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Ouro Akala	Posted - 2009.07.01 13:30:00 - [61] - Quote Guys, I think you're more or less overinterpreting the story and making the Gallente look like they've turned into a police state. None of this can be the case as: a) the teacher could've just been held in for a day for questioning, nothing more, we don't know what happenned to him after the story ends. b) a secret police can be accepted by a liberal society, especially in a technologically advanced age, where PR science is probably ages ahead of us, when it's advertised as targetted at those who want to take away your freedoms. We must remember that the Gallente are described as a people who are ready to take up arms when someone wants to threaten their way of life. Convince them that the Black Eagles are aimed at exactly those people, and you'll have groups actively seeking people who don't support the liberalism and the freedom and branding them as enemies because they're not "true" liberals and "probably want to impose on us some sort of Caldari labor camp thing". Gallente are passionate about their freedom, and are probably bound to get as fanatical about it as Amarrians about their god. Under these circumstances, the establishing of a thought police sounds really possible to me.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.07.01 13:50:00 - [62] - Quote Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness stuff Interesting parallel you draw there, but the position is not that it could never happen, the position is that is could never happen in the way it is described. The picture you paint of the US situation after 9/11 is interesting, but is not entirely correct. I'm not a US citizen, so I have no interest in whitewashing the past. But even as an outside observer I do remember quite a vocal opposition on some of the things that happened during the Bush administration. Yes there was a knee-jerk reaction in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, but the patriot act, the invasion of Iraq, Guantanamo bay, the non-judicial kidnapping of 'foreign combatants', Abu Graib, etc. all were opposed by at least some Americans. We can discuss if this was done to a large enough extend, but this is not the place for that. And yet, in EVE we have to believe that a society much liberal then the US ever was, would just give away all civil liberties without protest, within a fortnight? The same with the GDR. It was handed an oppressive regime after WW2 by the Russians (and the **s before that), which it cultivated over decades. Nothing remotely like the apparent transformation/revolution as described to have gone on in the Gallente Federation. Same with **-Germany and the SS. It took a decade for Adolf to get to power and that ascension was fraught with often violent protests. The SS barely had any influence before the night of the long knifes and took years to grow into the state-in-state situation it eventually attained. None of these examples just sprung into being, none of these examples had an unchallenged ascension to power. And yet this is what we have to believe happened in the Gallente Society? There are some serious flaws in the scenario we're presented with here. So serious in fact that it makes the whole storyline irrational. The role of Mentas Blaque is a key. This is the champion of the Hawks and most of the Vultures (at this time). His powerbase is mostly secure, and given the circumstances and events in the ascendancy. This is a powerful man within the Gallente political system, with ideas diametrically opposed to those of Foiritan. And yet, we have to believe that all of a sudden he not only buries the hatchet, but willfully places his political future into the hands of the man he fought politically all his life? To take up the post of what is described as basically middle-management in a position that within Gallente society means the effective end of his long political carrier? Why would he ever do that? He basically has it in his grasp to take the top job for himself, burying is life-long opponent while he's at it. Why would he ever suicide his political carrier in such a way? Reference has been made that all that has been described is in some way good for Gallente RP? I believe that nothing can be further from the truth. The idea that the Gallente Federation was somehow the goody-two-shoes among the empires is non-sense. That maybe the Gallente propaganda picture, but reality has already been described as different. All empires have something going for them RP wise. The Amarr have their religion, slavery, and emperor/empress. The Matari have their liberation, tribalism, and duct-tape. The Caldari have their all-powerful corporations, state oppression and militarism. The Gallente had politics, corruption, depravity, Senate-President power-struggles, and failure of a multi-racial society. By turning the Gallente Federation into a police state you make them into a French clone of the Caldari. Heth with his provists and Foiritan with his Black Eagles, what's the bloody difference! There is a lot of underhandedness to explore in Gallente Society, a second Caldari State with a French accent is just boring. There is more to RP than just creating more deus-ex-machine and bland oppression of the masses. We already have that in the Caldari State. Enough already ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
