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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:49:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 18:49:59
Originally by: Orivanna There are some of you who are SUPPORTING spamming a button EVERY 3 SECONDS?
You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:51:00 -
[62]
Spamming the scan button every 3 seconds is possible, but after 2 or 3 hours every time you need to, in a system with multiple hostiles jumping in/out every 5-10 minutes, it can quickly begin to hurt your wrist/fingers, all the while activating/deactivating your guns, tank, moving to gates, opening mission cans, aligning when not moving to gates, all while constantly moving the curser to the scan button, hitting it, skimming results, hitting it again...
Physically possible? Yes. Physically endurable? No. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:51:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:52:57
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
And how is a cloaked cov ops probing for mission runners not 100% safe?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Exlegion
And how is a cloaked cov ops probing for mission runners not 100% safe?
I trust you are joking. The risk obviously lies in the encounter that ensues when the probing completes...
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:54:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:41:10 To put this a little more in perspective I'll give you the following example. If I'm running a mission near a moon for 30 minutes with a neutral in the system, I would need to hit the scan button 30*12 = 360 times! AND go through the results each and every time to spot a combat probe . This is a bit insane, don't you think?
If you did it. IF you did it (which you havent) AND you are 50k from the warp in point can. HOW would anyone get you?
If you want immunity then this seems sound. You get lazy and the gankers get an OPPORUNITY, you dont just insta blow up.
choice is yours, 99.9% chance of not getting killed you put in the effort. sounds fine to me. So in summary if a low sec runner uses the tools availble he is 99% immune. BUT you want that immunty with much less effort? yes?
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:54:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 18:49:59
Originally by: Orivanna There are some of you who are SUPPORTING spamming a button EVERY 3 SECONDS?
You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
Spamming the button does not make you 100% safe. You forget; People don't use permarun settups in lowsec. They use agile settups (Or should be). They have to dock, and warp from gates/stations. They have abandon missions or wait out hours at a time as soon as some pirates get a bookmark to the mission site.
If you catching targets relies 100% on the fast-scan technique, then you sir are a truly abysmal PvPer. You're almost as bad as you are trying to make lowsec explorers/missioners who actually use the scanning function look. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:55:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:52:57
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
And how is a cloaked cov ops probing for mission runners not 100% safe?
Gas clouds, Jet cans, smartbomber traps
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:57:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Blane Xero Spamming the button does not make you 100% safe. You forget; People don't use permarun settups in lowsec. They use agile settups (Or should be). They have to dock, and warp from gates/stations. They have abandon missions or wait out hours at a time as soon as some pirates get a bookmark to the mission site.
If you catching targets relies 100% on the fast-scan technique, then you sir are a truly abysmal PvPer. You're almost as bad as you are trying to make lowsec explorers/missioners who actually use the scanning function look.
I don't. In fact, I don't even tend to probe mission runners at all. I am merely an advocate of promoting PvP, non-consentual or otherwise. I propose the risk stays, but the reward is increased.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:59:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus I propose the risk stays, but the reward is increased.
most intelligent comment in the thread tbfh.
Off home. Enjoy the debate
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:59:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:52:57
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
And how is a cloaked cov ops probing for mission runners not 100% safe?
Gas clouds - No longer decloak people, nor prevent cloaking.
Jet cans - Prevents cloaking, but does not decloak. (though, there is a vague doubt in my mind that says this was changed with the cloaked ships decloaking cloaked ships, but i believe not) Oh and also, not all ships exit an accel gate in the same 2km sphere, its more like 7-10km.
smartbomber traps - Only conceivable threat and even than said traps would still require backup with them, in which case you should know its a trap in advance.
_____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 19:04:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 19:05:01
Originally by: Blane Xero Jet cans - Prevents cloaking, but does not decloak. (though, there is a vague doubt in my mind that says this was changed with the cloaked ships decloaking cloaked ships, but i believe not) Oh and also, not all ships exit an accel gate in the same 2km sphere, its more like 7-10km.
Jet cans decloak, as do cloaked ships. Either way, this is besides the point; again, I am sure you realize that the risk in probing down mission runners lies in the encounter that ensues once it completes.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.05 19:44:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 05/07/2009 19:46:45 Back to highsec with you if you dont like it - simple as that - Bye!
Que someone talking about predators and herds of gazelle:
It was bad enough when exlegion was running missions in highsec and whining about the dangers to him there (fyi he was one of the main whiners about wardecs). Now hes in lowsec whining. (o)
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.05 19:45:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 19:05:01
Originally by: Blane Xero Jet cans - Prevents cloaking, but does not decloak. (though, there is a vague doubt in my mind that says this was changed with the cloaked ships decloaking cloaked ships, but i believe not) Oh and also, not all ships exit an accel gate in the same 2km sphere, its more like 7-10km.
Jet cans decloak, as do cloaked ships. Either way, this is besides the point; again, I am sure you realize that the risk in probing down mission runners lies in the encounter that ensues once it completes.
Your point is entirely pertinent but also of note is the toxic gas clouds in missions blow your prober out of the sky before you have time to warp out.
