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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.06.25 15:53:00 -
[1]
This module should have been the means for races like Caldari to have their energy demanding tank survive, seeing as they don't have the mids to spare for a cap injector, let alone microwarpdrive and sensor booster before being left with the tank of a cruiser anyway.
It's a forgone conclusion by now that people would rather have a capless tank and energy using weapons rather than capless weapons and energy using tank, otherwise you're going to have a lot of trouble deaggressing and escaping in the new tank and gank era of eve where near enough all forms of ewar have been nerfed into the floor but where energy neuts feature prominentely.
Neut domi's are probably the most common ship ingame now due to how screwed up the balance is.
It doesn't matter if you've got a nosferatu fitted you are still going to get neuted into the floor hard enough to get even your damage control turned off by a dedicated ship.
Suggestion : Bring all the cycles of Small Medium and Large nosferatu down to around 1 second a piece and change the energy transfer amounts accordingly to keep it within ratio, possibly including a marginal boost to energy transfer amount of around 10%.
Lengthy gaps between cycle times particularly on the large nosferatu is more than enough to make the purpose of the module become worthless and I thought they were originally supposed to be a sort of constant vampire-esque drain, not some long charging weapon.
I realise bringing the numbers down to that small a level would make it hard to tweak the energy amounts for faction variants without not having round numbers, but you could tweak the cycle timers instead, 1.25 seconds instead of 1 second, etc... |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.25 16:22:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Durzel on 25/06/2009 16:25:27 I sortof agree, but think it would better if they neuts were brought into line with the other EW rather than arbitrary NOS buffs.
The "problem" imo with neuts is that any ship can fit them and if you have enough cap to run them yourself (especially if you don't need cap much yourself) you can just wreck other ships, particularly smaller ones.
With Energy Emissions V a T2 Heavy Neut drains 600 cap and uses 375. 3 cycles of that will cap out any cruiser, HAC, etc and the Domi (for example) has 5000 cap unbonused - plenty to cap out anything smaller than it.
I'd sooner see the true cap warfare ships (Bhaal, Curse, Pilgrim & co) get even bigger bonuses to them using neuts, but heavily penalise the usage on unbonused ships.
If you think about it - ECM is largely useless (or at least unreliable) on unbonused ships and very powerful on a Falcon, why is it that neuts effectiveness is only constrained by your own capacitor, and doesn't factor in attacking smaller ships (e.g. as NOS now does).
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:15:00 -
[3]
You forgot to show me WHY nosf needs a buff, i would say that its still very good module for certain ships and is fine as it is. |
silken mouth
Gallente Core Genes Applied Technologies
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:32:00 -
[4]
i didnt check your domi example, i simply assume its correct, but keep in mind that the domi (likt the scorp) trade this special ability for dps.
a neut domi will never deal as much damage as a geddon.
the fact that a bs can neut a smaller ship dry is imo intended as it is one of the few defence mechanisms it has against smaller ships. the domi might be nasty in this case as the combination of neuts and drones warrants a higher probable death to smaller ships, it is however outperfomed by other bs, so there is balance. |
Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:50:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ausser on 25/06/2009 17:50:41 The purpose of long cycle time of large nos/neut is to give small ships a chance to recharge.
If you bring it down to 1s then it is too easy to keep your foe empty with only one nos/neut.
For me, the whole neut/nos stuff looks pretty balanced.
You can get small amounts of cap using nos to counter your own cap loss.
You can neut your foe when you spend enough effort into your own cap supply (e.g. cap transfer from mates or by nosing another target meanwhile).
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.06.25 20:24:00 -
[6]
I think nosferatus should work like they did traditionally, only instead drain a % rather than an amount, to prevent you from capping out a target.
For example, if a Tech 1 Medium nos was in operation, it would suck 5% of the enemy capacitor every say, 10 seconds. That means as their cap fluctuates, you would receive fluctuating cap to match. Tech 2 may drain 10%.
Just a thought.
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Agent Known
Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.06.25 23:31:00 -
[7]
In speaking of being capped out through the floor, I did encounter a situation on SiSi where I was neuted to a point where I couldn't even activate my Damage Control...and ANY cap I had disappeared (even with a cap booster 800).
The NOS nerf severely buffed neuts to a point where, as said above, makes it easy to effectively disable any ship with a dedicated neuter. Combine that with jamming and you have a lock that's impossible to break out of.