WaRMaChinE99	Posted - 2009.07.01 14:01:00 - [63] - Quote I normally don't post here, but I do believe the reason why this debate about this chronicle is getting heated is the misconception of wording used by Barth and Pott. I noticed the words Unrealistic and Unbelievable used quite often. While others may believe your use of words are more aligned to "Impossible." They might be trying to convince you that this could be "Probable" given in a short chronicle story. I heard both sides of the arguement, and both sides all have valid points. Barth your right that the fact the Gallenteans had a rapid change from freedom-lovers to totalitarianism. But understand this is a short chronicle not an 500 page novel. If you were to tell me to write about 1000 years of chinese history in 2-3 pages. I would probably be able to only scratch about 5 percent of those years, given I were to tell about the most important parts. One thing I don't agree with you is your wording of "Totalitarianism." One of the definitions is absolute control by the state or a governing branch of a highly centralized institution. While currently the Gallentean government may be using misinformation, influence(popularity and patriotism), fear and heightened security to manipulate opinions of the masses. It is not in absolute control of the masses nor does it strives to regulate nearly every aspect of public and private life. As for elder professor that "didn't come to class the next morning," we honestly were not told if he was taken by the Black Eagles. Some of us (Kuranta, Nullshadow, and etc...) just assumed so based on the text of "new institutions Mentas Blaque had set up." It could have been Black Eagles or another institution. We don't know what type of punishment/reprimand the professor got. Only speculations. All we know for certain is he didn't show up for class next morning. The fact we are also talking about the creditability of the time-tested professor versus a young student. Understand while in democracy, we are innocent before proven guilty. Our human psyche does not always see it this way. If I was a female student and I told the faculty and my parents, that my professor touched my naughty bits. They would assume guilt before innocence partially based on influence from the media of misconduct from other professors around the state/nation. On the off-chance the professor was taken for "reeducation" or punishment is "too deus ex machina and unrealistic," and does not exist in reality. You have to understand that improbable things have happened in real life that have tragic consequences. Like Barth said before, most government intelligence agencies have lie detectors. Why didn't they use it here? While most intel agencies have them. I believe their procedure is to use them when a person is being uncooperative or likely to be lying. Most interrogators use human response, psychology, and questioning(verified by in-field evidence) to find out if a person is lying or not. Improbable things have happened in real life, that should not have happened in a democracy, but it did. Maher Arar is a telecommunications engineer with dual Syrian and Canadian citizenship who resides in Canada. He was detained by US officals at JFK while going home to Canada from a family vacation in Tunis. RCMP said he was a person of interest even though there was a lack of evidence. Extraordinary rendition policy basically forced him to face torture for 2 years in a Syrian prison. He was not given a lie detector test nor did Canada give any evidence to US for ties to terrorism. All word by mouth. Petitions was sent to find out what happen to him by his family. Majority of Canadians didn't know what happened until after he came back. The evidence against him at his trial was considered classified and part of national security. The prosecutors wanted to convict him without giving up any evidence and this all happen in democratic Canada.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.07.01 14:43:00 - [64] - Quote Originally by: Ouro Akala Retcon proposal Ouro Akala, you're basically describing a retcon so that the chronicle makes sense. Fine, that's good, at least it's constructive. But that still makes you're retconned society suspiciously (in my eyes) similar to the Caldari. A fiercely society but with a strong and all-powerful thought-police? Occam's raiser really. Why would it be necessary to have the deus-ex-machina in the first place? But OK, let's be constructive and see if we can return the storyline back to something more Gallente (whatever that is): Clearly (and for a long time now, but whatever), the time for emergency measures and basic politics is over. It's done it's job, not back to the regular programme. It starts with protest, because everything in the Federation starts with protests. It originates, from the Senate, at first from the shadows. They have been left out of the decision-making processes, and are ****ed off about it. They want in, and won't take no for an answer. The original protests are aimed at the Black Eagles and the loss of personal liberty. But that's just the popular thing (Ostriches are riotous because the whole thing now affects them and their business making capability). The Senate's objective is to take down Foiritan, because he's been a threat against the Senate's interests all along. Mentas Blaque has the Hawks and Vultures behind him, but he wants to get rid of Foiritan as well. He can't possibly be the next president because he signed too many gag-orders. So there is a big power-struggle with Foiritan losing out in the end. Sorry, but he has to go. He capitulated to the Caldari, is an appeaser, has enemies in the Senate, and what-ever he tries, he can't play the popular vote card any longer when he's also oppressing them. The Magpies turned against him. The Black Eagles have to go, or lose a lot of power in the process, and will become a pawn in the power-struggle ahead. So, eventually, after lots of cloak and dagger politicking, the Senate comes up with a solution. A triumvirate (nice link to republican Rome and all the stuff that went on then) with Mentas Blake (can't ignore him because of his power, for the military, Hawks and Vultures, Gallente), and two senators (a business man Dove Intaki keeping it together, and a populist hardliner Magpie/Ostriche, maybe a Jin-Mei or Mannar, not enough is written about these two races). The intention is to make this a caretaker government for the duration of