SKUNK (o)
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:17:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 23:23:07 Again, aligning and moving 50,000 meters away from warp-in point is almost a moot point once my mission location has been compromised. I have no problems jetting a can at warp-in and drifting away. But once my mission location has been pinpointed my profits drop to zero as it now becomes a waiting game on who gets bored first, predator or prey. And my mission's on the clock. They're not. I've had to default on a couple of missions already because the pirates weren't even willing to accept "ransom" to let me complete it, even after I warned them I'd be defaulting.
All I ask CCP is to check this out as it's just plain insanity. If it's something they knew would happen or they're happy with the way it's turned out then end of story, plain and simple. Could CCP atleast comment whether they're aware of this?
And what's with all the hate from ex-Privateers? Come on guys. 2006 has long passed, yet the hate still fills your hearts. Let it go. It feel like an ex-Privateer Convention in here .
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:21:00 -
[75]
I usually side with the pirates and take the, "quit whining and actually play the game" stance when stuff like this comes up. But get a grip, guys. Having to hit a button every 5 seconds is a bit moronic. You can't seriously think that is a good idea for a game. Risk Repetitive Motion injuries if you want to be in lowsec. Uh... Seriously?
The balance lies somewhere in how often that scan button has to be clicked. Sounds a bit on the broke side to me.
----
Thus ev'ry kind their pleasure find, The savage and the tender; Some social join, and leagues combine; Some solitary wander. ~ Robert Burns |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:27:00 -
[76]
Currently you have to scan every 5 secs, move 50k, and drop a can and you can cut your loss chance to minimal, BUT you want it back to scanning to every minute or two so while your mission running you need to put less effort in. Those nasty pirates can still bust your site either way (so your OP is pointless) and keep you from completing anyways. So what you want (from your last post) is immunity in lowsec so you dont have to comprimise isk per hour or default on mission.
Summary, you want no risk with no effort, and max isk/hour in low sec.
I have an answer! JOIN AN NPC CORP AND GO BACK TO HI SEC.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:30:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 23:31:37
Originally by: Roy Batty68 I usually side with the pirates and take the, "quit whining and actually play the game" stance when stuff like this comes up. But get a grip, guys. Having to hit a button every 5 seconds is a bit moronic. You can't seriously think that is a good idea for a game. Risk Repetitive Motion injuries if you want to be in lowsec. Uh... Seriously?
The balance lies somewhere in how often that scan button has to be clicked. Sounds a bit on the broke side to me.
If he does it right, and drops a can, stays alinged 50k from warp in there is such a small remote chance he can be caught its offensive. Human lazyness/error is the only chance mission busters have.
If he wants to be lazy he has to admit the risk. if you want it so its EASIER to avoid the gank decrease the reward, OR inscreas the reward and let us warp to zero on the target rather than the gate. seems balanced at the moment, but re balancing is cool. Keep the scales in the middle though.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:35:00 -
[78]
Sorted,
You honestly expect someone to smash the scan button every 5 seconds for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, or however long the mission is just to mission in low sec? Are you being sarcastic or are you serious? Seriously, have you ever attempted in running a mission in low sec at all?
By the way, are you and Le Skunk the same player?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:37:00 -
[79]
So I'm lazy because I think smashing a button every 5 seconds and having to sort through the results is insane? Just. Wow.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar THE C0RP
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:51:00 -
[80]
Thread is now filled with boohoo.
Exact same whining that prevents local from being removed.
Snore.
Next whinge?
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.06 01:05:00 -
[81]
The risk lowsec runners take is losing a hefty amount of standings for defaulting on missions. PvPers are not held to a static area to do what they want; Mission runners are. Once the mission is compromised... THATS IT. Unless they leave, you cannot continue with the mission, will probably lose the time bonus and worst case scenario you're going to have to default that particular mission.
They risk getting caught at gates, warping away from the station, warping from gates to mission sites, and even mashing spam every 5-10sec they still risk being probed out.
We bring more people with us and split the profits? Highsec is more profitable, less hassle and more "Jump straight into it" instead of waiting for gang. Low sec mission runers / complexers are the few who accept the risks, take the losses, and move on. However when you get trapped / die because you failed to micromanage scanner + tank + guns + movement + watch local all while scanning every 5 seconds minimum, an auto scan becomes desired because at least when you get caught out your hand isnt dead from the Mouse-on-Button action between the scan button and your curser.
Buff lowsec missions/exploration, Fix the directional scanner to be something other than a directional spammer, and i'll shut up. I wont ask you to make it harder to catch me, it just means my arm isnt dead before the mission is over. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2009.07.06 02:42:00 -
[82]
If you want to do missions in low sec, with less risk then maybe try and control the system that you do missions in or let your corpmates defend you while you do it.
If you can't do those and you are simply using this thread as a way to covertly get CCP to listen to you, then perhaps mission running in low sec is not for you. Maybe post your suggestions in the Features and Ideas Discussion and/or Assembly Hall for CCP and the CSM to look over. Your thoughts will probably be more appreciated there.
