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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.01.05 15:35:00 -
[1231]
Originally by: Varo Jan
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Varo Jan
Two trustees appear to have left the game. Will that prevent you from liquidating?
The absence of trustees has no effect on liquidation provided I am still around.
IŠm confused. I thought trustees were put in place to mitigate against the risk of you scarpering?
Yes, they can make it hard for me to scarper with the BPOs by voting against an unlock but if they don't do that I can unlock and liquidate. This may be a concern from the security point of view, but it isn't a concern from the liquidation point of view.
Originally by: Varo Jan The current benchmark for an ultra-safe investment is BMBE bonds, paying 3% monthly. This project has risks, all of which you have outlined previously, so the return ought to be higher - and IŠd suggest 100 basis points is very reasonable. In other words, if you have not and do not expect to make at least 4% monthly, you should liquidate.
The comparitive risks of investing in BMBE in comparison to this are debatable.
TornSoul has a good reputation and a good record of past performance, as do I. I believe that BMBE's loans are secured, but the only solid security for a loan is a locked down BPO and Titans For You has that too. The underlying assets are similar and secured in similar ways.
The comparison of TornSoul's offering to this one is also a matter of apples and oranges.
TornSoul's offering was marketed as a 3% fixed-rate Bond whereas this was marketed as a profit sharing IPO. He provides guarentees of a return, mine offers the potential for more at the risk of less. If I was going to offer a minimum % return at any point, then I would have just launched it as a low interest Bond in the first place.
Using TornSoul's offering as the benchmark for the "failure point" of an IPO simply does not make sense. Such a benchmark would have to be taken from the advertised terms of equivalent IPOs or from the actual performance of IPOs that failed to return and liquidated in response. I think you'll find the average yield of such things is much lower than 3% and the idea of posing a 4% failure point is lunacy.
Furthermore, when you consider that this IPO is still in it's "winding up" phase then the idea of it underperforming isn't so unusual. I've seen plenty of IPOs start slowly and only where an actual minimum return was advertised have I, or would I, insist on closure in response.
I have 20 billion invested in this IPO and I have as much reason to complain as the next man. I understand your concerns, but I think your expectations are unreasonable.
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Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2010.01.05 15:54:00 -
[1232]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Varo Jan The current benchmark for an ultra-safe investment is BMBE bonds, paying 3% monthly. This project has risks, all of which you have outlined previously, so the return ought to be higher - and IŠd suggest 100 basis points is very reasonable. In other words, if you have not and do not expect to make at least 4% monthly, you should liquidate.
The comparitive risks of investing in BMBE in comparison to this are debatable. The comparison of TornSoul's offering to this one is also a matter of apples and oranges. Using TornSoul's offering as the benchmark for the "failure point" of an IPO simply does not make sense. Such a benchmark would have to be taken from the advertised terms of equivalent IPOs or from the actual performance of IPOs that failed to return and liquidated in response. I think you'll find the average yield of such things is much lower than 3% and the idea of posing a 4% failure point is lunacy. I understand your concerns, but I think your expectations are unreasonable.
Fair enough. You responded as expected, and I donŠt really disagree with you. So recommend a minimum return that you believe is fair and reasonable.
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.05 16:24:00 -
[1233]
If 2 directors have truly left the game this will have an effect on the security lockdown.
If BB (I don't think he will) institutes a vote to unlock BPO's at least 1 director has to vote no to nullify BB. If no directors vote then BB would unlock the BPO's. With 2 directors gone that is a 50% drop in security (2 out of 4).
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Dzil
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.01.05 16:33:00 -
[1234]
Originally by: Varo Jan
Fair enough. You responded as expected, and I donŠt really disagree with you. So recommend a minimum return that you believe is fair and reasonable.
Most T2 BPOs are valued at the amount of isk one could expect to make copying them for 2 years straight. That works out to about 4% monthly if you aren't compounding interest. I think this is where the magical 4% line is drawn for most stable investments.
This has a couple meanings: 1. We should expect a BPC to sell at the BPO price+ "interest" from ME research / number of copies made in 2 years. 2. For the purposes of evaluating liquidation, we should consider the BPO price to be the actual price we could reasonable get selling it, likely less than the NPC price.