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Commander Yassir
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.06.26 00:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Agent Known In speaking of being capped out through the floor, I did encounter a situation on SiSi where I was neuted to a point where I couldn't even activate my Damage Control...and ANY cap I had disappeared (even with a cap booster 800).
The NOS nerf severely buffed neuts to a point where, as said above, makes it easy to effectively disable any ship with a dedicated neuter. Combine that with jamming and you have a lock that's almost impossible to break out of.
Fixed it and bolded the important bits. It takes a dedicated nuet ship to do that, thus they sacrifice a lot of dps. Balance. Now, if you are talking about just bring the NOS down to your shorter runtime idea then yea, that would be fine, but nuets are fine as they are. |
Princess Misha
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.06.26 03:33:00 -
[9]
IMO
Nos should have much better range than neut.
something like: T2 S nos 12 km, M nos 24, L nos 36 T2 S neut 8 km, M 10, L 14
OR
overloading nos should improve range. overloading neut stays the same: improving energy neutralised.
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Diabolyc
Amarr thx for all the fish Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.06.26 03:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Princess Misha IMO
Nos should have much better range than neut.
something like: T2 S nos 12 km, M nos 24, L nos 36 T2 S neut 8 km, M 10, L 14
OR
overloading nos should improve range. overloading neut stays the same: improving energy neutralised.
lol so what - L faction/officer nos on 70-80km range? i can see geddons fited with only L nos
and what with ships like curse and pilgrim?
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Alfons Richthofen
Caldari Die Luftwaffe
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Posted - 2009.06.26 05:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Durzel Edited by: Durzel on 25/06/2009 16:25:27 I sortof agree, but think it would better if they neuts were brought into line with the other EW rather than arbitrary NOS buffs.
The "problem" imo with neuts is that any ship can fit them and if you have enough cap to run them yourself (especially if you don't need cap much yourself) you can just wreck other ships, particularly smaller ones.
With Energy Emissions V a T2 Heavy Neut drains 600 cap and uses 375. 3 cycles of that will cap out any cruiser, HAC, etc and the Domi (for example) has 5000 cap unbonused - plenty to cap out anything smaller than it.
I'd sooner see the true cap warfare ships (Bhaal, Curse, Pilgrim & co) get even bigger bonuses to them using neuts, but heavily penalise the usage on unbonused ships.
If you think about it - ECM is largely useless (or at least unreliable) on unbonused ships and very powerful on a Falcon, why is it that neuts effectiveness is only constrained by your own capacitor, and doesn't factor in attacking smaller ships (e.g. as NOS now does).
This, perfect. Nerf neuts on unfocused ships. (Dominix is a great example)
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Nikuno
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Posted - 2009.06.26 14:09:00 -
[12]
Given the huge prevalence of buffered armour tanks and passive shield tanks, fitting neuts to a dominix is always a gamble as you may end with a system capable of achieving next to nothing in a fight and have sacrificed a lot of potential dps for the privelege. Nos was overpowered previously, now it benefits smaller ships more than larger ships because of the long cycles involved. This seems like a reasonably balanced system, something of a rarity in any game, and we should leave well alone.
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Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2009.06.26 14:43:00 -
[13]
Buffertank is king and has been for the last year or so. Caldari excel at this so there's no need to boost nos for shieldtanks. If anything, active armortanking needs a serious boost to be useful in pvp again. |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:04:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Durzel on 26/06/2009 15:09:25
Originally by: Nikuno Given the huge prevalence of buffered armour tanks and passive shield tanks, fitting neuts to a dominix is always a gamble as you may end with a system capable of achieving next to nothing in a fight and have sacrificed a lot of potential dps for the privelege. Nos was overpowered previously, now it benefits smaller ships more than larger ships because of the long cycles involved. This seems like a reasonably balanced system, something of a rarity in any game, and we should leave well alone.
With the exception of the monster passive tankers like the Drake even regular ships that buffer tank need cap for something whether it be just keeping their hardeners on, or using their weapons/ewar, etc.
Even if you went with an all-neuting Domi you've still got up to 50% bonus drone damage (same as Curse/Pilgrim) with none of the drawbacks, in fact in comparison to both the Dominix tanks better, has more cap (with which to neut longer), etc. Obviously that's to be expected somewhat as I'm comparing BS to Cruisers - but why is it the two ships that are actually designed for cap warfare aren't really leagues ahead of any other ship you can think of which is able to fit a neut?
