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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.04 22:42:00 -
[1]
Greetings fellow pilots,
Lately I've been noticing an increasing trend where I am being probed down without me ever seing combat probes on my on-board scanner (overview settings unchecked, 360 degrees, max scanning range, objects rearranged by type, etc). I haven't been "caught" yet as I am always aligned. I am also extremely paranoid in low security space. I hit the scan button every 30 to 60 seconds, more or less. I always search for combat, sisters combat, and deep space probes. This week alone I was scanned down by two different groups of pirates on two different missions both of which managed to intrude without me ever detecting a single probe!
My concern is probing players as it is has become extremely easy after the last major patch. Add this new "feature" (new at least to me) and probing down mission runners in low security space has become a golden egg which can/will quickly be 'exploited' to a point that will negatively impact low security space and all its inhabitants, including pirates themselves. IÆve had to revoke missions once they become compromised. My efficiency and profits are quickly declining and high security is becoming more and more lucrative, even though the rewards are less.
I think I have figured out on why the probes are being missed by my on-board scanner but would like someone to post the exact procedures, if it isnÆt too much to ask, on how it is done. Also, I would like to ask CCP if this is an unforeseen consequence due to the changes made to the probing system. If it is not an oversight (it is intended), would this not further desolate low security space from ôpreyö? Opinions, flames, facts, and trolls all welcome.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Cypherous
Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.07.04 22:52:00 -
[2]
Well my probes always show up on my scanner if i'm not using the overview settings even post patch, given it only takes 8-10 seconds to score a hit unless you're spamming that button every few seconds you can miss the probes, with decent equipment and probes it really is easy to probe them out, the max scan range of the directional scanner is also only 14au and probes can scan further than that, while its highly unlikely to provide a warpable hit it does let them narrow it down to an area of space and they can then drop the smaller probes and go for a scan and as i said unless you're spamming that button it can be hard to see it coming.
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.07.04 22:53:00 -
[3]
Oh I do hope it was Exlegion's Chimera that got probed down
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Tammarr
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Posted - 2009.07.05 00:12:00 -
[4]
I to have been scanned down, first time I lost a ship in a mission. Heres the thing. I knew they were in system, I knew they had a prober, I let my domi deal with the rats in its own pace, constantly hitting scan, that is every 15-25s, I was very vigilant. No probes, but boom. Suddenly, a blinky appears in pocket, and got me scrammed, rest followed. I didnt complain, but it made me annoyed, others have been reporting probes not showing up. If it turns out there is some kind of exploit here, I will petition. ...overview sorted by type...
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar THE C0RP
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Posted - 2009.07.05 01:13:00 -
[5]
Protip: Smart covops/probe-equipped recon pilots suck back the probes at a 100% hit ready for re-launching at a hint of logoffski .
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Orb Lati
Minmatar ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.05 01:23:00 -
[6]
So let me get this straight.
you were in a dead space anomaly and the nasty pirate used core probes to get the anomaly (where you were) and not combat probes to find you ship.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Thernys
Caldari Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.05 01:25:00 -
[7]
Another protip, smart scouts locate their pray using directional, launch probes outside of directional range where possible, arrange them, run a scan, recall, the probes are visible to the victim for perhaps 10 seconds.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 01:31:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 01:32:31 Orb Lati,
No, these were level 4 (agent assigned) missions, not anomalies. And the last time I was invaded (tonight) I didn't see core probes either. I can't know for sure on the other times because 1, too many objects were picked up by my onboard, and 2, I was not specifically looking for core probes, only the ones I listed on the OP. Is it even possible to scan mission deadspace using core probes?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 01:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Thernys Edited by: Thernys on 05/07/2009 01:27:53 Another protip, smart scouts locate their prey using directional, launch probes outside of directional range where possible, arrange them, run a scan, recall, the probes are visible to the victim for perhaps 10 seconds.
Edit, spleling.
See bold. This is exactly my concern. Is it reasonable to expect a player to spam the scan button every 10 seconds when a neutral enters system? Or will he have to dock every time a neutral enters system? These scenarios are the reasons low security space is becoming less profitable and less desirable. In my opinion it won't help anyone in the long run.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.05 02:36:00 -
[10]
What I do is get a good line on the target with directional scanner, so I know about where they are. Then I drop probes way out of their scan range. Position the probes, and I can take my time to get them just right.
Then hit scan. The probes warp, they land, scan- takes about 5 seconds- then I hit "recover". Unless you were scanning during that window, you didn't see them, but I have a 100% hit.
Your best bet for avoiding this is to scan every 2-3 seconds if hostiles are in local or leave.
Killboard - Declarations of War Podcast |
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WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2009.07.05 03:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jimer Lins What I do is get a good line on the target with directional scanner, so I know about where they are. Then I drop probes way out of their scan range. Position the probes, and I can take my time to get them just right.
Then hit scan. The probes warp, they land, scan- takes about 5 seconds- then I hit "recover". Unless you were scanning during that window, you didn't see them, but I have a 100% hit.
Your best bet for avoiding this is to scan every 2-3 seconds if hostiles are in local or leave.
That sounds broken. You can't really expect ppl to hit scan every 2-3 seconds. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 04:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: WarlockX That sounds broken. You can't really expect ppl to hit scan every 2-3 seconds.
Sadly i'm going to agree with this. There's already enough micro-management if you are lowsec missioning/plexing, and bringing along a scout friend/alt wont change it since they are either sitting doing nothing but spam scan, or you're still doing the micro-management but across two characters (Which is harder). I personally scan about once every 5-10 seconds, any more and i'll break my index finger from Clicking/wrist from jerking reactions every 2 seconds (Countdown till joke 3...2...1...) _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr Corp 1 Allstars
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Posted - 2009.07.05 05:26:00 -
[13]
By any chance you were in a shield-rigged, invuln-blaring capital ship that was shieldboosting and had fighters out? Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.05 06:53:00 -
[14]
Others have provided the real answer, but here is another tip. You should sort directional scanner by Name, not by Type. Since the Typename of scanner probes differ depending in the kind of probe, the different probe types wont be in the same place alphabetically on the list if you sort by type. If you sort by Name, they are all under 'S' for 'Scanner Probe'.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.07.05 07:23:00 -
[15]
So the scanning mechanics is not really broken. The interface that would allow for interesting and tense hunter-prey interaction is broken. Who would say that, EvE UI is terrible, getting in the way for no good reason and designed by morons who will not get a clue after years on job (see new scanning interface for proof).
Yes, they move probes in, scan, move them out. There is no obligation to keep probes in range to keep the hit.
Yes, you should hit scan every few seconds if you want to play the game correctly and fiter results without filters. Button mashing at its finest. Screw that.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2009.07.05 07:59:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Forge Lag .. Yes, you should hit scan every few seconds if you want to play the game correctly and fiter results without filters. Button mashing at its finest. Screw that.
Nobody will see scan probes on scanner when he doesn't hit the scan button every 3 seconds but on the other hand, you only see them when the scanner shows you all findings... lol. Try to sort through the results in a reasonable amount of time. Its just simply broken that way.
And as I know the Pirates they'll make use of the 6 sec scan probe window near the target to their hearts extend..
Apoc 1.4 better is about a new intel-scanning-system then or shortly after the vanishing of the prey the predators will suffer.
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Fall Girl
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Posted - 2009.07.05 11:10:00 -
[17]
EVE is not a single player game. |
Siren Call
Dragon Highlords Death Is Everywhere
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Posted - 2009.07.05 11:16:00 -
[18]
We have noticed that Sisters scan probes sometimes do not appear on scanner. This could be your issue. We have not managed to recreate this bug though.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.05 13:01:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 05/07/2009 13:05:07
Originally by: Exlegion
This is exactly my concern. Is it reasonable to expect a player to spam the scan button every 10 seconds when a neutral enters system? Or will he have to dock every time a neutral enters system?
You can dock if you wish to be 100% safe. Or if you wish to continue to profit from the extra rewards you decided were worth moving to lowsec to run your missions, you can stay alert, scan, and align to get out and be 90% safe.
Whilst i would certainly agree it is inconvienieant to spam your scan every 10 seconds to be extra safe - its the trade off for being in lowsec.
It is worth noting ALL pilots in lowsec have to do this, be they mission runers or combat pilots in a SS, or pirate scouts scanning for incoming ships.
If this is not acceptable to you - get back into highsec.
Bears in lowsec are driven purely by greed.This runs at odd with the Bears natural cowardice. Its tough being a bear.
SKUNK
(o)
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Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 13:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: WarlockX
That sounds broken. You can't really expect ppl to hit scan every 2-3 seconds.
many people disagree and wish for local to go away as a proof that not only MUST you, but if you can't, its your fault you die every time you undock for more than 8 seconds ;0
The future is neigh!
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 13:09:00 -
[21]
I'd say having to spam your scan button every 10 seconds or less is more than just a trade-off. It's simply madness and quite unreasonable. I suspect this was a simple oversight from CCP's part. But it would be nice to get an official comment.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 13:10:00 -
[22]
oh and as someone already mentioned, its not a single player game.
Why aren't you running in a gang with pvp support? Seems your mission running will always bring pvp to to you (It doesn't get much better than that), so get people that want to pvp in gang and second you get guests, warp em in to whoop em.
More wrecks make more prizes. These rats might even drop faction loot / t2 gear. Its WELL WORTH IT.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 13:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx By any chance you were in a shield-rigged, invuln-blaring capital ship that was shieldboosting and had fighters out?
No. All times I've been probed down has been on a battleship hull. I'd like to add that I'm pretty alert in low sec and it is not a question of me being half asleep or such. As I said before, I am extremely paranoid in low sec. And my concern is that spamming a button for my own security now fails me because I am not spamming it enough.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 13:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Spurty oh and as someone already mentioned, its not a single player game.
Why aren't you running in a gang with pvp support? Seems your mission running will always bring pvp to to you (It doesn't get much better than that), so get people that want to pvp in gang and second you get guests, warp em in to whoop em.
More wrecks make more prizes. These rats might even drop faction loot / t2 gear. Its WELL WORTH IT.
Are you suggesting I should have players donate their time to protect me while I run my missions? Will your own corporation do me the honor?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Bish Ounen
Gallente Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.07.05 13:51:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Spurty oh and as someone already mentioned, its not a single player game.
Why aren't you running in a gang with pvp support? Seems your mission running will always bring pvp to to you (It doesn't get much better than that), so get people that want to pvp in gang and second you get guests, warp em in to whoop em.
More wrecks make more prizes. These rats might even drop faction loot / t2 gear. Its WELL WORTH IT.
Are you suggesting I should have players donate their time to protect me while I run my missions? Will your own corporation do me the honor?
Why not have your own corp help you out? Unless you are in a one-man corp, you should have some corp members willing to help you. If you don't, I would suggest finding yourself a proper corp that actually gives a damn about it's members, and is willing to help them out. Keep in mind that PVP players will WELCOME a chance to get into a fight and will gladly come along with you to try and bait pirates. The fact that you would have to share some of the mission rewards (via the bounty system) with them is only icing on the cake for PVP people. Fix the Wardec System! Upgrade the Probing System! |
Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.05 14:54:00 -
[26]
Prior to Apocrypha you needed bloody damn good skills, a cov ops and right equipment to even probe someone down before they disappeared from directional when they logged off.
Now you need a kids skills (a 2 day old character found me in a site in low sec), basic gear and it goes damn fast. The other guys above posted some ideas of tactics used (I like the directional/recall one myself, as probes are minimum time in space).
Not sure what I like tbh. This new system requires interaction and isn't as 'hard' on players, skillwise, which both is nice. But then again, it's way too fast and easy at the same time.
Will anything ever be balanced, in any MMO? /me shrugs - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:09:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 15:10:21 Agreed. PVE vs. PVP arguments aside, combat probes seem to be unbalanced at the moment. to start off they could use an increase to around 30 to 60 seconds in scan time with max skills. That would force them to remain in space for at least that long. One would still need to spam the scan button every thirty secons or so, but it would be realistically doable, unlike every 5 to 10 seconds as it is now! I personally would prefer to only have to spam every minute or so, but that idea probably wouldn't go too well with the hunters.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:19:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 15:21:13
Originally by: Exlegion to start off they could use an increase to around 30 to 60 seconds in scan time with max skills.
Yeah, let's continue to nerf the **** out of PvP because you don't like it. On a more helpful note, there's no need to scan for probes in the first place. Just stay aligned and warp whenever someone decloaks. It's that easy.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:24:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Bish Ounen Why not have your own corp help you out? Unless you are in a one-man corp, you should have some corp members willing to help you. If you don't, I would suggest finding yourself a proper corp that actually gives a damn about it's members, and is willing to help them out. Keep in mind that PVP players will WELCOME a chance to get into a fight and will gladly come along with you to try and bait pirates. The fact that you would have to share some of the mission rewards (via the bounty system) with them is only icing on the cake for PVP people.
By sharing bounties you cut out any reason for missioning in lowsec over highsec. Bringing 2 people into a mission does not directly half the time it takes to do a mission, but it does half the income. Same with bringing 3, 4 people. Profit does not scale with People linearly. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Tammarr
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:41:00 -
[30]
nerf pvp? nerf the insane probably non intended buff to piracy. Earlier, you could get out of your mission if you were vigilant, now you have no idea they are coming? Earlier, there was no problem getting someone in a mission that didnt check to often. I do piracy, I do missionbusting, I do this when I'am bored, if I want to kill a rat, then Ill go run my own missions. Killing a missionrunner, is like killing your standard belt bs rat. Dont call it pvp =) (Ok, sometimes they'll actually agree to a ransom long as your reasonable.) No, I'am not upset, and yes, if we got hostiles in sys, we usually plan a tarp for them. So I'am not to concerned but meh, to much of a buff is to much.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:45:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 05/07/2009 15:45:50
Originally by: Caelum Dominus Yeah, let's continue to nerf the **** out of PvP because you don't like it. On a more helpful note, there's no need to scan for probes in the first place. Just stay aligned and warp whenever someone decloaks. It's that easy.
1) less probability to survive in hostile environment = less targets
2) you cant stay aligned all the time (try hacking a can for instance in a BC/BS aligned to the next planet, LOL)
3) less targets = more PvP'er whine on the forums about scarceness of targets (as if it isn't already as bad as it could be, but looks like you clueless knucklehead really want more of it)
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Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:56:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Exlegion
Are you suggesting I should have players donate their time to protect me while I run my missions? Will your own corporation do me the honor?
I would if you were in my corp, sure. More than happy to come to the aid of a corp mate, especially if there is pvp involved.
But, alas, you aren't so offer only extended as far as the alliance I'm in.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:01:00 -
[33]
I'm staying neutral as far as probing goes, I have little difficulty probing people, however having waited on others to probe a logged out and aggressed target for over 10mins, its clear to me, its not simple to everyone.
There are some issues with people running missions outside of highsec and not watching local mind you. You need to control the system else you might as well dock.
There is power in numbers (sadly this is the trump card in EVE).
solo players are very poorly catered for. Market pvp is probably the only truly safe (never lose a ship or your implants if you don't undock) solo profession.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:03:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 16:04:39
Originally by: Tres Farmer
1) less probability to survive in hostile environment = less targets
This is the wrong way to go about introducing people to low-sec. It should be done by increasing the reward, not lowering the risk.
Originally by: Tres Farmer
2) you cant stay aligned all the time (try hacking a can for instance in a BC/BS aligned to the next planet, LOL)
You're not supposed to be 100% safe.
Originally by: Tres Farmer
3) less targets = more PvP'er whine on the forums about scarceness of targets (as if it isn't already as bad as it could be, but looks like you clueless knucklehead really want more of it)
See #1.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:09:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 16:12:50 Caelum Dominus,
You don't find that having to spam the scan button every 5 seconds in order to find out if you're being probed unrealistic? Try running a mission while spamming a button every 5 seconds to see how long it takes you to go insane. Don't forget to go over the results each and every time looking for the probes. If you have run even one mission in low sec you will know exactly what I'm talking about.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Exlegion Try running a mission while spamming a button every 5 seconds to see how long it takes you to go insane.
this is why I'm against local going away without an equivalent passive way to generate this intel. Its just going to drive the wrong people away and be such a joke in the gaming industry.
Can't wait for the Penny Arcade send up of it.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:15:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 16:15:45
Originally by: Exlegion Caelum Dominus,
You don't find that having to spam the scan button every 5 seconds in order to find out if you're being probed unrealistic? Try running a mission while spamming a button every 5 seconds to see how long it takes you to go insane.
I find it completely ridiculous, but seeing that it makes you 110% safe (something that goes against the very essence of EVE) I think it's reasonable.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:17:00 -
[38]
In a lot of movies/TV shows, ships are alerted by their on-board sensors (module?) that they are being scanned.
Nothing detailed, just an alert that your ship has been hit by a probe scan. KB |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:21:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Blane Xero on 05/07/2009 16:23:58
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 16:12:50 Caelum Dominus,
You don't find that having to spam the scan button every 5 seconds in order to find out if you're being probed unrealistic? Try running a mission while spamming a button every 5 seconds to see how long it takes you to go insane. Don't forget to go over the results each and every time looking for the probes. If you have run even one mission in low sec you will know exactly what I'm talking about.
Its alot worse with complex's mate. Considering 1. Some love to despawn if you warp out half way done. 2. You then have to look for core probes, aswell as combat probes. 3. Escalations seem to love sending me to Genesis, around the mission hubs where pirate corps hang
We need an auto-scan every 5 seconds, and to be able to add probes to the overview OR better filter out scan results.
EDIT: Also it doesn't make you 100% safe. And in the cases it does (Safespot + cloak) you are haulted in doing anything yourself. Its not like you're still constantly making safe money, the risks are there all the time, and once someone has probed you out they can camp your mission till you return. All this time you're making zero isk. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:24:00 -
[40]
Originally by: KaarBaak
In a lot of movies/TV shows, ships are alerted by their on-board sensors (module?) that they are being scanned.
Nothing detailed, just an alert that your ship has been hit by a probe scan.
Hey, I have a better idea; why don't we just have the pilot probing announce "I AM A PIRATE AND I AM GOING TO KILL YOU, AND NOW I KNOW WHERE YOU ARE" in local automatically?
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.05 16:53:00 -
[41]
I believe that the best solution to this would be to allow probes to be filtered for on the scanner, and to have an auto-repeat feature which re-scans every 5 seconds.
Killboard - Declarations of War Podcast |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:41:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 17:42:45
Originally by: Jimer Lins I believe that the best solution to this would be to allow probes to be filtered for on the scanner, and to have an auto-repeat feature which re-scans every 5 seconds.
nice way to make the game cater for the lazy.
Why not just have an "auto Mission" button that completes it for him, holds correct ranges + alingment, monitors scans and docks when in danger. he comes back after work X100M Richer each day.
OR he could get his lazy ass back to hi sec. If he doesnt know by now to jet can on the mission entry point and move 50k away, staying alinged then i'm sure theres a handful of tricks he missing which will result in more "exploit" complaints... BACK TO HI SEC NUBBER
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:42:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Jimer Lins I believe that the best solution to this would be to allow probes to be filtered for on the scanner, and to have an auto-repeat feature which re-scans every 5 seconds.
nice way to make the game cater for the lazy.
Why not just have an "auto Mission" button that completes it for him, holds correct ranges + alingment, monitors scans and docks when in danger. he comes back after work X100M Richer each day.
Because an autorepeat on scanner completely removes every risk in lowsec, C/D _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:43:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 17:46:24
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Jimer Lins I believe that the best solution to this would be to allow probes to be filtered for on the scanner, and to have an auto-repeat feature which re-scans every 5 seconds.
nice way to make the game cater for the lazy.
Why not just have an "auto Mission" button that completes it for him, holds correct ranges + alingment, monitors scans and docks when in danger. he comes back after work X100M Richer each day.
Because an autorepeat on scanner completely removes every risk in lowsec, C/D
lazy... not all risk he could still sit still like a stoned monkey while tackled... just LAZY, c/d?
If he cant be botherd to scan, ok.. auto scanner. What about alinging out? Auto alingment. Ok Watching local? how about a big warning pop up NEW LOCAL AWWOOGH. Clicking warp to dock. CBA? ok. auto warp to dock. hell you would do it, so why not take away the effort. OK. thats in
Whats next?
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:48:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sorted Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 17:46:24
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Jimer Lins I believe that the best solution to this would be to allow probes to be filtered for on the scanner, and to have an auto-repeat feature which re-scans every 5 seconds.
nice way to make the game cater for the lazy.
Why not just have an "auto Mission" button that completes it for him, holds correct ranges + alingment, monitors scans and docks when in danger. he comes back after work X100M Richer each day.
Because an autorepeat on scanner completely removes every risk in lowsec, C/D
lazy... not all risk he could still sit still like a stoned monkey while tackled... just LAZY, c/d?
If he cant be botherd to scan, ok.. auto scanner. What about alinging out? Auto alingment. Ok Watching local? how about a big warning pop up NEW LOCAL AWWOOGH. Clicking warp to dock. CBA? ok. auto warp to dock. hell you would do it, so why not take away the effort. OK. thats in
Whats next?
People said the same thing about the skill queue, and since its implimentation i've only seen 3! threads about extending it and 2! of those were because they didnt graso how the limit actually worked. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:52:00 -
[46]
What? Your saying the game isnt catering to the lazy more so than it did in the past? Or that it is, buts it ok atm. Wheres the line which CCP will inevitbly cross for you?
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:00:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:06:00
Originally by: Sorted OR he could get his lazy ass back to hi sec. If he doesnt know by now to jet can on the mission entry point and move 50k away, staying alinged then i'm sure theres a handful of tricks he missing which will result in more "exploit" complaints... BACK TO HI SEC NUBBER
Relax, take a deep breath. I'm merely pointing out that having to press a button every 5 seconds is not realistic. You're going on a tangent and you seem to be losing your temper on the way. Re-read the OP and feel free to give your opinions on the subject. But just to clear some misconceptions from your behalf, I'm not a "nubber"; been running missions in low sec space for a long time now. My issue isn't with staying aligned or moving 50,000 meters away from the warp-in point. The only other thing I can suggest you to do to better understand the issue is run missions yourself. Give it a try. Do it in low sec. Spam the button every 5 seconds, go through the results, and then come share your findings with us.
By the way, try to add more substance besides calling me "lazy", a "monkey", or "nubber". That's all fine and dandy, but some substance would be nice as well :).
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
|
Posted - 2009.07.05 18:12:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 18:13:13
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:06:00
Originally by: Sorted OR he could get his lazy ass back to hi sec. If he doesnt know by now to jet can on the mission entry point and move 50k away, staying alinged then i'm sure theres a handful of tricks he missing which will result in more "exploit" complaints... BACK TO HI SEC NUBBER
Relax, take a deep breath. I'm merely pointing out that having to press a button every 5 seconds is not realistic. You're going on a tangent and you seem to be losing your temper on the way. Re-read the OP and feel free to give your opinions on the subject. But just to clear some misconceptions from your behalf, I'm not a "nubber"; been running missions in low sec space for a long time now. My issue isn't with staying aligned or moving 50,000 meters away from the warp-in point. The only other thing I can suggest you to do to better understand the issue is run missions yourself. Give it a try. Do it in low sec. Spam the button every 5 seconds, go through the results, and then come share your findings with us.
By the way, try to add more substance besides calling me "lazy", a "monkey", or "nubber". That's all fine and dandy, but some substance would be nice as well :).
I've ganked more mission runners than most, I know how offensivly easy it is to avoid 99% of ganks. If you cba to scan, as well as take other afformentioned precautions then back to highsec with ya, you want the reward without the effort/risk - or so it seems to me. If you can be botherd to scan, and do take extra precatuions then even if you miss the probes you are alinged, 50k from warp in and your can just decloaked the tackler anyway. You have so MANY saftey features already, and now your calling exploit when there is none, wanting MORE features to make your mission running safer/easier.
PS I called you a nubber. The Lazy Monkey comments were whining mission running nubber generalisations.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:14:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 18:14:45
Originally by: Exlegion Spam the button every 5 seconds, go through the results, and then come share your findings with us.
I Do this all the time in low sec, on my main and my scouts when unknown neutrals in local. Every 3 Secs actually, but thats splitting hairs.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:16:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Exlegion The only other thing I can suggest you to do to better understand the issue is run missions yourself. Give it a try.
Try it the other way round, try and catch someone running missions in low sec and call balance then.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:17:00 -
[51]
I want low sec to be worthwhile running missions in. Having to dock every time a neutral jumps in because I now cannot be sure if he'll be probing me brings low security's profitability down to the ground. That is my problem with this.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
|
Posted - 2009.07.05 18:18:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 18:19:08
Originally by: Exlegion I want low sec to be worthwhile running missions in. Having to dock every time a neutral jumps in because I now cannot be sure if he'll be probing me brings low security's profitability down to the ground. That is my problem with this.
Drop a Can at your mission warp in, move 50k away, stay alinged. cry less.
OR DOCK OR Go back to highsec
I dont care really either way, got 40 mins to kill till shift end, and home time.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:21:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:24:00
Originally by: Sorted I Do this all the time in low sec, on my main and my scouts when unknown neutrals in local. Every 3 Secs actually, but thats splitting hairs.
You spam the button every 3 seconds and also have time to sort through the results? All this while concentrating on something else (ie, mission-running)? How long do you spend accomplishing all this at the same time? 30 minutes? 45 minutes?
I have to admit, you are ungodly good at this, assuming you're not exaggerating.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Great Artista
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2009.07.05 18:26:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Exlegion I hit the scan button every 30 to 60 seconds, more or less.
Spotted the problem. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told.
◕◡◕
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:27:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 18:31:21 Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 18:29:51
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:21:52
Originally by: Sorted Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 18:14:45
Originally by: Exlegion Spam the button every 5 seconds, go through the results, and then come share your findings with us.
I Do this all the time in low sec, on my main and my scouts when unknown neutrals in local. Every 3 Secs actually, but thats splitting hairs.
You spam the button every 3 seconds and also have time to sort through the results? All this while concentrating on something else (ie, mission-running)? How long do you spend accomplishing all this at the same time? 30 minutes? 45 minutes?
I have to admit, you are pretty good at this, assuming you're not exagerating.
I spam the button on the fwd/back scout, while organising the gang, re positioning based on intel from my own scouts or Alt. During an engagement this carries on while I call primary/secondary and remind the newer pilots I am with on overload, range, drones, Nos/neuts on the Sec/Prim, check my own ranges, run my ECM alt (ranges, matching race to race ecm, cap tacklers, positions, bookmarks and warp ins), manage my cap + overload, rep cycles, check drone damage and transersval, check local count and take intel on pilots ages in local infos. Yes. & I can still manage to scan for incoming ships either in system or next door. WHAT is your suggested alternaive to using the scanner reguarly? WHAT is your favorite colour? AND WHAT is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow.
EDIT: If anyone else wants to FC gangs I am more than happy to sit back and do as I am told however! means I can drink more :)
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:29:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 18:28:56
Originally by: Exlegion
I have to admit, you are ungodly good at this, assuming you're not exaggerating.
No i get distracted and make mistakes, I die, gang mates die. They mess up, we die. the margin for error is all that remains to ensure a good whalloping in un-consensual PVP now. (either to or by us)
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:31:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Great Artista
Originally by: Exlegion I hit the scan button every 30 to 60 seconds, more or less.
Spotted the problem.
Indeed . So my question is: Should I be realistically expected to spam every 5-10 seconds and sort through the results? Is it even humanly possible? According to Sorted, itthe answer is yes. But is this reasonable?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
|
Posted - 2009.07.05 18:32:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 18:36:55
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Great Artista
Originally by: Exlegion I hit the scan button every 30 to 60 seconds, more or less.
Spotted the problem.
Indeed . So my question is: Should I be realistically expected to spam every 5-10 seconds and sort through the results? Is it even humanly possible? According to Sorted, itthe answer is yes. But is this reasonable?
yes
if you would rather burn to 50k from your jet can and stay alinged then the risk/reward balance wins, you loose 5 secs warning and gain some.. urmm. respite from RSI?
If you dont want the risk, then back to hi sec.
So in summary. 1)Scan, 5 sec warning, 2)Dont scan and hope for the best 50k away from the warp in alinged to get out with a jet can for decloaking the tackler (you will stil have to watch the overview though) OR 3)back to high sec and run lvl 4s with less effort/reward.