In my opinion, I'd rather let this investment ride than prematurely liquidate. Instead, I think it would be better to allow trading of shares and supply/demand offer to those seeking early liquidation a way to move out of this offering. My hunch is the shares of this IPO will value higher than the firesale of an entire titan BPO, let alone 4 of them. IE you'll get more isk back selling your shares back to other people in MD than the cashout value of a complete liquidation.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
SetrakDark
Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance
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Posted - 2010.01.05 16:37:00 -
[1235]
Originally by: Dzil In my opinion...
wut dis gai sed ^
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.01.05 16:52:00 -
[1236]
Originally by: Dzil I think it would be better to allow trading of shares and supply/demand offer to those seeking early liquidation a way to move out of this offering. My hunch is the shares of this IPO will value higher than the firesale of an entire titan BPO, let alone 4 of them. IE you'll get more isk back selling your shares back to other people in MD than the cashout value of a complete liquidation.
I have no problem with the trading of shares and I've brokered several Titans For You share trades already. I agree that for those that wish to cash out now this is the best way for them to go.
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Dzil
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.01.05 16:57:00 -
[1237]
Originally by: cosmoray If 2 directors have truly left the game this will have an effect on the security lockdown.
If BB (I don't think he will) institutes a vote to unlock BPO's at least 1 director has to vote no to nullify BB. If no directors vote then BB would unlock the BPO's. With 2 directors gone that is a 50% drop in security (2 out of 4).
Being somewhat noobish on corps, BPO lockdowns and shareholder votes, what could be done to reinstate the previous level of security?
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.05 17:03:00 -
[1238]
Originally by: Dzil
Originally by: cosmoray If 2 directors have truly left the game this will have an effect on the security lockdown.
If BB (I don't think he will) institutes a vote to unlock BPO's at least 1 director has to vote no to nullify BB. If no directors vote then BB would unlock the BPO's. With 2 directors gone that is a 50% drop in security (2 out of 4).
Being somewhat noobish on corps, BPO lockdowns and shareholder votes, what could be done to reinstate the previous level of security?
Two new directors could be hired to replace the old ones.
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Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2010.01.05 17:21:00 -
[1239]
Originally by: Dzil In my opinion, I'd rather let this investment ride than prematurely liquidate.
Looks like I need to restate something. I am NOT suggesting liquidation. I am saying it makes sense to have an objective measure to determine WHEN liquidation should come into play.
"We will liquidate if the market dies," which is the current strategy, is totally ambiguous, subjective and open to every armchair Titan warrior educating us.
BB has the knowledge and the responsibility to recommend a more objective assessment - and to be measured against it.
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Dzil
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.01.05 17:31:00 -
[1240]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Dzil
Originally by: cosmoray If 2 directors have truly left the game this will have an effect on the security lockdown.
If BB (I don't think he will) institutes a vote to unlock BPO's at least 1 director has to vote no to nullify BB. If no directors vote then BB would unlock the BPO's. With 2 directors gone that is a 50% drop in security (2 out of 4).
Being somewhat noobish on corps, BPO lockdowns and shareholder votes, what could be done to reinstate the previous level of security?
Two new directors could be hired to replace the old ones.
I guess I don't quite understand the logistics of that though. My understanding was the original directors all took shares in some holding corp via alts. Since you cannot forcibly retract shares, how would you transfer the security role to another player? What happens if the former directors return to the game, or one turns out to be a bad cookie like Ricdic? I think if they start up a new holding corp, it would have to wait until a time when all blueprints were out of copy/research.
Is there some easy way to replace trustees that I've missed?
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.05 17:46:00 -
[1241]
The mechanics of voting are quite simple.
Lets say that there is Bad Bobby and director A,B,C and D to make 5. They each own 20% of the shares in the lockdown corp.
BB creates a vote to unlock BPO's. BB votes yes (20% for unlock) no one else votes (0% against)
The vote will then carry and BB can unlock the BPO's. In an ideal world it would take 3 yes votes to unlock BPO's, but if 2 are absent/gone it now takes 2, or if no one is around to check only 1 as no one will vote.