the war or until the next presidential elections (in some years time) but obviously the players have different plans. The Federation Judicial arm is obviously opposed, but eventually relinquishes under political pressure from the major players. Obviously lots of jockying for position by all members of the triumvirate either to maintain popular support, or to position themselves for the next election, or to increase the power of the Senate over the triumvirate/president elect. We can still have Foiritan menacingly in the background, plotting and scheming to come back to power, or become a powerbroker in the shadows. Remember, he still has some powerful contacts all over the Federation. There is lots of scope for RP here. And with the voters and focuss groups in the middle, such a scenario would be uniquely Gallente. Nothing like this (doing politics in the middle of a war?) would be able to happen in any of the other Empires. And with care, it would also remove the need for deus-ex-machine plot-devices and even get rid of them. The focus would be on the people and their machinations within the whole structure of society. Deceit, vanity, back-stabbing, character development, all readily available within the story-line. Ofcourse, it will probably never come to pass. Still, it might be something to explore ... at least it's interesting (well to me) and typically Gallente (well, at least I think so) ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Avel Kereka Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.07.01 15:04:00 - [65] - Quote Edited by: Avel Kereka on 01/07/2009 15:07:13 Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Reference has been made that all that has been described is in some way good for Gallente RP? I believe that nothing can be further from the truth. The idea that the Gallente Federation was somehow the goody-two-shoes among the empires is non-sense. That maybe the Gallente propaganda picture, but reality has already been described as different. All empires have something going for them RP wise. The Amarr have their religion, slavery, and emperor/empress. The Matari have their liberation, tribalism, and duct-tape. The Caldari have their all-powerful corporations, state oppression and militarism. The Gallente had politics, corruption, depravity, Senate-President power-struggles, and failure of a multi-racial society. By turning the Gallente Federation into a police state you make them into a French clone of the Caldari. Heth with his provists and Foiritan with his Black Eagles, what's the bloody difference! There is a lot of underhandedness to explore in Gallente Society, a second Caldari State with a French accent is just boring. There is more to RP than just creating more deus-ex-machine and bland oppression of the masses. We already have that in the Caldari State. Enough already ... (Emphasis mine) sadly, we haven't ever, ever seen this. The Gallente had virtually no bad sides except for the bombing of Caldari Prime up until the Black Eagles were established. We never saw any particular depravity (the torture chronicle made no sense, unless we're supposed to believe the government condones torture for the sake of it without trial which goes against what they were pre-Eagles) or any democratic short-comings or racial tensions. Nothing, nada, just news story after news story extolling the virtues of democracy and a vibrant economy. ------
Ouro Akala	Posted - 2009.07.01 15:26:00 - [66] - Quote Edited by: Ouro Akala on 01/07/2009 15:28:48 Maybe it was a mistake on my part to use the words "thought police", as it implies too many connotations which I didn't really want to associate with the idea I tried to put forward. I don't really view the Black Eagles as a thought police in the strict meaning of the word, it's more like a paranoid security agency with too much freedom of action on its part, and little government supervision on top of it. It might eventually evolve into a thought police of course, but that's material for another discussion altogether. I also didn't realise that my thoughts would be taken as a proposition of a retcon, but then again I didn't read the novel so my perspective of things isn't that broad. Excuse me for my ignorance then :) I just tried to describe a general way in which such an institution might gain acceptance in the public eye of a society that prides itself in its liberal principles. My approach was also less focused on the institutions that form the Gallentean government and the politicians, but the general public to which they're supposed to answer. I developed it mainly using the Gallente racial description which states that when under outside pressure to their way of life (and I'm sure certain political bodies in the Federation might want to demonise the Caldari as enemies of the Gallentean ideals of how a state should look like), a part of the more ideologically motivated population would most certainly sound the call to arms against them. With the onset of the growing paranoia in the face of the war, heated up by sensationalist media, this group would grow more and more vocal, with the more peacefuly oriented groups silenced by a sort of new "war time political correctness". These hardliners could then brand the groups that disagree with them as not being fully supportive of their state in a time of need, and use this rhetoric to support the Black Eagles in an "who's not with us is against us" fashion. So, you see, I don't necessarily view what I said as a retcon, though I might be wrong of course as I'm no expert on lore, it's just what I think happenned in the background, that which is not covered by the news feeds, chronicles and source material in general, as they tend to focus on specific characters, situations and other "symbols" that people can associate the story with. Nevertheless your ideas seem interesting. I get the impression you could write a political thriller in your spare time.