I really dont see the issue here. You scan evey 60 secs and miss the 8 sec prober, no exploit or trick in getting you from 99au or using a civ shield booster coupled with a tin foil hat to bust ur mission. You just dont scan fast enough and if you want to keep running in low sec then be aware the risk your personal skills bring to your mission boat.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:39:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:41:10 To put this a little more in perspective I'll give you the following example. If I'm running a mission near a moon for 30 minutes with a neutral in the system, I would need to hit the scan button 30*12 = 360 times! AND go through the results each and every time to spot a combat probe . This is a bit insane, don't you think?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Orivanna
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:45:00 -
[60]
So let me get this straight.
There are some of you who are SUPPORTING spamming a button EVERY 3 SECONDS?
Let's stand back for a second. Let's imagine for a second that this is a GAME, and not your life as you seem to be treating it.
Do you think there are any good games on the market that would allow something STUPID as sitting and pressing same button over and over again for an hour straight like a broken metronome?
Just stand back and look at how stupid the idea sounds.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:49:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 18:49:59
Originally by: Orivanna There are some of you who are SUPPORTING spamming a button EVERY 3 SECONDS?
You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:51:00 -
[62]
Spamming the scan button every 3 seconds is possible, but after 2 or 3 hours every time you need to, in a system with multiple hostiles jumping in/out every 5-10 minutes, it can quickly begin to hurt your wrist/fingers, all the while activating/deactivating your guns, tank, moving to gates, opening mission cans, aligning when not moving to gates, all while constantly moving the curser to the scan button, hitting it, skimming results, hitting it again...
Physically possible? Yes. Physically endurable? No. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:51:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:52:57
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
And how is a cloaked cov ops probing for mission runners not 100% safe?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Exlegion
And how is a cloaked cov ops probing for mission runners not 100% safe?
I trust you are joking. The risk obviously lies in the encounter that ensues when the probing completes...
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:54:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:41:10 To put this a little more in perspective I'll give you the following example. If I'm running a mission near a moon for 30 minutes with a neutral in the system, I would need to hit the scan button 30*12 = 360 times! AND go through the results each and every time to spot a combat probe . This is a bit insane, don't you think?
If you did it. IF you did it (which you havent) AND you are 50k from the warp in point can. HOW would anyone get you?
If you want immunity then this seems sound. You get lazy and the gankers get an OPPORUNITY, you dont just insta blow up.
choice is yours, 99.9% chance of not getting killed you put in the effort. sounds fine to me. So in summary if a low sec runner uses the tools availble he is 99% immune. BUT you want that immunty with much less effort? yes?
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:54:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 18:49:59
Originally by: Orivanna There are some of you who are SUPPORTING spamming a button EVERY 3 SECONDS?
You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
Spamming the button does not make you 100% safe. You forget; People don't use permarun settups in lowsec. They use agile settups (Or should be). They have to dock, and warp from gates/stations. They have abandon missions or wait out hours at a time as soon as some pirates get a bookmark to the mission site.
If you catching targets relies 100% on the fast-scan technique, then you sir are a truly abysmal PvPer. You're almost as bad as you are trying to make lowsec explorers/missioners who actually use the scanning function look. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:55:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:52:57
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
And how is a cloaked cov ops probing for mission runners not 100% safe?
Gas clouds, Jet cans, smartbomber traps
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:57:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Blane Xero Spamming the button does not make you 100% safe. You forget; People don't use permarun settups in lowsec. They use agile settups (Or should be). They have to dock, and warp from gates/stations. They have abandon missions or wait out hours at a time as soon as some pirates get a bookmark to the mission site.
If you catching targets relies 100% on the fast-scan technique, then you sir are a truly abysmal PvPer. You're almost as bad as you are trying to make lowsec explorers/missioners who actually use the scanning function look.
I don't. In fact, I don't even tend to probe mission runners at all. I am merely an advocate of promoting PvP, non-consentual or otherwise. I propose the risk stays, but the reward is increased.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
|
Posted - 2009.07.05 18:59:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus I propose the risk stays, but the reward is increased.
most intelligent comment in the thread tbfh.
Off home. Enjoy the debate
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:59:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 18:52:57
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You don't understand. You are not meant to press the button every 3 seconds, because you are not meant to be entirely safe in EVE.
And how is a cloaked cov ops probing for mission runners not 100% safe?
Gas clouds - No longer decloak people, nor prevent cloaking.
Jet cans - Prevents cloaking, but does not decloak. (though, there is a vague doubt in my mind that says this was changed with the cloaked ships decloaking cloaked ships, but i believe not) Oh and also, not all ships exit an accel gate in the same 2km sphere, its more like 7-10km.
smartbomber traps - Only conceivable threat and even than said traps would still require backup with them, in which case you should know its a trap in advance.
_____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.05 19:04:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 19:05:01
Originally by: Blane Xero Jet cans - Prevents cloaking, but does not decloak. (though, there is a vague doubt in my mind that says this was changed with the cloaked ships decloaking cloaked ships, but i believe not) Oh and also, not all ships exit an accel gate in the same 2km sphere, its more like 7-10km.
Jet cans decloak, as do cloaked ships. Either way, this is besides the point; again, I am sure you realize that the risk in probing down mission runners lies in the encounter that ensues once it completes.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.05 19:44:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 05/07/2009 19:46:45 Back to highsec with you if you dont like it - simple as that - Bye!
Que someone talking about predators and herds of gazelle:
It was bad enough when exlegion was running missions in highsec and whining about the dangers to him there (fyi he was one of the main whiners about wardecs). Now hes in lowsec whining. (o)
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.05 19:45:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 19:05:01
Originally by: Blane Xero Jet cans - Prevents cloaking, but does not decloak. (though, there is a vague doubt in my mind that says this was changed with the cloaked ships decloaking cloaked ships, but i believe not) Oh and also, not all ships exit an accel gate in the same 2km sphere, its more like 7-10km.
Jet cans decloak, as do cloaked ships. Either way, this is besides the point; again, I am sure you realize that the risk in probing down mission runners lies in the encounter that ensues once it completes.
Your point is entirely pertinent but also of note is the toxic gas clouds in missions blow your prober out of the sky before you have time to warp out.
SKUNK (o)
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:17:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 23:23:07 Again, aligning and moving 50,000 meters away from warp-in point is almost a moot point once my mission location has been compromised. I have no problems jetting a can at warp-in and drifting away. But once my mission location has been pinpointed my profits drop to zero as it now becomes a waiting game on who gets bored first, predator or prey. And my mission's on the clock. They're not. I've had to default on a couple of missions already because the pirates weren't even willing to accept "ransom" to let me complete it, even after I warned them I'd be defaulting.
All I ask CCP is to check this out as it's just plain insanity. If it's something they knew would happen or they're happy with the way it's turned out then end of story, plain and simple. Could CCP atleast comment whether they're aware of this?
And what's with all the hate from ex-Privateers? Come on guys. 2006 has long passed, yet the hate still fills your hearts. Let it go. It feel like an ex-Privateer Convention in here .
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
|
Posted - 2009.07.05 23:21:00 -
[75]
I usually side with the pirates and take the, "quit whining and actually play the game" stance when stuff like this comes up. But get a grip, guys. Having to hit a button every 5 seconds is a bit moronic. You can't seriously think that is a good idea for a game. Risk Repetitive Motion injuries if you want to be in lowsec. Uh... Seriously?
The balance lies somewhere in how often that scan button has to be clicked. Sounds a bit on the broke side to me.
----
Thus ev'ry kind their pleasure find, The savage and the tender; Some social join, and leagues combine; Some solitary wander. ~ Robert Burns |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
|
Posted - 2009.07.05 23:27:00 -
[76]
Currently you have to scan every 5 secs, move 50k, and drop a can and you can cut your loss chance to minimal, BUT you want it back to scanning to every minute or two so while your mission running you need to put less effort in. Those nasty pirates can still bust your site either way (so your OP is pointless) and keep you from completing anyways. So what you want (from your last post) is immunity in lowsec so you dont have to comprimise isk per hour or default on mission.
Summary, you want no risk with no effort, and max isk/hour in low sec.
I have an answer! JOIN AN NPC CORP AND GO BACK TO HI SEC.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:30:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 23:31:37
Originally by: Roy Batty68 I usually side with the pirates and take the, "quit whining and actually play the game" stance when stuff like this comes up. But get a grip, guys. Having to hit a button every 5 seconds is a bit moronic. You can't seriously think that is a good idea for a game. Risk Repetitive Motion injuries if you want to be in lowsec. Uh... Seriously?
The balance lies somewhere in how often that scan button has to be clicked. Sounds a bit on the broke side to me.
If he does it right, and drops a can, stays alinged 50k from warp in there is such a small remote chance he can be caught its offensive. Human lazyness/error is the only chance mission busters have.
If he wants to be lazy he has to admit the risk. if you want it so its EASIER to avoid the gank decrease the reward, OR inscreas the reward and let us warp to zero on the target rather than the gate. seems balanced at the moment, but re balancing is cool. Keep the scales in the middle though.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:35:00 -
[78]
Sorted,
You honestly expect someone to smash the scan button every 5 seconds for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, or however long the mission is just to mission in low sec? Are you being sarcastic or are you serious? Seriously, have you ever attempted in running a mission in low sec at all?
By the way, are you and Le Skunk the same player?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:37:00 -
[79]
So I'm lazy because I think smashing a button every 5 seconds and having to sort through the results is insane? Just. Wow.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar THE C0RP
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Posted - 2009.07.05 23:51:00 -
[80]
Thread is now filled with boohoo.
Exact same whining that prevents local from being removed.
Snore.
Next whinge?
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.06 01:05:00 -
[81]
The risk lowsec runners take is losing a hefty amount of standings for defaulting on missions. PvPers are not held to a static area to do what they want; Mission runners are. Once the mission is compromised... THATS IT. Unless they leave, you cannot continue with the mission, will probably lose the time bonus and worst case scenario you're going to have to default that particular mission.
They risk getting caught at gates, warping away from the station, warping from gates to mission sites, and even mashing spam every 5-10sec they still risk being probed out.
We bring more people with us and split the profits? Highsec is more profitable, less hassle and more "Jump straight into it" instead of waiting for gang. Low sec mission runers / complexers are the few who accept the risks, take the losses, and move on. However when you get trapped / die because you failed to micromanage scanner + tank + guns + movement + watch local all while scanning every 5 seconds minimum, an auto scan becomes desired because at least when you get caught out your hand isnt dead from the Mouse-on-Button action between the scan button and your curser.
Buff lowsec missions/exploration, Fix the directional scanner to be something other than a directional spammer, and i'll shut up. I wont ask you to make it harder to catch me, it just means my arm isnt dead before the mission is over. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2009.07.06 02:42:00 -
[82]
If you want to do missions in low sec, with less risk then maybe try and control the system that you do missions in or let your corpmates defend you while you do it.
If you can't do those and you are simply using this thread as a way to covertly get CCP to listen to you, then perhaps mission running in low sec is not for you. Maybe post your suggestions in the Features and Ideas Discussion and/or Assembly Hall for CCP and the CSM to look over. Your thoughts will probably be more appreciated there.
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Olleybear
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.06 03:34:00 -
[83]
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Exlegion.
I currently live in 0.0 and used to be a low sec mission runner. Low sec mission running is more dangerous than belt ratting and plexing in 0.0.
Exlegion: Join a large 0.0 alliance and get out of low-sec. Trying to run missions in low sec to make isk has a greater risk than ratting and plexing in 0.0. You will be happier, make more isk, and be safer by going to a large 0.0 alliance. To hell with low sec and the ganking.
I stopped running missions in low sec long ago. Even before the latest changes to make scanning mission runners easier.
Scanning someone down in a mission is not pvp. Its ganking. Ganking is boring to a pvper. I am a pvper. I put myself in lower end ships than my target to try and figure out how to kill them and get that spectacular, WTF?!?! moment to show up on their face when I do succeed in killing them.
Low-sec has very few targets because running missions/ratting is more dangerous than doing the same thing in 0.0. Make running missions safer and you will get more mission runners in low sec. More mission runners in low sec = more targets undocking and jumping through gates and more chances to kill. Simple.
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
Artassaut
Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated
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Posted - 2009.07.06 03:36:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Artassaut on 06/07/2009 03:36:40 How to solve:
Allow the Scan button to be hotkeyed.
Really though, EVE needs an option where you have to hit enter to start chat, and every other button becomes available to hotkey. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U. |
Orb Lati
Minmatar ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.06 04:38:00 -
[85]
I'm not sure if the solution to detection of probes is just to keep spamming directional scan faster as i would imagine there would be a server load issue if you have alot of people doing this.
One avenue that pops to mind as a solution is that CCP might wish to develop a counter probe.
A probe that could be launched by missioner which have a very small range (0.5au?)and short life (5 min?, reset once recalled) but would affect the scan probe mechanic in some why to help protect the missioner (be it a reduction of ship signatures in its AOE or increase to scan deviation).
Another simple fix could be just to require a ship to decloak to pull in its probes and invalidate a hit result when the probes are returned (so the scout has to warp to the hit first before pulling probes).
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Tasha Voronina
Caldari Caldari Navy Reserve Force
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Posted - 2009.07.06 06:13:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Orb Lati [...] Another simple fix could be just to require a ship to decloak to pull in its probes and invalidate a hit result when the probes are returned (so the scout has to warp to the hit first before pulling probes).
Forcing said ship to decloak won't do much as it'll probably be sitting outside directional scanner range anyway, thus creating another minor annoyance (as if probers don't have enough of those). Plus, you'd also have to remove the "remote bookmarking a result" mechanic if you want to force someone to warp to the result before being able to pull probes - and I'm quite sure quite a few explorers would have a lot against that convenience being removed. Also, this discussion is by now better suited for Features and Ideas, don't you think? --- Sig will be updated shortly |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 07:09:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Exlegion Sorted,
You honestly expect someone to smash the scan button every 5 seconds for 30 minutes, 60 minutes, or however long the mission is just to mission in low sec? Are you being sarcastic or are you serious? Seriously, have you ever attempted in running a mission in low sec at all?
You just don't get it, do you. You're not supposed to be 100% safe in EVE, and that's why scanning for probes every 5 seconds is physically impossible. It's working as intended.
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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2009.07.06 08:12:00 -
[88]
Dudes, you have to see that from the point of view of the mission runner as well as from the pirate.
Both should have a realistic chance to get the **** out if scanned out or to catch the target. With the current game mechanics both is possible. If you want to be 100% safe, you have to spam the damn scan button, it cant be helped. Drag the scan overview wide and align it somewhere on the side of your screen to control as much as possible on the first glance on it. Dropping a can at the entry point and staying aligned to a celestial object gives you enough time to get out if scanned.
I'd say its more difficult for the pirate to scan you down then to get out. So nothing to complain here. Besides, you dont really need to spam it every 5 seconds just because there are some ppl in the system....not everyone is automatically after you. You have been scanned out once- but how many times did you get away?
There should be some risk involved if missioning in lowsec, otherwise it wouldnt be lowsec.
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Albert O'Balsam
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Posted - 2009.07.06 08:31:00 -
[89]
IMHO - scanning for anomalies / cosmic sigs works well enough, but scanning for ships is too biased towards the person scanning and gives little chance for the victim to escape. I dont ask for much - just a few seconds more to spot the probes would make all the difference. I think game mechanics is wrong when a pilot is constantly scanning for probes every 10 seconds or so and still misses the signs.
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.06 08:38:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You just don't get it, do you. You're not supposed to be 100% safe in EVE, and that's why scanning for probes every 5 seconds is physically impossible. It's working as intended.
I think 'working as intended' is a bit of a stretch, given that the scanning system was designed ages ago and hasn't taken Apocrypha changes into account at all. As far as I know, devs have commented that a rewamp of the directional scanner is something that has been simmering.
Personally I do low-sec exploration as it has a good balance between income and not being bored out of my mind. I have had a few run ins with the local shady types, but so far have come out on top. I thought I was being careful, but this thread has been enlightening, and if I don't get more cautious, I am probably going to get blown out of the water pretty soon.
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MystLynx
Gallente Ships R Us
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Posted - 2009.07.06 09:19:00 -
[91]
WOW thata way
so you cant do sometthing most of us have been doing..... be it PVE, pirates, pirate hunting, gate camp busting.. etc..... we still scan to see whats incoming.. big tip here you dont have to really start scanning until you see someone enter local...... ^ that combined with what everyone is telling you that can help you should be more than enough.. so either your ignorant or just plain stubborn and want it your way... or nothing im kinda considering your a mixture.
my .02 isk
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.06 09:30:00 -
[92]
Originally by: MystLynx WOW thata way
so you cant do sometthing most of us have been doing..... be it PVE, pirates, pirate hunting, gate camp busting.. etc..... we still scan to see whats incoming.. big tip here you dont have to really start scanning until you see someone enter local...... ^ that combined with what everyone is telling you that can help you should be more than enough.. so either your ignorant or just plain stubborn and want it your way... or nothing im kinda considering your a mixture.
my .02 isk
What is this? You just felt like adding a generic rant on carebears?
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.06 09:30:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
I don't understand how this logic can make sense to anyone. You're advocating that low-sec becomes (even) safer and argue that it will contribute to PvP. I presume you understand the dilemma.
If by becoming safer more people enter low sec, then there are more targets and so more PvP.
My view on this is that if it is as easy to find someone in a mission deadspace as it is to find them in an asteroid belt then the low sec mission hubs will become as deserted as the low sec belts.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 09:41:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Banana Torres If by becoming safer more people enter low sec, then there are more targets and so more PvP.
...
Okay, let me spell it out for you; low-sec becoming an (even) safer place isn't going to contribute to PvP. Having more targets is all fine and dandy, but if you can never get to those targets it's a moot point.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:14:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/07/2009 10:16:15 Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/07/2009 10:14:12
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 23:23:07 Again, aligning and moving 50,000 meters away from warp-in point is almost a moot point once my mission location has been compromised. I have no problems jetting a can at warp-in and drifting away. But once my mission location has been pinpointed my profits drop to zero as it now becomes a waiting game on who gets bored first, predator or prey. And my mission's on the clock. They're not. I've had to default on a couple of missions already because the pirates weren't even willing to accept "ransom" to let me complete it, even after I warned them I'd be defaulting.
All I ask CCP is to check this out as it's just plain insanity. If it's something they knew would happen or they're happy with the way it's turned out then end of story, plain and simple. Could CCP atleast comment whether they're aware of this?
And what's with all the hate from ex-Privateers? Come on guys. 2006 has long passed, yet the hate still fills your hearts. Let it go. It feel like an ex-Privateer Convention in here .
1) OPS original point - Hitting scan every 5 seconds to ensure I am safe in lowsec is unreasonable. Pretty good point.. but for those that know him - not what he is really talking about... which is:
NOW WE HAVE HIM COMPLAINING
2) OPS current point - "once my mission location has been pinpointed my profits drop to zero " with all the safety measures pointed out to him being "almost a moot point"
Note the total switch? Hes changed from his original sham and semi reasonable first point about repetative game mechanics, into his true meaning - he dosent want anything getting in the way of his greed driven relentless isk drive.
He is not worried about getting his ship out of a mission, he does this even when he does not notice the probes on scan (see OP) so the 5 seconds scan is irrelevant.
He just dosent like being to scared to go back into the mission and handing it in.
Im serious when i say High sec would solve your problems (o)
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:22:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Originally by: Banana Torres If by becoming safer more people enter low sec, then there are more targets and so more PvP.
...
Okay, let me spell it out for you; low-sec becoming an (even) safer place isn't going to contribute to PvP. Having more targets is all fine and dandy, but if you can never get to those targets it's a moot point.
Aye this logic does baffle me somewhat
100 people passing through lowsec - 10% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights 1000 people passing through loswec - 1% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights
Net result
10 fights
(o)
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:28:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Originally by: Banana Torres If by becoming safer more people enter low sec, then there are more targets and so more PvP.
...
Okay, let me spell it out for you; low-sec becoming an (even) safer place isn't going to contribute to PvP. Having more targets is all fine and dandy, but if you can never get to those targets it's a moot point.
Aye this logic does baffle me somewhat
100 people passing through lowsec - 10% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights 1000 people passing through loswec - 1% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights
Net result
10 fights
Don't the chances of a PVP encounter go UP and not down with more people?
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:28:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Originally by: Banana Torres If by becoming safer more people enter low sec, then there are more targets and so more PvP.
Okay, let me spell it out for you; low-sec becoming an (even) safer place isn't going to contribute to PvP. Having more targets is all fine and dandy, but if you can never get to those targets it's a moot point.
I did not say make low sec 100% safe. Note I used, and you so kindly quoted, safer.
You are correct if you are 100% safe in low sec then there will be no PvP. However if all mission runners stay in high sec cause they make more ISK/hour then will again be no PvP.
It is a balance thing and, like all such issues in Eve, I leave it to the devs to decide were the want to set the balance.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:30:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 06/07/2009 10:32:18
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Aye this logic does baffle me somewhat
100 people passing through lowsec - 10% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights 1000 people passing through loswec - 1% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights
Net result
10 fights
Don't the chances of a PVP encounter go UP and not down with more people?
You, sir, are an idiot.
Quote: It is a balance thing and, like all such issues in Eve, I leave it to the devs to decide were the want to set the balance.
I repeat myself on this point, but I propose the balance is set by increasing the reward, not lowering the risk.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:34:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/07/2009 10:35:03
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Originally by: Banana Torres If by becoming safer more people enter low sec, then there are more targets and so more PvP.
...
Okay, let me spell it out for you; low-sec becoming an (even) safer place isn't going to contribute to PvP. Having more targets is all fine and dandy, but if you can never get to those targets it's a moot point.
Aye this logic does baffle me somewhat
100 people passing through lowsec - 10% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights 1000 people passing through loswec - 1% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights
Net result
10 fights
Don't the chances of a PVP encounter go UP and not down with more people?
The argument is
1) Making lowsec safer (by various measures such as: increasing align times, nerfing HICs, making missions more difficult to probe out, boosting sentry guns etc) will increase traffic to lowsec as it becomes less likely you will be tackled and lose your ship.
2)If it is less likely you will be tackled and lose your ship - it follows that there will be less chance of you being tackled - and pvp occuring.
So we have (for the sake of argument) ten times more traffic moving around lowsec. But it is 10 times harder to tackle them to force a pvp encounter in the first place.
(o)
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:34:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Le Skunk
100 people passing through lowsec - 10% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights 1000 people passing through loswec - 1% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights
0 people passing through lowsec - 100% chance of a pvp encounter = 0 fights
When you have dicontinuties like this, it is a good indication that the data you are working from is flawed.
My hunch is that if you have a 1000 people in low sec then a number of them are going to be useless, so while it may be harder to catch the good ones, you will feed well to the useless ones.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:40:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Le Skunk
100 people passing through lowsec - 10% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights 1000 people passing through loswec - 1% chance of a pvp encounter = 10 fights
0 people passing through lowsec - 100% chance of a pvp encounter = 0 fights
When you have dicontinuties like this, it is a good indication that the data you are working from is flawed.
My hunch is that if you have a 1000 people in low sec then a number of them are going to be useless, so while it may be harder to catch the good ones, you will feed well to the useless ones.
1 people passing through lowsec - 100% chance of a pvp encounter = 1 fights
Would be the correct extreme. Fairly irrelevant point though.
And you think catching and bbqing the odd 3 month old noob in a drake, whilst experienced players fly wily nilly without being catch able - would be good for lowsec pvp?
(o)
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Joe
Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:42:00 -
[103]
If a 'feature' such as scanning for probes isn't usefull or effecitve, then it's no longer a 'feature', but a 'gimick'.
Personally i think scan times need to be quadroupled, theres no reason for them to be as short as they are (allthough obviousy the old system was too slow, even with maxed skills).
Yes i PVE, Yes i use low sec, and i'm probably biased, but no more biased than all the PKs and their rhetoric im reading in here
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:43:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus I repeat myself on this point, but I propose the balance is set by increasing the reward, not lowering the risk.
Would it be possible to increase the reward in low sec enough so that it does not become greater than the rewards from 0.0?
Also, dont use the ad hominem argument it is called a logical fallacy for a reason.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:46:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You, sir, are an idiot.
And you sir, are not of Victorian age!
Originally by: Le Skunk So we have (for the sake of argument) ten times more traffic moving around lowsec. But it is 10 times harder to tackle them to force a pvp encounter in the first place
Yeah, that would work if the ratio of new people vs ratio of lost ships were somehow linked. People don't go to 0.0 because of the chance to lose a ship, not because there's a X% chance to do so.
Balance has nothing to do with it though, balance is simply this; same rules.
It's not some complicated mathematical problem or a issue that takes months and months of research.
Keep things fair by keeping things the same for all.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:49:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Would it be possible to increase the reward in low sec enough so that it does not become greater than the rewards from 0.0?
Sure.
Originally by: Banana Torres Also, dont use the ad hominem argument it is called a logical fallacy for a reason.
I don't follow. "You, sir, are an idiot" seems an appropriate response to someone who either fails to understand a very simple point or even read it altogether.
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:53:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 06/07/2009 10:54:36
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Originally by: Banana Torres
Would it be possible to increase the reward in low sec enough so that it does not become greater than the rewards from 0.0?
Sure.
Sure is a simple answer, but have you thought about what it means?
It's not just a bonus to those who go there every now and then, but also a bonus for the people living there 24/7.
More rewards, more ships, bigger and faster and suddenly, they can handle the extra people who come after the bigger reward and we're at the same point again.
Originally by: Caelum Dominus I don't follow. "You, sir, are an idiot" seems an appropriate response to someone who either fails to understand a very simple point or even read it altogether.
That could be if i was talking to you.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:54:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
I don't follow. "You, sir, are an idiot" seems an appropriate response to someone who either fails to understand a very simple point or even read it altogether.
Maybe in the children's playground. Silence is my usual response. And with that I leave this thread.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 10:58:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 06/07/2009 11:02:08 Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 06/07/2009 11:00:28
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
I don't follow. "You, sir, are an idiot" seems an appropriate response to someone who either fails to understand a very simple point or even read it altogether.
Maybe in the children's playground. Silence is my usual response. And with that I leave this thread.
Welcome to the internet. ;)
Originally by: Banana Torres Sure is a simple answer, but have you thought about what it means?
It's not just a bonus to those who go there every now and then, but also a bonus for the people living there 24/7.
More rewards, more ships, bigger and faster and suddenly, they can handle the extra people who come after the bigger reward and we're at the same point again.
I'm not sure I understand. I'm arguing that increasing the reward for doing missions, ratting or whathaveyou in low-sec would generate an incentive to come here. As it is, doing missions in high-sec is vastly superior income to nearly anything low-sec can offer unless you have adequate protection and/or wits, and I think that should be changed. This has to do with the balance of income in a "high-sec vs low-sec" scenario, not bigger and faster ships or whatever it is you're trying to convey. :)
If I am missing your point, please elaborate.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.06 11:03:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/07/2009 11:05:47
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Keep things fair by keeping things the same for all.
Indeed - If i choose to go run missions in lowsec, to grub a few extra LP and isk into my wallet, I will be operating under the same rules as everyone else.
And if exlegion chooses to stop mission running and start mission busting, then he will suffer the same frustrations (targets spoting probes and warping out, gas clouds pwning your cov ops, 80km slowboats from gate to gate in a mission, being uncloaked by wrecks and targeting warping off, hours spent waiting in a system for a target to undock, landing in the mission and seeing it disapear around you as the pilot hands it in, warping through a gate and the enemy is 100km away)and joys (the odd maurauder kill) as we have.
Me personaly, I would run missions in high sec, i think low sec mission runners are blinded by greed. I detest low sec mission runners who come to lowsec knowing the rules of the game, then start whining about them. S****of the game - worse then isk farmers, or noob can baiters.
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Yeah, that would work if the ratio of new people vs ratio of lost ships were somehow linked. People don't go to 0.0 because of the chance to lose a ship, not because there's a X% chance to do so.
Well in the "safer lowsec scenario" the pilots who dont go to 0.0 because of a "chance" of getting popped - aint coming to lowsec due to the "chance"! of getting popped.