Lest we forget a Curse pilot with Recon 5 using med neuts is still only neuting just over 50% (360 vs 600) of what a single unbonused T2 Heavy Neut is doing. A T2 Heavy Neut is still neuting 300 cap every 12 seconds, whilst a Curse/Pilgrim with Recon 5 is neuting 360 over the same time period.
As mentioned before - as things stand ECM on unbonused ships is unreliable (as it should be), it works but you can't rely on it. ECM on a Falcon, a ship designed for ECM, is and has always been very powerful. When was the last time you were permajammed by anything that wasn't designed for that role? Now, when was the last time you were capped out in no time at all despite there being no Curse, Pilgrim, Bhaalgorn on the battlefield?
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Hagir Bethul
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Posted - 2009.06.26 15:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Durzel
Even if you went with an all-neuting Domi you've still got up to 50% bonus drone damage (same as Curse/Pilgrim) with none of the drawbacks, in fact in comparison to both the Dominix tanks better, has more cap (with which to neut longer), etc. Obviously that's to be expected somewhat as I'm comparing BS to Cruisers - but why is it the two ships that are actually designed for cap warfare aren't really leagues ahead of any other ship you can think of which is able to fit a neut?
Curse and Pilgrim get a 40% range bonus for the neuts, so they can easily stay out of the range of the Domi's neuts. Seems fine to me.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.26 16:10:00 -
[16]
Pilgrim doesn't.
Any decent Curse pilot should be able to deaggress when faced with a more potent neuting ship (even if that concept is imo ridiculous, do Falcons flee from ships that jam better?), but noone was talking about Curse survivability rather how easy it is to be almost as effective as a Curse (T2 Heavy Neut range is 25.2km, officer heavy neut range is even longer) in any ship you fancy flying.
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Atrei Capital
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Posted - 2009.06.27 07:45:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Atrei Capital on 27/06/2009 07:46:16 It's a sad, sad thing that no good mechanic can last because people insist upon overdoing it. |
Komi Toran
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Posted - 2009.06.28 06:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Durzel Pilgrim doesn't.
Any decent Curse pilot should be able to deaggress when faced with a more potent neuting ship (even if that concept is imo ridiculous, do Falcons flee from ships that jam better?), but noone was talking about Curse survivability rather how easy it is to be almost as effective as a Curse (T2 Heavy Neut range is 25.2km, officer heavy neut range is even longer) in any ship you fancy flying.
Hmm... 25.2km range is almost as effective as 76km range... this new math they're teaching is interesting :P (Yes, I know it has a significant trade off with amount neuted, cycle times, and fittings, but still... 76km range!) |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.06.28 06:54:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Durzel on 28/06/2009 06:54:11 Come on, you're seriously using a 4xRCU, ancilliary control rigs and absolutely zero tank single heavy neut fitting Curse as a valid example? Also good luck capping something out with a 24 second cycle time.
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Komi Toran
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Posted - 2009.06.28 07:18:00 -
[20]
While your assumptions about my fit are quaint, you should at least be aware of overheating.
And yes, I will use it as an example, as it is an effective small-gang pvp boat. |
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Nikuno
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Posted - 2009.06.29 13:12:00 -
[21]
Well, since I switched from flying megathtrons to flying abaddons, capping out is an almost daily occurrence, without any specific neuting ships on the field, in fact without and neuts whatsoever. That doesn't stop me using them as the pulse laser advantage outweighs the blaster performance nowadays. I adapted. Similarly I used to fly a lot of Lachesis, but damps are worthless these days so I gave that up for other ships and combat styles too.
Now, if I fly an enyo against a neut domi, I can survive pretty well against his drones, and the single small nos to my ship fitted gives me enough gasps of cap to run what needs to be run to stay alive between even the staggered drains from the neuts. I really don't see an issue here. His neuts would be crippling against my DPS in my abaddon but my tank would last a hell of a long time against just his drones as my EHP is enormous and this would give me time to try to get some help along, or de-aggro and jump gate.
I don't see what it is you think the domi gains and the curse loses given that you're talking about a difference between BS and cruiser sized mods, nor do I see how a neut domi is such a problem currently.
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