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Kessiaan on 26/06/2009 22:15:21 I think the best way to solve this problem is to make everything the same.
Now, if you die in pvp, your wreck belongs to you and not the person that blew you up. As this makes sense and is very logical, we should extend this to PvE. All wrecks belong to the original owner (Serpentis corporation or whoever) and not to the mission runner. Additionally, all salvage is the property of the wreck's owner.
Of course, some modifications to tractoring mechanics will need to occur since all mission wrecks will be yellow, but that should be trivial for CCP.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.06.26 22:21:00 -
[99]
"Agressive salvaging" is rightly not a 'crime'. But it should cause an aggression flag, thus allowing the mission runner the opportunity to "agressively deny salvage rights" should the mission runner choose to do so, in exactly the same manner as can theft. CONCORD should not be involved against either party.
-- Becq Starforged
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Zodern
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Posted - 2009.06.26 23:00:00 -
[100]
Originally by: temponita Case and point, get a marauder and be done with it. There's a reason these so called Ninja Salvagers don't have any credible stories of Marauder interceptions anyways.
I actually kinda like salvaging from Marauders Thing is, I fly faster than their tractors, so salvaging targets they're pulling to them? Awesome. Profit is definitely lower than scanning down the more common L4 running ships, but it has a higher percentage chance of generating tears (in my experience), which makes it so worth it.
Oh, and before you go "shoot the wrecks until you leave," I like that, too. Sure, I don't make any ISK, but it takes no effort at all to stay around long enough to make sure the bear has to shoot every single wreck, wasting some ammo, some time missioning, and any loot they could've gotten, which hey, I might not've made out well, but at least everyone was deprived! ^_^ Sooo not a loss for me. |
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heheheh
PedoHamma
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Posted - 2009.06.27 01:38:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Ana Vyr Why doesn't ninja salvaging break the risk vs reward equation everybody loves to tout in this forum?
The risk is rubbish because the reward is rubbish.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.06.27 01:39:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 27/06/2009 01:40:49
Quote: Case and point, get a marauder and be done with it. There's a reason these so called Ninja Salvagers don't have any credible stories of Marauder interceptions anyways.
Why would we?
Ninjaing from a marauder is mundane. It's nothing worth making a post or story over. You fly up, orbit, and nab the wrecks out of the tractors using your superior agility/speed. Yawn.
Quote: Why doesn't ninja salvaging break the risk vs reward equation everybody loves to tout in this forum?
I've openly called for a heavy nerfbat to hit missions. Because such a nerf would naturally have to nerf the salvage/loot from missions, it would also be a ninjasalvaging nerf.
It's not that ninjaing doesn't need a nerf, it's just that it's ****ing nonsensical to nerf ninjasalvaging without nerfing missions as well. If you think that ninjasalvaging is imbalanced for the risk/reward, then it's just dishonest to not say the same thing about missions.
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Drakarin
Gallente Amarrian-Guard
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Posted - 2009.06.27 01:47:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Drakarin is not getting it
Jesus, it's like talking to a wall.
The mods in the wreck, and the salvage that can be derived from the wreck by the application of ADDITIONAL EFFORT, EQUIPMENT AND SKILLS have a different legal status. This is not entirely unreasonable. If I buy flour, water, yeast, an oven and bake a loaf in my own kitchen, it belongs to me. If I work in a bakery, using their equipment and premises, it belongs to them. WTF - why isn't that my loaf? I MADE IT!!!!11eleven
Your analogy is incorrect. If salvaging is cooking bread, then looting would simply be something a little easier, because it still requires certain skills and equipment to produce. Man it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they're the same damn thing, the only difference is one requires a slightly harder tool to get.
Quote: And over and all above that: Because CCP said so; it's their universe and what they say goes. They're the word of God in this, and Vox Deus is that salvage is free for all. They created salvage specifically to allow a new profession. Merely because it seems a lot like the mission loot in no way forces, implies or mandates them to treat it like mission loot.
I'm not saying I have the right to change anything. CCP could turn their universe into the land of unicorns and I wouldn't be able to do anything about it, with the exception of one thing, posting my opinions on their official forum.
Quote: Now given that they have repeatedly, consistently and frequently said that a salvager isn't going to be flagged, I suggest you just accept it, find ways to work around it or move on.
Nope. I voice my opinions when I have an issue with something. I recognize I can be here for ten years saying it and it may never change, but I'll be damned if I'm ever stopped saying it. |
Demon Azrakel
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Posted - 2009.06.27 02:22:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Sanimya Honestly, that's not a bad idea. As the mission runner, I'm already flagged to the faction owning the wreck, so that wouldn't affect me at all. Adding an aggression flag to whoever loots/salvages the wreck would increase the risk to the ninja salvager and might solve a lot of problems. It's the fact that they can waltz in with absolutely no fear of reprisal from any faction (mine or NPC) that makes people crazy.
TBH, why are pirate factions allowed to have your flag and go unpunished and wtfpwned by concord anyway? Aside from low level training drones, created by concord, shouldn't concord's wtfpwning any pirates that enter or shoot at mission runners just make high sec safe and mean that missions must only take place in lowsec (agents in highsec would only send missioners to lowsec for missions)? This makes sense, as mission runners never shot at the pirates, and pirates and those w/ low security status and low standings with concord (see npc pirates and normal pirates) are wtfpwned whenever they enter system wherever they are in system, even off the grid...
Ofc, taking from wrecks that concord wtfpwns, including salvage, should make them come in and wtfpwn you as well...
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mari essence
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Posted - 2009.07.11 20:07:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Intigo Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.
This needs discussing as it has never been discussed before.
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