So in your scenario - it will be harder to catch anything in lowsec, but the majority of people still wont come. End result for lowsec pvp = death. (o)
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.07.06 11:11:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 06/07/2009 11:11:59
Originally by: Caelum Dominus I'm not sure I understand. I'm arguing that increasing the reward for doing missions, ratting or whathaveyou in low-sec would generate an incentive to come here. As it is, doing missions in high-sec is vastly superior income to nearly anything low-sec can offer unless you have adequate protection and/or wits, and I think that should be changed. This has to do with the balance of income in a "high-sec vs low-sec" scenario, not bigger and faster ships or whatever it is you're trying to convey. :)
If I am missing your point, please elaborate.
The point i tried to make is that if you simply increase the reward in lowsec, it increases the income of the "bad people" there too, giving them better equipment to deal with the people who come there.
So in that way, decreasing risk is the better option as it only effects the people going there without boosting the "bad people". But i know, it's a bit off the point.
I agree that there's little point to go to lowsec at the moment as i get better risk vs reward from high-sec(personally that is). What i suggest is some form of "risk vs reward" slider option, like they had in anarchy online. More risk, lower sec, more reward.
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
Yeah, that would work if the ratio of new people vs ratio of lost ships were somehow linked. People don't go to 0.0 because of the chance to lose a ship, not because there's a X% chance to do so.
Well in the "safer lowsec scenario" the pilots who dont go to 0.0 because of a "chance" of getting popped - aint coming to lowsec due to the "chance"! of getting popped.
So in your scenario - it will be harder to catch anything in lowsec, but the majority of people still wont come. End result for lowsec pvp = death.
Fair point. Those who don't want to go to lowsec wouldn't still go, even if there was a titan pooping magical portal there.
Or the reward would have to be so much bigger that it would in fact kill the balance more.
I don't have a good solution it seems, not yet anyway.
I'll graciously admit that i need to step ack and think things through more
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 11:18:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 06/07/2009 11:21:47 Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 06/07/2009 11:21:05
Quote: The point i tried to make is that if you simply increase the reward in lowsec, it increases the income of the "bad people" there too, giving them better equipment to deal with the people who come there.
So in that way, decreasing risk is the better option as it only effects the people going there without boosting the "bad people". But i know, it's a bit off the point.
This is a fair point, but I still maintain that increasing the reward is the way to go. The risk is already low and should stay.
Originally by: Sheriff Jones What i suggest is some form of "risk vs reward" slider option, like they had in anarchy online. More risk, lower sec, more reward.
This already exists, albeit in a less obvious manner. Taking a battleship to do missions in low-sec is on the high end of the slider you describe, whereas killing belt NPCs in a frigate is on the low-end. ;)
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.07.06 11:21:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Originally by: Sheriff Jones What i suggest is some form of "risk vs reward" slider option, like they had in anarchy online. More risk, lower sec, more reward.
This already exists, albeit in a less obvious manner. Taking a battleship to do missions in low-sec is on the high end of the slider you describe, whereas killing NPCs in a frigate is on the low-end. ;-)
Heh, yeah i guess it does.
Though i did mean more of a concrete option, where the security status, rat amounts etc are scaled to match the reward and it would be tied to the ship you plan to run it with.
Would balance the income, risk vs reward etc very nicely.
If someone wants the lore to match it, just remove the "big missions" from low reward scale and make the low reward stuff less "appealing".
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.06 12:18:00 -
[114]
I think we're all in agreement that low sec is not to become 100% safe. I have not read of anyone advocating for such a change. Low sec should remain being about only the strongest, fittest, and smartest thriving in such hostile environment. And I think we all agree there needs to be a fair balance between predator and prey. My concern is that prey has recently lost a valuable tool, probably the most valuable, which has shifted this balance greatly toward the predator's end. We have to face the fact that prey is mostly driven into low sec for the riches to be found there. But if profits are compromised below a certain point it no longer becomes a driving force binding the prey to low sec.
I can no longer take a chance at continuing a mission when even just one neutral sits in my system because my onboard scanner has the greater probability of failing me. IÆm tempted in taking OlleybearÆs advice and begin the plan to move to 0.0. I shall see what CCPÆs stance is on the issue.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2009.07.06 12:23:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Exlegion I think we're all in agreement that low sec is not to become 100% safe. I have not read of anyone advocating for such a change. Low sec should remain being about only the strongest, fittest, and smartest thriving in such hostile environment.
Actually i think that should be reserved for nulsec, while lowsec should be a stepping stone to said, nulsec.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.06 12:42:00 -
[116]
Does anyone have an idea for a game mechanic that allows pirates a chance to catch missionrunners/plexers but gives the mission runners a chance to detect pirates, without repetitive click every 5 seconds and scroll through several pages of unfiltered scan results?
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Joe
Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 13:06:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Nareg Maxence Does anyone have an idea for a game mechanic that allows pirates a chance to catch missionrunners/plexers but gives the mission runners a chance to detect pirates, without repetitive click every 5 seconds and scroll through several pages of unfiltered scan results?
Yes, but it got lost amongst petty bickering.
Originally by: lost in the mess If a 'feature' such as scanning for probes isn't usefull or effecitve, then it's no longer a 'feature', but a 'gimick'.
Personally i think scan times need to be Quadroupled, theres no reason for them to be as short as they are (allthough obviousy the old system was too slow, even with maxed skills).
Yes i PVE, Yes i use low sec, and i'm probably biased, but no more biased than all the PKs and their rhetoric im reading in here
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Iomar Uisdean
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.06 13:18:00 -
[118]
amusing thread....
Is it me, or does it seem that the folk in this thread who keep telling low sec mission runners to go back to hisec are the very same folk who keep advocating for level 4 missions to be moved to low sec?
Ok, so which is it? Mission in hi sec, where you're reasonably "safe", so long you don't do anything truly stupid? Or mission in low sec, where safety is (and probably should be) a bit more of a concern?
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2009.07.06 13:24:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Exlegion Greetings fellow pilots,
Lately I've been noticing an increasing trend where I am being probed down without me ever seing combat probes on my on-board scanner (overview settings unchecked, 360 degrees, max scanning range, objects rearranged by type, etc). I haven't been "caught" yet as I am always aligned. I am also extremely paranoid in low security space. I hit the scan button every 30 to 60 seconds, more or less. I always search for combat, sisters combat, and deep space probes. This week alone I was scanned down by two different groups of pirates on two different missions both of which managed to intrude without me ever detecting a single probe!
My concern is probing players as it is has become extremely easy after the last major patch. Add this new "feature" (new at least to me) and probing down mission runners in low security space has become a golden egg which can/will quickly be 'exploited' to a point that will negatively impact low security space and all its inhabitants, including pirates themselves. IÆve had to revoke missions once they become compromised. My efficiency and profits are quickly declining and high security is becoming more and more lucrative, even though the rewards are less.
I think I have figured out on why the probes are being missed by my on-board scanner but would like someone to post the exact procedures, if it isnÆt too much to ask, on how it is done. Also, I would like to ask CCP if this is an unforeseen consequence due to the changes made to the probing system. If it is not an oversight (it is intended), would this not further desolate low security space from ôpreyö? Opinions, flames, facts, and trolls all welcome.
LOL, ever heard of SISTERS probes?
Best trick in the book, no one ever looks under "S" for combat probes. Stop, hammer time. |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2009.07.06 13:26:00 -
[120]
Oh and the problem isn't that low sec isn't good enough. (It is.) The problem is people are giant carebear pansies that don't want to risk anything.
It's fine the way it is. Stop, hammer time. |
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.06 13:29:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Exlegion Greetings fellow pilots,
Lately I've been noticing an increasing trend where I am being probed down without me ever seing combat probes on my on-board scanner (overview settings unchecked, 360 degrees, max scanning range, objects rearranged by type, etc). I haven't been "caught" yet as I am always aligned. I am also extremely paranoid in low security space. I hit the scan button every 30 to 60 seconds, more or less. I always search for combat, sisters combat, and deep space probes. This week alone I was scanned down by two different groups of pirates on two different missions both of which managed to intrude without me ever detecting a single probe!
My concern is probing players as it is has become extremely easy after the last major patch. Add this new "feature" (new at least to me) and probing down mission runners in low security space has become a golden egg which can/will quickly be 'exploited' to a point that will negatively impact low security space and all its inhabitants, including pirates themselves. IÆve had to revoke missions once they become compromised. My efficiency and profits are quickly declining and high security is becoming more and more lucrative, even though the rewards are less.
I think I have figured out on why the probes are being missed by my on-board scanner but would like someone to post the exact procedures, if it isnÆt too much to ask, on how it is done. Also, I would like to ask CCP if this is an unforeseen consequence due to the changes made to the probing system. If it is not an oversight (it is intended), would this not further desolate low security space from ôpreyö? Opinions, flames, facts, and trolls all welcome.
LOL, ever heard of SISTERS probes?
Best trick in the book, no one ever looks under "S" for combat probes.
See bold :)
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.06 13:34:00 -
[122]
It's really easy to stay alive in lowsec. You don't have to press the scan button all the time either as has been pointed out several times in this thread.
I've played hundreds of radar/mag and combat sites and whenever i've been caught (which happened like 2 times overall or so) it was because i was distracted by nude women in the tv and eating cold pizza.
Since apocrypha i've moved on to wormholes for the most part but it's not much different with those.
Actually i am triple-boxing those sites while watching x-files/inet **** and i still don't get caught. Not that it would matter one bit given i've made about 4-5billion since apocrypha launch alone. And thats with rather casual playing - a few wormholes and 6/10 and maybe averaging 1 exploration evening a week.
When i was actually playing eve a lot i was clearing sites by the dozens and pirates never were a real issue.
Maybe its because i used to pvp a lot and know the options of the hunter better than the average hisec-dweller but some of the people here seem to be outright deceptive. Either they really don't know better (because they never left hisec) or they just want to make their profession more worthwile. A profession just to state the ultra-obvious they picked up in the first place - probably because it is profitable and or fun.
Not that i would mind making lowsec more profitable - it would be a perfect compromise. You don't die less but you make more money so what would be the deal?
However i am sure ryan d/torfifrans etc. already have something in the makes. So bears rejoice two years from now the worst pvp you'll be exposed to is other players wearing cooler clothing than you at the wis-coffeshop. And dinosaurs like me and the other guys here advocating real player competition in all forms will be relegated to taking a **** in your espresso when you're looking the other way.
You guys managed to systematically deconstruct the game for the three years i've been playing and i don't see why you would stop just now. You're nearly "there".
Admittedly my first rant ever but damn this felt good. --
Originally by: Jasper Dark
I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 14:31:00 -
[123]
I approve of the above rant.
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ollobrains
THORN Syndicate Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.07.06 15:18:00 -
[124]
ah so as it is the ninja salvagers and pirates in low sec are gunna have a field day. Same goes for wormhole scanners where u cant be seen in local. Expect a nerf within a week or two once the bears start a complaining.
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.06 15:23:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
LOL, ever heard of SISTERS probes?
Best trick in the book, no one ever looks under "S" for combat probes.
Sort list by name. They are all listed as 'Scanner Probe'. People who say sort by Type, don't know what they are doing.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.06 15:30:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Exlegion
I can no longer take a chance at continuing a mission when even just one neutral sits in my system because my onboard scanner has the greater probability of failing me.
To be fair if a probably afk neutral pilot in system is enough to keep someone docked, they dont belong in any pvp environment, be it lowsec or 0.0. I think we can ALL agree this.
The old probing system was easier to scan down ships. CCP altered it, and now we are left with a situation where pvpers have to fiddle around moving probes in formation around the map, and bears have to hit scan more often.
Both parties lose out, but CCP get some nice graphical orbs crosshatch shennagans to show people. good luck if you decide to move to 0.0.
(o)
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 15:35:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Exlegion
I can no longer take a chance at continuing a mission when even just one neutral sits in my system because my onboard scanner has the greater probability of failing me.
To be fair if a probably afk neutral pilot in system is enough to keep someone docked, they dont belong in any pvp environment, be it lowsec or 0.0. I think we can ALL agree this.
The old probing system was easier to scan down ships. CCP altered it, and now we are left with a situation where pvpers have to fiddle around moving probes in formation around the map, and bears have to hit scan more often.
Both parties lose out, but CCP get some nice graphical orbs crosshatch shennagans to show people. good luck if you decide to move to 0.0.
Now, now... I love the new probing system for many reasons. It's faster (if you know your way around it) and you can insta-probe anyone in a safespot 300-400km off gates.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.06 15:49:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Exlegion on 06/07/2009 15:54:31
Originally by: Nareg Maxence People who say sort by Type, don't know what they are doing.
The reason I rather sort by type is so that I can keep an eye out on ships zooming near my mission location. And some tricksters like to name their ships "Small Guristas Wreck" and such . Sorting by type allows me to find things quicker. This is, of course, my preference and YMMV. I've become quite efficient at quickly going through pages of useless finds and is not a deal breaking issue (although it could use an overhaul). It's rather the having to go through it every 5 seconds or so that is the problem, at least to me.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.06 16:10:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Le Skunk To be fair if a probably afk neutral pilot in system is enough to keep someone docked...
This philosophy is what got me killed in low sec numerous times during my noob years. If it's "probably" just an AFK neutral pilot, it's most likely probing me down to kill me. Unfortunately for me now I can no longer rely on my onboard scanner to give me useful information.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Liberi Fatalius Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 16:34:00 -
[130]
Getting a hit on someone in a mission pocket without them seeing you coming is anything but easy in most cases (since missions can spawn 10AU from any celestial, so it'd take even the fastest probers a minute or so to pin you down)
If for some reason probes aren't appearing on scan, then yes that is bugged but I haven't seen this myself.
- Contagious - |
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.06 16:43:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/07/2009 16:43:43
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Le Skunk To be fair if a probably afk neutral pilot in system is enough to keep someone docked...
This philosophy is what got me killed in low sec numerous times during my noob years. If it's "probably" just an AFK neutral pilot, it's most likely probing me down to kill me. Unfortunately for me now I can no longer rely on my onboard scanner to give me useful information.
If a neutral in system was enough for me not to undock, I would be trapped in station roughly 60% of the time - gnashing my teeth and wringing my hands.
In reality - if you want to get anything done, you gotta take the risk. Like a mission runner, I have to take safety precautions in my SS,
aligning to a gate at full speed, keeping an eye on scan, keeping an eye on neighbouring systems, checking the neutrals employment history and battleclinic stats switching SS occasional having an orbiting falcon in the SS. occasional switching to a cheaper ship
The scanner has a role in these safety precautions, but it is not an "I win" button. as you want it to be
I would advise you to asses the likelyhood of a threat, and switch to a cheap insured raven to complete your missions where you feel the threat is high enough.
If your of the mentality where a unknown pilot in local completely shuts you down you should not be in lowsec.
I note its taken you SIX MONTHS to realize the scan mechanics have changed. Six months where you have been running missions happily and have never been killed. Despite the big scary neutral trade alts in system.
Youve been given all the advice you need in this thread about how to stay alive, and you freely admit to having escaped destruction - I suspect your just trolling for a bear vs pirate flamewar which is pathetic.
(o)
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.06 18:02:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 05/07/2009 23:47:14 So I'm lazy because I think smashing a button every 5 seconds and having to sort through the results is insane? Just. Wow.
Come on, my friend. If this stays this way it will further desolate low security space from targets. You may not be concerned with this but eventually even pirates will start feeling the impact. This just isn't good for business. I admit I could be wrong on this. But I can't be that way off.
Your wrong on this. Atm AS I HAVE SAID 3 TIMES ALREADY YET YOU STILL IGNORE "human error or lazyness is the only window of opportunity for tackling you in your mission". If that is reduced/removed it doesnt matter if lowsec fills with mission runners they will still be safe with zero effort. Atm those who want to take the risk put in the work and accept that less attention/work towards their own saftey increases the risk.
Its the risk/reward at work - you want the low sec missions, work at your scanning/safety or assume the risk for your slackness.
you SHOULD be levvying for increased low sec mission rewards - NOT for added easy mode saftey features. Like I said. BALANCE - remove the 8 sec need for scanning BUT let the prober land on your face? hows that - less effort for you, stay alined scan every 60 secs BUT if you get lazy the prober is on top of you? sound ok? you can come back with "BUT BUT.. BUT Its not fair I have to scan at all!"
I REALY think you should be back in hisec in an NPC corp.
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Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.07.06 18:36:00 -
[133]
Did you see any core probes? You did realize that people can probe ships with these, right?
Welcome to low-sec. That's how things roll here.
-Karlemnge My sig don't fracking work. |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.06 18:42:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Karlemgne Did you see any core probes? You did realize that people can probe ships with these, right?
Welcome to low-sec. That's how things roll here.
-Karlemnge
He didnt see any probes. He doesnt scan often enough.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.06 18:54:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Spurty oh and as someone already mentioned, its not a single player game.
Why aren't you running in a gang with pvp support? Seems your mission running will always bring pvp to to you (It doesn't get much better than that), so get people that want to pvp in gang and second you get guests, warp em in to whoop em.
More wrecks make more prizes. These rats might even drop faction loot / t2 gear. Its WELL WORTH IT.
Are you suggesting I should have players donate their time to protect me while I run my missions? Will your own corporation do me the honor?
Why not have your own corp help you out? Unless you are in a one-man corp, you should have some corp members willing to help you. If you don't, I would suggest finding yourself a proper corp that actually gives a damn about it's members, and is willing to help them out. Keep in mind that PVP players will WELCOME a chance to get into a fight and will gladly come along with you to try and bait pirates. The fact that you would have to share some of the mission rewards (via the bounty system) with them is only icing on the cake for PVP people.
Because we _want_ people to live (and mission run) in lowsec - more people in lowsec means more trade and more PvP. However if it is seriously not cost effective to do so - and it isn't, lowsec mission pay isn't _much_ more than highsec - it won't pay for a second person - then your mission runners will go back to highsec. It's not carebearism, it's common sense.
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Slade Trillgon
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.07.06 19:29:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 06/07/2009 19:29:38
Originally by: James Lyrus
Because we _want_ people to live (and mission run) in lowsec - more people in lowsec means more trade and more PvP. However if it is seriously not cost effective to do so - and it isn't, lowsec mission pay isn't _much_ more than highsec - it won't pay for a second person - then your mission runners will go back to highsec. It's not carebearism, it's common sense.
If these individuals see as much harassment from scanner pilots and the rest of their gang as they make it out to seem, then the target rich environment would go a good ways in paying for the pvp'ers time. The rest of the compensation would probably be negotiable fairly easily if they actually see pvp consistantly.
Otherwise it is not really that big of a problem. Or is it?
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
=v= |
iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2009.07.06 20:07:00 -
[137]
@ OP: it looks like CCP made missionrunners as easy to probe as normal ships, no cosmic anomaly penalty to probing anymore. Obviously CCP wants you to move back to highsec, do missions for one of the new created level 4 agents. The new system means death for lowsec and 0.0 mission-running, the question now is not "if" but "when" they will be in your mission, and skilled probers will find you in few minutes, not enough time to complete even the medium mission, let alone the ones that take up to an hour.
Today i was probed out in like 2-3 minutes. I just started with the mission, killed my first 3 NPC ships when a gang entered in my mission spot. I was moving towards the objective, wasn't aligned to a warpout-object and wasn't aware of the danger, since there were no probes in space when i entered the mission. Ship dead, pod dead (of course they brought a bubble) etc. Usually I'm aligned and only lose all the rewards, faction-, corp- and agent standings because of aborting the mission. It makes no sense now to do missions in low- or nullsec in terms of risk-vs-reward. This probing change was either done by an amateur dev, who didn't consider all the impacts, or CCP really thinks that 0.0/lowsec missions were unbalanced and wants us to join the swarms of highsec missionrunners again.
My skills Faction Standings: Serpentis +8.02 / Angel Cartel +9.11 / Gallente Federation -9.99 |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.07.06 20:14:00 -
[138]
Originally by: iudex @ OP: it looks like CCP made missionrunners as easy to probe as normal ships, no cosmic anomaly penalty to probing anymore. Obviously CCP wants you to move back to highsec, do missions for one of the new created level 4 agents. The new system means death for lowsec and 0.0 mission-running, the question now is not "if" but "when" they will be in your mission, and skilled probers will find you in few minutes, not enough time to complete even the medium mission, let alone the ones that take up to an hour.
Today i was probed out in like 2-3 minutes. I just started with the mission, killed my first 3 NPC ships when a gang entered in my mission spot. I was moving towards the objective, wasn't aligned to a warpout-object and wasn't aware of the danger, since there were no probes in space when i entered the mission. Ship dead, pod dead (of course they brought a bubble) etc. Usually I'm aligned and only lose all the rewards, faction-, corp- and agent standings because of aborting the mission. It makes no sense now to do missions in low- or nullsec in terms of risk-vs-reward. This probing change was either done by an amateur dev, who didn't consider all the impacts, or CCP really thinks that 0.0/lowsec missions were unbalanced and wants us to join the swarms of highsec missionrunners again.
Oh just shuuuut upppppp. Stop whining and being so incompetent and you will have less of a problem being caught. -murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2009.07.06 20:27:00 -
[139]
Originally by: murder one
Oh just shuuuut upppppp. Stop whining and being so incompetent and you will have less of a problem being caught.
I'm giving player feedback and express my upset about how a feature was broken that was fine before. You on the other hand make a content- and meaningless troll post on things that exceed your experience and intelligence.
My skills Faction Standings: Serpentis +8.02 / Angel Cartel +9.11 / Gallente Federation -9.99 |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.07.06 20:42:00 -
[140]
Originally by: iudex
Originally by: murder one
Oh just shuuuut upppppp. Stop whining and being so incompetent and you will have less of a problem being caught.
I'm giving player feedback and express my upset about how a feature was broken that was fine before. You on the other hand make a content- and meaningless troll post on things that exceed your experience and intelligence.
Incorrect. Mission runners have had huge advantages for years and were coddled with all sorts of special protection from CCP. Now that has been rectified and you can't cope with the changes.
Thousands of players are able to run missions successfully in lowsec and 0.0 every day. They can figure out how to do it, it's just that you can't because you're too stupid and incompetent or just too lazy and simply don't want to apply the effort required to make it work.
There was no feature that was broken. The game went from 'super easy' to 'slightly less easy' and you don't like it. All of your posts are meaningless whines about things that exceed whatever limited experience and intelligence you might have had at some point. -murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.06 20:57:00 -
[141]
I am going to sit down in the camp where hitting scan every 5 seconds is considered to be a stupid game mechanic.
How about this? If you get hit by a scan, whether it be from a directional scan or from a scan probe, there will be an aura blinking once around your scanner button in the hud. If you open your directional scanner and take a scan, if people use the above technique, you may still not see any probes, then all you get extra is an indication that some kind of scan was done and you got hit by it, it could be just a directional scan, but you could also have ships landing on you any second.
/me dons asbestos suit
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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.07.06 21:10:00 -
[142]
Originally by: murder one Incorrect. Mission runners have had huge advantages for years and were coddled with all sorts of special protection from CCP. Now that has been rectified and you can't cope with the changes.
They didn't have an advantage. Maybe over incompetent wannabe-probers like you, but there was always a solid risk to run across probers that know what they do. If it was so easy as you say, we'd have had much more people doing lowsec and 0.0 missions compared to highsec.
Originally by: murder one
Thousands of players are able to run missions successfully in lowsec and 0.0 every day. They can figure out how to do it,...
That's a wild and incorrect guess and shows that you don't understand the problem. It is true that you can avoid being killed: be aligned and escape. But once they got your mission spot, you can't go back there safely anymore. You have to turn down the mission, lose all the rewards and receive a standing penalty. Level 4 or 5 agent require a high corp standing, the penalty at high levels of standing is quite harsh and no easy to compensate. And now they can ALWAYS find you, after they spoil some of the missions, you can't accept level 4 missions anymore because of too low agent/corp standing.
Originally by: murder one
...it's just that you can't because you're too stupid and incompetent or just too lazy ...
You must be mistaking me for your mother.
Originally by: murder one
There was no feature that was broken. The game went from 'super easy' to 'slightly less easy' and you don't like it. All of your posts are meaningless whines about things that exceed whatever limited experience and intelligence you might have had at some point.
It was balanced before, it's broken now. Compared to highsec there were only a few lowsec or 0.0 mission-runners. No one needed this nerf and no one was asking for it. Your lack of experience makes you think it was "super easy", your lack of intelligence hinders you from understanding the problem despite being given the facts above. And btw, the breaking of lowsec/0.0 mission-running was the only thing i complained about in the last months. The statement that all of my posts are whines, shows once again that you are talking about things that you have no clue about. Protip: Get your facts straight before posting and keep out of topics that exceed your intelligence.
My skills Faction Standings: Serpentis +8.02 / Angel Cartel +9.11 / Gallente Federation -9.99 |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.06 21:21:00 -
[143]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Because we _want_ people to live (and mission run) in lowsec - more people in lowsec means more trade and more PvP. However if it is seriously not cost effective to do so - and it isn't, lowsec mission pay isn't _much_ more than highsec - it won't pay for a second person - then your mission runners will go back to highsec. It's not carebearism, it's common sense.
your right!
Nerf Hisec mission rewards, BUFF LOW SEC REWARDS. done.
Keep the scanning probing as it is, or decrease the ammount people need to tap the scanner but let the mission buster land on the target at 0
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.07.06 21:32:00 -
[144]
Originally by: iudex
You must be mistaking me for your mother.
Yeah... let's get off of moms. I just got off of yours... -murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:04:00 -
[145]
Come on, man. Why can't you see that smashing a button and going through results every 5 seconds for 45 minutes is way over the top!?
To those applauding this change, how would you feel if all of a sudden to catch anything you have to spam a button 540 times and go through the displayed results 540 times every 45 minutes just to guarantee you a fight? And considering that you wouldn't be micro-managing your ship against NPC's this scenario would still be easier than having to do all of the above and mission in low sec.
This isn't laziness from our part, folks. This is insanity. And I'm willing to bet it's an oversight from CCP's part.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.07.06 22:18:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Exlegion Come on, man. Why can't you see that smashing a button and going through results every 5 seconds for 45 minutes is way over the top!?
To those applauding this change, how would you feel if all of a sudden to catch anything you have to spam a button 540 times and go through the displayed results 540 times every 45 minutes just to guarantee you a fight? And considering that you wouldn't be micro-managing your ship against NPC's this scenario would still be easier than having to do all of the above and mission in low sec.
This isn't laziness from our part, folks. This is insanity. And I'm willing to bet it's an oversight from CCP's part.
LOL.
You have so many simple, easy to use tools available to you- local being the number one offender. It's virtually impossible to catch anyone who doesn't want to be caught.
If you're still getting caught then it's because you're greedy. You insist on staying and running your mission when all indicators point to stopping what you're doing and securing your ship. It's pure greed. Plain and simple. That is how pirates kill their targets. They take advantage of a few very common traits of mission runners- greed, laziness, incompetence.
If you're clicking the scan button every five seconds then you must assume that someone is trying to hunt you down. If that's the case then why are you trying to complete your mission when the area is clearly insecure and you're probably going to get killed? The answer: you're too greedy and lazy to ensure the survivability of your ship and would rather take the chance that you can complete the mission before you're caught.
SURPRISE! You've been caught! Now who's fault is that? It's yours. The pirates are doing what they're supposed to do: cull the stupid and ineffective. You have no one to blame but yourself. Story, end of. -murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:21:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Exlegion Come on, man. Why can't you see that smashing a button and going through results every 5 seconds for 45 minutes is way over the top!?
To those applauding this change, how would you feel if all of a sudden to catch anything you have to spam a button 540 times and go through the displayed results 540 times every 45 minutes just to guarantee you a fight? And considering that you wouldn't be micro-managing your ship against NPC's this scenario would still be easier than having to do all of the above and mission in low sec.
This isn't laziness from our part, folks. This is insanity. And I'm willing to bet it's an oversight from CCP's part.
I could repeat what I said about you never being meant to be 100% safe, but you would no doubt ignore it as before. I will leave you to your ignorance.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:22:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Exlegion button 540 times and go through the displayed results 540 times every 45 minutes just to guarantee you a fight?
if it guaranteed a fight i would jump at the chance!
