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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:37:00 -
[181]
I don't think the new probing mechanism is flawed (except for SS busting, but that's for a different thread).
The real issue seems to me its awkward interaction with the directional scanner, which is capable to give you the exact position of any ship up to 14AU. Let me repeat: exact position. While d-scan does not allow you to warp to a probed a ship, it does a much better job than combat probe at telling you where it is, as it can tell you every ship's position with a km accuracy. This effectively eliminates the need for each scanning step except the final one. The d-scan should give you some idea of what's around you but I see no reason why it should give you more information than specialized scannig tools (i.e. scanner probes).
However, considering that the d-scan belongs to the "intel suit", I expect it to be overhauled, along with local, in a not too far future (winter expansion?).
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fmercury
Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:46:00 -
[182]
You have little to no idea what you're talking about.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:52:00 -
[183]
Ok as an intellectual excercise (and becasue it was asked by someone before) lets try to find some better mechanics.
1) The scanning mechanics is fine. The UI needs some work, some eye candy is getting in the way way too much, there are few bugs and it is unpolished. In adition it would be nice to be able to perform some fast scans on they fly in a window. Return of race specific probes would be welcome - it rewards experienced scanners that can get lock with generic probe or know exactly what they are looking for and to prey who knows which probes should it be concerned with and which not.
2) Lets imagine we replace the directional scanner with something as well known as a 3D minimap. We introduce some artificial error so that the blips are not positioned entirely correcly. Lets perform a "sweep" every say 10 seconds. Some events can take less than that so instead of making them artificially longer (not just scan by probes but also warp ins and outs) we make the sweep record everything that happened in that timeframe (the shorter events leave 10sec imprint). The size of that minimap can be related to ship sensor strength, giving ECCM modules reason to be more common (and get less ECM whines as result). It does not really do much more than directional scanner but it is way easier to use and the "sweep" cooldown is more server friendly than fast directional spammers.
3) As an added feature we introuduce ealy warning system that gives generic alerts to events like "hostile in system" "3 anomalies in system" (basically it just performs system wide combat probe scan on gating in and alerts when entity enters - now hidden - local list). Now we can take away local because we know hostile or neutral came - we just don't know who unless we search for him actively (which can be as simple as o7 in local). Also new players get a hint that they maybe want to put a probe laucher on their ship and see if they can nail that anomaly.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:56:00 -
[184]
Originally by: fmercury You have little to no idea what you're talking about.
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Arec Bardwin
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Posted - 2009.07.07 14:26:00 -
[185]
Originally by: fmercury I have little to no idea what you're talking about.
Nice of you to admit it at least.
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.07.07 14:48:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Forge Lag There should be certain tension in the whole predator-prey mechanics, trying to approach unseen or pretending to be harmless and for prey to assess threads correcly, not panicking wildly yet running when time is ripe. But there is very little of this fun in the current mechanics and it all degrades into wrestling with badly designed game UI.
That's about the size of it. Evading enemies and keeping watch for ambushers has the potential to be fun and interactive, allowing two pilots to compete long before they actually see each other. But in EVE, it's more a tedious chore and exercise in loophole-finding than anything else.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.07 15:02:00 -
[187]
Originally by: fmercury You have little to no idea what you're talking about.
Actually, Space Wanderer is spot on. You can "probe" anyone down with the directional (onbaord) scanner. You only need actual probes to give you a warpable point, and for that you only need 5 seconds. This needs to be fixed.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.07 15:51:00 -
[188]
Remove scan probes from being detectable by the directional scanner even if overview options are unchecked.
Add scan probes to be detectable and filterable by the inbuilt 5au ( 30 second ) scanner.
Add auto repeat to the 30 second inbuilt scanner.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.07.07 17:47:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Dav Varan Remove scan probes from being detectable by the directional scanner even if overview options are unchecked.
Add scan probes to be detectable and filterable by the inbuilt 5au ( 30 second ) scanner.
Add auto repeat to the 30 second inbuilt scanner.
I don't see what problem this would solve. Using the d-scan once every 30 secs is still manageable. It's using the scanner every 5 second that is under investigation in this thread.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.07 18:03:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Dav Varan Remove scan probes from being detectable by the directional scanner even if overview options are unchecked.
Add scan probes to be detectable and filterable by the inbuilt 5au ( 30 second ) scanner.
