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Ameti
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Posted - 2009.07.03 21:08:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ameti on 03/07/2009 21:09:31 I need your help to gather a few thoughts regarding this matter. The question is not part of a credit bearing course so I think it's perfectly all right to rely on some input from my fellow EVE players. Also, I could simply look up definitions but that'd be too easy (or perhaps hard, I haven't tried).
Who is considered a free man? What exactly defines someone who's free? Should someone who has to work for a living be considered free? Also, if we should consider someone who has to work for a living a free man, what amount of work should be considered to be within the borders of freedom?
What are your thoughts?
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Slade Trillgon
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.07.03 21:16:00 -
[2]
Well it really deoends on your definition of work and freedom.
I mean if we lived 10,000 years ago we would have to work our asses of to survive. Would that make us any less free then we are today?
Freedom is subjective and I am not real sure if there is a real answer out there.
So I will stick with, the ability to do what you want, within the law, most of the time
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
=v= |
KingsGambit
Caldari Knights
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Posted - 2009.07.03 21:18:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Slade Trillgon the ability to do what you want
Originally by: Slade Trillgon within the law
Originally by: Slade Trillgon most of the time
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BlackDragonShadow
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.03 21:28:00 -
[4]
I'm going to have to agree with Slade when he says that you really have to define freedom. True freedom is chaos. And slavery is order. So there are several different levels to freedom and you really have to define what you mean.
This sig was awesome but needs more EvE related content. - Mitnal
Fine. EVE Online |
Zyck
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.07.03 21:32:00 -
[5]
Since it's all perspective a free man is anyone who believes he is free.
If you think you aren't free, then you aren't, regardless of anything else. If you believe you're free, then at least in your mind, you are.
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Slade Trillgon
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.07.03 21:46:00 -
[6]
Zyck above put it pretty it in a simple and succinct fashion that I would accept.
Originally by: KingsGambit
Originally by: Slade Trillgon the ability to do what you want
Originally by: Slade Trillgon within the law
Originally by: Slade Trillgon most of the time
You made me laugh more then when I typed it out.
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
=v= |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2009.07.03 21:58:00 -
[7]
Financially indenpendants are free men, the rest of us not so much.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Dong Ninja
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Posted - 2009.07.03 22:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus Financially indenpendants are free men, the rest of us not so much.
Not necessarily, financial freedom doesn't mean true freedom, only partial freedom and that from having to make income. I would say he's still a slave to the economic system we've built that makes our lives easier, at the cost of having to go to work every day.
In that sense a man living in wilderness is more free from any of the above. I think we're going to have to define freedom, but freedom from what? Nobody has true freedom, in my opinoin, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Think about this, why would you want your fellow man to be totally free? That would be madness, even if they were given freedom most wouldn't know what to do with it, and you'd end up with total chaos in the world. Even the laws of the universe aren't totally free, and in the years I've been observing them they've been unchanging.
Originally by: Xen Gin Indeed, upgrading an MS OS is like taking a **** into a cake mixture, then complaining that it doesn't taste good when it's all done.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2009.07.03 22:11:00 -
[9]
In that case only the dead has seen the end of slavery.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Glarion Garnier
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.07.03 22:15:00 -
[10]
Notice! this is not a legal advice.
Here is aparently a quide on how bee free in the UK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ft_Qbx84rw
There aparently is a freedom movement going on in the common wealth countries where ppl do these notices of understandigs. What those notices do is they basically claim that one is a grown up and understands the obligations to exist peacfully in the society and so forth.
more stuff on the subject can be found from http://www.thinkfree.ca
_________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
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Dong Ninja
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Posted - 2009.07.03 22:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus In that case only the dead has seen the end of slavery.
Well, assuming you either have a Paradise or Damnation (heaven/hell) you are 'doomed' to either one for all eternity, or if you reincarnate you are trapped within the life/death cycle, or if you just flat don't exist anymore then you would be free, but it would be irrelevant because you aren't around to enjoy that freedom or lack of it.
I'm not saying that freedom or slavery is good or bad, but without some control or direction freedom is pointless.
Originally by: Xen Gin Indeed, upgrading an MS OS is like taking a **** into a cake mixture, then complaining that it doesn't taste good when it's all done.
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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.07.03 23:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Glarion Garnier Notice! this is not a legal advice.
Here is aparently a quide on how bee free in the UK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ft_Qbx84rw
There aparently is a freedom movement going on in the common wealth countries where ppl do these notices of understandigs. What those notices do is they basically claim that one is a grown up and understands the obligations to exist peacfully in the society and so forth.
more stuff on the subject can be found from http://www.thinkfree.ca
Social Services, or child protection agencies, fall outside of laws in many countries. This is done on purpose to give them immense powers and when it comes to it governments will do everything they can to protect these (insane) people. Power has totallu corrupted these fools and it has never been and never will be about the child or justice, it's all about power and governments use these agencies as oppression. While it sounds far fetched please think why modern day SSers don't get prossecuted when a child dies under their care and when you demand they release their files on you it takes years and most of it is all blacked out?
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.07.03 23:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus Financially indenpendants are free men, the rest of us not so much.
\o/
Originally by: Vaden Khale He's doing the moonwalk in HEE-hee-hell.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.07.03 23:53:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kessiaan on 03/07/2009 23:53:46 Freedom is an illusion used to keep the masses happy.
Other than that, what Slade said
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Sosus Red
Caldari Frontier Voyagers Crimson Dragons
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Posted - 2009.07.04 00:12:00 -
[15]
total freedom is anarchy. Of course you are free to do whatever you want but so is the bigger guy or the group of guys who wants to kill you and take what you have. Kind of like EVE.
Realistically, as much freedom as we can is having financial freedom. with that you do not have to answer to anyone but the law.