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:29:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Exlegion button 540 times and go through the displayed results 540 times every 45 minutes just to guarantee you a fight?
if it guaranteed a fight i would jump at the chance!
I'm sorry, but I think you are being disengenuous. Or you simply just aren't thinking about what you are asking for.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Liz Laser
Outland Research and Development The Excession Group
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:29:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Liz Laser on 06/07/2009 22:31:27 We can fly ships the size of small moons, but we can't have a computer (or crew) that regularly scans and announces the things we're interested in?
TODAY in real life, I can have a computer inform me each time that someone trades a certain stock halfway across the planet.
Imagining pilots actually doing something as tedious as spamming a button once every 3 seconds is insane. Hell, you might as well make them fire each individual charge of each of their weapons with a button push. And their shields should fall if they don't keep a shield button jammed down. And they should have to calculate each jump's fuel use by hand and then type that number in to allocate fuel for each warp.
Because all of those are JUST as stupid and just as unrealistic.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:34:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Exlegion button 540 times and go through the displayed results 540 times every 45 minutes just to guarantee you a fight?
if it guaranteed a fight i would jump at the chance!
I'm sorry, but I think you are being disengenuous. Or you simply just aren't thinking about what you are asking for.
I think you have delibertaly ignored more than 1 very valid points about balance made on multiple occasions. I have suggested balanced alternatives to the 540 clicks yet your still being evasive in commenting on them.
540 clicks and correct precatuions stops you getting ganked. I'd click 600 times to ensure I gank you (or whoever) given the chance, and you clearly have no idea how frsutraing and awkward it is to catch an attentive (read: not lazy) pilot.
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:35:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Liz Laser Edited by: Liz Laser on 06/07/2009 22:31:27 We can fly ships the size of small moons, but we can't have a computer (or crew) that regularly scans and announces the things we're interested in?
TODAY in real life, I can have a computer inform me each time that someone trades a certain stock halfway across the planet.
Imagining pilots actually doing something as tedious as spamming a button once every 3 seconds is insane. Hell, you might as well make them fire each individual charge of each of their weapons with a button push. And their shields should fall if they don't keep a shield button jammed down. And they should have to calculate each jump's fuel use by hand and then type that number in to allocate fuel for each warp.
Because all of those are JUST as stupid and just as unrealistic.
We also have sensors that are able to detect a mouse at four thousand meters distant in the middle of the desert without any discernible signature. It's just too unrealistic that we have to use probes that are so easily detected by our targets. -murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Olleybear
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:35:00 -
[153]
Once upon a time, in an area of low sec called Molden Heath, there used to be a group of guys that ran missions to make isk in relative saftey. These same guys banded together to fight pirate incursions into their space. They earned isk by mining, yes mining, in low sec belts, ratting those belts, and running missions in the low sec mission hubs. The main source of income was through missions though.
Probes used to suck really bad. You had to be on the same plane as the person you were probing in order to scan them out, and scanning out a person in a mission was very difficult. This made running missions in low sec fairly safe inside the mission itself. But undocking from stations that weren't insta-docks and jumping through gates to get to your mission and story lines were still dangerous.
At its height, this area of lowsec had 70 people in a single lowsec system. Not including the other systems around it. There were plenty of targets for the pies. Camp a station or gate and there was always some idiot who didn't even bother to look in local undocking and wapring to gates to kill.
CCP then made changes to probes so you didn't have to be on the same plane anymore, and it became easier to scan out mission runners. In fact all you had to do was send out a Ladar probe to scan out a Minmatar ship. This took all of 4 or 5 minutes and you got the ship location. There was also a little known change introduced later that aloud Recon ships to activate gates while still cloaked.
It didnt take very long before the mission runners got sick of being scanned out and losing their ships. I never lost mine. I flew a Raven with a Gisti B-Type X-Large shield booster and active Gist shield hardners. I never lost mine because I saw the risk vs reward blew chunks. This from a person that flew that Gist B-Type fit Raven into pvp and small pos bashes.
I, and most everyone else, moved our stuff back up to hi-sec. The low sec population crashed in Molden Heath and has never rebounded. Hardly anyone in those systems anymore. Hell, I have trouble finding pirates on gates down there now because there isn't much low sec activity.
Increasing the reward for low sec has already been done. There are BS back in low sec belts. Molden Heath is still deserted.
Its safer to make isk in 0.0 in a large alliance to fund my pvp than it is to do the same thing in lowsec.
Grats, you got what you wanted. Easier ganking of mission runners. Ummm, where did all the targets go?
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:45:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Sorted I think you have delibertaly ignored more than 1 very valid points about balance made on multiple occasions. I have suggested balanced alternatives to the 540 clicks yet your still being evasive in commenting on them.
540 clicks and correct precatuions stops you getting ganked. I'd click 600 times to ensure I gank you (or whoever) given the chance, and you clearly have no idea how frsutraing and awkward it is to catch an attentive (read: not lazy) pilot.
Sorted,
With neutral pilots entering and leaving low sec mission systems the onboard scanner is the most useful tool a low sec mission runner has. This tool allowed me to somewhat reliably filter immediate threats from non-immediate threats. This most valuable tool now requires me to smash it every 5 seconds for as long there is even just 1 neutral in the system. I don't know how to better explain that is is just nuts.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:46:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Olleybear
Increasing the reward for low sec has already been done. There are BS back in low sec belts. Molden Heath is still deserted.
Add a nerf to highsec level 4s, a buff to low sec missions and were on a winner..
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.06 22:54:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Jimer Lins I believe that the best solution to this would be to allow probes to be filtered for on the scanner, and to have an auto-repeat feature which re-scans every 5 seconds.
nice way to make the game cater for the lazy.
Why not just have an "auto Mission" button that completes it for him, holds correct ranges + alingment, monitors scans and docks when in danger. he comes back after work X100M Richer each day.
Because an autorepeat on scanner completely removes every risk in lowsec, C/D
D.
They 1) still have to watch it (many won't), and 2) still have to risk someone getting in the window.
You'll still catch the stupid or lazy ones, and the ones that give themselves carpal tunnel by spamming the scan button will get away anyway.
Killboard - Declarations of War Podcast |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.06 23:01:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
They 1) still have to watch it (many won't), and 2) still have to risk someone getting in the window.
You'll still catch the stupid or lazy ones, and the ones that give themselves carpal tunnel by spamming the scan button will get away anyway.
So you just want it made easy for the mission runners? lowering the "lazy" bar? thereby reducing the catch chance?
change it so theres more in low sec by nerfing the highsec missions and that would be fine. Suggesting an alternative (to make it easier on the clicks without reducing the # of pilots caught) would be a good idea if you dont like that one however.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.06 23:03:00 -
[158]
Originally by: iudex
Originally by: murder one Incorrect. Mission runners have had huge advantages for years and were coddled with all sorts of special protection from CCP. Now that has been rectified and you can't cope with the changes.
They didn't have an advantage. Maybe over incompetent wannabe-probers like you...
murder one is one of the best probers in the game. I don't often agree with him, and he can be really abrasive, but he's a damn good prober.
Killboard - Declarations of War Podcast |
Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.06 23:11:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Jimer Lins
They 1) still have to watch it (many won't), and 2) still have to risk someone getting in the window.
You'll still catch the stupid or lazy ones, and the ones that give themselves carpal tunnel by spamming the scan button will get away anyway.
So you just want it made easy for the mission runners? lowering the "lazy" bar? thereby reducing the catch chance?
change it so theres more in low sec by nerfing the highsec missions and that would be fine. Suggesting an alternative (to make it easier on the clicks without reducing the # of pilots caught) would be a good idea if you dont like that one however.
You won't get more people to lowsec by nerfing hisec rewards. It simply does not, has not, and never will work that way. They'll just run the lower-reward missions or leave the game.
I'm a dedicated covert ops pilot and do a LOT of probing. Nothing's more frustrating than getting someone probed out, then watching them vanish from directional while you're en route because they saw your probes.
That said, it's absolutely insane that people have to continually click a UI button. It's bad user experience, it's horrible user interface design, it's bad for the client, it's bad for the network, and it's bad for the server. And it's also terrifically bad game design. There is no defensible argument to be made for keeping such a bad game mechanic in place- unless you like the fact that you benefit from it.
I don't necessarily have a better idea right this minute, but it's a stupid mechanic, and should be changed. I'm absolutely certain there's a way to make it balanced and "fair" (in the sense that it's a balanced game mechanic).
Like it or not, it's a pathetically stupid game mechanic, and it needs to be changed.
Killboard - Declarations of War Podcast |
Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.06 23:19:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
I don't necessarily have a better idea right this minute,
let me know when you do. I AM open to suggestions.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.06 23:21:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Jimer Lins
I don't necessarily have a better idea right this minute,
let me know when you do. I AM open to suggestions.
I'm sorry, but if your position is that not having a better idea means that the current situation is supportable, I simply don't agree.
If I think of something, I'll probably put it in F&I, but for now I'll just state that the current mechanism is both stupid and broken.
Killboard - Declarations of War Podcast |
Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.06 23:23:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Spurty oh and as someone already mentioned, its not a single player game.
Why aren't you running in a gang with pvp support? Seems your mission running will always bring pvp to to you (It doesn't get much better than that), so get people that want to pvp in gang and second you get guests, warp em in to whoop em.
More wrecks make more prizes. These rats might even drop faction loot / t2 gear. Its WELL WORTH IT.
If you're in a gang you'll just be ganked big a bigger gang. Being in a gang doesn't help that much in this case, and you can't expect everyone to always have a chaperon when they go in lowsec.
It's broken, face it. You may think you're a tough hardcore oldschool leet vet by saying that it's just part of lowsec life to hit the scan button every 3 seconds, but it still doesn't make sense at all. It's not because you learned to deal with it or that you think it's "the way to go if you wanna be a hardcore player" that it makes it so.
It's just too easy to scan someone down in deep-space now. They either have to change that, or make the UI easier to use so you can see it coming more than 10 seconds in advance.
________________
Kaylan Jahlar
The Assembly Hall needs your support! |
Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.07.07 01:43:00 -
[163]
Originally by: iudex
Today i was probed out in like 2-3 minutes.
I could have done this pre-apocrypha. So what. I actually think the new system gives mission runners a better opportunity to get away.
Despite what's been said here, you see more probes, and if you're doing a longer range scan you'll see these probes far before someone pulls them in.
My sig don't fracking work. |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.07.07 01:53:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Originally by: iudex
Originally by: murder one Incorrect. Mission runners have had huge advantages for years and were coddled with all sorts of special protection from CCP. Now that has been rectified and you can't cope with the changes.
They didn't have an advantage. Maybe over incompetent wannabe-probers like you...
murder one is one of the best probers in the game. I don't often agree with him, and he can be really abrasive, but he's a damn good prober.
Really abrasive? Aww shucks, you're making me blush! ;)
But seriously, thanks for the complement Jimer.
And for everyone else: for the record- I have every probing related skill at 5, Covert Ops 5, and every max level probe related implant installed in addition to using faction probes and probe launcher. So yeah, I'm dedicated to my craft- killing greedy lazy mission runners. -murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.07.07 01:54:00 -
[165]
Really, I think you low-sec mission runners are right. Instant alarms should go off all over your ship every time someone so much as launches a scanprobe in the system that you're in.
Better yet, let's go back to the old system where mission runners were practically invulnerable circ 2005.
Maybe even have concord spawn if someone ****s with a missioner, OR add a button for you to flag pvp off when you're mission running.
FFS you guys... I'm in a corp that makes a practice of probing out mission runners and we fail to catch our target more often than we get them.
Using your scanner and setting it on a longer distance will almost always save you, because while the probes at .5 AU are there for just a few seconds, you should be able to see probes for the ENTIRE 3 minutes someone is trying to scan you down if you're doing it right.
So either
1. You aren't doing it right 2. You want minimal risk mission running--from the sounds of it you want low to be almost like high-sec. My sig don't fracking work. |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.07.07 02:07:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Jimer Lins
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Jimer Lins
I don't necessarily have a better idea right this minute,
let me know when you do. I AM open to suggestions.
I'm sorry, but if your position is that not having a better idea means that the current situation is supportable, I simply don't agree.
If I think of something, I'll probably put it in F&I, but for now I'll just state that the current mechanism is both stupid and broken.
Jimer-
Quite frankly, I think that the current design is pretty crap as well. It's just bad game design. Frankly, it feels like a rough first pass/prototype design that should have never been released for prime time.
The worst thing about the previous probing system is that if you didn't have bookmarks that allowed you to get within range to drop a 4au probe, you're basically screwed when it comes to probing out a mission runner in a timely fashion. On the flip side, getting a PVP target probed out on the fly was a little more simple with the old system than it now is.
The thing that I don't like about the new system is that it hurts PVP probing (i.e. when you're trying to probe out other PVP fit ships on the fly while in combat and actively chasing each other) and in some ways makes probing PVE targets a little too easy for the unskilled (both in skill points and technique).
I think that there should be some sort of system that would require higher user skill on the probers part but would allow a prober to be more stealthy when probing PVE targets in addition to something that would be a little more simplified in function when it comes to finding very dynamic PVP targets but is essentially useless for finding PVE targets.
What I think should remain regardless of any changes is the ability to move your probes around the system without requiring massive numbers of bookmarks to get an accurate position to probe a target out.
What if we again changed the probe types and added back the deadspace signature reduction effect? Have a special PVP combat probe that would find anything within it's range with only one probe dropped, increase the scan time slightly for this particular class of probe but make it useless for probing mission runners.
Conversely, design some probes that are very short range but high strength and only show up on a scanner if they're within a certain range of your ship, allowing the truly skilled probers to keep the probes outside of a target's detection range while still being able to probe out the target.
The above would give probers the option to go with the easy fast approach and hope that the target doesn't see the probes, or use more finesse and try and probe the target while keeping the probes off of it's scan range.
-murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.07 02:46:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Jimer Lins D.
They 1) still have to watch it (many won't), and 2) still have to risk someone getting in the window.
You'll still catch the stupid or lazy ones, and the ones that give themselves carpal tunnel by spamming the scan button will get away anyway.
Finally some sense o.0
Anyway, we seem to be stuck in a loop n this thread.
Person A sees mashing the same button, sorting results and playing THE REST OF THE GAME AT THE SAME TIME as unreasonable for standard human reflexes.
Pirate B see's it as completely acceptable as they like the bravely ignore catching people at gates/stations as a risk for runners and mission runners having to default on bonus payments/whole missions, thus losing Corp, Empire and Agent standings meaning they MIGHT HAVE TO LEAVE LOWSEC to farm more mission to recover standings for the agent.
For as long as the latter mindset exists this thread is going to follow a concurrent loop of unreasonable demands in which each party suggests their ideas with slight bias to their playstyle.
Sorted you need to realise several things, and i'll detail them to you as best i can.
1. The "lazy" people are not in lowsec to start with. A change to make something less strenuous (Or "Easier" as you claim it) will not suddenly make all of your targets disappear or become invulnerable in some shroud of CCP magic. The few people you catch today would still be caught, because there is a difference between laziness and a mistake or slip-up. Making the button auto-repeat every 5 seconds does not change the difficulty of what occurs. I can spam the button to hell and back easily today, the difference between an auto-repeat and now is how strenuous the task is, difficulty is not effected. Just the long-term effect of how my hand feels and how willing i am to continue doing my risky activities.
2. Opportunities; You do not rely on probing out your missioners or complex runners for all your kills, (Dear lord i hope not, but the amount of intelligence you have shown thus far makes me worry slightly) Unlike you, the mission runners are tied to certain static positions during several stages, first of, the agent. Agents never move around (except when CCP deems a change needed) meaning mission runners are always going to have to run missions from the same, small collection of systems. When they accept a mission they are tied to the same location in space with small variance between rooms, meaning once they are found that mission is void until you leave, and even then this repeats several times a day even if you do leave.
3. Profitability is not the reason highsec mission runners stick to highsec 90% of the time. You nerf level fours highsec runners will drop to level 3s or continue level fours. Even if you buff lowsec mission profits threefold the thing that needs to change is the chances of seeing these profits. There is a common factor in the "Risk vs Reward" phrase that is chance of seeing said profits, or, success rate if you will. You can yank up the profitability until the cows come home but unless the chance of seeing those profits increases too, very few people will take the risks.
What you could do, is allow people to request up 4 missions at once, with a 15minute interval between each request. Increase the amount of non-penalised turn downs to two per four hours with the four hour timer restoring the two. This means the mission runner could, with some mild success jump between missions unless you bring a heavy gang. But hey this reduces your catch rate so its probably a "bad idea" on that alone, rite?
_____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.07.07 04:21:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Blane Xero -snipped for character count-
I think it's funny that we seem to always be on opposite ends of the coin so consistently.
1. There are tons of lazy people in lowsec. The large majority of mission runners are lazy and this causes them to get caught for no other reason than they haven't done enough due diligence to keep from getting caught in the first place. And when you are caught repeatedly that just screams stupidity or stubbornness or both.
2. Mission running opportunities- if you're being heavily hunted in one area a mission runner can always jumpclone to another part of the galaxy into another nest of agents and run missions there. Additionally, there are quite a few systems where there are multiple high quality agents clustered together where multiple missions can be requested in parallel.
3. I agree, profitability isn't the reason that highsec mission runners stick to highsec. It's 90% the safety. This is bad game design. Nothing over a level 2 should be available in highsec space and there should be more variation between security ratings instead of the binary can/can't shoot between .5s and .4s. CONCORD should be able to be outrun, avoided or outright killed in mid-level security systems like .5s and .6s. CONCORD should behave similar to how faction navies attack Factional Warfare targets when operating in .5-.6 security systems.
Brief incursions and quick hit and run kills against larger ships (BS, BCs) should be possible in the mid-level security systems. It's poor game design that everyone goes from being basically 100% safe from a non-suicide PVP attack to 100% vulnerable in one jump.
4. Players can ALREADY request multiple parallel missions from agents in the same area and indeed, even the same STATION to hop between if they are probed out by a pirate. What you're suggesting is nothing that doesn't already exist.
5. Maybe agents *should* move around. What if you could access your agent from any station you could dock at, and that same agent sent you all over the galaxy for various missions and other related content? I agree that tying down players to static agents in only a handful of systems is a horrible piece of game design. It would be much better (and very easy to implement) if a player could simply interact with their agent list 100% from any where in the galaxy, and those agents would send players on contextual dynamically generated missions.
The mission reward could take into account the amount of time required for travel as well as the mission completion requirements, and a multi-staged mission could have individual stages in multiple systems. Right now PVE is very simple and one dimensional. I think it would be more popular if it were more complex with more depth and options for the players.
-murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.07 11:30:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Karlemgne I could have done this pre-apocrypha. So what. I actually think the new system gives mission runners a better opportunity to get away.
Despite what's been said here, you see more probes, and if you're doing a longer range scan you'll see these probes far before someone pulls them in.
The difference is that pre-Apocrypha your probes would have remained in space for the entirety of that time (2-3 minutes), giving an alert mission runner reasonable time to detect them. On your second comment, you could launch 20, 100 probes if you like, but if they only remain 5 seconds in space chances are an alert player will not detect them. This isnÆt about me wanting to be 100% safe, or being lazy, or me provoking a carebear vs. pirate dispute. This is about a game mechanic thatÆs broken. And the fact that some of you are here even defending this mechanic is leading me to believe that you are benefitting from this stupidity and ridiculousness. This is broken game mechanics, plain and simple. I suspect itÆs an oversight that the new probing mechanics have brought along.
And to the person that asked why it has taken me 6 months to bring this up (I think it was Le Skunk), as time goes by more and more probers are catching on to. ItÆs becoming more and more common, as it has happened to me. And I suspect that there will be more players asking the same questions in the months to come: Why are probes not showing up in onboard scanners? The reason being because we now have to press the button and sort through results every 5 seconds while at the same time micromanaging our ships!
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Liberi Fatalius Exalted.
|
Posted - 2009.07.07 12:03:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Exlegion The difference is that pre-Apocrypha your probes would have remained in space for the entirety of that time (2-3 minutes), giving an alert mission runner reasonable time to detect them. On your second comment, you could launch 20, 100 probes if you like, but if they only remain 5 seconds in space
Normal mission spots will take several minutes to pin down. You have to deploy long-range, then keep narrowing down and scanning again til you get a hit
I've seen people try and probe me out dozens of times - It's always the same. I see one or two probes, but it isn't for another few minutes before those probes are actually 'close' and by the time they warp in it's far, far too late.
You don't need to scan every 5 seconds. You could scan every 60 seconds and still catch 80-90% of probers. You could even stop scanning altogether and simply move away from the beacons and align out and you're still basically never going to get caught.
- Contagious - |
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fmercury
Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.07.07 12:06:00 -
[171]
1) By probing you down so quickly, the prober is demonstrating extremely good skills, both SP-wise and actual, in-game skill. CCP tends to reward this, and rightly so. What skills are you demonstrating?
2) Battleships are extremely easy to probe down. This is by design. Try missioning in a HAC with ECCM in your spare mids.
3) There is some inherent risk in operating in lowsec, deal with it. There are steps you can take to mitigate this. Allign, for example, and warp out when you see anything coming on grid. Whining to CCP to nerf probing is not one. If you don't like it, go back to highsec.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.07 12:08:00 -
[172]
You. Are. Not. Supposed. To. Be. Safe. In. Low-sec.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.07 12:09:00 -
[173]
Rawr Cristina,
There is a technique in where you do not need to narrow down and decrease your probesÆ radius. You use the onboard scanner to pinpoint the location of your target to about an AU. Then you align your probes accordingly and launch. You will get a hit in less than 10 seconds and then retrieve probes. That is the issue here. If it wasnÆt for the above the matter wouldnÆt be so grave.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.07 12:13:00 -
[174]
I think some of you are still unaware of the 'technique' that is being discussed here. I don't have a problem with the way probes are intended to work. However, at the moment there is a workaround that allows you to bypass having to use your probes up until the very end and only for about 5 seconds in space. <== That is my problem.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Babel
Boom and Bust Economics Ltd.
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Posted - 2009.07.07 12:15:00 -
[175]
No, you should not be 100% safe ever. Yes, spamming scan/sort every 5 secs is still pretty ridiculous.
How about introducing a nifty wee module [named something funky like 'Heisenberg's Cosmic Fuzz Emitter'] that somewhat nerfs yr fit/setup [more than just taking up a slot] but throws a deviation-spanner into the scanning equation of probers? blah blah better meta versions improved etc ..
Spam scan as often/infrequently as you wish, based on your own judgement of perceived threat vs. how 'fuzzy' you've made yr ship.
Seems a reasonable trade-off type idea ... . "Out of the good of evil born, Came Uriel's voice of cherub scorn" |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.07 12:17:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You. Are. Not. Supposed. To. Be. Safe. In. Low-sec.
Yes, I know.
Did you know you're not supposed to use your probes for only just 5 seconds to scan someone down?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Rawr Cristina
Caldari Liberi Fatalius Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.07 12:28:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Exlegion Rawr Cristina,
There is a technique in where you do not need to narrow down and decrease your probesÆ radius. You use the onboard scanner to pinpoint the location of your target to about an AU. Then you align your probes accordingly and launch. You will get a hit in less than 10 seconds and then retrieve probes. That is the issue here. If it wasnÆt for the above the matter wouldnÆt be so grave.
Easier said than done when the mission is 10AU off plane, or out of scan range completely though...
Yes it makes it quicker but how hard is it to pull it off perfectly? Unless you're amazing or the mission is really close to a celestial you'll misjudge and have to move the probes around somewhat before getting a hit. And even if they pull the whole thing off perfectly, they're still not gonna catch you if you're careful.
- Contagious - |
fmercury
Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.07.07 12:48:00 -
[178]
Edited by: fmercury on 07/07/2009 12:48:32
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Caelum Dominus You. Are. Not. Supposed. To. Be. Safe. In. Low-sec.
Yes, I know.
Did you know you're not supposed to use your probes for only just 5 seconds to scan someone down?
Says who? If he's developed the skills to pin you down and probe you that quickly, which is far from trivial, believe me, he should reap the rewards. You want to keep missioning in a battleship in perfect safety? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Get something harder to probe down, and they won't be able to get such a quick result. HURR.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:02:00 -
[179]
Edited by: Forge Lag on 07/07/2009 13:05:09 All those pro pirates with their attitude.
We CAN spam the button every 5 sec.
Some of us may even be doing that. Some may be declining non-deadspace missions where we cannot rely on can trick to decloak tacklers. Some of us saw the way of Raven that allow us to move freely and align at all times without performance issues and without micromanagement and abandoned our gunships. We may be getting up at 4 in the morning to finish compromised missions.
This is all very fked up for a game. It is not anything that makes you good player it just makes miserable gaming experience.
There should be certain tension in the whole predator-prey mechanics, trying to approach unseen or pretending to be harmless and for prey to assess threads correcly, not panicking wildly yet running when time is ripe. But there is very little of this fun in the current mechanics and it all degrades into wrestling with badly designed game UI.
I do not often mission in low in large part because I refuse to play crappy games and EvE luckily lets me avoid its sucky parts. My gaming standards are higher than "push button every five seconds". For the pirates that seems to be a pinnacle of gaming skills.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:15:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 07/07/2009 13:17:51
Originally by: Forge Lag
I do not often mission in low in large part because I refuse to play crappy games and EvE luckily lets me avoid its sucky parts. My gaming standards are higher than "push button every five seconds". For the pirates that seems to be a pinnacle of gaming skills.
What do you mean "my gaming standards are higher than pushing a button every five seconds"? Are you referring to killing NPCs in high-sec, sir?
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:37:00 -
[181]
I don't think the new probing mechanism is flawed (except for SS busting, but that's for a different thread).
The real issue seems to me its awkward interaction with the directional scanner, which is capable to give you the exact position of any ship up to 14AU. Let me repeat: exact position. While d-scan does not allow you to warp to a probed a ship, it does a much better job than combat probe at telling you where it is, as it can tell you every ship's position with a km accuracy. This effectively eliminates the need for each scanning step except the final one. The d-scan should give you some idea of what's around you but I see no reason why it should give you more information than specialized scannig tools (i.e. scanner probes).
However, considering that the d-scan belongs to the "intel suit", I expect it to be overhauled, along with local, in a not too far future (winter expansion?).
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fmercury
Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:46:00 -
[182]
You have little to no idea what you're talking about.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:52:00 -
[183]
Ok as an intellectual excercise (and becasue it was asked by someone before) lets try to find some better mechanics.
1) The scanning mechanics is fine. The UI needs some work, some eye candy is getting in the way way too much, there are few bugs and it is unpolished. In adition it would be nice to be able to perform some fast scans on they fly in a window. Return of race specific probes would be welcome - it rewards experienced scanners that can get lock with generic probe or know exactly what they are looking for and to prey who knows which probes should it be concerned with and which not.
2) Lets imagine we replace the directional scanner with something as well known as a 3D minimap. We introduce some artificial error so that the blips are not positioned entirely correcly. Lets perform a "sweep" every say 10 seconds. Some events can take less than that so instead of making them artificially longer (not just scan by probes but also warp ins and outs) we make the sweep record everything that happened in that timeframe (the shorter events leave 10sec imprint). The size of that minimap can be related to ship sensor strength, giving ECCM modules reason to be more common (and get less ECM whines as result). It does not really do much more than directional scanner but it is way easier to use and the "sweep" cooldown is more server friendly than fast directional spammers.
3) As an added feature we introuduce ealy warning system that gives generic alerts to events like "hostile in system" "3 anomalies in system" (basically it just performs system wide combat probe scan on gating in and alerts when entity enters - now hidden - local list). Now we can take away local because we know hostile or neutral came - we just don't know who unless we search for him actively (which can be as simple as o7 in local). Also new players get a hint that they maybe want to put a probe laucher on their ship and see if they can nail that anomaly.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:56:00 -
[184]
Originally by: fmercury You have little to no idea what you're talking about.
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Arec Bardwin
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Posted - 2009.07.07 14:26:00 -
[185]
Originally by: fmercury I have little to no idea what you're talking about.
Nice of you to admit it at least.