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Olleybear
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.06 03:34:00 -
[83]
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Exlegion.
I currently live in 0.0 and used to be a low sec mission runner. Low sec mission running is more dangerous than belt ratting and plexing in 0.0.
Exlegion: Join a large 0.0 alliance and get out of low-sec. Trying to run missions in low sec to make isk has a greater risk than ratting and plexing in 0.0. You will be happier, make more isk, and be safer by going to a large 0.0 alliance. To hell with low sec and the ganking.
I stopped running missions in low sec long ago. Even before the latest changes to make scanning mission runners easier.
Scanning someone down in a mission is not pvp. Its ganking. Ganking is boring to a pvper. I am a pvper. I put myself in lower end ships than my target to try and figure out how to kill them and get that spectacular, WTF?!?! moment to show up on their face when I do succeed in killing them.
Low-sec has very few targets because running missions/ratting is more dangerous than doing the same thing in 0.0. Make running missions safer and you will get more mission runners in low sec. More mission runners in low sec = more targets undocking and jumping through gates and more chances to kill. Simple.
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
Artassaut
Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated
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Posted - 2009.07.06 03:36:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Artassaut on 06/07/2009 03:36:40 How to solve:
Allow the Scan button to be hotkeyed.
Really though, EVE needs an option where you have to hit enter to start chat, and every other button becomes available to hotkey. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U. |
Orb Lati
Minmatar ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.06 04:38:00 -
[85]
I'm not sure if the solution to detection of probes is just to keep spamming directional scan faster as i would imagine there would be a server load issue if you have alot of people doing this.
One avenue that pops to mind as a solution is that CCP might wish to develop a counter probe.
A probe that could be launched by missioner which have a very small range (0.5au?)and short life (5 min?, reset once recalled) but would affect the scan probe mechanic in some why to help protect the missioner (be it a reduction of ship signatures in its AOE or increase to scan deviation).
Another simple fix could be just to require a ship to decloak to pull in its probes and invalidate a hit result when the probes are returned (so the scout has to warp to the hit first before pulling probes).
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Tasha Voronina
Caldari Caldari Navy Reserve Force
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Posted - 2009.07.06 06:13:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Orb Lati [...] Another simple fix could be just to require a ship to decloak to pull in its probes and invalidate a hit result when the probes are returned (so the scout has to warp to the hit first before pulling probes).
Forcing said ship to decloak won't do much as it'll probably be sitting outside directional scanner range anyway, thus creating another minor annoyance (as if probers don't have enough of those). Plus, you'd also have to remove the "remote bookmarking a result" mechanic if you want to force someone to warp to the result before being able to pull probes - and I'm quite sure quite a few explorers would have a lot against that convenience being removed. Also, this discussion is by now better suited for Features and Ideas, don't you think? --- Sig will be updated shortly |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 07:09:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Exlegion Sorted,
You honestly expect someone to smash the scan button every 5 seconds for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, or however long the mission is just to mission in low sec? Are you being sarcastic or are you serious? Seriously, have you ever attempted in running a mission in low sec at all?
You just don't get it, do you. You're not supposed to be 100% safe in EVE, and that's why scanning for probes every 5 seconds is physically impossible. It's working as intended.
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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2009.07.06 08:12:00 -
[88]
Dudes, you have to see that from the point of view of the mission runner as well as from the pirate.
Both should have a realistic chance to get the **** out if scanned out or to catch the target. With the current game mechanics both is possible. If you want to be 100% safe, you have to spam the damn scan button, it cant be helped. Drag the scan overview wide and align it somewhere on the side of your screen to control as much as possible on the first glance on it. Dropping a can at the entry point and staying aligned to a celestial object gives you enough time to get out if scanned.
I'd say its more difficult for the pirate to scan you down then to get out. So nothing to complain here. Besides, you dont really need to spam it every 5 seconds just because there are some ppl in the system....not everyone is automatically after you. You have been scanned out once- but how many times did you get away?
There should be some risk involved if missioning in lowsec, otherwise it wouldnt be lowsec.
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Albert O'Balsam
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Posted - 2009.07.06 08:31:00 -
[89]
IMHO - scanning for anomalies / cosmic sigs works well enough, but scanning for ships is too biased towards the person scanning and gives little chance for the victim to escape. I dont ask for much - just a few seconds more to spot the probes would make all the difference. I think game mechanics is wrong when a pilot is constantly scanning for probes every 10 seconds or so and still misses the signs.
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.06 08:38:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You just don't get it, do you. You're not supposed to be 100% safe in EVE, and that's why scanning for probes every 5 seconds is physically impossible. It's working as intended.
I think 'working as intended' is a bit of a stretch, given that the scanning system was designed ages ago and hasn't taken Apocrypha changes into account at all. As far as I know, devs have commented that a rewamp of the directional scanner is something that has been simmering.
Personally I do low-sec exploration as it has a good balance between income and not being bored out of my mind. I have had a few run ins with the local shady types, but so far have come out on top. I thought I was being careful, but this thread has been enlightening, and if I don't get more cautious, I am probably going to get blown out of the water pretty soon.
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