Add auto repeat to the 30 second inbuilt scanner.
I don't see what problem this would solve. Using the d-scan once every 30 secs is still manageable. It's using the scanner every 5 second that is under investigation in this thread.
It removes the problem of having to click a button every x number of seconds and having to sort through a list of crap in the results , both of which are a ballache.
Having a 30 second refresh time means its not infalable , probers can still get a hit with out being seen spotted , mission runner has a chance to spot hostile probes. 30 seconds is up for debate of course maybe skills to get the time down to 15 secs.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.07 22:54:00 -
[191]
There needs to be a balance. Onboard scanning doesn't need to be automated, IMHO. I just want a fair chance at actually seeing the combat probes. This was probably the most valuable tool that an alert mission runner had in low sec. If we're going to have to smash a button and go through pages of data all I ask is enough time to actually press the button and go through the data. The directional scanner is, in a sense, better than combat probes because using the D-scanner sends no wanings out and it is extremely accurate. As it stands, combat probes are good for one thing: Providing you with a warpable point. I don't think this is how it was supposed to be.
Could a dev be so kind as to comment on this?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Constable Chang
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.08 01:00:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Orivanna So let me get this straight. Do you think there are any good games on the market that would allow something STUPID as sitting and pressing same button over and over again for an hour straight like a broken metronome?
Just stand back and look at how stupid the idea sounds.
Raiding in World of Warcraft.
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Olleybear
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.08 01:29:00 -
[193]
Missions take place in the same area of space in a system. You run one mission/scan out a single mission runner, you now have the general location of all other missions in system. Bookmark that area, see mission runner come into system, warp to your bookmark, drop probes, 5 seconds later you have the mission runner. \o/
You can even hit your directional scanner to pick up the wrecks on scan and know the resistance hole before you even warp in.
This is not pvp. Its ganking.
It is safer in 0.0 than in low sec. Stay in high sec to make your isk or move to a large 0.0 alliance. Forget about low sec.
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
Taram Caldar
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.08 02:52:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 15:21:13
Originally by: Exlegion to start off they could use an increase to around 30 to 60 seconds in scan time with max skills.
Yeah, let's continue to nerf the **** out of PvP because you don't like it. On a more helpful note, there's no need to scan for probes in the first place. Just stay aligned and warp whenever someone decloaks. It's that easy.
This tbh. 1) If something warps in uncloaked and you are aligned you can warp before they finish their warp and have a shot at tackling you 2) Anything that decloaks coming out of warp has a 3-5 second de-cloak delay before they can even start to target you, let alone put a point on you.
Just be aligned and warp if anything shows up on overview. That simple.
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Xantris
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Posted - 2009.07.08 05:34:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Sorted Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 17:42:45
nice way to make the game cater for the lazy.
Why not just have an "auto Mission" button that completes it for him, holds correct ranges + alingment, monitors scans and docks when in danger. he comes back after work X100M Richer each day.
OR he could get his lazy ass back to hi sec. If he doesnt know by now to jet can on the mission entry point and move 50k away, staying alinged then i'm sure theres a handful of tricks he missing which will result in more "exploit" complaints... BACK TO HI SEC NUBBER
I don't understand how you think manually pressing a button every 3 seconds is good gameplay. Being able to set up an automated scan makes avoiding the danger of lowsec about what it really should be... paying attention and having a ready escape route. Not pushing a scan button for hours on end.
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Loco Eve
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Posted - 2009.07.08 05:52:00 -
[196]
Originally by: WarlockX
Originally by: Jimer Lins What I do is get a good line on the target with directional scanner, so I know about where they are. Then I drop probes way out of their scan range. Position the probes, and I can take my time to get them just right.
Then hit scan. The probes warp, they land, scan- takes about 5 seconds- then I hit "recover". Unless you were scanning during that window, you didn't see them, but I have a 100% hit.
Your best bet for avoiding this is to scan every 2-3 seconds if hostiles are in local or leave.
That sounds broken. You can't really expect ppl to hit scan every 2-3 seconds.
i do when nuets are around. habits of living in hostile 0.0 space. if i get a covert cloaker on scan i goto safe spot and log.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.08 10:12:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Olleybear
This is not pvp. Its ganking.
it IS PLAYER vs PLAYER. No one ever said it was fair. Welcome to EvE/Life.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.07.08 10:42:00 -
[198]
The current mechanics are horrible with respect to balance. They favor the hunter over the prey completely.