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.07.07 14:48:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Forge Lag There should be certain tension in the whole predator-prey mechanics, trying to approach unseen or pretending to be harmless and for prey to assess threads correcly, not panicking wildly yet running when time is ripe. But there is very little of this fun in the current mechanics and it all degrades into wrestling with badly designed game UI.
That's about the size of it. Evading enemies and keeping watch for ambushers has the potential to be fun and interactive, allowing two pilots to compete long before they actually see each other. But in EVE, it's more a tedious chore and exercise in loophole-finding than anything else.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.07 15:02:00 -
[187]
Originally by: fmercury You have little to no idea what you're talking about.
Actually, Space Wanderer is spot on. You can "probe" anyone down with the directional (onbaord) scanner. You only need actual probes to give you a warpable point, and for that you only need 5 seconds. This needs to be fixed.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.07 15:51:00 -
[188]
Remove scan probes from being detectable by the directional scanner even if overview options are unchecked.
Add scan probes to be detectable and filterable by the inbuilt 5au ( 30 second ) scanner.
Add auto repeat to the 30 second inbuilt scanner.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.07.07 17:47:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Dav Varan Remove scan probes from being detectable by the directional scanner even if overview options are unchecked.
Add scan probes to be detectable and filterable by the inbuilt 5au ( 30 second ) scanner.
Add auto repeat to the 30 second inbuilt scanner.
I don't see what problem this would solve. Using the d-scan once every 30 secs is still manageable. It's using the scanner every 5 second that is under investigation in this thread.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.07 18:03:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Dav Varan Remove scan probes from being detectable by the directional scanner even if overview options are unchecked.
Add scan probes to be detectable and filterable by the inbuilt 5au ( 30 second ) scanner.
Add auto repeat to the 30 second inbuilt scanner.
I don't see what problem this would solve. Using the d-scan once every 30 secs is still manageable. It's using the scanner every 5 second that is under investigation in this thread.
It removes the problem of having to click a button every x number of seconds and having to sort through a list of crap in the results , both of which are a ballache.
Having a 30 second refresh time means its not infalable , probers can still get a hit with out being seen spotted , mission runner has a chance to spot hostile probes. 30 seconds is up for debate of course maybe skills to get the time down to 15 secs.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.07 22:54:00 -
[191]
There needs to be a balance. Onboard scanning doesn't need to be automated, IMHO. I just want a fair chance at actually seeing the combat probes. This was probably the most valuable tool that an alert mission runner had in low sec. If we're going to have to smash a button and go through pages of data all I ask is enough time to actually press the button and go through the data. The directional scanner is, in a sense, better than combat probes because using the D-scanner sends no wanings out and it is extremely accurate. As it stands, combat probes are good for one thing: Providing you with a warpable point. I don't think this is how it was supposed to be.
Could a dev be so kind as to comment on this?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Constable Chang
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.08 01:00:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Orivanna So let me get this straight. Do you think there are any good games on the market that would allow something STUPID as sitting and pressing same button over and over again for an hour straight like a broken metronome?
Just stand back and look at how stupid the idea sounds.
Raiding in World of Warcraft.
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Olleybear
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.08 01:29:00 -
[193]
Missions take place in the same area of space in a system. You run one mission/scan out a single mission runner, you now have the general location of all other missions in system. Bookmark that area, see mission runner come into system, warp to your bookmark, drop probes, 5 seconds later you have the mission runner. \o/
You can even hit your directional scanner to pick up the wrecks on scan and know the resistance hole before you even warp in.
This is not pvp. Its ganking.
It is safer in 0.0 than in low sec. Stay in high sec to make your isk or move to a large 0.0 alliance. Forget about low sec.
<<< Just because your pet likes you, that does not mean you are a good person. >>> |
Taram Caldar
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.08 02:52:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 05/07/2009 15:21:13
Originally by: Exlegion to start off they could use an increase to around 30 to 60 seconds in scan time with max skills.
Yeah, let's continue to nerf the **** out of PvP because you don't like it. On a more helpful note, there's no need to scan for probes in the first place. Just stay aligned and warp whenever someone decloaks. It's that easy.
This tbh. 1) If something warps in uncloaked and you are aligned you can warp before they finish their warp and have a shot at tackling you 2) Anything that decloaks coming out of warp has a 3-5 second de-cloak delay before they can even start to target you, let alone put a point on you.
Just be aligned and warp if anything shows up on overview. That simple.
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Xantris
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Posted - 2009.07.08 05:34:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Sorted Edited by: Sorted on 05/07/2009 17:42:45
nice way to make the game cater for the lazy.
Why not just have an "auto Mission" button that completes it for him, holds correct ranges + alingment, monitors scans and docks when in danger. he comes back after work X100M Richer each day.
OR he could get his lazy ass back to hi sec. If he doesnt know by now to jet can on the mission entry point and move 50k away, staying alinged then i'm sure theres a handful of tricks he missing which will result in more "exploit" complaints... BACK TO HI SEC NUBBER
I don't understand how you think manually pressing a button every 3 seconds is good gameplay. Being able to set up an automated scan makes avoiding the danger of lowsec about what it really should be... paying attention and having a ready escape route. Not pushing a scan button for hours on end.
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Loco Eve
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Posted - 2009.07.08 05:52:00 -
[196]
Originally by: WarlockX
Originally by: Jimer Lins What I do is get a good line on the target with directional scanner, so I know about where they are. Then I drop probes way out of their scan range. Position the probes, and I can take my time to get them just right.
Then hit scan. The probes warp, they land, scan- takes about 5 seconds- then I hit "recover". Unless you were scanning during that window, you didn't see them, but I have a 100% hit.
Your best bet for avoiding this is to scan every 2-3 seconds if hostiles are in local or leave.
That sounds broken. You can't really expect ppl to hit scan every 2-3 seconds.
i do when nuets are around. habits of living in hostile 0.0 space. if i get a covert cloaker on scan i goto safe spot and log.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.08 10:12:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Olleybear
This is not pvp. Its ganking.
it IS PLAYER vs PLAYER. No one ever said it was fair. Welcome to EvE/Life.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.07.08 10:42:00 -
[198]
The current mechanics are horrible with respect to balance. They favor the hunter over the prey completely.
1 It is unreasonable to have to scan every 3 seconds.
2 The combination of the on board scanner + probles lets you find people way too fast.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.08 10:49:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Ghoest
They favor the hunter over the prey completely.
You have never hunted.
If they put the effort in they can escape 99 times out of 100
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:02:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Ghoest
They favor the hunter over the prey completely.
You have never hunted.
If they put the effort in they can escape 99 times out of 100
Ghoest is right. Onboard scanner + probes is horribly overpowered and skewed towards the hunter. You refuse to admit it because you're benefiting from this nonsense. You've even gone as far as saying that not smashing the button and going over results every 5 seconds and micromanaging the ship all at the same time is just me being "lazy". To be honest your statements show how far you're willing to go to gain an advantage in the game. You're willing to horribly handicap your prey to win over them. It's quite sad, TBH.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:36:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Sorted on 08/07/2009 11:38:24
Originally by: Exlegion [ Ghoest is right. Onboard scanner + probes is horribly overpowered and skewed towards the hunter. You refuse to admit it because you're benefiting from this nonsense. You've even gone as far as saying that not smashing the button and going over results every 5 seconds and micromanaging the ship all at the same time is just me being "lazy". To be honest your statements show how far you're willing to go to gain an advantage in the game. You're willing to horribly handicap your prey to win over them. It's quite sad, TBH.
You have clearly NEVER hunted. IF YOU DO IT RIGHT YOU CAN REDUCE YOUR CHANCE OF BEING CAUGHT TO NEARLY NIL. Change the 3 sec button bash to autorepeat, thats cool as I have to go through it myself anyways, BUT rebalance the reduced effort required by allowing the prober to land on 0. (rather than the gate). At the moment the only chance we have of a catch is if the prey gets lax in his precautions. The issue WAS the 3 sec button bash, remove that would reduce the catch chance as an absolute and THAT would be unbalancing. Read the rest of my posts you lazy nubber.
How far am I willing to go? arguing with an idiot on the forums? ( I should of learned last time I argued with an idiot, you lowerd me to your level then beat me with experience!)
BUT - answer this. Have you ever hunted ? Link mail pls.
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Sorted
Highwaymen Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:41:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Sorted on 08/07/2009 11:41:19
Originally by: Exlegion You're willing to horribly handicap your prey to win over them.
I'll gank 10 + falcon, Rapier, Arazu on 1 given a chance, it happens to me often enough (7 moms vs 1 BS lol)
If you find yourself in a fair fight then something went wrong.
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Liz Laser
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 12:46:00 -
[203]
If the techniques described here work as described, it is only a matter of time until this thread has everyone utilizing them, and missioners leaving low-sec again.
Pirates and Gankers. Victims of their own success.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.07.08 13:30:00 -
[204]
I don't think the problem here is with people's options for avoiding being caught; it's just that they can be found very rapidly, and this makes it difficult for low-sec mission runners to earn a reasonable profit in the long run.
Hunters and hunted alike are using the scanner excessively, so I don't think an auto-repeat option would give either side a significant advantage. I'd suggest that this is probably more a matter of UI and gameplay design than economic balance.
Random idea: how about making mission deadspaces take longer to probe down, while also disabling or limiting the directional scanner for ships within them?
--- 20:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:36:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Exlegion There needs to be a balance. Onboard scanning doesn't need to be automated, IMHO. I just want a fair chance at actually seeing the combat probes. This was probably the most valuable tool that an alert mission runner had in low sec. If we're going to have to smash a button and go through pages of data all I ask is enough time to actually press the button and go through the data. The directional scanner is, in a sense, better than combat probes because using the D-scanner sends no wanings out and it is extremely accurate. As it stands, combat probes are good for one thing: Providing you with a warpable point. I don't think this is how it was supposed to be.
Could a dev be so kind as to comment on this?
Sorry what are you complaining about then ? You have a 100% chance of seeing any probe if you scan often enough !!
Sound to me like you just missed them on this occasion, not scanning often enough or missed them in the clutter of the results list.
Nothing is broken.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:39:00 -
[206]
Edited by: Dav Varan on 08/07/2009 15:39:18 BTW were you in a Marauder ?
Afaik these are very easy to scan out from long range , so are easy to get a hit on first time.
+ Any ship if you fit ECCM you will be more difficult to scan out, giving you more opportunities to see probes.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.08 22:38:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Dav Varan You have a 100% chance of seeing any probe if you scan often enough !!
Sound to me like you just missed them on this occasion, not scanning often enough or missed them in the clutter of the results list.
Nothing is broken.
My friend, I know that by spamming the button often enough I will see the probes. My question is how much should ôoften enoughö be? 60 seconds? 5 seconds? 1 second? As it stands 5 seconds is just too low a number to be able to press ôscanö and review results. When I said scanning doesnÆt need to be automated I meant it doesnÆt have to be. There needs to be a balance. I donÆt want things to swing easy on the other direction either. Eventually this is something CCP will have to decide.
My point is that right this moment as things stand there is no reason to use combat probes to probe someone because not only could you pinpoint someoneÆs location to less than 1 A.U. but the D-scanner will not send out ôalertsö that someone is being probed down. Once you pinpoint someone down with your onboard scanner you only need probes to give you a warpable point. Yes, there will be exceptions in where the prey will be far from any celestial object or the proberÆs own bookmarks. But considering most mission are near celestial objects this is quite trivial.
How does this affect me? I will first say that I have learned to be quite careful in low sec. Yes, I align. Yes, I drop a can to decloak any cloaker. Yes, I move away from the gate. These steps are great in case I am abushed and will increase my chances of survival. My issue is with profitability in low sec. Low sec IS more profitable than high sec. IÆm not here to argue against that fact. But by my mission being found, and it WILL be found, since I will most likely not see the probes (letÆs face it, in a mission of 45 minutes I will have a window of 5 seconds to detect darn probes), my profitability will go to the floor. Yes, I can dock. Yes, I can fight them . Yes, I could hire a bigger blob to come gank them. But it doesnÆt take away the fact that profitability is rolling down the stairs.
LetÆs face it. Mission runners go to low sec to increase their bottom line over high sec. Pirates are there to kill the mission runners. ItÆs how the food chain is set up in Eve. But there will still need to be a reason for me, as a mission runner, to be there. The additional adrenalin is nice and all, but IÆm there mostly for profits. And if my PVE ship is docked, then IÆm not making ISK, which is fine since IÆm expecting this to happen often. However, now I must dock my PVE ship EVERY SINGLE TIME a neutral enters a low sec system because I have no idea if heÆs probing me or not. I will now spend a hell of a lot more time wondering, docking, checking stations, etc rather than completing my mission.
My other option would be to mission ætill IÆm busted. Hopefully IÆm aligned and I warp out on time. But once I dock might as well go kill some time doing something else.
IÆm not asking for ô100% safetyö. IÆm asking CCP to keep low sec productive so that I still have a reason to stay there. But the new probing mechanics have tipped off the scale too far into the side of the hunter. Again, probes are no longer needed to probe down players other than to provide a hunter with a warpable point. ôProbingö can be accomplished exclusively, accurately, and in complete stealth by the built-in directional scanner. Once probes are launched theyÆre out for a whole 5 seconds. And as a mission runner I have that much time to spot them on my scanner. Does that seem balanced? That is the question I want CCP to answer.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Methodius
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Posted - 2009.07.08 23:12:00 -
[208]
EVE needs RWR for ships. Simple as that. The probe scanning system post Apocrypha has gotten too good for the old fashioned ship scanner we're all used to.
Introduce extra skills, a module or whatever... but it needs to be implemented.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.10 11:23:00 -
[209]
CCP, could you confirm that you know the situation with the directional scanner and combat probes? Are they working as intended?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
mari essence
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Posted - 2009.07.11 19:46:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Tammarr nerf pvp? nerf the insane probably non intended buff to piracy. Earlier, you could get out of your mission if you were vigilant, now you have no idea they are coming? Earlier, there was no problem getting someone in a mission that didnt check to often. I do piracy, I do missionbusting, I do this when I'am bored, if I want to kill a rat, then Ill go run my own missions. Killing a missionrunner, is like killing your standard belt bs rat. Dont call it pvp =) (Ok, sometimes they'll actually agree to a ransom long as your reasonable.) No, I'am not upset, and yes, if we got hostiles in sys, we usually plan a tarp for them. So I'am not to concerned but meh, to much of a buff is to much.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.11 20:17:00 -
[211]
Updated topic to better reflect issue with combat probes + onboard scanner. Also added a TL;DR.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.12 01:35:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Olleybear
This is not pvp. Its ganking.
it IS PLAYER vs PLAYER. No one ever said it was fair. Welcome to EvE/Life.
If you understand that it's not fair, why ask for an unfair advantage ? Oh let me guess, because you can't win a fight if it was against someone who is set up for pvp ?
Those gankers and wannabe-"pirates" are born losers tbh, they'd never fight a regular pvp ship, they simply suck at pvp and have to gank missionrunners and haulers to have a lift. They gank a raven that has tons of NPCs against it and think "wow i killed someone, i must rock at pvp, i'm so uber". In rl that are the losers in school, who are spanked by their 7th grader class mates and then go and beat some 5th graders up to feel strong again. Or the husband who has been bullied at work, and then comes home and takes it out on his wife. Those people don't deserve a "boost", not even in a game.
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2009.07.12 01:38:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Terranid Meester on 12/07/2009 01:43:34
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
More carebear QQ. Didn't read. Stay in high sec etc.
Originally by: Exlegion CCP, could you confirm that you know the situation with the directional scanner and combat probes? Are they working as intended?
CCP at your call? Why we are in the prescence of an EveGod. King of Carebears! I bet they give you free trips to Iceland (unless you already live there).
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.12 03:35:00 -
[214]
if you dont like being probed down, do missions in hisec. you obviously have never heard of risk vs reward
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.12 03:43:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba If you understand that it's not fair, why ask for an unfair advantage ? Oh let me guess, because you can't win a fight if it was against someone who is set up for pvp ?
Those gankers and wannabe-"pirates" are born losers tbh, they'd never fight a regular pvp ship, they simply suck at pvp and have to gank missionrunners and haulers to have a lift. They gank a raven that has tons of NPCs against it and think "wow i killed someone, i must rock at pvp, i'm so uber". In rl that are the losers in school, who are spanked by their 7th grader class mates and then go and beat some 5th graders up to feel strong again. Or the husband who has been bullied at work, and then comes home and takes it out on his wife. Those people don't deserve a "boost", not even in a game.
This is a common misconception by carebears and quite frankly wrong. I have over 7,000 lifetime kills and many times I have fought pvp ships. I have blobbed people yes, I have been blobbed, I have lost 1v1s and won 1v1s.
The reason that I sometimes kill mission runners is because I know that it ****es them off. Yes I know it is an easy kill, I am not doing it for the challenge. I am doing it for the fact that people like you come on the forums and cry so hard.
The tools have been in place for 6 years now to avoid this situation. If you do not like getting ganked in a mission, do not run missions in lowsec; or better yet actually become part of the eve world and join a corp than can help you trap and kill the players that are probing you down.
Of course you could continue to whine mindlessly on the forums in hope of CCP intervention (which you will not get).
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.07.12 03:51:00 -
[216]
When the day comes that local is removed, and it's the pirates having to spam the buttons, then this will be fixed.
20K+ years into the future and the ships don't have an active wideband ECM system. Fighter jets built in the 1970s have better protection technology.
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.12 03:52:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer When the day comes that local is removed, and it's the pirates having to spam the buttons, then this will be fixed.
20K+ years into the future and the ships don't have an active wideband ECM system. Fighter jets built in the 1970s have better protection technology.
hey tell me how to get to the fantasy land you are living in
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Bel Amar
Amarr Children of Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.07.12 04:26:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer 20K+ years into the future and the ships don't have an active wideband ECM system. Fighter jets built in the 1970s have better protection technology.
They very well might, but 16AU at the speed of light does not provide feedback in a useful timeframe :)
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.12 04:47:00 -
[219]
Edited by: Exlegion on 12/07/2009 04:53:50
Originally by: SK Rooster if you dont like being probed down, do missions in hisec. you obviously have never heard of risk vs reward
I think you have missed the entire point of this thread. I don't mind being probed down at all. I have been probed down several times during my stay in low sec. I have years living in low sec. I understand the risks. I will suggest that you re-read the OP. My concern is with me having to spam the scan button every 5 seconds while pirates now can probe me down with almost 0% risk of detection. When the combat probes are launched I will have approximately a 5-second window to detect them.
Do you believe that spamming a button and going through the results every 5 seconds for hours on end is a good and sound implementation?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.12 05:17:00 -
[220]
Originally by: SK Rooster The tools have been in place for 6 years now to avoid this situation. If you do not like getting ganked in a mission, do not run missions in lowsec; or better yet actually become part of the eve world and join a corp than can help you trap and kill the players that are probing you down.
Again, and with all due respect I will suggest you re-read the OP so you can better understand what loophole is being discussed here. Or read this post.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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Joe
Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2009.07.12 05:42:00 -
[221]
If a feature like scanning for probes isnt effective, or usefull, then it isnt a feature, its a gimick.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.07.12 06:14:00 -
[222]
Edited by: Hiroshima Jita on 12/07/2009 06:16:02 Mission in an out of the way system and dock/safe up when other people come in? Its what other people doing the pve shtick do.
- bounce safes anyway
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.12 06:57:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 12/07/2009 05:02:21
Originally by: SK Rooster if you dont like being probed down, do missions in hisec. you obviously have never heard of risk vs reward
I think you have missed the entire point of this thread. I don't mind being probed down at all. I have been probed down several times during my stay in low sec. I have years living in low sec and I understand the risks. I will suggest that you re-read the OP. My concern is with me having to spam the scan button every 5 seconds while pirates now can probe me down with almost 0% risk of detection. When the combat probes are launched I will have approximately a 5-second window to detect them.
Do you believe that spamming a button and going through the results every 5 seconds for hours on end is a good and sound implementation? You donÆt find that players ôprobingö players without actually using probes is even a little questionable? As it stands right now combat probes have a primary function of just spitting out a bookmark for you to warp to. Probing can be done almost exclusively through the onboard scanner. You donÆt find this a bit broken?
The fact that people can be probed quickly now makes lowsec missions more of a risk then they were before. If you are not willing to take that risk then do not do missions in lowsec.
I am not sure how much clearer I can make this.
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Shanija
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Posted - 2009.07.12 07:28:00 -
[224]
I feel stupider after reading some of the inane responses in this thread. Ganking missionrunners isn't "PvP". The mechanics are horrible no matter what direction you look at them from.
The current system is not an interesting or challenging interplay, and it needs to be fixed. In the meantime, breaking lowsec missioning by making it unviable, as has been pointed out, even reduces the ganking opportunities, so even those of you confused about what "PvP" is about should be for fixing it.
Reminder: it's a game. It's here for fun. If you're getting excited at the thought of another player being upset then it's time to quit.
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Celeritas 5k
Caldari Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.07.12 07:41:00 -
[225]
I play both sides of the field (Hunting and being hunted) and I have to say I don't think it's probes that are broken, it's the directional scanner.
You need to be able to have a filter just for probes. Having to search through the thousands of POS modules that happen to be close by every few seconds is gamebreakingly meticulous, obnoxious, and requires no intelligence or skill. It sucks.
Add filters for probes and an auto cycle to the scanner and the system will be fine. Better yet, set up the scanner to update in real time, like the overview. That would probably save thousands of left mouse buttons all over the world... - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied. |
Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.12 08:13:00 -
[226]
Originally by: SK Rooster
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 12/07/2009 05:02:21
Originally by: SK Rooster if you dont like being probed down, do missions in hisec. you obviously have never heard of risk vs reward
I think you have missed the entire point of this thread. I don't mind being probed down at all. I have been probed down several times during my stay in low sec. I have years living in low sec and I understand the risks. I will suggest that you re-read the OP. My concern is with me having to spam the scan button every 5 seconds while pirates now can probe me down with almost 0% risk of detection. When the combat probes are launched I will have approximately a 5-second window to detect them.
Do you believe that spamming a button and going through the results every 5 seconds for hours on end is a good and sound implementation? You donÆt find that players ôprobingö players without actually using probes is even a little questionable? As it stands right now combat probes have a primary function of just spitting out a bookmark for you to warp to. Probing can be done almost exclusively through the onboard scanner. You donÆt find this a bit broken?
The fact that people can be probed quickly now makes lowsec missions more of a risk then they were before. If you are not willing to take that risk then do not do missions in lowsec.
I am not sure how much clearer I can make this.
I don't agree with this. There should be a fair chance for a skilled player to do lowsec activities, mission running, exploration, without getting blown up. A fair chance.
As a side note, I have to say, respect to those people who master this probing technique. You can't really tell which way your view is pointing, when you switch to system map, so figuring out where to place the probes is very difficult. I tried it and it is hard to do.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltd0wn
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Posted - 2009.07.12 08:25:00 -
[227]
Originally by: SK Rooster The fact that people can be probed quickly now makes lowsec missions more of a risk then they were before. If you are not willing to take that risk then do not do missions in lowsec.
So, by your own admission, the risk was increased, but the rewards stayed the same. And people that ask for it to be brought back into balance (assuming it was balanced before) aren't reasonable but whiners? Sorry, does not compute.
The increased rewards in lowsec over highsec offset around 1 ship loss (Premium insured, no fancy rigs, t2 fittings) every 25-30 completed missions. But you can rarely run 3 consecutive missions before scanprobers flock around you like flies on a pile of crap.
There is a balance here that makes it worthwile for both parties, we simply need to find it.
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Adreenalina Villak
Corp 1 Allstars
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Posted - 2009.07.12 09:38:00 -
[228]
Let me jump in here for a bit.
As pointed out the probes are used to scan out mission areas for other players.
Now this is a major problem to the game mechanics.
Missions used to be run at moons and asteroid belts, but it did only take a short while before a lot of players and their uncle found out where the preferred spawnpoints were located. And so they just positioned themselves there, I can remember a lot of missions I failed at for that reason, the NPC rats were gone already when I arrived.
The result was a mission failure. CCP created the 'deadspace' areas in one attempt to correct this situation.
In short mission areas were semi instanced to make mission running possible in this game. Thats the reason you were unable to warp there.
These probes have become extremely easy to use with just a minimum or effort now, and this have been brought back have moved things back to the original situation of 2003.
It certainly cannot be the intention of CCP to have that mess brought back into the game!
So I agree with the OP of this thread and ask CCP to have a serious look at this matter an make corrections the earliest opportunity!
And I still don't have the right portrait showing after many many months. :'( |
Kiri Serrensun
|
Posted - 2009.07.12 09:46:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Celeritas 5k You need to be able to have a filter just for probes. Having to search through the thousands of POS modules that happen to be close by every few seconds is gamebreakingly meticulous, obnoxious, and requires no intelligence or skill. It sucks.
Oh God, POS modules. Because apparently you can tell your probes "Hey, I know about xxxPIMP PALACExxx (Large Caldari Control Tower) and the dozen silos it has fitted, so just ignore them in future" but not your actual ship scanner.
The issue for me isn't whether the directional scanner is underpowered or overpowered. It's that it's boring and tedious to use. I'm not too worried about the balance, just make it a bit less agonising to use. The only real skill now is timing the fream-rate slowdowns that happen when you click Scan.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.07.12 16:55:00 -
[230]
Good probers have always relied on the directional scanner. This is nothing new and it's working as intended. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.12 17:07:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Good probers have always relied on the directional scanner. This is nothing new and it's working as intended.
Santiago,
Even though what you say is correct, pre-Apocrypha there was a need to use probes. A prober needed to actually warp to different locations and drop probes. This allowed the prey enough time to detect them, assuming the prey was paying attention. Now there is absolutely no need to drop probes. So yes, before you could still "probe" someone with the D-scanner, but probes still had a significant role to play. Now you only need 5 seconds to drop a probe and get a result. This is broken, IMO.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Orion GUardian
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.07.12 18:47:00 -
[232]
Its a delicate situation, anyway Tl/dr after page 2, so bear with me....this thread is not about the scanning mechanic anymore is it? Its about lowsec dangers again. And as far as I have read, probing down mission runners and similar got rather easy, while the protection against getting into a PvP-Situation [where a mission runner is at a disadvantage] is rather slim.
Compared to the effort the mission runner has to make in order to earn some money, the effort needed for the "predator" to ruin his ability in money earning seems rather low. [once probed out the mission is nearly unfinishable because its compromised and perhaps camped]
That is the whole reason why low sec is underpopulated because moneymaking is far more difficult than destroying ones efforts. [ok let be real, Highsec is exactely the opposite] AND thats in a system where making money in itself is not difficult at all.
The solution is:
1. Boosting rewards/ability to make money [for example: ability to default on more missions 'for free' or something like that]. 2. OR making it more difficult [or reasonable how you prefer it] to disrupt money making Operations...be it through longer scan times for ship probing, a warning system [although I think the latter is silly if the first would be done]
3. OR leaving it as it is, but I am not sure if you are all happy with how populated lowsec is....*shrug*
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Ephemeron
The Dirty Dozen Quarantine Zone
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Posted - 2009.07.12 19:41:00 -
[233]
First, all level 4 missions in high sec should be removed
Second, all level 4 missions in low sec should be boosted to account for "1 Raven lost to pirates every 5 hours". Lets say that, after insurance, the carebear loses 100 million. And lets say he loses his ship once every 5 hours of continuous mission running. So boost mission rewards to give extra 100 mil per 5 hours.
If anyone still complains about risk vs rewards, we know they are simply too stupid to play
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.12 19:48:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Ephemeron First, all level 4 missions in high sec should be removed
Second, all level 4 missions in low sec should be boosted to account for "1 Raven lost to pirates every 5 hours". Lets say that, after insurance, the carebear loses 100 million. And lets say he loses his ship once every 5 hours of continuous mission running. So boost mission rewards to give extra 100 mil per 5 hours.
If anyone still complains about risk vs rewards, we know they are simply too stupid to play
Do the maths, one pirate needs a few minutes to nullify the gain from each mission as you cant really complete it while its camped. If you are not able to remove him that is.
Removing L4 from Highsec....thats a popular idea, but similarly useless. L3s will be farmed then, and lowsec L4s will still be suffering from the described problem above. ofc. 20m additional reward per mission would be nice, IF you can complete it.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.07.12 20:11:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 12/07/2009 17:18:28
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Good probers have always relied on the directional scanner. This is nothing new and it's working as intended.