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2009.07.01 15:38:00 - [67] - Quote Edited by: Alexeph Stoekai on 01/07/2009 15:41:10 Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 30/06/2009 12:26:35 thorse**v Seems very out of place in Eve. I didnFt think traditional livestock or animals existed in Eve. Someone in eve saying horse** has a big impact on lore as it means humans are not the only thing to survive since earth. Are we now saying horses survived the Eve gate collapse? ItFs almost like someone in Eve talking about an Iphone or Xbox. Unless your implying Earth wild life is now around Eve and common enough for people to use it as a swear word. Perhaps horse should be replaced with Slaver or Fedogas or some other known animal in Eve . Unless of course you meant to imply Earth animals are around Eve. Oh, lord. Pottsey has once again found something completely inane to whine about. I suggest you read the chronicle again. Go on, just do it. I'll be here when you get back. Okay. Done? Well, this time you might have noticed that none of the characters spoke future-french! Shocking! They did, if I'm not mistaken, speak English! Surely the English language must be long dead at the point that chron takes place, so why don't you whine about it? Might it be because, had the characters been speaking future-french, you had not been able to understand anything? Perhaps it's a translation! Perhaps "horse**" is translated from a future-french word! One that has nothing at all to do with animal excrement, but has a similar meaning (a synonym, if you will) and roughly equal in terms of vulgarity! Amazing! If we want to argue about animals and names, I can say that I distinctly recall a blue-bar post in the Library section that specifically explained that any and all real-world animal names in EVE are in fact translations for our service. There are no ravens on Caldari Prime (and even if there were, they wouldn't be called "ravens"), but there might exist a creature which' name evokes the same images and emotions in the Caldari people as it does in us - thus the english word "Raven" was chosen to represent it. I haven't been able to find said dev-post, but knowing myself I'll probably spend the rest of the day trying to find it. Don't flatter yourself though, it's because I've had a need to refer to it numerous times before and it's starting to get on my nerves. -----
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.07.01 15:41:00 - [68] - Quote Originally by: WaRMaChinE99 Some good points You make some good points there, but my position on this in not limited to just his chronicle alone. It's about the storyline unfolding from the start of the Caldari-Gallente war right upto and inclusive off this chronicle. I find it highly unlikely that that storyline could have unfolding in the way that it did, given the description of the Gallente Federation. Mentas Blaque taking up a sub-ordinate position under Foiritan, who's ideas are diametrically opposed to his? Unlikely, when he could also have waited until Foiritan would have been toppled from the fall-out of his appeasement capitulation to Heth. The creation of an oppressive organ of the Federation overnight without any opposition? Unlikely, when Gallente Society is described as fiercely defensive about it's personal liberties. The rewriting of history and the implied disappearance of someone challenging this with the tacit approval and active participation of young and well-educated students? Unlikely, given the circumstances in Gallente civilisation. It is true that strange things happen in society. But they are usually isolated incidents. The succession of chronicles about the Gallente must be interpreted however as not just strange and isolated things happening in society. They are meant to describe the Gallente Federation as a whole, each providing a unique but telling viewpoint of it. Otherwise what would be their purpose? It is disingenuous to describe strange isolated incidents without giving access to the background in which they occurred. Specifically because the chronicles can not hope to describe the New Eden as a whole is why they must be salient examples of what it is. It is true that we don't know what happened to the teacher. But the implication is clear, he was made to disappear for stepping out of line. In the Caldari State I would believe that in an instance, in Gallente Society as described I do not. I feel that such an action would be perceived as crude and heavy-handed. The omnipresent and always eager press would be on such an unsophisticated measure like flies on ****. All to get the scoop and to sell more newspapers, even if only locally. But what rankles most is that apparently this type of behaviour is described as acceptable and encouraged in the context of Gallente society. Plot devices like deus-ex-machina-like authoritarian institutions always make for poor writing, but asking me to believe that within the timespan of just a couple of months, the Gallente society has transformed itself, without protest or resistance, from a society hell-bend on personal liberty to one where involuntary detention and the silencing of freedom of speech is not only accepted by encouraged, means asking me to ignore all the written context of what has come before. Events and occurrences do change systems, but the underlying machinations and traditions take much longer to change, and founding principles often never change at all. Chronicles are limited in the things that you can express in them because of length and subject matter, but that doesn't mean that the context in which you write them can be ignored all together. It is context and suspension of disbelieve that makes for a good chronicle. Here, as with previously mentioned chronicles, and especially the book, there is a clear break with context, and not suspension, but only disbelieve that remains. However well I like the character descriptions in it, I can't identify the context described with the Gallente Federation promulgated earlier. I grant you that some of the arguments may be able to explain away some of the inconsistencies, but as a whole I find the narrative rather unconvincing. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Kuranta Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.07.01 15:42:00 - [69] - Quote Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Nice straw-man you build there, good job on demolishing it too. You're really pulling out any and all debating fallacies there are. The point I, and I believe Pottsey too, are trying to make is that the slide from extreme liberalism to extreme totalitarianism could not have happened in Gallentean society in the way it is described. Not only not in the limit timespan described, but also not without public outcry and resistance. Given the description that we have of the Gallente and their society arguing that it can defies believe. Arguing that it can because you say so, because you are always right, is another fallacy, but I leave it to you to figure that one out. Great trolling though ... Nah, didn't ruin anything (DidnFt plan on building up anything, either). Of course my argument is not a plain: I'm right and you're wrong. It's sometimes just more effective to get a clear standpoint that way than nitpicking on several pages. OK, imho we can discard the timespan thing - just not feasible to let those changes happen in the time it would take in RL. So you say that there would have been an outcry in the gallentean society no matter what. As I said before, given the right circumstances (beeing at war, beeing (partly) invaded, the opponent having a nationalist leader) people tend to care less about their own freedom (if it is "for the greater good") and even less for the freedom of others. Human nature. People in a democracy and a nation build on freedom won't even think their leaders might do something against those spirits and question any moves far less. And if someone speaks up and claims to be treated unfair, the first thought of people is: sure he complains { he got cought. If then the public media plays along...well...it just didnFt happen. There might be tunderground informatioinv { but that doesnFt count for the vast majority of people. The stated fact that the teacher did not return does not necessarily mean he got killed (unlikely) or suspended for beeing traitor or having a "pro caldari" attitude officially. It could have been any reason. Let's say..sexual harrasement. Easy to fake and NOBODY would question that he had been suspended. Get away from those descriptions of political factions in the gallentean federation. Did you ever think of the possibility that those groups can not (due to fake media) or simply do not want to see what is happening and portest (for the elected government can not fail/do wrong things)? Pytria Le'Danness mentioned the development in America after 9/11. Or how about **** germany in WWII in which a whole society, within 8 years, came from blaming the jews for economical problems without any reson to the tEndlwsungv (Final Solution) and trying to extinguish a whole ethnic group. Nobody in germany openly questioned it. Those brave enough to do vanished. These are just examples of our history which hopefully will never return. ItFs not that hard to deceive people. Most people are selfish. As long as they maintain their own status they will not care about anyone else. And most people are lemmings they will follow whatever is fancy if they get to be left alone and unmolested. So...leaving out the question of how long it takes to corrupt a society, you simply MUST agree that NO society is safe of such manipulation without an outcry. It may take some years. Or even a generation (with altered history books). But it is entierly possible to slowly alter the mindset of a society to whatever those in power see fit. The people will just not see it { or ignore it because it is for tthe good causev or because they just donFt care. If you still say: tIt canFt happen to the Gallenteansv { I can clearly not have a discussion with you two any more. We will have to agree on disagreeing, then.
Ouro Akala	Posted - 2009.07.01 16:02:00 - [70] - Quote There is also one more thing I'd like to highlight: The institution that targetted the teacher was called in primarily not because the teacher wasn't supporting the government's view on some things, it was because an arrogant student who didn't like him and viewed him as if he had a "better than you" attitude towards him wanted to get revenge on him. So all in all it's not just a story about how the Black Eagles are bad and how dissenters are being silenced, but how the institution itself can be exploited and used in private conflicts. Now that I think of it, it's more about how the Gallente can backstab each other for petty reasons just like everyone else, rather than about the Black Eagles themselves.