1 It is unreasonable to have to scan every 3 seconds.
2 The combination of the on board scanner + probles lets you find people way too fast.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.08 10:49:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Ghoest
They favor the hunter over the prey completely.
You have never hunted.
If they put the effort in they can escape 99 times out of 100
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:02:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Ghoest
They favor the hunter over the prey completely.
You have never hunted.
If they put the effort in they can escape 99 times out of 100
Ghoest is right. Onboard scanner + probes is horribly overpowered and skewed towards the hunter. You refuse to admit it because you're benefiting from this nonsense. You've even gone as far as saying that not smashing the button and going over results every 5 seconds and micromanaging the ship all at the same time is just me being "lazy". To be honest your statements show how far you're willing to go to gain an advantage in the game. You're willing to horribly handicap your prey to win over them. It's quite sad, TBH.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:36:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Sorted on 08/07/2009 11:38:24
Originally by: Exlegion [ Ghoest is right. Onboard scanner + probes is horribly overpowered and skewed towards the hunter. You refuse to admit it because you're benefiting from this nonsense. You've even gone as far as saying that not smashing the button and going over results every 5 seconds and micromanaging the ship all at the same time is just me being "lazy". To be honest your statements show how far you're willing to go to gain an advantage in the game. You're willing to horribly handicap your prey to win over them. It's quite sad, TBH.
You have clearly NEVER hunted. IF YOU DO IT RIGHT YOU CAN REDUCE YOUR CHANCE OF BEING CAUGHT TO NEARLY NIL. Change the 3 sec button bash to autorepeat, thats cool as I have to go through it myself anyways, BUT rebalance the reduced effort required by allowing the prober to land on 0. (rather than the gate). At the moment the only chance we have of a catch is if the prey gets lax in his precautions. The issue WAS the 3 sec button bash, remove that would reduce the catch chance as an absolute and THAT would be unbalancing. Read the rest of my posts you lazy nubber.
How far am I willing to go? arguing with an idiot on the forums? ( I should of learned last time I argued with an idiot, you lowerd me to your level then beat me with experience!)
BUT - answer this. Have you ever hunted ? Link mail pls.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:41:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Sorted on 08/07/2009 11:41:19
Originally by: Exlegion You're willing to horribly handicap your prey to win over them.
I'll gank 10 + falcon, Rapier, Arazu on 1 given a chance, it happens to me often enough (7 moms vs 1 BS lol)
If you find yourself in a fair fight then something went wrong.
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Liz Laser
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 12:46:00 -
[203]
If the techniques described here work as described, it is only a matter of time until this thread has everyone utilizing them, and missioners leaving low-sec again.
Pirates and Gankers. Victims of their own success.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.07.08 13:30:00 -
[204]
I don't think the problem here is with people's options for avoiding being caught; it's just that they can be found very rapidly, and this makes it difficult for low-sec mission runners to earn a reasonable profit in the long run.
Hunters and hunted alike are using the scanner excessively, so I don't think an auto-repeat option would give either side a significant advantage. I'd suggest that this is probably more a matter of UI and gameplay design than economic balance.
Random idea: how about making mission deadspaces take longer to probe down, while also disabling or limiting the directional scanner for ships within them?
--- 20:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:36:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Exlegion There needs to be a balance. Onboard scanning doesn't need to be automated, IMHO. I just want a fair chance at actually seeing the combat probes. This was probably the most valuable tool that an alert mission runner had in low sec. If we're going to have to smash a button and go through pages of data all I ask is enough time to actually press the button and go through the data. The directional scanner is, in a sense, better than combat probes because using the D-scanner sends no wanings out and it is extremely accurate. As it stands, combat probes are good for one thing: Providing you with a warpable point. I don't think this is how it was supposed to be.
Could a dev be so kind as to comment on this?
Sorry what are you complaining about then ? You have a 100% chance of seeing any probe if you scan often enough !!
Sound to me like you just missed them on this occasion, not scanning often enough or missed them in the clutter of the results list.
Nothing is broken.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:39:00 -
[206]
Edited by: Dav Varan on 08/07/2009 15:39:18 BTW were you in a Marauder ?
Afaik these are very easy to scan out from long range , so are easy to get a hit on first time.