Santiago,
Even though what you say is correct, pre-Apocrypha there was a need to use probes. A prober needed to actually warp to different locations and drop probes. This allowed the prey enough time to detect them, assuming the prey was paying attention. Now there is absolutely no need to drop probes. So yes, before you could still "probe" someone with the D-scanner, but probes still had a significant role to play. Now you only need 5 seconds to drop a probe and almost instantly get a bookmark. In a sense, the directional scanner has always been broken (overpowered). But the severity of their broken mechanics has only been magnified until recently with the new changes.
Nah, in the old days you could still use the directional scanner first to get close to your target and then drop the shortest range probe (snoop or spook, don't remember). You also only needed one probe, not the 4 probe layout needed these days, which takes some time to put together. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Dagobert Dog
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Posted - 2009.07.12 20:29:00 -
[236]
I do have to aggree to the op.
This is not about risk in lowsec, this is about a currently broken game mechanic.
Its is ok that you can scan people out in space. In fact it is very important that this is posible and it is important that you are able to scan for ships fast. Well, whats the problem than? If you give the hunter the tools to hunt his prey, you have to give the prey some effective tools for self defence. Currently the visibility of probes is under 10 seconds, if the prober is doing his job right. This means the prey has to spam the scan button every few seconds if it wants to detect probes reliable. This is by no means a good game mechanic. In lowsec you still have local as an intel tool, but it still renders mission running/exploration in non empty/blue systems unviable, since you can never tell if there is not an enemy on the front door to your mission. In wormhole space its even worse. If the hunter works right the prey doesnt even know that the hunter is present in system until it is too late. Currently it is still possible to work in w-space since its not very populated. But since more and more people find out how to scan people out without being visible on the preys scanner it gets less viable to do anything in w-space.
Dont get me wrong. I have been on both sides, the hunters and the preys. And since im doing my stuff as hunter well, i know that there is a lack of tools for self defence for the prey.
Dag
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.12 20:57:00 -
[237]
It's been a while since I actually lol'ed at a thread title. Thanks..?
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Mire Stoude
The Undesirables
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Posted - 2009.07.12 21:01:00 -
[238]
You have to adapt... by running missions in high sec. It's the only logical solution to your problem.
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Dagobert Dog
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Posted - 2009.07.12 21:16:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Mire Stoude You have to adapt... by running missions in high sec. It's the only logical solution to your problem.
This might be a solution for mission runners (they already do it since years), but what about for example gas harvesting in wormhole space? You are a sitting duck. You have to sit close to the cloud and can not stay alliend and you are supposed to hit scan every 5 secs as long as you harvest, which can last several hours. I shot quite a few people harvesting gas in w-space and they never had the slightest chance. Sorry, but i think the current combat scan mechanic could break the whole w-space content.
Dag
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.13 22:19:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Nah, in the old days you could still use the directional scanner first to get close to your target and then drop the shortest range probe (snoop or spook, don't remember). You also only needed one probe, not the 4 probe layout needed these days, which takes some time to put together.
And it also took more than 5 seconds for a probe to yield results. That is my point. There could be 100 combat probes out there but if my window to detect them is only 5 seconds out of my entire mission time it doesn't matter. Probing players down is too easy. I know lots of pirates rejoice and applaud the fact that our best tool for detecting predators has now become a button-spamming chore but in the long run it will hurt everyone's bottom line.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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Jimer Lins
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.07.13 22:27:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Nah, in the old days you could still use the directional scanner first to get close to your target and then drop the shortest range probe (snoop or spook, don't remember). You also only needed one probe, not the 4 probe layout needed these days, which takes some time to put together.
But even with maxed skills+rigs that probe had to be in space for at LEAST 23 seconds, and probably longer.
Right now you can get a directional fix on someone to within a very short distance, launch probes from way outside their scanrange, position, click "Scan" and probes warp, then scan. Get a bookmark, recall them instantly. Properly skilled and with a tiny bit of luck you can get a 100% hit on someone with the probes having been visible for 5 seconds.
Killboard - Declarations of War Podcast |
Drykor
Minmatar Reform-Revolt
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Posted - 2009.07.13 22:46:00 -
[242]
Haven't read the entire topic, but I don't see what the problem is. It's not like they actually catch you when they warp inside your mission, if you're aligned (and most mission boats can be aligned) you still instawarp out. You may have to postpone that mission, yeah.
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Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.07.13 23:13:00 -
[243]
I only read the first page, but I'll chip in and say the key to missioning in relative safety in lowsec is being blue with the locals and keeping a good intel channel.
I like how this works and don't want to change it.
I do think it's a tad too easy to scan people. I don't think the scanning is what's broken though, rather, how much of a nuisance it is to remain vigilant (i.e. smash the button every 2 seocnds)
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Boknamar
Gallente The Knights Trevor The Elders Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.13 23:31:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Drykor Haven't read the entire topic, but I don't see what the problem is. It's not like they actually catch you when they warp inside your mission, if you're aligned (and most mission boats can be aligned) you still instawarp out. You may have to postpone that mission, yeah.
That is indeed very sage advice for missions, although less applicable to mining/gas harvesting and hacking/archaeology/salvage sites.
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ollobrains
Aurora Nomads
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Posted - 2009.07.14 04:02:00 -
[245]
lets keep it as is more high sec empire mission runners going pop the better
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Whineroy
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 06:49:00 -
[246]
Originally by: ollobrains lets keep it as is more high sec empire mission runners going pop the better
Indeed, keep it up. Make lowsec missioning extremely dangerous, so that people will avoid missioning in lowsec even more than they already do. Ensure that people have little effective chance against being probed down, force mission runners to use so many team mates that they'd make more ISK grinding missions in empire space.
Just don't afterwards start whining to CCP about lack of targets in lowsec afterwards or how empire-space income needs to be nerfed (I mean, don't start whining to CCP even more than you already do). And if you really have to make such whines, *please* grow a pair and cut away the hypocritical crap about "gameplay balance" with such blatant whines.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.14 16:39:00 -
[247]
Edited by: Exlegion on 14/07/2009 16:39:48
For anyone interested, I have written a petition-style thread under the Assembly Hall to build support to change the system to one requiring less spamming and one that is actually more effective. Please feel free to visit my petition here.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Iece Quaan
Caldari Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.07.14 19:02:00 -
[248]
1. Fix drones so they aren't easier to scan than battleships.
2. Either buff ECCM a bit ONLY with regard to decreasing your effective sig radius for scanning purposes; or create a 'soft-stealth' module that lowers your sig radius in the same way. Trading mission-effictiveness for increased stealth sounds fair to me.
3. Similar to above, only with existing items; fit a ship for mission running that has good sig, doesn't use sig increasing items ( MWD, shield ext ), and doesn't use drones... and saves a mid or two for permarunning ECCM. Think outside the box.
4. Make the scanner auto refresh, but don't let the player control the frequency of update. Calculate the update time by the narrowness of the scan; smaller area = faster update.
----
You really shouldn't be expected to hammer the scan button every 5 seconds. That's unrealistic. Similarly it's unrealistic to say it's balanced when someone can grief players simply by entering local and looking like a threat.
On the other hand, pirates should still pose a threat in this manner and I don't favor options that make it an impossible feat to pull off. Simply put, pirates should catch people that are slipping up. However, 'slipping up' should not equal 'I didn't dock when I saw a neutral in local'.
I DEFINITELY don't endorse increasing the scan processing time; I spend enough time looking at that grey bar already. =P
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.07.14 19:23:00 -
[249]
Unsure if these are your ideas or someone else's as I didn't read every post in the thread. Don't take my comments to heart, I like that people are thinking!
Originally by: Iece Quaan 1. Fix drones so they aren't easier to scan than battleships.
Only if they have their MWDs on
Originally by: Iece Quaan
2. Either buff ECCM a bit ONLY with regard to decreasing your effective sig radius for scanning purposes; or create a 'soft-stealth' module that lowers your sig radius in the same way. Trading mission-effictiveness for increased stealth sounds fair to me.
Interesting and daft, wont affect drones MWD'ing about though
Originally by: Iece Quaan
3. Similar to above, only with existing items; fit a ship for mission running that has good sig, doesn't use sig increasing items ( MWD, shield ext ), and doesn't use drones... and saves a mid or two for permarunning ECCM. Think outside the box.
AB doesn't increase sig
Originally by: Iece Quaan
4. Make the scanner auto refresh, but don't let the player control the frequency of update. Calculate the update time by the narrowness of the scan; smaller area = faster update.
You know that when you update the scanner, you pull info from the server about all objects in some many AU of you right? Multiply that by everyone undocked and 'ouch'
Originally by: Iece Quaan
You really shouldn't be expected to hammer the scan button every 5 seconds. That's unrealistic. Similarly it's unrealistic to say it's balanced when someone can grief players simply by entering local and looking like a threat.
Dock up? cloak till they leave? Go find them and pew pew them before they can do it to you?
Originally by: Iece Quaan
On the other hand, pirates should still pose a threat in this manner and I don't favor options that make it an impossible feat to pull off. Simply put, pirates should catch people that are slipping up. However, 'slipping up' should not equal 'I didn't dock when I saw a neutral in local'.
Alas, so many ships lost for exactly that reason. CCP have a winning formula with this cold harsh environment. It rewards the pirate for their efforts.
Originally by: Iece Quaan
I DEFINITELY don't endorse increasing the scan processing time; I spend enough time looking at that grey bar already. =P
All comes back to the old story of running in gangs with pvp people.
"Hey guys, I'm going to run some missions in <insert place that you clearly don't control as you have visitors to your missions here>, wanna tag along and get some pew pew in?"
If no one is interested and you just wanna run missions, the next step is back to empire some what sadly.
Not my thoughts and desires, just commentary on the reality of the situation for solo mission runners in lowsec / 0.0.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Iece Quaan
Caldari Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.07.14 19:43:00 -
[250]
Well, there needs to be some kind of middle ground struck between 'unprobable/cloaked', and 'collecting insurance payout/uncloaked'.
I mean, the response is currently warp to safe/cloak or dock, both of which involve you staring at the screen waiting for the ganker to get bored. Making the prey's options more interactive in some way would be more fun. I don't operate much in lowsec for this reason; your responses to being hunted essentially amount to play denial, allowing the opponent to grief you without ever seeing you on grid. 'Refusing to play' responses are elements of bad game design.
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DasNara Aethelwulf
Blackwater Syndicate Raining Doom
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Posted - 2009.07.14 19:59:00 -
[251]
Edited by: DasNara Aethelwulf on 14/07/2009 20:02:46 Edited by: DasNara Aethelwulf on 14/07/2009 20:02:39 Edited by: DasNara Aethelwulf on 14/07/2009 20:02:31 There is nothing wrong with the system as it is.... the OP asked for advice, so from a prober to a carebear i have a few sugestions -
use the same rules you would for 0.0 and you'll be safe: -make a series of SS's when you get in system, if you run alot of missions in that system you'll only have to do it once -can at warp in, move away from warp in, the farther the better -you can scan if you want, wont help you -the most important rule in 0.0; nuet in system dock-up, i garentee you are 100% safe, we use it all the time, i've never lost anything -most regions have intel channels, find the one that you are in and join it, or create your own and start tell ppl about it -have a scout at the gate, if you cant you're in a bad corp -if there is no station (???) find a new agent, or put a cloak on your ship, get to your SS and cloak. -use your head -set standings on the ppl that probe you down so you know if they are in sys -dont take anything too expensive -remember, most of the rats that you will have shot at have bounties, so you at least had those before you warp'd away -you are lazy, fix that, use your head. If you were in any of the alliances that i have been in you would have been kicked if you loose your ship after this advice, you will be safe -remeber, no bubbles at gates, warp to 0 if you think your ship can get away -if you are that paranoid, put a hyperspatial on your ship to try to beat pirates to gates....and an aux better agility -prepare yourself for the failmail award on warp drive active if you dont do this!
on a side note, where do you mission run, i train noobs in probing and if you are as lazy as you keep whining that you are i can use you to teach how to find ppl. most of the time, i use core probes and find missioners, dont need the combat unless there are alot of hits in system or you are ss'd...oh, if you dont put a cloak on your bs, warp every 10-30secs
good luck with that high sec gig
-edit for new thought-
My left is in retreat, my center is giving way; situation excellent, I attack - Joffe 1916 |
Usagi Tsukino
Miyazaki Zaibatsu APEX Conglomerate
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Posted - 2009.07.14 20:23:00 -
[252]
As a mission runner I can feel for the OP. Even if you get away or managed to kill your attacker, you're done. You can't complete that mission unless you were done to begin with.
But as someone who was a PvPer; who hunted in low sec, null sec, wormholes... I <3 the new combat probing system. Is it over powered? Depends on who you are. My alt can't probe a mission runner down in 10 seconds, but I can.
If a pirate has taken the time to invest in the skills to get that 100% hit in one scan based on a directional scan guess, well then... He's earned you. He's also risking backup, as my and a corp mate from a previous corp learned first hand once. Both of us left that fight in structure.
My rule when I do exploration in low sec is I always fly in a PvP fit ship. You should to. Quite frankly (puts on flame proof suit) I think mission running in low sec is stupid. The risk way out weighs the reward. Exploration on the other hand....
--- Usagi Tsukino // Miyazaki Zaibatsu
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Haulerboi
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Posted - 2009.07.14 20:29:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Exlegion I'd say having to spam your scan button every 10 seconds or less is more than just a trade-off. It's simply madness and quite unreasonable. I suspect this was a simple oversight from CCP's part. But it would be nice to get an official comment.
Having to spam the scan button is nonsense, it should be set to auto refresh every 1 second or so. If somebody gives me a spaceship in real life and I have to press a damn button to scan, It would take me 5 minutes to rig an RC circuit to it so it auto presses itself every 1 second.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.07.14 21:03:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Haulerboi
Having to spam the scan button is nonsense, it should be set to auto refresh every 1 second or so. If somebody gives me a spaceship in real life and I have to press a damn button to scan, It would take me 5 minutes to rig an RC circuit to it so it auto presses itself every 1 second.
Considering our ships have crews it'd be more of a matter of "Pres butan, reciev vitoc" solution. I'd just have a bunch of slaves hammering the scanner button as fast as they can. Heck, considering it's their butts on the line they'd even look through all the crap in the results and scream bloody murder at the first sign of hostile probes.
Gameplay wise we will just have to wait and see if migration of missioners to highsec and/or mass hammering of scan button is intended. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question? |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.15 12:07:00 -
[255]
Ok, after a conversation with Myra2007 and a good nightÆs rest I realized I have not really done a good job explaining on how the new probing mechanics have lowered the profits of low sec. And for that I sincerely apologize.
In a nutshell: Pre-Apocrypha. Even with the system teeming with pirates and neutrals, as long as there werenÆt probes in sight meant I could continue my mission. I had a decent time to detect probes. They had to be placed manually which meant a better time for detection (certainly not the 5-second window we have now). This translates to extra time to profit.
Post-Apocrypha. 5-second window to detect combat probes is ridiculously improbable to accomplish. Even one neutral in the system means I have to dock my PVE (ie, profit earner) ship because I have no idea whether IÆm being probed with the d-scanner or not. EVEN if I go fight, go twiddle my thumbs, go blob, go grow some balls, my profit is still 0 isk!
Basically, pre-Apocrypha I could still operate in low sec even with pirates and neutrals in the area because my directional scanner was still somewhat reliable in relaying information.
Now, no other precaution I take will help this situation. Yes, dropping a can at warp-in and aligning is all good, but remember, if my mission is busted, even if I manage to get away, my profits hit the floor. So I want to try and keep my deadspace from being probed out. I hope this somewhat clears things a bit to those readers that are genuinely making an attempt to better understand the situation.
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Sorted
Highwaymen
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Posted - 2009.07.15 12:32:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Exlegion but remember, if my mission is busted, even if I manage to get away, my profits hit the floor. So I want to try and keep my deadspace from being probed out. I hope this somewhat clears things a bit to those readers that are genuinely making an attempt to better understand the situation.
THIS is what your whining about. PRE or POST Apoc its the same, your profits drop when your probed out END OF. Whine abotu 1 thing at at time to keep it simple for us idiots.
Button bash scanner OR people busting your mission kills your profits. (Which in the 2nd case SHOULD be a lobby to boost low sec mission rewards to offset the busted loss)
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum Pax Romana Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.15 12:51:00 -
[257]
The implicit assumption by the OP, is that players who are taking reasonable precautions should be able to see scanner probes before the probes have a hit on them.
I don't think that's necessarily a given. It's certainly how things worked before, because of the nature of probes, but now as has been stated it's possible to release the actual scan probes for a period of ten seconds or so before getting the warpable hit.
The main difference between probing now and probing previously, is that knowledge of the target's position in space gives you an advantage with probe placement; previously, you could know for sure that the target ship was exactly between two planets, but without a safespot nearby you couldn't drop probes there. Now, smart probers that are able to get within 14AU of a target can narrow down their position with the direction scanner first, rather than having to narrow down the position with scan probes. The critical difference here is that the same process takes place, but the first part of it is invisible to the ship that's being hunted.
Without wanting to create too much of a strawman, it seems like the OP's logic work as follows:
IF I am not at a celestial object AND There are no probes on scan THEN I am completely safe
He's upset that this no longer holds, and that the presence of probes is no longer a reliable sign that someone is hunting him - therefore, action must be taken so that this situation is restored.
I want to question this assumption. I don't think it's by any means a given that you should be 100% able to detect scan probes of someone who's scanning you down - this worked in the past because of the system, but I don't consider it a fundamental tenet of the risk-reward balance. Especially when you consider that the times noted here only apply to players who find you with the directional scanner initially, pin your location down to a very small degree, memorise this position in relation to the celestial bodies with enough accuracy to place probes around it with a short enough range to get a warpable hit on the first go, warp out out your 14AU scan range, drop the probes, position the probes, scan, and recall probes.
Contrary to what you might think, it certainly takes a savvy (to employ this method rather than just narrowing you down by successive probe hits) and skilful (to translate directional scanner results to an instant 100% probe hit) scanner to pull this off. Against someone who takes the more obvious approach (multiple probe scans), or misses on the first scan (typically will need at least two more scans, the first a wider-range scan to find you and the second to pin you down at 100%), the probes will be in space for much longer.
TL;DR - to my mind, there need be no guarantee that you'll see probes in space trying to find you. You'll probably see them if you scan regularly enough; but this should not be the sole metric you rely on when determining how much risk you're in, and from the sounds of your complaints you're expecting it to be.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.15 15:29:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman [àsnipped for brevityà]
My assumption, and I admit it could be wrong, is that an alert low sec mission runner should have a reasonable and fair chance at knowing when he is being probed out. IÆm not asking for 100% safety or a 100% guarantee that I will see the probes. But what I am saying is a 5-second window is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE and UNACCEPTABLE to me, at least. I keep reading that I want to be in complete safety in low sec and I just donÆt know how to put it any clearer.
IÆM NOT LOOKING TO BE SAFE IN LOW SEC. I want a fair chance at keeping my deadspace mission from being known. Again, I donÆt want a 100% CHANCE THAT my space remains unknown. I WANT A FAIR chance for the ACTIVE, SMART, ALERT player paying attention to their surroundings in low sec. I WANT A FAIR, again, **FAIR** (IÆm emphasizing FAIR) chance. Again, a 5-second window is NOT A FAIR CHANCE. Before Apocrypha I had a fair chance at detecting probes. It wasnÆt 100% safe, but atleast the odds were fair.
So to summarize, I donÆt want 100% safety. I donÆt want to be able to ALWAYS detect probes. I just want a FAIR CHANCE at detecting probes IF I am alert in order to save my mission deadspace so it doesnÆt go to waste.
Pre-Apocrypha I could mission in system even with pirates and neutrals in the system because as long as there werenÆt probes being picked up by my scanner I knew that there was a reasonable probability that I wasnÆt being scanned.
Post-Apocrypha I can no longer take that chance because the odds are OVERWHELMINGLY against me.
I just donÆt know how to put it any clearer. Perhaps someone that does understand what IÆm trying to say could help me out here, as I donÆt think IÆm doing a good job and for the life of me donÆt know how to .
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Sorted
Highwaymen
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Posted - 2009.07.15 17:12:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Sorted
Originally by: Exlegion but remember, if my mission is busted, even if I manage to get away, my profits hit the floor. So I want to try and keep my deadspace from being probed out. I hope this somewhat clears things a bit to those readers that are genuinely making an attempt to better understand the situation.
THIS is what your whining about. PRE or POST Apoc its the same, your profits drop when your probed out END OF. Whine abotu 1 thing at at time to keep it simple for us idiots.
Button bash scanner OR people busting your mission kills your profits. (Which in the 2nd case SHOULD be a lobby to boost low sec mission rewards to offset the busted loss)
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Sorted
Highwaymen
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Posted - 2009.07.15 17:14:00 -
[260]
Edited by: Sorted on 15/07/2009 17:14:03
Originally by: Exlegion Perhaps someone that does understand what IÆm trying to say could help me out here, as I donÆt think IÆm doing a good job and for the life of me donÆt know how to .
I dont think you even know what you want....
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.07.15 17:17:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Exlegion Basically, pre-Apocrypha I could still operate in low sec even with pirates and neutrals in the area because my directional scanner was still somewhat reliable in relaying information.
Why would you think that you have the right to run a mission in hostile space? The system is claimed; it's absurd to think that you should easily be able to go in and steal their resources.
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Feilamya
Pelennor Swarm THE KLINGONS
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Posted - 2009.07.15 17:35:00 -
[262]
And I thought probing anything other than NPCs is too hard or impossible with the new system. Have people finally figured out how scanning works?
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DasNara Aethelwulf
Blackwater Syndicate Raining Doom
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Posted - 2009.07.15 19:52:00 -
[263]
Edited by: DasNara Aethelwulf on 15/07/2009 19:56:07 - "My assumption, and I admit it could be wrong, is that an alert low sec mission runner should have a reasonable and fair chance at knowing when he is being probed out." If there is a neut or red in a low sec sys...you are being hunted...that is your fair and reasonable chance of knowing you are being probed out
- "But what I am saying is a 5-second window is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE and UNACCEPTABLE to me, at least." Read may above post....don't rely on it AT ALL!!! it wont help you
- "I want a fair chance at keeping my deadspace mission from being known." How the **** do you think that is possible...you want an instance, those are not in
the game and should not
- "Again, I donÆt want a 100% CHANCE THAT my space remains unknown." not what you just said
- "I WANT A FAIR chance for the ACTIVE, SMART, ALERT player paying attention to their surroundings in low sec. I WANT A FAIR, again, **FAIR** (IÆm emphasizing FAIR) chance." Read my rules for life in low sec and null sec
- "Pre-Apocrypha I could mission in system even with pirates and neutrals in the system because as long as there werenÆt probes being picked up by my scanner I knew that there was a reasonable probability that I wasnÆt being scanned.Post-Apocrypha I can no longer take that chance because the odds are OVERWHELMINGLY against me." I do understand want you are saying...you want ppl to announce to you that you were being scanned...i can not say this more clearly....if there are combat ships in system...you are being scanned down...just because you didnt see the probes doesnt mean they weren't looking for you.
- "In a nutshell: Pre-Apocrypha. Even with the system teeming with pirates and neutrals, as long as there werenÆt probes in sight meant I could continue my mission. I had a decent time to detect probes. They had to be placed manually which meant a better time for detection (certainly not the 5-second window we have now)"
this statement astounds me...pre-apoc, you had 30 secs to live from the time that i got into the system. if the you saw the probe...i was already next to you and the fleet was in warp...so i'm not sure how you think the new sys sucks...the new sys gives you those few more secs that you are asking for.
- "Post-Apocrypha. 5-second window to detect combat probes is ridiculously improbable to accomplish. Even one neutral in the system means I have to dock my PVE (ie, profit earner) ship because I have no idea whether IÆm being probed with the d-scanner or not." This whole statement...i will refer you to my post about how to fly in low sec above...you should dock with one nuet in sys....if you dont fail mail.
- "Basically, pre-Apocrypha I could still operate in low sec even with pirates and neutrals in the area because my directional scanner was still somewhat reliable in relaying information."
you should not rely on the d-scan m8
- "Now, no other precaution I take will help this situation. Yes, dropping a can at warp-in and aligning is all good, but remember, if my mission is busted, even if I manage to get away, my profits hit the floor."
BOO-HOO
- "So I want to try and keep my deadspace from being probed out."
WHAT!!!! sir i dont think that low sec is for you...you would be happier in high sec
- "I hope this somewhat clears things a bit to those readers that are genuinely making an attempt to better understand the situation." yes it does...you want scouts to announce they are looking for you...and you want your deadspace to not be popped
My left is in retreat, my center is giving way; situation excellent, I attack - Joffe 1916 |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.15 21:46:00 -
[264]
Edited by: Exlegion on 15/07/2009 21:48:16
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Exlegion Basically, pre-Apocrypha I could still operate in low sec even with pirates and neutrals in the area because my directional scanner was still somewhat reliable in relaying information.
Why would you think that you have the right to run a mission in hostile space? The system is claimed; it's absurd to think that you should easily be able to go in and steal their resources.
My friend, low sec isn't alliance space. Low space cannot be "claimed". Albeit hostile, very hostile, it is designed to allow the most capable of players to thrive in it even. Whether it's through solo-piracy or solo mission-running. It is possible to survive in low sec as long as you are extremely careful. I'm not here to debate that. The D-scanner is supposed to be a useful tool for the mission runner along with other tools. At the moment it is broken for us mission runners. I think in the end CCP will review it and tune it to fix the current problem.
What I would like from this thread is ideas on going about a reasonable fix. I don't want things to swing too easy in the direction of the mission runner because that would be game-breaking as well. I think that most readers understand that spamming a button every 5 seconds is not the right implementation. So, where do we go from here? What do you think would be a fair interval to press a button? If CCP does decides to go the 'automated' route, I'd cautious but it might turn out to swing things in the other direction, but meh, I just don't know. Anyway, there have been some good ideas already proposed and I appreciate that. Keep them coming.
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2009.07.15 23:17:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Orivanna There are some of you who are SUPPORTING spamming a button EVERY 3 SECONDS?
They are used to that from WoW. Heck, try raiding as a enhance shaman or a hunter. Spam every GCD (every 1.5s) for 3-5hours. So from their point of view missionrunning carebears SHOULD be expected to spam that much. But it is probably too much to hope that they will realize how wrong it is.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente Buffalo Soldiers
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Posted - 2009.07.15 23:31:00 -
[266]
Missions spawn within a predictable area. Pirates who've been probing systems around a mission hub will soon figure this out, and concentrate their efforts in the region the mission deadspaces spawn. After some days of effort, the pirate will have built up a collection of bookmarks where mission gates were found.
After some more effort this collection can become large enough that all the pirate needs is the directional scanner. When he finds where you are located, he may already have a bookmark that is inside your deadspace. When he warps to it, he lands on the gate.
No probes needed at all. Pirates who already have a large collection of bookmarks won't be affected at all by any changes to probes.
-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.07.15 23:33:00 -
[267]
Combat probes + directional scanner = fine.
This game caters to carebears way too much already, and now you want to be safe mission running in lowsec?
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.16 11:14:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Combat probes + directional scanner = fine.
This game caters to carebears way too much already, and now you want to be safe mission running in lowsec?
They're not fine. Read more than just the title to understand what's going on.
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Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2009.07.16 12:00:00 -
[269]
I moved to low sec and have been running missions there about a month after this character was created (so roughly since 2006) mainly for RP reasons. I lost ONE ship to a gate camp, got probed out a few times but never lost a ship during a mission.
When the Apocrpyha scanning system arrived I did a few test scans and found out how quick you can be located and was worried. Then I did some high-sec missions to fix my standings and realized I could make almost the same if not more ISK in these high-sec almost zero risk missions. There were some Ninja salvagers, but they didn't bother me much.
So I had the choice: stay in low sec, keep spamming the scanner for the duration of the mission and earn only a little bit more, or move to high sec and run missions in safety. Last, spamming the scanner is utterly BORING and annoying. This is a game ffs, if I want to do boring repetetive tasks I stay at work . Thankfully wormholes proved a distraction for some time, but right now I am again evaluating how to continue. I tried to convince new corp members to move to low sec, but there simply was no argument that made low sec attractive enough.