Avel Kereka Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.07.01 16:05:00 - [71] - Quote To the anti-chronicle people--the other factions have been screwed over badly and the fluff took a nosedive with Empyrean Age. Everyone gets that, what we're gunning for now is a bit of balance and getting EVE to a point where everyone is a bad guy instead of the Evil Amarr/Caldari vs Good Gallente/Minmatar dichotomy TonyG seems hellbent on. It's not going to be perfect but this is a damn sight better than what we've been getting lately. ------
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2009.07.01 16:06:00 - [72] - Quote Edited by: Pottsey on 01/07/2009 16:08:01 Alexeph Stoekai said "Perhaps it's a translation! Perhaps "horse****" is translated from a future-french word! One that has nothing at all to do with animal excrement, but has a similar meaning (a synonym, if you will) and roughly equal in terms of vulgarity! Amazing!" Using that excurse is just a cover for very poor writing. You either make up a word like Battlestar Galactica did and use that as a swear word or you replace horse with a known animal in Eve like Fedo Granted the horse thing is minor but the other stuff is not. The devs have been messing up the story more and more and doing a terrible job of the ingame story. Just look at how poorly sleepers and wormholes story has handled. Or look at the last story line change thread (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=831062) where almost every post is unhappy people. Yet the devs just ignore it all. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.07.01 16:25:00 - [73] - Quote Originally by: Avel Kereka (Emphasis mine) sadly, we haven't ever, ever seen this. The Gallente had virtually no bad sides except for the bombing of Caldari Prime up until the Black Eagles were established. We never saw any particular depravity (the torture chronicle made no sense, unless we're supposed to believe the government condones torture for the sake of it without trial which goes against what they were pre-Eagles) or any democratic short-comings or racial tensions. Nothing, nada, just news story after news story extolling the virtues of democracy and a vibrant economy. Well, I agree to a large extend. Writing on the Gallente Federation has been distinctly flat for a long while now. The book is really the worst offender of them all. It almost seems like the Gallente are only mentioned as an unnamed opponent always available to cajole, humiliate, cheat and deceive on and always ready to capitulate whenever it fits in the story. The Gallente basically serve as a punching bag to give Heth at least a semblance of credibility. Clearly, I don't think it works. But the corruption, the politics, the depravity, the power-struggles, and multi-racial tensions I didn't get from nowhere. Politics and power-struggles, and their inevitable companion corruption have been described, at least to some extend, in the old chronicles. But apparently they have been dropped off the radar for a more easy to describe system where the president calls all the shots, and all the rest follows his lead unquestionably. I don't know why that is, but can not help but notice that the authors clearly feel much more at home working with the Caldari and Amarr, and their characteristics now seem to be shared among all Empires now. Multi-racial tensions however have been described most recently in the lead-up to the Caldari-Gallente conflict as well as the aftermath, against Matari imigrants and the other races in the Gallente Federation. Whatever happened to that I don't know, but I do miss the old tensions between the Gallente proper and the Intaki, Manarr, and maybe even the Jin-Mei minorities. Bless old Mentas Blaque for advocating rigid segregation and limited citizenship, at least it was something. Apparently the Intaki freedom fighters and the Syndicate Intakis have gone to sleep as well. The depravity is hard to pin-point, but reading between the lines it must be prevalent in Gallente society. Liberalism, prostitution, drug-use and manufacture, the dog-eats-dog business admosphere, how could there not be depravity. The torture series I find hard to place as well, especially the Gallente chronicle. It almost seems detached from everything else. But the criticism I let stand, with all the attention paid to the Caldari and Amarr factions, the Gallente seem to be described as some gullible rich uncle with a mental handicap, always ready to be mucked around with by over-dramatic flat-characters with a propensity to spout one-liners who apparently believe that more violence is the answer to anything. I ask you, where are the cunning man-of-the-world business men effortlessly sidestepping traps with a quip and nothing but a fancy dinner jacket to their name? You know, those rags-to-riches entrepreneurs who can slip through a maze of obstacles with unparalleled business-acumen and panache? Apparently the Gallente build a Federation oozing wealth from every pore with nothing but a bunch of whiny namsy-pansies to show for it. The world wonders ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Ouro Akala	Posted - 2009.07.01 16:35:00 - [74] - Quote I agree on the torture chronicle. It could've used a couple more sentences indicating who was torturing who, as the only thing I could make out of it was that the victim's body was supposed to be used in a scare tactic thing later (again, against whom?). Apart from that there was almost nothing in it I could use to mentally link it with the Gallente, apart from the greenish art it came with.