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Iasius
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.07.04 00:19:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Iasius on 04/07/2009 00:22:10 My Nietzsche inspired opinion on 'freedom' is:-
Someone who has the complex state of delight in been able according to their own volition attain their goals can consider themselves free. And can triumph over obstacles.
The "non-free" will is mythology; in real life it is only a question of STRONG and WEAK wills. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
SEN 5243
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Posted - 2009.07.04 01:36:00 -
[17]
freedom is when all karmas have been burned up otherwise theres still wheels keeping you bound
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.07.04 02:02:00 -
[18]
Free is a state of mind that every person on the planet can feel, one can do what he wants when he wants..... The only difference is how long.
A person in North Korea can probably spit in kim jong's face, unfortunately he probably wont live through such an endeavor but he is free to try.
So I say, the difference between a free man and an enslaved man is whether or not the said man is willing and able to do as he wishes.
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SEN 5243
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Posted - 2009.07.04 02:27:00 -
[19]
Edited by: SEN 5243 on 04/07/2009 02:29:04 free will is a very relative thing
indeed there is only one will in which all this appears and that one will is you
you al0ne are
states of mind are just as relative
they come and go come and go
some may last longer then other but still they come and go come and go
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Glarion Garnier
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.07.04 04:41:00 -
[20]
I came a cross with a video that is very much relevant to the illusion of freedom aspect that was brought out in this discussion.
Here Ed Griffin talks very wise words in under 10 minutes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw6zhIiGCvg
this is bit of topic (bit!) but good stuff to any of you thinkers out there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Dhv59JYpA&feature=related _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
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Protoxic PK
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Posted - 2009.07.04 06:52:00 -
[21]
Well first off freedom is not what one man wants or desires. What you want and desire does not make anyone including yourself free.What makes a man free is when he desides to allow others the right to have there own free will and w/e comes from this free will. I freedom total chaos?? thats absurd comingfrom what calls itself the most inteligent being, chaos comes from a control freak who only thinks his person selfish wants and desires are important/relivant. Freedom is in fact the abilty to do as one wishes so long as the wish one desires does not disrupt anothers "freedom". If your freedom causes another to be enslaved then you yourself are indeed not free because someone has the potential ability to also enslaved you. So to answer what is freedom. Freedom is what you offer to the rest of humanity not what you can gain from it. So then next time you wish you was free, think about those you have enslaved in some ay :P
PEACE from the PK
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.04 07:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus In that case only the dead has seen the end of slavery.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.07.04 10:13:00 -
[23]
As others already said, freedom and free will are subjective. We are all bound to causality and the rule of physical existence. When we have a choice between many options, we will choose one way only, depending on our personality, experiences and knowledge and understanding of the situation.
Within those limitations I belief you are free when you are in control of your self and know and accept the consequences of your actions and decisions.
Self control requires you to know and understand your own personality and behavioral functionality. The great thing about sentience is that you can watch yourself think, so you are capable of acquiring the information you need for self control directly from your own mind.
Acceptance of consequences needs you to understand the functionality outside of your mind and both knowledge of how reality works and how other people react. It needs you to grasp at some area of the cause and effect chains/webs so you can estimate the results of your behavior/actions/inactivity.
At least it requires you to accept that if things happen in a different way than expected it is due to your lack of understanding and can be chalked down as a learning experience. Grasping the limits of your scope allows you to know when you don't know what you are doing and with that allows you to set yourself free as freedom and liberation requires you to know when you are not in control so you can adapt your behavior accordingly by taking control, avoiding such situations or accepting the foreign control for the duration it is necessary.
Originally by: Danton Marcellus In that case only the dead has seen the end of slavery.
The dead are too dead to be free. They no longer exist as individuals. The dead are merely fading memories of the living. Then again, nothingness has kind of a liberating feel to it, too bad that nothing does not exist.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.07.04 10:24:00 -
[24]
The only way to be really free is to NOT participate in an economy and a monetary system. Which is only possible if you're living in an area that's not owned or regulated by anyone and you're all alone doing everything yourself.
ie; that's not happening much.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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jason hill
Caldari Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.04 10:29:00 -
[25]
yadada
destroy everything you touch |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.07.04 11:33:00 -
[26]
The man who is entitled to the sweat of his brow!
In reality, nobody.
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Azirapheal
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.04 12:00:00 -
[27]
to look at this philosophically you really need to break down your question a little more
i view freedom as a lack of restraint on ones character in its truest sense but it is also heavilly influenced by the culture and society the man finds himself in.
within society i would hypothesise that the only free men are the wealthiest - being not controlled by debt, may go as and when they choose, and can often break the restricting laws with lesser penalties depending on where they are and how corrupt the authorities are.
there is too much that controls us, laws - bits of paper by the way, the concept of civil disobediance (see poll tax) shows us that even the laws disappear when the people will it.
on the opposite end of the scale regarding wealth you might consider a true hippy or anarchist to be truly free. not your student glory boy campaigners, the true nutcases that dont give a damn about the law and will break it without thinking for their own ends and means.
debt controls us pieces of paper control us actions of others control us societal stigmas control us, break these and thou art free :)
Originally by: Grohalmatar The proposed changes in the game development forum are obviously a nerf to falcon pilots. However, what they really are is a nerf to falcon alts.
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Iasius
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.07.04 13:34:00 -
[28]
God gave mankind the damocles sword of karma to remind man and woman that they may have conquered the planet as they perceive it but as they prey on their own there will be a price for it.
There are other animal species that get God.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.07.04 13:44:00 -
[29]
I believe this is my answer __________________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Emon Mantis
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Posted - 2009.07.04 14:14:00 -
[30]
I'd say a guy without a wife and kids screeching in his ear is pretty free.
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