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2010.01.05 17:48:00 -
[1242]
Originally by: Dzil
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Dzil
Originally by: cosmoray If 2 directors have truly left the game this will have an effect on the security lockdown.
If BB (I don't think he will) institutes a vote to unlock BPO's at least 1 director has to vote no to nullify BB. If no directors vote then BB would unlock the BPO's. With 2 directors gone that is a 50% drop in security (2 out of 4).
Being somewhat noobish on corps, BPO lockdowns and shareholder votes, what could be done to reinstate the previous level of security?
Two new directors could be hired to replace the old ones.
I think if they start up a new holding corp, it would have to wait until a time when all blueprints were out of copy/research.
Is there some easy way to replace trustees that I've missed?
I didn't say it was simple, easy, or timely.
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Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2010.01.05 19:02:00 -
[1243]
Originally by: Kalrand Two new directors could be hired to replace the old ones.
Not could be, should be - should have been.
Shar and Kazzac havenŠt been around in ages, and should be replaced. No reflection on them at all, it is what it is. Investors bought in under a risk profile that included 5 trustees.
IŠd also suggest that trustees are automatically replaced in future if they are absent for X months.
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Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.01.05 19:06:00 -
[1244]
Just posting to confirm I am still active and log in on a daily basis.
Oh and....
/finger for some of you :) Titan BPC Auction Thread |
Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.05 22:42:00 -
[1245]
Edited by: Breaker77 on 05/01/2010 22:42:09
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Breaker77 It's completely failed and I'm buying shares at 50% original price, convo me if interested in selling
I smell manipulation.
I'm not a bad person, honest
Originally by: cosmoray If 2 directors have truly left the game this will have an effect on the security lockdown.
Even more of a reason to sell to me!! I'm willing to take the risk
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.01.06 00:49:00 -
[1246]
Originally by: Breaker77
Even more of a reason to sell to me!! I'm willing to take the risk
Is 50% the going rate? Jesus! I'd also be willing to buy up to 200 shares at 55%. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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jwingenderowns
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Posted - 2010.01.06 02:06:00 -
[1247]
I can buy up about 200 shares at 60% face value if any is interested.
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.01.06 07:22:00 -
[1248]
Originally by: Varo Jan Shar and Kazzac havenŠt been around in ages, and should be replaced.
Shar is still around. I don't know about Kazzac though.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2010.01.06 07:45:00 -
[1249]
Shar have been seen online. And I am sure Kazzac is around ;) Also I trusted my investment with Bobby, the trustees are just fluff imo :p
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Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2010.01.06 13:44:00 -
[1250]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Varo Jan Shar and Kazzac havenŠt been around in ages, and should be replaced.
Shar is still around. I don't know about Kazzac though.
Excellent news, his contributions have been missed. Then he wonŠt mind posting here to confirm, will he?
Originally by: Ji Sama Shar have been seen online. And I am sure Kazzac is around ;) Also I trusted my investment with Bobby, the trustees are just fluff imo :p
Ji, fluff or not, thatŠs the format BB chose and committed to. He has a responsibility to maintain all the terms and conditions of his IPO.
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.01.07 07:11:00 -
[1251]
Originally by: Varo Jan Excellent news, his contributions have been missed. Then he wonŠt mind posting here to confirm, will he?
It's quite possible that his contributions are the reason why he hasn't been able to post for a while.
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.01.07 07:23:00 -
[1252]
On the assumption that Kazzac is MIA, I'm happy to install another trustee. Cosmo, are you available?
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.07 21:54:00 -
[1253]
I got 1 spare ALT spot left. I can do it if you want.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.07 21:59:00 -
[1254]
Originally by: cosmoray The mechanics of voting are quite simple.
Lets say that there is Bad Bobby and director A,B,C and D to make 5. They each own 20% of the shares in the lockdown corp.
BB creates a vote to unlock BPO's. BB votes yes (20% for unlock) no one else votes (0% against)
The vote will then carry and BB can unlock the BPO's. In an ideal world it would take 3 yes votes to unlock BPO's, but if 2 are absent/gone it now takes 2, or if no one is around to check only 1 as no one will vote.