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2009.07.01 16:44:00 - [75] - Quote Originally by: Pottsey You either make up a word like Battlestar Galactica did and use that as a swear word or you replace horse with a known animal in Eve like Fedo No, that is bad writing. Originally by: Pottsey Or look at the last story line change thread (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=831062) where almost every post is unhappy people. Yet the devs just ignore it all. I think you linked the wrong thing there. -----
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.07.01 17:05:00 - [76] - Quote Originally by: Kuranta If you still say: tIt canFt happen to the Gallenteansv { I can clearly not have a discussion with you two any more. We will have to agree on disagreeing, then. We're not having a discussion. You're flip-flopping around, changing your argument, misrepresenting our position, moving the goal-posts, and bringing up bogus analogies without explaining how or why they would be applicable. And when that litany of fallacies does not impress anyone, you resort to circular logic, and state you are always right and therefore we must all be wrong. Congratulations, in the list of fallacies, you tick almost all the boxes. Excuse me if I'm not impressed. Why don't you start disbelieving your own hype argument for a second, and start reading what we actually say. Maybe then you can provide some credible input for a change. Just to clarify, the position exposed is not that it is impossible for such a situation to arise within the Gallente Federation but that it is highly unlikely to have arisen in the way described. It doesn't make sense, we don't believe it! From the context, none of the prerequisites for such a development are available, quite the contrary. Certain actions by key members of the narrative seem totally out of character. None of the processes you mention have even remotely been hinted at in the chronicles that we have. You are desperately trying to prove your point by retconning in an alternative history that is not only implausible but goes against, not only the context that we have, but basic common sense as well. Let me spell it out for you just to be clear: your narratological explanation reads like a two-dime children's book, the world does not work that way! Let me throw in an ad hominem for you, because you seem to understand what that is: your mummy was wrong. You are not special. You are not the smartest kid in the whole wide world. Your antics will not get you a cookie after dinner. Playtime is over. You are playing with the big kids now. You are wrong. OK? Enough trolling now, find someone else to play hopscotch with ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.07.01 17:19:00 - [77] - Quote Originally by: Ouro Akala Edited by: Ouro Akala on 01/07/2009 16:39:01 I agree on the torture chronicle. It could've used a couple more sentences indicating who was torturing who, as the only thing I could make out of it was that the victim's body was supposed to be used in a scare tactic thing later (again, against whom?). Apart from that there was almost nothing in it I could use to mentally link it with the Gallente, apart from the greenish art it came with. There was torture, but very little context to it. I agree (again!). The torture chronicle told me next to nothing about the Gallente. Basically, it could have been any criminal organisation in any of the empires who could have committed that, and it would still be viable. If it didn't explicitly state that this was the Gallente torture chronicle, I wouldn't have been able to tell. The other torture chronicles were a bit different in that respect, as some clearly referenced their faction. Also, I'm not really into horror. I know some people are, and that's fine with me, but it doesn't interest me a lot. What I find most boring about it all is this all-good, all-evil notion embodied so much in those types of stories. It negates a lot of the nuance that's so interesting in life. Fair is fair though, there have been plenty of chronicles where good men are forced to do evil things ... it's just put on rather think sometimes ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Morgana Tsukiyo Samsara Dynamics	Posted - 2009.07.01 18:23:00 - [78] - Quote Ok, the timeline could have been fast indeed, but one thing does not exclude the other. A chronicle show a small part of the reality, and this could be the kind of background to justify a major change in Gallentean society, perhaps even an Impeachment. So, not too much to one side nor the other. It is plausable to have a Gestapo on the loose, and that at the same time there are people protesting. What happened was just one perspective of the situation, lets wait every other monday to complete the scenario =)
narciasss	Posted - 2009.07.01 19:13:00 - [79] - Quote Isnt it obvious that the teacher was arrested, and imprisoned at a slave worker camp for his tyranny? I certainly know If he was caldari he may have been. Talking to a bunch of gallente students that have been pre-programmed to hate the caldari, especially at a time of war when no one can be trusted. Then again theres the need for people to explain the truth, when the truth has been tranformed in order to better brainwash their own citizens, who knows :) Good story tho BTW go gallente, but go caldari ships :P
WaRMaChinE99	Posted - 2009.07.01 20:28:00 - [80] - Quote Originally by: Avel Kereka To the anti-chronicle people--the other factions have been screwed over badly and the fluff took a nosedive with Empyrean Age. Everyone gets that, what we're gunning for now is a bit of balance and getting EVE to a point where everyone is a bad guy instead of the Evil Amarr/Caldari vs Good Gallente/Minmatar dichotomy TonyG seems hellbent on. It's not going to be perfect but this is a damn sight better than what we've been getting lately. Caldari, Evil? nah we are like the horde in WoW with big Tauren Shamens :P Gallente are like the human Alliance with their Paladins :D

lord khnrageX Amarr Rising Phoenix Ventures United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.07.01 20:47:00 - [81] - Quote I agree we arent evil we're just different. I liked the story but the ending not so much . If they have a simple lie detector in this futuristic world they would know the kid is lying. lord rageX
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.07.01 22:53:00 - [82] - Quote Can I just ad that the art on this one is the best one yet. ♥ ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told. ◕◡◕
Darth Skorpius Dark Side Cookies	Posted - 2009.07.01 23:15:00 - [83] - Quote awesome new chronicle, the last couple have been really interesting and kept me reading right through to the end, keep it up ______________________________________________
Aluin Chaput Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.02 03:52:00 - [84] - Quote Good Chronicle, but that kid needs a liberal dose of jail time. After the beating. Viva La Caldari.