THAT is IMO the biggest issue: the risk/reward ratios are highly skewed in favor of high sec. Why should I go to low sec to earn a little more ISK if it is way less annoying to do that in high sec? If you think this through to the end this results in a "consentual PvP only" environment because only those who look for PvP are going to enter low sec, and IMO that's a big loss for the game.
Thus in my eyes the risk/reward ratio needs to be tweaked, either by making low sec more rewarding, lowering the high sec earnings or reducing the risk factor. Personally I prefer the first option since IMO people who are active and take risks should be rewarded, not the lazy ones penalized - they might be lazy, but they are still customers after all.
As for reducing the risks: IMO the deadspace protection granted by the old system was pretty balanced - I was probed out despite it but it was sufficiently difficult so you were only surprised if you did not watch the scanner. Also a simple filter for probes on the directional scanner would be great since scanning right now is decidedly un-fun - and if I do not have fun in a GAME I move elsewhere (high sec or wormholes in this case).
Right now I am back in high sec since it is not my idea of fun to grind my mouse buttons off in order to survive. If everyone thinks that way low sec and by extension EVE will lose a lot appeal.
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.16 12:04:00 -
[270]
Pytria Le'Danness,
Good post. I enjoyed reading it. It's pretty much the dilemma I'm going through right now. And it's a shame this is the current state we're in. I love Eve. And this is probably my greatest pet peeve about it.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:06:00 -
[271]
This is so easy to avoid.
1. Don't do low-sec missions. 2. Watch pirates whine on forums about no targets in low sec. (nerf level 4 missions, move all ore to low sec, remove high sec space) 3. ??? 4. Profit!
The minute a player enters low-sec, 10 players pop-up to blow him to smithereens.
Gee, I wonder why people stay in high sec
Losing your ship to overwhelming force really isn't much fun.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Kaylan Jahlar
Minmatar Industrial Limited
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:12:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Combat probes + directional scanner = fine.
This game caters to carebears way too much already, and now you want to be safe mission running in lowsec?
There's a difference between wanting lowsec missions to be safe, and wanting to have at least a chance to detect incoming probes.
---- Advanced combat probing guide: A clever use of the directional scanner |
OilSlick Rick
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:35:00 -
[273]
When CCP changed the scanning mechanics, the one skill that reduces scan time became the least important out of them all.
With a regular scan time of just 10 seconds, it became less 'needy' to get that skill up. I think it should perhaps be increased to at least 20 seconds scan time, maybe more, and let the skill reduce it to ten seconds.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:44:00 -
[274]
/finish list
If I see any of those who think it is an awesome "feature" to be able to scan down mission low sec runners and explores without ever giving them a chance of knowing they are being scanned down ever complain about lack of activity in low security space I am going to send Chuck Norris on their ass. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2009.07.16 13:57:00 -
[275]
I run missions to make ISK for other activities. Going to lowsec is a stupid way to try and accomplish that. Even if you escape an interpution, your mission may be compromised and you'll end up in worse shape that when you started the mission. That doesn't even touch the risk of taking an expensive level 4 capable mission ship into lowsec to begin with. Lowesec missioning is just dumb. I can see running lowsec missions for the purpoese of PvP...but that's the only reason I'd bother.
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.07.16 22:26:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Combat probes + directional scanner = fine.
This game caters to carebears way too much already, and now you want to be safe mission running in lowsec?
Look at it like this; they're doing you a favour by missioning in lowsec, when you can get good quality L4 agents in highsec. They're already taking on extra risk for not a lot of reward. So since they're being so nice to you by coming to lowsec at all, don't they deserve a bit more accomodation?
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.16 23:14:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Kaylan Jahlar
Originally by: Omara Otawan Combat probes + directional scanner = fine.
This game caters to carebears way too much already, and now you want to be safe mission running in lowsec?
There's a difference between wanting lowsec missions to be safe, and wanting to have at least a chance to detect incoming probes.
Exactly. Before Apocrypha mission runners had a chance, albeit slim, to protect their deadspace from being known *if* they paid attention. Now it's it's pretty much impossible.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.16 23:19:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Jimer Lins But even with maxed skills+rigs that probe had to be in space for at LEAST 23 seconds, and probably longer.
Right now you can get a directional fix on someone to within a very short distance, launch probes from way outside their scanrange, position, click "Scan" and probes warp, then scan. Get a bookmark, recall them instantly. Properly skilled and with a tiny bit of luck you can get a 100% hit on someone with the probes having been visible for 5 seconds.
really WHO CARES... if you are worried about being probed DO NOT RUN MISSIONS IN LOWSEC i keep saying this but people dont seem to understand it
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.16 23:19:00 -
[279]
Originally by: voogru This is so easy to avoid.
1. Don't do low-sec missions. 2. Watch pirates whine on forums about no targets in low sec. (nerf level 4 missions, move all ore to low sec, remove high sec space) 3. ??? 4. Profit!
The minute a player enters low-sec, 10 players pop-up to blow him to smithereens.
Gee, I wonder why people stay in high sec
Losing your ship to overwhelming force really isn't much fun.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.07.16 23:37:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Exlegion
They're not fine. Read more than just the title to understand what's going on.
They are fine. Read more about how to use ECCM
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.17 00:08:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Exlegion
They're not fine. Read more than just the title to understand what's going on.
They are fine. Read more about how to use ECCM
I already use an ECCM on my ship, the best named for a Caldari ship as a matter of fact. I know what I'm talking about here. I've been running missions pretty much since I started playing in 2005. I've also been living in low sec for over a year. And I also know that an ECCM on a battleship is pretty crap. Nonetheless, I try and take advantage of the little bit it offers.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sorted
Highwaymen
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Posted - 2009.07.17 13:09:00 -
[282]
Edited by: Sorted on 17/07/2009 13:11:48 New system: They bust your mission in under a min, you spot them as they get into your mission, but you are 50k awat and alinged, you dock and stay docked while they are in system (or anyone you dont know - as they could be a cloaker on the entry gate). Isk per hour suffers.
Old System: They try to bust your mission, you spot the probes during the few mins it usualy takes, you warp off and dock so they dont get your mission site (very clever, well done). You dock and stay docked while they are in system (or anyone you dont know - as they could be a cloaker on the entry gate). Isk per hour suffers.
Differneces please? You have to hit the scanner every 5 to TRY and stop them getting your site in instance 1, you have to do it every 30 secs in instance 2. Both end in the same result and your isk/hour suffers. WHICH seems to be the issue. Levy for an isk/mission boost to low sec, you would probably get more support than whining about the scanner.
EDIT: Probing does not equal scannig... NB: You seemed to be complaing about the 5 sec button bash in the OP, but switched to the isk/hour mission busting, can you clarify what the current complaint is please.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.17 14:23:00 -
[283]
Edited by: Exlegion on 17/07/2009 14:26:09
Originally by: Sorted New system: They bust your mission in under a min, you spot them as they get into your mission, but you are 50k awat and alinged, you dock and stay docked while they are in system (or anyone you dont know - as they could be a cloaker on the entry gate). Isk per hour suffers.
Old System: They try to bust your mission, you spot the probes during the few mins it usualy takes, you warp off and dock so they dont get your mission site (very clever, well done). You dock and stay docked while they are in system (or anyone you dont know - as they could be a cloaker on the entry gate). Isk per hour suffers.
See bolds. You pointed the difference yourself. With the old system I could still protect my mission site. With the new system the only way to protect my mission site is by docking. The difference is that if there were neutrals or pirates in the system and they were NOT scanning me I could still remain profitable. Under the new system if there is a neutral or pirate in the system, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT PROBING ME, and this is the important part, I HAVE NO WAY IN KNOWING IF IÆM BEING PROBED, I HAVE TO DOCK MY SHIP. EVEN if theyÆre NOT probing me. Why? Because I cannot take that chance. Why? Because if they WERE probing me THEY BUST MY SITE. <== Pirates busting my site is EXACTLY what IÆm trying to avoid. Why? Because once my mission is busted my profits hit the floor.
Originally by: Sorted Differneces please? You have to hit the scanner every 5 to TRY and stop them getting your site in instance 1, you have to do it every 30 secs in instance 2. Both end in the same result and your isk/hour suffers. WHICH seems to be the issue. Levy for an isk/mission boost to low sec, you would probably get more support than whining about the scanner
Both do not end on the same result because if it happens to be that I was not being probed in the first place I remain profitable in one scenario but not the other. I know itÆs a little difficult to understand. I donÆt blame you, Sorted. But trust me, it makes a difference. IÆm not trying to be an ass here, believe me. I know what you are saying and I understand it 100%. But you are not making the connection between profits and how the new scanning system has screwed with it in low sec.
Quote: EDIT: Probing does not equal scannig...
I know this. And itÆs why players should scan with their scanners and probe with their probers. As it is you can ôprobeö (I use quotations because of technicality) with your D-scanner.
Quote: NB: You seemed to be complaing about the 5 sec button bash in the OP, but switched to the isk/hour mission busting, can you clarify what the current complaint is please.
The reason I emphasized on the 5-second smashing issue is so that people can understand that using the D-scanner is no longer a reliable tool for the mission runner. If I didnÆt stress that there would be people telling me ôUse the D-scanner to detect probes!ö. So before getting into why my profits have been affected by the broken D-Scanner I needed people to understand WHY the D-scanner is broken. In my arguments my goal was to get you to C. But before getting you to C I needed you to go through A, and then to B. Think of A as ôScanner is broken. Why? Because 5-second isnÆtàö. Think of B as ôBecause the scanner is broken I can no longer take this chanceàö. Think of C as ôBecause I can no longer that chance my profits have hit the floorö. I think you pretty much have arguments A, B, and C figured out but youÆre still not making the connection that A leads to B leads to C. Does this clear things up a bit?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sorted
Highwaymen
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Posted - 2009.07.17 14:37:00 -
[284]
So in summary, IF you know your being probed, you dock and cant complete while they are in local (old system)
IF you carry on UNTIL you are probed (as you cant tell till they land) you warp off as you are nicely 50k away alinged. and you cant complete while they are in local.
Result is the same as far as I can see.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:33:00 -
[285]
Example:
Pre-Apocrypha 1. Event: Neutral enters system. I donÆt know if heÆs a pirate or not. 2. Action: Keep doing missions until probes are spotted on my scanner (i.e., profit). 3. Result: Mission deadspace remains unknown.
Post-Apocrypha 1. Event: Neutral enters system. I donÆt know if heÆs a pirate or not. 2. Action: Dock (i.e., NO PROFIT FOR U!) 3. Result: Mission deadspace remains unknown.
Event is the same. The result is the same. The action, however, is NOT the same. I canÆt put it any simpler than that.
Anyway, weÆre going in circles. Your next reply will be for me to stay aligned to which IÆll reply I want a way to keep my mission location unknown. Then you will reply I should use the scanner, to which IÆll reply the scanner is no longer a reliable tool. To which youÆll say it was the same way before Apocrypha. Then I will tell you before Apocrypha I had a better chance at detecting probes. And then youÆll, again, tell me to just stay aligned and IÆll be fine, and weÆll be right back where we started.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sanimya
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Posted - 2009.07.17 19:43:00 -
[286]
Couple of things:
1 - If they hit your site, chances are your mission will be busted whether you stay docked until they leave local or not. If they kill your mission objective, take your mission objective loot, whatever - you fail your mission with all of the consequences including loss of mission rewards and the standings hit. If you protect your site, at least you have a chance to wait it out and at least finish your mission. Too many interrupted missions where you fail and you're going to be doing level 3's again somewhere else anyway.
2 - So many really good posts in here on both sides of the issue, I'm impressed. Disregarding the "all mission runners must die because it makes me feel good" type posts, of course. As many have pointed out, most of us play games because we want to have fun and a large part of having fun is the feeling of accomplishment. So it doesn't really matter, or it shouldn't anyway, whether you are accomplishing things through piracy, missioning, mining or whatever other options you have available to you. It's simply stupid to be bashing someone else because the way they have fun isn't what you would chose for yourself. If it's a valid option in the game, why does it bother you so much that someone makes that choice? I see posts from people who want to take all of the ability to make choices away from people who want to play differently from the way they do and it boggles my mind. Can you possibly believe that if people are forced to play in a fashion that's not fun for them they are going to keep on paying money just to provide entertainment to you? Some of you seem to view the defenseless mission runners or miners as the equivalent of the mobs in the standard fantasy MMO - an endless number of them should be provided for you to slaughter.
Personally, I like PvP and I like a little excitement in my game play but what I see happening now in EVE has nothing to do with PvP or skill in most cases and it's neither fun nor exciting. I certainly won't do missions in low sec because of #1, above. There's absolutely no point to it. I've gotten very reluctant to do exploration for pretty much the same reason. I can't conceive of how people enjoy killing a defenseless target or why, when the target objects, some of you get almost obscene enjoyment out of their frustration. I can't do any PvE activity in low/null/W space because the fittings on my ship leave me totally vulnerable to your PvP fit ships. If I fit for PvP, I can't survive the rats. The normal scenario is you find me, before I have time to react I've been tackled and basically tied in place. However, at that point if I could at least fight you, I'd feel ok if I lost. But once you have me tackled and shackled, in warp your 4-5 friends in marauders to make the kill. I have zero chance of survival, there's no interesting tests of skill, nothing but a ganking. Kind of about as exciting as shooting rats in a cage, at least from my perspective.
EVE is supposed to be a harsh environment where those who are willing to take the risks can reap the rewards. We as a player base should have the common sense to realize that without people of varying play styles, there will be no EVE! Things have to have some balance. The explorer has to have enough chance of success to take the risk. The pirate has to have enough chance of finding prey to justify his patience and his skills. The mission runner must have an opportunity to protect his mission location and a chance of completing the mission, or there's no point in starting.
Personally, I would like to see a balance between the PvP and PvE fittings which would enable us to meet on more equal footing when our paths should cross unexpectedly in space.
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Boknamar
Gallente The Knights Trevor The Elders Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.17 23:16:00 -
[287]
Edited by: Boknamar on 17/07/2009 23:17:28
Originally by: SK Rooster
really WHO CARES... if you are worried about being probed DO NOT RUN MISSIONS IN LOWSEC i keep saying this but people dont seem to understand it
Do you realize how absurd it is to allege that so many people can fail to understand such a simple sentence? Or maybe you're right, it's not you who's misrepresenting and/or oversimplifying the issue. It's everyone else who just can't grasp simplistic concepts.
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DasNara Aethelwulf
Blackwater Syndicate Raining Doom
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Posted - 2009.07.18 01:48:00 -
[288]
Edited by: DasNara Aethelwulf on 18/07/2009 01:48:18
Originally by: Exlegion Example:
Pre-Apocrypha 1. Event: Neutral enters system. I donÆt know if heÆs a pirate or not. 2. Action: Keep doing missions until probes are spotted on my scanner (i.e., profit). 3. Result: Mission deadspace remains unknown.
Post-Apocrypha 1. Event: Neutral enters system. I donÆt know if heÆs a pirate or not. 2. Action: Dock (i.e., NO PROFIT FOR U!) 3. Result: Mission deadspace remains unknown.
Event is the same. The result is the same. The action, however, is NOT the same. I canÆt put it any simpler than that.
Anyway, weÆre going in circles. Your next reply will be for me to stay aligned to which IÆll reply I want a way to keep my mission location unknown. Then you will reply I should use the scanner, to which IÆll reply the scanner is no longer a reliable tool. To which youÆll say it was the same way before Apocrypha. Then I will tell you before Apocrypha I had a better chance at detecting probes. And then youÆll, again, tell me to just stay aligned and IÆll be fine, and weÆll be right back where we started.
I feel for you ExLegion, i do. But you are first, operating under a false impression. Pre Apoc, most, if not all, the mission runners i was asked to probe down i used the sys/multi to find the deadspace, not the combat. Second, the idea that your mission will not be found. What you are asking will NEVER happen. We do not have instances, thats what you are asking for. I'm sorry, they wont do that...if it's in the sys, they can find it. I'm sorry that this was the point that you were trying to make. So, the only thing that i can say to you is read my post at the top of page 9 about what to do so you stay alive. At least other missioners can read that. good luck with that, i dont thin that you will get resolution on it that you are lookinng for.
My left is in retreat, my center is giving way; situation excellent, I attack - Joffe 1916 |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.18 02:12:00 -
[289]
Originally by: DasNara Aethelwulf I feel for you ExLegion, i do. But you are first, operating under a false impression. Pre Apoc, most, if not all, the mission runners i was asked to probe down i used the sys/multi to find the deadspace, not the combat. Second, the idea that your mission will not be found. What you are asking will NEVER happen. We do not have instances, thats what you are asking for. I'm sorry, they wont do that...if it's in the sys, they can find it. I'm sorry that this was the point that you were trying to make. So, the only thing that i can say to you is read my post at the top of page 9 about what to do so you stay alive. At least other missioners can read that. good luck with that, i dont thin that you will get resolution on it that you are lookinng for.
I have never asked for my mission not to be found. What I have asked for is a reasonable chance at being able to protect it other than me having to dock every time a neutral passes by my system. I want probes to last longer than just 5 seconds in space. This alone fixes the mess that probing is now. All CCP has to do is increase the time combat probes spend in space so that an alert mission runner paying attention has a reasonable chance at detecting them. Notice how I have NOT said I should be able to detect them ALWAYS. What I am merely asking for is a reasonable chance at detecting them. Again, a 5-second window is bull**** and I think you and everyone else knows this. But you insist in claiming that I am asking for complete safety or that IÆm lazy, or other elite player mantra.
Those of you supporting this nonsense know it. The system is broken. Most likely this is an oversight from CCPÆs part and it will be corrected. If it isnÆt fixed, it will further desolate low sec. And even if some of you refuse to think of the long term consequences that this brings to low sec it doesnÆt mean it wonÆt impact your bottom line in the long run.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Sorted
Highwaymen
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Posted - 2009.07.18 09:19:00 -
[290]
Edited by: Sorted on 18/07/2009 09:20:27
Originally by: Exlegion Example:
Pre-Apocrypha 1. Event: Neutral enters system. I donÆt know if heÆs a pirate or not. 2. Action: Keep doing missions until probes are spotted on my scanner (i.e., profit). 3. Result: Mission deadspace remains unknown.
Post-Apocrypha 1. Event: Neutral enters system. I donÆt know if heÆs a pirate or not. 2. Action: Dock (i.e., NO PROFIT FOR U!) 3. Result: Mission deadspace remains unknown.
Event is the same. The result is the same. The action, however, is NOT the same. I canÆt put it any simpler than that.
Anyway, weÆre going in circles. Your next reply will be for me to stay aligned to which IÆll reply I want a way to keep my mission location unknown. Then you will reply I should use the scanner, to which IÆll reply the scanner is no longer a reliable tool. To which youÆll say it was the same way before Apocrypha. Then I will tell you before Apocrypha I had a better chance at detecting probes. And then youÆll, again, tell me to just stay aligned and IÆll be fine, and weÆll be right back where we started.
here:
Pre-Apocrypha 1. Event: Neutral enters system. I donÆt know if heÆs a pirate or not. 2. Action: Keep doing missions until probes are spotted on my scanner (i.e., profit until probes spotted). (If hes looking for you u'll know about it) 3. Result: Mission deadspace remains unknown. (But you remain docked until he leaves!)
Post-Apocrypha 1. Event: Neutral enters system. I donÆt know if heÆs a pirate or not. He warps into my mission, hits ma jet can, I warp off (I.E, profit until you see him in the mission) 2. Action: dock (you remain docked until he leaves! If its a trap then you just aling and watch local) 3. Result: Mission deadspace IS busted, but PROFIT STAYS THE SAME.
The only difference between the busted mission/non busted mission IS NOT the isk/hour but it IS the point that the pirate could choose to kill your objetives - if he knew what the hell the mission was, could be botherd and didnt scretly enjoy - kinda like dressing up in womens clothes. ( I make no accusations here Skunk - was just citing an exmaple is all)
As long as your careful it doesnt matter if the site is comprimised - the ISK /Hour on each situtation CAN be very very similar.
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hired goon
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Posted - 2009.07.18 12:25:00 -
[291]
As a prober and killer of innocents myself, I have to say it's a bit silly in the current system. You have to press 'scan' on the directional every five seconds, which is a silly gameplay mechanic for any game. There are different ways this problem could be looked at - maybe by making different ships varyingly adept at detecting scanprobes or people using their directional. -omg-
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar Sekret Kool Klubb
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Posted - 2009.07.18 12:33:00 -
[292]
You could always warp out at the sign of a ship entering your mission, esp if you have jumpgate entry points.
--- Spank got forum muted QQ |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.22 01:08:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Bongo Debbie You could always warp out at the sign of a ship entering your mission, esp if you have jumpgate entry points.
---
Once the mission location has been compromised it becomes a loss to the mission runner. I have even offered pirates ransom isk to allow me to finish compromised missions to which they all have flatly rejected, leaving me no choice but to default on them and take the standings hit. They were more concerned about having me take a standings hit than accepting isk .
Anyway, I've been receiving some war-dec threats via evemail from what I can only assume are "hardcore pirates" mainly because of my stance on the issue and for bringing this whole matter into light. At first it was amusing in a cute childish kind of way. Feel free to follow up; no need for more eve-mails.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Eisland
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Posted - 2009.07.22 01:58:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Bongo Debbie You could always warp out at the sign of a ship entering your mission, esp if you have jumpgate entry points.---
You can also stay docked and stop paying subscription. What bingobongo argumentaion ist that? Ever tried running missions warping out every time a probe appears on scan? Sure You can stay inside and risk being popped plus a nice standing loss or start the whole game after a dt. Kool thang. -- Additionally to the harder to spot, faster probing the more important question is:
Why does deadspace give no more hamper to probing!?
This must again be unintentional. It only helps the numbers (napfest mission hubs) and screws over low- and 0.0-mission running.
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Righteous Gun
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Posted - 2009.07.22 10:10:00 -
[295]
spamming the scan button wouldnt be so terrible IF YOU HAD A GROUP FOR SCAN PROBES INSTEAD OF HAVING TO SCROLL THROUGH EVERY LAST BIT OF SPACE TRASH.
it's annoying
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.22 10:42:00 -
[296]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/07/2009 10:43:22 Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/07/2009 10:42:19 Ok ive worked out a fix
OLD SYSTEM: Exlegion Approved.
Exlegion spams scan every 22 seconds for probes. Exlegion is happy with this.
NEW SYSTEM: EXlegion No likey.
Exlegion spams scan ever 5 seconds. Exlegion suffering from hurt wrists.
How about a happy medium of 13 second probe times
Its all about the compromise kids.
SKUNK (o)
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.22 11:47:00 -
[297]
This thread is wonderful
Personally I think the current system works pretty damn well, if you're not ready to deal with other players in an area of space where other players are to be expected..well.. that's not the system's failing is it?
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.22 11:57:00 -
[298]
Edited by: Exlegion on 22/07/2009 11:58:35 Benco97,
Oh I have no doubt that those on the other side of the fence find this mechanic working wonderfully. But would you feel the same if *your* profession required you to smash a button every 5 seconds in order to do it properly? Would it still be working lovely and as intended?
Or Le Skunk,
To put it a way you could better understand, how would you feel if camping gates required you to spam the button every 5 seconds nonstop hours on end in order to do it right?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 12:26:00 -
[299]
[Loki, New Setup 3] Domination Gyrostabilizer Domination Gyrostabilizer Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
Gallente Navy 10MN Afterburner Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Conjunctive Ladar ECCM Scanning Array I
425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M 425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M 425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M 425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M 425mm AutoCannon II, Fusion M
Projectile Ambit Extension II Projectile Ambit Extension II Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I
Loki Defensive - Amplification Node Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array Loki Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Loki Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Warrior II x5
what seems to be the problem...? - putting the gist back into logistics |
Eisland
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:07:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider ..
I want more life, ******.
loldamage 3B+ ships are not the solution, scanproof or not. Neat way to force people into shipclasses.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:53:00 -
[301]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/07/2009 16:56:00
Originally by: Exlegion
Or Le Skunk,
To put it a way you could better understand, how would you feel if camping gates required you to spam the button and go over results every 5 seconds nonstop hours on end in order to do it right?
I do.
Or at least someone in gang is doing it. In fact its worse for PvPers as being probed out in a SS you have no acceleration gates (of which mission runners can have one or more) and i cant simply fly 50km away from my SS and align out like a mission runner can.
Shock Horror - Other people have it worse then you and are not moaning on the forums!!!!
If you wernt such a greedy isk farming solo player (in a one man corp) - you could share the risk and the legwork required to protect yourself by joining a corp - or recruiting for your own and work together.
But oh noes - your profit loss!!!!!!!!!!!!
SKUNK
(o)
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Nyveg
Hyperborea Re
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Posted - 2009.07.22 20:53:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 22/07/2009 16:56:00
Originally by: Exlegion
Or Le Skunk,
To put it a way you could better understand, how would you feel if camping gates required you to spam the button and go over results every 5 seconds nonstop hours on end in order to do it right?
I do.
Or at least someone in gang is doing it. In fact its worse for PvPers as being probed out in a SS you have no acceleration gates (of which mission runners can have one or more) and i cant simply fly 50km away from my SS and align out like a mission runner can.
Shock Horror - Other people have it worse then you and are not moaning on the forums!!!!
If you wernt such a greedy isk farming solo player (in a one man corp) - you could share the risk and the legwork required to protect yourself by joining a corp - or recruiting for your own and work together.
But oh noes - your profit loss!!!!!!!!!!!!
SKUNK
There are tons of missions without gates. While in a deadpace you have to deal with alot of aggro sometimes, tacklers too. Often the gates are cascaded so you will have to come back to a gate and wont be aligned. Clear to me who has the advantage here, cloaked tackler or mission-bs.
I just imagine a skunk sitting on gate or ss hitting the "scan" button all the time with a blank stare to get your idea of pvp. And ofcourse other guys beside holding your hand.
CCP please give the guy a pocket gate to deadspace he can bring out on safespot. Maybe then he limits his grieving to the game instead of calling mission runners names who venture out of high-sec and in a polite manner bring up issues.
Your credibility loss!!!!1111
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Llurandia
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Posted - 2009.07.22 20:59:00 -
[303]
Seems a simple issue - complaint exists that others can find you. Solution is to venture into dangerous waters with enough friends so that when the wolves come, they flee or die. This is not a game-balance issue, exploit, or anything else - it is a simple matter that venturing into lawless space by one's self is a danger. Make friends, join a corp, go into 0.0 or wormhole space with lots of friends. There is nothing broken, nothing needing to be fixed.
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Boknamar
Gallente The Knights Trevor The Elders Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.22 21:34:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Llurandia Seems a simple issue - complaint exists that others can find you.
That seems like the kind of solid conclusion one comes to by reading only the thread title. I really don't like accusing people of not reading, but whether you agree or disagree with the OP, it's a mystery to me how you can manage to distill the issue into this kind of oversimplification if you've read at least some of the arguments and counter-arguments. |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.22 21:43:00 -
[305]
Ignore Le Skunk, he's one of those guys in the forum that hates people. No real reason. He just hates people. Period.
He calls me a greedy isk farmer because I have my fun in collecting isk. He has his fun in collecting killboard kills. Mind you, in the end they're both pixels, but for some reason which I really could care less my style of play boils his veins.
Anyway, we're derailing a bit. What I would like to see is solutions to the problem. I think most of us agree that there needs to be a balance which doesn't require smashing the scan button every 5 seconds. I want to continue missioning in low sec. I really do. The dangers there are fine except they're so often and now so against my style that my isk-making has crept almost to a hault. This just isn't good for low sec.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.07.22 22:07:00 -
[306]
Originally by: Exlegion Ignore Le Skunk, he's one of those guys in the forum that hates people. No real reason. He just hates people. Period.
He calls me a greedy isk farmer because I have my fun in collecting isk. He has his fun in collecting killboard kills. Mind you, in the end they're both pixels, but for some reason which I really could care less my style of play boils his veins.