+ Any ship if you fit ECCM you will be more difficult to scan out, giving you more opportunities to see probes.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.08 22:38:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Dav Varan You have a 100% chance of seeing any probe if you scan often enough !!
Sound to me like you just missed them on this occasion, not scanning often enough or missed them in the clutter of the results list.
Nothing is broken.
My friend, I know that by spamming the button often enough I will see the probes. My question is how much should ôoften enoughö be? 60 seconds? 5 seconds? 1 second? As it stands 5 seconds is just too low a number to be able to press ôscanö and review results. When I said scanning doesnÆt need to be automated I meant it doesnÆt have to be. There needs to be a balance. I donÆt want things to swing easy on the other direction either. Eventually this is something CCP will have to decide.
My point is that right this moment as things stand there is no reason to use combat probes to probe someone because not only could you pinpoint someoneÆs location to less than 1 A.U. but the D-scanner will not send out ôalertsö that someone is being probed down. Once you pinpoint someone down with your onboard scanner you only need probes to give you a warpable point. Yes, there will be exceptions in where the prey will be far from any celestial object or the proberÆs own bookmarks. But considering most mission are near celestial objects this is quite trivial.
How does this affect me? I will first say that I have learned to be quite careful in low sec. Yes, I align. Yes, I drop a can to decloak any cloaker. Yes, I move away from the gate. These steps are great in case I am abushed and will increase my chances of survival. My issue is with profitability in low sec. Low sec IS more profitable than high sec. IÆm not here to argue against that fact. But by my mission being found, and it WILL be found, since I will most likely not see the probes (letÆs face it, in a mission of 45 minutes I will have a window of 5 seconds to detect darn probes), my profitability will go to the floor. Yes, I can dock. Yes, I can fight them . Yes, I could hire a bigger blob to come gank them. But it doesnÆt take away the fact that profitability is rolling down the stairs.
LetÆs face it. Mission runners go to low sec to increase their bottom line over high sec. Pirates are there to kill the mission runners. ItÆs how the food chain is set up in Eve. But there will still need to be a reason for me, as a mission runner, to be there. The additional adrenalin is nice and all, but IÆm there mostly for profits. And if my PVE ship is docked, then IÆm not making ISK, which is fine since IÆm expecting this to happen often. However, now I must dock my PVE ship EVERY SINGLE TIME a neutral enters a low sec system because I have no idea if heÆs probing me or not. I will now spend a hell of a lot more time wondering, docking, checking stations, etc rather than completing my mission.
My other option would be to mission ætill IÆm busted. Hopefully IÆm aligned and I warp out on time. But once I dock might as well go kill some time doing something else.
IÆm not asking for ô100% safetyö. IÆm asking CCP to keep low sec productive so that I still have a reason to stay there. But the new probing mechanics have tipped off the scale too far into the side of the hunter. Again, probes are no longer needed to probe down players other than to provide a hunter with a warpable point. ôProbingö can be accomplished exclusively, accurately, and in complete stealth by the built-in directional scanner. Once probes are launched theyÆre out for a whole 5 seconds. And as a mission runner I have that much time to spot them on my scanner. Does that seem balanced? That is the question I want CCP to answer.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Methodius
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Posted - 2009.07.08 23:12:00 -
[208]
EVE needs RWR for ships. Simple as that. The probe scanning system post Apocrypha has gotten too good for the old fashioned ship scanner we're all used to.
Introduce extra skills, a module or whatever... but it needs to be implemented.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.10 11:23:00 -
[209]
CCP, could you confirm that you know the situation with the directional scanner and combat probes? Are they working as intended?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
mari essence
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Posted - 2009.07.11 19:46:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Tammarr nerf pvp? nerf the insane probably non intended buff to piracy. Earlier, you could get out of your mission if you were vigilant, now you have no idea they are coming? Earlier, there was no problem getting someone in a mission that didnt check to often. I do piracy, I do missionbusting, I do this when I'am bored, if I want to kill a rat, then Ill go run my own missions. Killing a missionrunner, is like killing your standard belt bs rat. Dont call it pvp =) (Ok, sometimes they'll actually agree to a ransom long as your reasonable.) No, I'am not upset, and yes, if we got hostiles in sys, we usually plan a tarp for them. So I'am not to concerned but meh, to much of a buff is to much.
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