Blackjack OMalley Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2009.07.02 06:19:00 - [85] - Quote A good chronicle. It reminded me greatly of the Chinese Cultural Revolution. One of the chief evils of that period in modern Chinese history was the deliberate turning of students against their teachers. In China's case, Mao exploited that all too human teenage rebellion against authority in order to rid himself of a pesky class of bureaucrats that had eclipsed his power over the state. Accounts of the period by its survivors are rife with anecdotes about teachers and fellow students being beaten, tortured, and even murdered or driven to suicide not for political or ideological reasons, but for simple personal revenge. Of course political and ideological excuses (i.e., not upholding Maoist thought) served as cover for the settling of these grudges... Give him back the knife, because the children of men have need of it
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.07.02 06:57:00 - [86] - Quote I can see on the news page that you are releasing a new book in November, Abraxes. I will properly buy it as I enjoy your work. I can not seem to find any official thread about this books release. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Katrina Bekers Gallente Hikage Corporation Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.07.02 13:10:00 - [87] - Quote Very nice chronicle. Sprinkled with holier-than-thou's here and there. All of them wrong in their stubborn fight to appear right. The heated walls-of-text of this thread show the quality of your work, Abraxas. The innuendos are always a nice touch. The last line says what he doesn't do next morning. But we know nothing about the one after the next. He might be just back in his seat, after some questioning. Or found lifeless in a sewer. Or just disappear from that day on. The author leaves us wondering and let us fill the gaps with our own views of how much the war changed the Gallente ways. My hat is off. --- Kat :: Recruitment :: Hikage Corporation :: Veritas Immortalis
Kuranta Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.07.02 16:26:00 - [88] - Quote Edited by: Kuranta on 02/07/2009 16:26:39 Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Just to clarify, the position exposed is not that it is impossible for such a situation to arise within the Gallente Federation but that it is highly unlikely to have arisen in the way described. It doesn't make sense, we don't believe it! It's nice that we finally agree on that. That's all i tried to explain. It is not unthinkable. Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane From the context, none of the prerequisites for such a development are available, quite the contrary. Certain actions by key members of the narrative seem totally out of character. None of the processes you mention have even remotely been hinted at in the chronicles that we have. So you actually only ramble because there are not more Chronicles hinting the subtle change in the gallentean society. So lets say CCP Abraxas would stop sleeping and churn out..dunno 30 chronicles with hints on how things changed in gallentean society and some more on how and why those key characters changed their mind on certain things just to please you. Or CCP would hire some more staff to do the same. You would then gasps STOP WHINING? Sure that could be done, but, you know, uh...the world doesn't work that way. The storyline in EVE needs to keep going. In what direction is up to CCP. If the storyline is to take a certain path, sometimes key characters will have to do things which might seem a bit odd because there is simply not enough time (or manpower) to write out all the character development leading to that action. Or all the little changes in the gallentean society. There sure is a limit to how much of a jump can be made, but untill Minmatarr do not start to enslave people, it's OK imho. You obviously have a lower limit to those inevitable jumps, but that's OK. Still you have to accept that CCP could not justify the expenses needed to cater to your level of demand of hints and information. Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Let me throw in an ad hominem for you, because you seem to understand what that is: your mummy was wrong. You are not special. You are not the smartest kid in the whole wide world. Your antics will not get you a cookie after dinner. Playtime is over. You are playing with the big kids now. You are wrong. OK? Sooo..I'm not the smartest kid? Damn. I sure hoped mum was right. You know what the best thing about all this is? No matter how much you whine, it won't change anything. But since you seem to have fun doing so, you sure won't mind.
Kuranta Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.07.02 16:33:00 - [89] - Quote Originally by: Katrina Bekers The author leaves us wondering and let us fill the gaps with our own views of how much the war changed the Gallente ways. My hat is off. Exactly. You should try this, Bartholomeus.

CCP Abraxas	Posted - 2009.07.02 17:23:00 - [90] - Quote I swear, I take my eyes off you kids for five minutes to write a novel and look what happens in the meantime...


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