If I may only slightly derail the thread because I've never been in that position, the shareholders are then obligated to log in once every 24 hours in order to see if they have mail about a corp vote, right?
FAKE EDIT: Easier now, since you can click on the char on the char selection screen to see if they have a mail without having to log in.
So this depends on the shareholders remembering and sticking to this every day, correct?
Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.07 22:08:00 -
[1255]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega If I may only slightly derail the thread because I've never been in that position, the shareholders are then obligated to log in once every 24 hours in order to see if they have mail about a corp vote, right?
FAKE EDIT: Easier now, since you can click on the char on the char selection screen to see if they have a mail without having to log in.
So this depends on the shareholders remembering and sticking to this every day, correct?
Yes. However I believe most of the shareholders transfered the shares to their mains so they didn't have to worry about it.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.01.07 22:14:00 -
[1256]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Dretzle Omega If I may only slightly derail the thread because I've never been in that position, the shareholders are then obligated to log in once every 24 hours in order to see if they have mail about a corp vote, right?
FAKE EDIT: Easier now, since you can click on the char on the char selection screen to see if they have a mail without having to log in.
So this depends on the shareholders remembering and sticking to this every day, correct?
Yes. However I believe most of the shareholders transfered the shares to their mains so they didn't have to worry about it.
Ah, didn't even think of that. How silly of me.
Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
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Emmgel
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Posted - 2010.01.08 08:30:00 -
[1257]
Subject to the various share trades altering the original numbers, it seems I'm the largest co-shareholder (equal with BB).
On that basis, if you wanted to restore two directors to replace those who are no longer as active, I note BB's invitation to Cosmoray and would add that I have a spare alt - if needed - for the remaining position.
Emmgel
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.01.08 08:53:00 -
[1258]
Quote:
Being somewhat noobish on corps, BPO lockdowns and shareholder votes, what could be done to reinstate the previous level of security?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two new directors could be hired to replace the old ones.
If BB wants, I can join in with an alt and help at the task.
I did not even invest in this, so I could be considered pretty much neutral to the whole affair.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.01.08 09:57:00 -
[1259]
Originally by: cosmoray I got 1 spare ALT spot left. I can do it if you want.
The approach I suggest is to create an alt on a trial account, add that to the sekrit titan copying corp and then let the trial lapse. This way it does not use up one of your subscribed account slots. Should there be a need for you to sub that trial account in order to liquidate T4U then the costs would be covered as part of the liquidation.
The shares that you use to monitor unlock votes are a seperate issue and ideally should be held by a character that you log on to regularly.
Provision was made for 1% of profits to be paid to each Trustee in order to compensate them for their involvement. Some Trustees have waived this right, but the choice is yours.
Originally by: Emmgel I have a spare alt - if needed - for the remaining position.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I can join in with an alt and help at the task.
Thanks for the offers, we are only seeking to add one additional Trustee on the basis that Kazzac is MIA.
I've seen Shar in-game so I believe him to still be active, however I do not know if he currently has forum access. I will try to make contact with him and if I have no luck we can then make moves to replace him.
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.08 15:45:00 -
[1260]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: cosmoray I got 1 spare ALT spot left. I can do it if you want.
The approach I suggest is to create an alt on a trial account, add that to the sekrit titan copying corp and then let the trial lapse. This way it does not use up one of your subscribed account slots. Should there be a need for you to sub that trial account in order to liquidate T4U then the costs would be covered as part of the liquidation.
The shares that you use to monitor unlock votes are a seperate issue and ideally should be held by a character that you log on to regularly.
Provision was made for 1% of profits to be paid to each Trustee in order to compensate them for their involvement. Some Trustees have waived this right, but the choice is yours.
Originally by: Emmgel I have a spare alt - if needed - for the remaining position.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I can join in with an alt and help at the task.
Thanks for the offers, we are only seeking to add one additional Trustee on the basis that Kazzac is MIA.
I've seen Shar in-game so I believe him to still be active, however I do not know if he currently has forum access. I will try to make contact with him and if I have no luck we can then make moves to replace him.
I can set up a trial account, and hand shares to cosmoray who is on everyday. Be completed in next 2 days.
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