Anyway, we're derailing a bit. What I would like to see is solutions to the problem. I think most of us agree that there needs to be a balance which doesn't require smashing the scan button every 5 seconds. I want to continue missioning in low sec. I really do. The dangers there are fine except they're so often and now so against my style that my isk-making has crept almost to a hault. This just isn't good for low sec.
I like Le Skunk, even tho we never were on friendly terms, I respect his style
I think what "boils his veins" is the fact that a no-name carebear like you coming here and demanding game changes that effect PvP and try change HIS ability to play the game the way he wants to. You, who openly declares you want nothing to do with pvp, want to change pvp for others.
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Doctor Penguin
Amarr Heavy Influence Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 22:12:00 -
[307]
Obviously it should be totally impossible to make money in Lowsec. That's what Highsec is for, right?
Right? ________________________________________________
Originally by: CCP Soundwave Get out Mindstar, or I'll punch you in the ovaries. |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.22 22:26:00 -
[308]
Edited by: Exlegion on 22/07/2009 22:28:38
Originally by: Ephemeron I think what "boils his veins" is the fact that a no-name carebear like you coming here and demanding game changes that effect PvP and try change HIS ability to play the game the way he wants to. You, who openly declares you want nothing to do with pvp, want to change pvp for others.
Do you even know what is being discussed here? Have you even bothered reading the thread? Or are you just going to save your time and tell me to stop being lazy and greedy like the rest of the elite players that abound these forums?
Hell, you can say it as many times as you like that having to smash a button and go over results every 5 seconds is good game mechanics, after all I'm willing to bet you're benefitting from this nonsense. But I have my right to come bring it to the attention of the community. If it isn't so then feel free to report me. Or feel free to hate me. Either way I'm not concerned. If you don't like it, too bad. I'm here to ask for opinions to those that DO CARE about balance and do care about fixing the problem.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.22 22:56:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Doctor Penguin Obviously it should be totally impossible to make money in Lowsec. That's what Highsec is for, right?
Right?
Exactly! I don't think I'm out of line for questioning a mechanic that pretty much has killed profit-making via missioning in low sec. I expect people to come troll me and insult me. I expect people like Le Skunk to hate me in real life and use ad hominems to attack me personally. Bring it. You're free to do so. But I have just as much right to question this technique as Le Skunk has a right to insult me personally all he wants. I respect your right and I ask you repect mine.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Ritter Roland
|
Posted - 2009.07.22 23:32:00 -
[310]
Edited by: Ritter Roland on 22/07/2009 23:31:42
Originally by: Ephemeron
I like Le Skunk, even tho we never were on friendly terms, I respect his style. I think what "boils his veins" is the fact that a no-name carebear like you coming here and demanding game changes that effect PvP and try change HIS ability to play the game the way he wants to. You, who openly declares you want nothing to do with pvp, want to change pvp for others.
*facepalm*
please just shut up.
theres a stupid game mechanic in place that forces players to hit the scan button every 5 seconds. what part of this sentence did you fail to understand
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.07.23 00:01:00 -
[311]
I support the auto-scan feature for direction, to remove manual clicking.
I believe that is going to be implemented with the general local nerf - along with other improvements to game. We should encourage CCP to hurry up with the local nerf so we can get these changes
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 04:43:00 -
[312]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/07/2009 04:44:37
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Doctor Penguin Obviously it should be totally impossible to make money in Lowsec. That's what Highsec is for, right?
Right?
Exactly! I don't think I'm out of line for questioning a mechanic that pretty much has killed profit-making via missioning in low sec. I expect people to come troll me and insult me. I expect people like Le Skunk to hate me in real life and use ad hominems to attack me personally. Bring it. You're free to do so. But I have just as much right to question this technique as Le Skunk has a right to insult me personally all he wants. I respect your right and I ask you repect mine.
Im not insulting you in RL. And its a game, nobody should be hating over a game - yove been in a one man corp to long - chill out.
Your ignoring ALL the points put to you. Your ignoring the responses to questions youve asked of others and which they have responded to.
Weve ascertained you were perfectly happy with the old system (22 second scan spam) and are woefuly unhappy (after the 4 months it took you to notice) with the 5 second spam time.
22 seconds good - 5 seconds bad.
Seriously this thread is a farce.
SKUNK (o)
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.23 06:51:00 -
[313]
Originally by: Le Skunk Weve ascertained you were perfectly happy with the old system (22 second scan spam) and are woefuly unhappy (after the 4 months it took you to notice) with the 5 second spam time.
22 seconds good - 5 seconds bad.
Seriously this thread is a farce.
SKUNK
We can agree that a game mechanic that requires you to periodically spam a button, otherwise you die, is bad, right?
Even though this is not amusing in any case. Spamming every 22 seconds is doable (but boring!). Spamming every five seconds is not. You have to recognize that difference.
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.07.23 07:11:00 -
[314]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Exlegion Ignore Le Skunk, he's one of those guys in the forum that hates people. No real reason. He just hates people. Period.
He calls me a greedy isk farmer because I have my fun in collecting isk. He has his fun in collecting killboard kills. Mind you, in the end they're both pixels, but for some reason which I really could care less my style of play boils his veins.
Anyway, we're derailing a bit. What I would like to see is solutions to the problem. I think most of us agree that there needs to be a balance which doesn't require smashing the scan button every 5 seconds. I want to continue missioning in low sec. I really do. The dangers there are fine except they're so often and now so against my style that my isk-making has crept almost to a hault. This just isn't good for low sec.
I like Le Skunk, even tho we never were on friendly terms, I respect his style
I think what "boils his veins" is the fact that a no-name carebear like you coming here and demanding game changes that effect PvP and try change HIS ability to play the game the way he wants to. You, who openly declares you want nothing to do with pvp, want to change pvp for others.
Well said.
-murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 15:21:00 -
[315]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/07/2009 15:25:57 Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/07/2009 15:21:49
Originally by: Nareg Maxence
Originally by: Le Skunk Weve ascertained you were perfectly happy with the old system (22 second scan spam) and are woefuly unhappy (after the 4 months it took you to notice) with the 5 second spam time.
22 seconds good - 5 seconds bad.
Seriously this thread is a farce.
SKUNK
We can agree that a game mechanic that requires you to periodically spam a button, otherwise you die, is bad, right?
Even though this is not amusing in any case. Spamming every 22 seconds is doable (but boring!). Spamming every five seconds is not. You have to recognize that difference.
Yes we could agree that. But as the OP HIMSELF has pointed out - if you follow simple rules - you dont die - you warp out. As the OP himself phrases it he is SEEKING TO PROTECT HIS DEADSPACE PROFIT. Protecting the site itself. And I would posit it isnt "HIS" site to protect - or it wouldn't be scannable by the general public.
So the whole argument now revolves around the exact click per minute ratio. What level would the carebear be happy with. Should it be 6.25 seconds? Should it be 11.16 seconds? Should it be 19.25 seconds?
Dont forget that with each increment you are making logofski easier (though i expect despite protestation from the carebear about "broken game mechanics" when it comes to the ship scanner - the indirect boosting of another broken mechanic (logofski) wont bother them)
also
Dont forget that with each increment, you are making exploration harder and breaking CCPs new content. Incresing the result time to the levels that exlegion was happy with (exlegion of course dosent care about pilots interested in exploration - as it involves a game style different to churning out lv4 missions) would make exploring a system NEARLY 5 TIMES LONGER then it is now.
But the OP either dosent give two hoots about anyone, other then himself, in his one man corp, churning out the same lv4s again and again and again OR he simply so self centered that he lacks the perspective to see what his mewing would do to other people.
He dosent care which other professions he will hurt with his demands to make his easier.
Which is why his postings are disliked by the vast majority of readers.
SKUNK
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BIZZAROSTORMY
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 16:13:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/07/2009 15:25:57 Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/07/2009 15:21:49
Originally by: Nareg Maxence
Originally by: Le Skunk Weve ascertained you were perfectly happy with the old system (22 second scan spam) and are woefuly unhappy (after the 4 months it took you to notice) with the 5 second spam time.
22 seconds good - 5 seconds bad.
Seriously this thread is a farce.
SKUNK
We can agree that a game mechanic that requires you to periodically spam a button, otherwise you die, is bad, right?
Even though this is not amusing in any case. Spamming every 22 seconds is doable (but boring!). Spamming every five seconds is not. You have to recognize that difference.
Yes we could agree that. But as the OP HIMSELF has pointed out - if you follow simple rules - you dont die - you warp out. As the OP himself phrases it he is SEEKING TO PROTECT HIS DEADSPACE PROFIT. Protecting the site itself. And I would posit it isnt "HIS" site to protect - or it wouldn't be scannable by the general public.
So the whole argument now revolves around the exact click per minute ratio. What level would the carebear be happy with. Should it be 6.25 seconds? Should it be 11.16 seconds? Should it be 19.25 seconds?
Dont forget that with each increment you are making logofski easier (though i expect despite protestation from the carebear about "broken game mechanics" when it comes to the ship scanner - the indirect boosting of another broken mechanic (logofski) wont bother them)
also
Dont forget that with each increment, you are making exploration harder and breaking CCPs new content. Incresing the result time to the levels that exlegion was happy with (exlegion of course dosent care about pilots interested in exploration - as it involves a game style different to churning out lv4 missions) would make exploring a system NEARLY 5 TIMES LONGER then it is now.
But the OP either dosent give two hoots about anyone, other then himself, in his one man corp, churning out the same lv4s again and again and again OR he simply so self centered that he lacks the perspective to see what his mewing would do to other people.
He dosent care which other professions he will hurt with his demands to make his easier.
Which is why his postings are disliked by the vast majority of readers.
SKUNK
Just idly reading this thread.
Le Skunk, if you want people to take you seriously, you need to write less emotionally and stop using insults etc because it just makes you sound like a child. |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 16:46:00 -
[317]
Edited by: Exlegion on 23/07/2009 16:50:12
Le Skunk,
Be honest. YouÆre not fooling anyone. I ignore most of your posts, not only on this thread but on many others that I may not even post in, because you usually have nothing productive to say. And also, forgive me for saying this so bluntly, you tend to lie. A lot.
IÆm in low sec to make a profit. Low sec is supposed to be about higher risk AND higher rewards. Well, I definitely see the higher risk but I'm not seeing the rewards much less higher rewards. And for the umpteenth time I am not asking for 100% protection or 100% safety. So I will ask you something that I know and quite frankly expect you not to do. Stop lying. I want a system that is fair to mission running. I also want a system that is fair to pirating. As it is the system is not reasonable.
With that said, I would like to address two issues you brought up. First, my concern is with combat probes, not core probes. Core probes and even deep space probes have no bearing in this thread and therefore are inconsequential. Any changes made to combat probes will not in any way affect the exploration profession. I am not saying that exploration doesnÆt have its own short-comings and issues. And itÆs not that I donÆt care about exploration as you have accused me of. I happen to enjoy exploration myself. But I cannot speak of exploration like I am an expert on it because quite frankly I am not. I rather let an expert in exploration write a thread on how exploration could be better-tweaked.
As to your comment on log-offs during comba. First, if someone logged off I donÆt think this person cares on whether combat probes are showing up in the scanner or not. They logged off. ItÆs not like theyÆll be keeping an eye on them. Also, from what I understand, if a person logs off un-aggressed they warp to a random spot 1 AU away. YouÆll still be able to probe them down exactly the same way and in the same time. The problem is when someone is probing me with their scanner from 14 AUs away and only using the probe launcher for 5 seconds to get a hit on me. What I am asking is for CCP to review this current process (scanner versus combat probes). In other words, it would be nice if people scanned with their scanner and probed with their probes. In no significant way would this affect ôlogoffskiesö.
People have put forth some good ideas so far. Right now there is a problem with the mechanics and I have brought it to light. And I feel that most people understand the problem and for that I am thankful. If I have missed something feel free to bring it up and point out. What I do not appreciate is you personally attacking me and accusing me of things that just arenÆt true. And I will say this again, not for you but to the avid reader: I am not asking for complete safety or even a fail-safe way to detect probes. What I ask for is a reasonable chance at detecting them before my mission is busted. What I am asking for to be able to make a profit in low sec.
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Tread Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 17:02:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Which is why his postings are disliked by the vast majority of readers.
Actually for me at least it is you that comes across as a complete idiot, in this and just about every thread you've ever posted in.
|
Zora
Gallente Vector Industries
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 17:23:00 -
[319]
Edited by: Zora on 23/07/2009 17:23:35 I've said this before 1-2 years ago in a different thread about a similar issue; that being that you can't filter for combat probes in the overview, so you have to scroll through an endless list of garbage floating around near you before you find any probes on the scanner.
My point then was, that a bad user-interface symptom should never be made into a crucial gameplay feature. This is very similar, having to do something manually that a machine could do very well and better on it's own, in a science fiction universe, just doesn't make a lot of sense. A real pod pilot in a real spaceship would not be hitting buttons all the time, he would write a script that does it automatically every so often (or just hit the button that says "Keep scanning you moron" ;) RP issues aside (I know, I know, stop flaming about that), this is really a symptom of EVE's bad UI design decisions, just one where you notice it more.
In a perfect EVE there would be no local, there would be an automatic directional scanner probing around on your ship, which displays uncloaked targets/probes in your vicinity, depending on your filters. You could fit better scanners (with more range), but this would cost high slots, etc. Then again this will probably never happen, but one can still hope :) |
Nareg Maxence
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 17:45:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Yes we could agree that. But as the OP HIMSELF has pointed out - if you follow simple rules - you dont die - you warp out. As the OP himself phrases it he is SEEKING TO PROTECT HIS DEADSPACE PROFIT. Protecting the site itself. And I would posit it isnt "HIS" site to protect - or it wouldn't be scannable by the general public.
So the whole argument now revolves around the exact click per minute ratio. What level would the carebear be happy with. Should it be 6.25 seconds? Should it be 11.16 seconds? Should it be 19.25 seconds?
Dont forget that with each increment you are making logofski easier (though i expect despite protestation from the carebear about "broken game mechanics" when it comes to the ship scanner - the indirect boosting of another broken mechanic (logofski) wont bother them)
also
Dont forget that with each increment, you are making exploration harder and breaking CCPs new content. Incresing the result time to the levels that exlegion was happy with (exlegion of course dosent care about pilots interested in exploration - as it involves a game style different to churning out lv4 missions) would make exploring a system NEARLY 5 TIMES LONGER then it is now.
But the OP either dosent give two hoots about anyone, other then himself, in his one man corp, churning out the same lv4s again and again and again OR he simply so self centered that he lacks the perspective to see what his mewing would do to other people.
He dosent care which other professions he will hurt with his demands to make his easier.
Which is why his postings are disliked by the vast majority of readers.
SKUNK
or.. thinking outside of the box, get rid of the click pr. minute mechanic entirely.. The directional scanner should be replaced with an entirely new system.
Also I think it needs to be recognized that although staying aligned is possible in missions, it is almost impossible in exploration sites, because you have to be within a certain range of structures/containers in order to interact with them.
To summarize, a new mechanic has to -
- Not depend on boring spam one button mechanics.
- Be compatible with the current probing system, which we like.
- Make it challenging and fun for pirates to scan down explorers and mission runners.
- Give explorers and mission runners a fair chance to notice pirates trying to probe them.
- Not necessarily require explorers and mission runners to stay aligned.
I must admit I am drawing a blank trying to come up with something interesting and novel here. |
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Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 17:49:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 23/07/2009 16:50:12
Le Skunk,
Be honest. YouÆre not fooling anyone. I ignore most of your posts, not only on this thread but on many others that I may not even post in, because you usually have nothing productive to say. And also, forgive me for saying this so bluntly, you tend to lie. A lot.
Sometimes he gets into a rant, but he often makes some very good points, unlike yourself.
Originally by: Exlegion
IÆm in low sec to make a profit. Low sec is supposed to be about higher risk AND higher rewards. Well, I definitely see the higher risk but I'm not seeing the rewards much less higher rewards. And for the umpteenth time I am not asking for 100% protection or 100% safety. So I will ask you something that I know and quite frankly expect you not to do. Stop lying. I want a system that is fair to mission running. I also want a system that is fair to pirating. As it is the system is not reasonable.
You and I both know that Level 4's in Low Sec are not giving out enough ISK for the element of danger. That's a whole different whine.
You are asking for CCP to make it easier for you to stay safe and harder for people to kill you. Right now it's pretty damn easy to stay safe in Low Sec, even in PvE fits.
Originally by: Exlegion People have put forth some good ideas so far. Right now there is a problem with the mechanics and I have brought it to light. And I feel that most people understand the problem and for that I am thankful. If I have missed something feel free to bring it up and point out. What I do not appreciate is you personally attacking me and accusing me of things that just arenÆt true. And I will say this again, not for you but to the avid reader: I am not asking for complete safety or even a fail-safe way to detect probes. What I ask for is a reasonable chance at detecting them before my mission is busted. What I am asking for to be able to make a profit in low sec.
It's a problem in your opinion, your biased opinion.
There is certainly a reasonable chance now of detecting probes. The only solution I see you offering is to increase scan time on combat probes. Which really is just making it much harder and more boring for those probing and much easier for you. AKA CCP MAKE IT E ASIER FOR ME
|
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 17:55:00 -
[322]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/07/2009 17:55:31 Exlegion. Lets attempt to stick to the facts then. This is my interpretation of your present low sec mission running experience. Please point out anywhere I have gone wrong.
A: An Analysis of risk for the low sec mission runner:
1) Approach low sec jump off gate from high sec - NO RISK
2) Jump in - NO RISK
3) Cloak-MWD-Trick through low sec to your destiantion system - NO RISK
N.B- As a side note ive personaly seen you happily take advantage of this "broken game mechanic". Could you comment on why your professed hatred of broken things seems in this case not to extend to those which benfit you?
4) Reach System and Dock - NO RISK
5) Undock from a system with a 30km undock bubble. So no risk of being bumped off. Any enemys outside you can dock - NO RISK
6) Warp to your mission. If not afk - suffer no chance of the NPC rats killing you (would you agree?) - NO RISK
7) Move away from warp in gate, drop can, align out, use scanner for probes - Practicaly NO RISK
N.B - As you have pointed out - you have never been killed in a busted mission as you take the measures to enable yourself to escape.
Thats my risk analysis of an alert mission runner in lowsec. The risk is for all intents Zero.
So I ask you two questions:
1) Please look at my Analysis above and I should be interested to know where you would suggest where there is elements of risk for yourself (barring computer failure).
2) Assuming ccp did give you an autoscanner - scanning every 5 seconds in a small window on your screen - then from what I can gather this is the scenario that you would suggest would occur
a) Mission runner can run mission safe in knowledge nobody is probing him b) Probes would be dropped by prospective ganker c) Probes would appear on autoscanner window d) Mission runner would immediatly hit dock
Given that it is already incredibly difficult to catch an alert mission runner - Could you comment on how with the addition of an autoscanner how would there be ANY possibililty of a succesful gank. As far as i see it, You would safely run your mission, PING! a probe appears on a small box in the corner of your screen, CLICK you hit dock.
It wouldnt just be very difficult (as currently) it would be impossible.
Please, if you would, answer all the questions posed.
SKUNK |
Nareg Maxence
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 17:55:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Dez Affinity
It's a problem in your opinion, your biased opinion.
And mine too! Hi!
Originally by: Dez Affinity
There is certainly a reasonable chance now of detecting probes. The only solution I see you offering is to increase scan time on combat probes. Which really is just making it much harder and more boring for those probing and much easier for you. AKA CCP MAKE IT E ASIER FOR ME
No, the system is really unreasonable and should be replaced.
|
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 18:00:00 -
[324]
Originally by: Nareg Maxence
or.. thinking outside of the box, get rid of the click pr. minute mechanic entirely.. The directional scanner should be replaced with an entirely new system.
Also I think it needs to be recognized that although staying aligned is possible in missions, it is almost impossible in exploration sites, because you have to be within a certain range of structures/containers in order to interact with them.
To summarize, a new mechanic has to -
- Not depend on boring spam one button mechanics.
- Be compatible with the current probing system, which we like.
- Make it challenging and fun for pirates to scan down explorers and mission runners.
- Give explorers and mission runners a fair chance to notice pirates trying to probe them.
- Not necessarily require explorers and mission runners to stay aligned.
I must admit I am drawing a blank trying to come up with something interesting and novel here.
Replacing the directional scanner will completly change PvP. Depending on what it is replaced by it will have dire consequences. Right now, the scanner is used for much more than finding out if a pirate is trying to kill you.
In exploration sites, you don't need to be aligned all the time, but if there is several people in the system and you dont know what ships they are in (e.g. potentially a prober) then you align out. It's pretty simple.
The click/scan system is actually useful, such as, hitting scan, results staying. You can then get to a safe place and take time to notice what was on scan. If it auto-refreshed it would make cycling down long lists a pain in the ass.
Probing right now is not fun, it's tedious and repetitive. The only fun part is the shooting. The challenge however already exists. You have to scan down as quick as possible with pin point precision before the other guy realises you are doing it. Then you have to warp in and tackle them, before they can warp, which is impossible if they are aligned. Impossible. I'd say that's a challenge.
As a mission runner or explorer, you aren't required to stay aligned, but it makes you invulnerable if you do... so why not do it? |
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2009.07.23 18:05:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Nareg Maxence
And mine too! Hi!
Because you share the same bias...
Originally by: Nareg Maxence
No, the system is really unreasonable and should be replaced.
It's unreasonable for you to have to pay attention and have to actually do something to be safe? |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.24 10:58:00 -
[326]
There are some very angry people playing this game. IÆm skipping your personal attacks as they add nothing to this conversation.
Originally by: Dez Affinity You and I both know that Level 4's in Low Sec are not giving out enough ISK for the element of danger. That's a whole different whine.
Except that due to the new probing mechanics profit-earning in low sec has become worse than pre-Apocrypha. And that is why I created this thread.
Originally by: Dez Affinity You are asking for CCP to make it easier for you to stay safe and harder for people to kill you. Right now it's pretty damn easy to stay safe in Low Sec, even in PvE fits.
I am asking CCP to review the probing mechanics because it is currently making it impossible to profit in low sec, more so than before. I havenÆt asked to be safer. I keep my eye on local and I stay aligned. And even by taking precautions like this I have lost ships in low sec and I accept that as part of the risk of operating there. What I have a problem with is spamming a button and having to review results every 5 seconds. That is unacceptable game play.
Originally by: Dez Affinity There is certainly a reasonable chance now of detecting probes.
I am all ears. Please do tell.
Originally by: Dez Affinity The only solution I see you offering is to increase scan time on combat probes. Which really is just making it much harder and more boring for those probing and much easier for you. AKA CCP MAKE IT E ASIER FOR ME
I have also suggested a clearer definition between the scanner and the probing mechanics. In fact, I would love CCP to re-invent the onboard scanner. Give it a much clearer use and something that doesnÆt overlap the functionality of the probe launcher. Another suggestion might be to take away the degrees adjusting functionality of the onboard scanner. You would still know how close something is but the direction remains unknown. These are just suggestions. And a discussion on these suggestions is more than welcome. In fact, I encourage them! LetÆs give ideas to solve the problem.
Quote: Replacing the directional scanner will completely change PVP. Depending on what it is replaced by it will have dire consequences. Right now, the scanner is used for much more than finding out if a pirate is trying to kill you.
LetÆs talk about what these changes are. Lay them on the floor and letÆs discuss a reasonable fix. Remember that the goal is to make it so that running missions in low sec is profitable. This, in turn, means that you will have to give up certain benefits in order to balance things up a little. LetÆs face it, probes not being detectable for longer than 5 seconds in space is causing a problem.
Quote: The click/scan system is actually useful, such as, hitting scan, results staying. You can then get to a safe place and take time to notice what was on scan. If it auto-refreshed it would make cycling down long lists a pain in the ass.
Come on, my friend. Are you suggesting that pressing a button then warping out every 5 seconds to a safe spot so that I can read the results is a benefit? I donÆt even think thatÆs possible! :\ Listen, I donÆt doubt that you have run some missions in low sec. But I donÆt think you do it as a main profession. I could be wrong. But the only thing I can suggest, besides asking you to try it for a few weeks, is take my word for it. There is a problem with the way the mechanics are set up right now. I know it is difficult for mission probers to admit this but in the end I think it will make low sec a little better for everyone, including pirates.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.24 10:59:00 -
[327]
Quote: As a mission runner or explorer, you aren't required to stay aligned, but it makes you invulnerable if you do... so why not do it?
ItÆs not just about staying aligned. ItÆs about making a profit as well. Having missions busted is very bad for business. I already align but IÆm still not making profits. I have even offered ransom to pirates to let me finish the mission. Their response? ôNoö. So IÆve had to default missions. Lose isk, LP, and standings.
Quote: It's unreasonable for you to have to pay attention and have to actually do something to be safe?
Paying attention is all fine and dandy. In fact, because I can no longer tell when IÆm being probed I have to be safe and dock my isk-earner, even if no one happens to be probing me. Why? Because I wouldnÆt know until my mission is busted whether I was being probed or not.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.07.24 12:40:00 -
[328]
Originally by: Exlegion There are some very angry people playing this game. IÆm skipping your personal attacks as they add nothing to this conversation.
It's okay, play the victim some more, you are wronged by the player base and by CCP.
Originally by: Exlegion
Except that due to the new probing mechanics profit-earning in low sec has become worse than pre-Apocrypha. And that is why I created this thread.
Nah, not really. I don't need to elaborate, you won't believe me anyway.
Originally by: Exlegion
I am asking CCP to review the probing mechanics because it is currently making it impossible to profit in low sec, more so than before. I havenÆt asked to be safer. I keep my eye on local and I stay aligned. And even by taking precautions like this I have lost ships in low sec and I accept that as part of the risk of operating there. What I have a problem with is spamming a button and having to review results every 5 seconds. That is unacceptable game play.
Profit = Making more than you lose. If that's the case then what have I been doing these past 3 years.
How can you deny asking to be safer? You want probes changing so its harder for you to be found.
I have never lost a ship NPCing in low-sec, I've NPC'd in Amamake and Old Man Star, some of the most dangerous systems in low-sec. Hopefully that won't change either.
Sure, the current mechanic might be a bit tedious for the defender, but the attacker has to do the same thing, make sure you aren't moving, nearing the end of mission. Also probing is just as boring if not more than spamming the scan button. If you are going to complain about the mechanic at least be constructive about it and offer some alternatives.
Originally by: Exlegion I have also suggested a clearer definition between the scanner and the probing mechanics. In fact, I would love CCP to re-invent the onboard scanner. Give it a much clearer use and something that doesnÆt overlap the functionality of the probe launcher. Another suggestion might be to take away the degrees adjusting functionality of the onboard scanner. You would still know how close something is but the direction remains unknown. These are just suggestions. And a discussion on these suggestions is more than welcome. In fact, I encourage them! LetÆs give ideas to solve the problem.
Removing the directional part from the directional scanner just literally kills PvP. I mean kills. No belt piracy, finding fights would be ridiculous. Pure guesswork or the requirement of a prober in every gang which is ultimatly ineffective because people move quicker than it takes to probe.
Originally by: exlegion LetÆs talk about what these changes are. Lay them on the floor and letÆs discuss a reasonable fix. Remember that the goal is to make it so that running missions in low sec is profitable. This, in turn, means that you will have to give up certain benefits in order to balance things up a little. LetÆs face it, probes not being detectable for longer than 5 seconds in space is causing a problem.
These super clever probers really are that common? I mean the way you make it sound is that there is permanently a pirate gang in your mission system sat with a covert ops ready to jump on you. Not only that but they are smart enough to drop probes 15 au away and get a 100 percent hit first time and pull them back before you notice. Theres better ways to increase low-sec profitablity without crushing current pvp mechanics.
Fit ECCM, don't use shield extenders, use cruiser sized ships, use BC hulls, find a new place to mission, don't mission with pirates in local, don't mission when there's a recon or cov ops in system, use a t3 ship, stay aligned out, place a can on warp in so they can't come in cloaked, use an alt (for scouting pirates, on the gate or somewhere else in system). Etc. Etc.
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Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.07.24 12:48:00 -
[329]
Originally by: exlegion
Come on, my friend. Are you suggesting that pressing a button then warping out every 5 seconds to a safe spot so that I can read the results is a benefit? I donÆt even think thatÆs possible! :\ Listen, I donÆt doubt that you have run some missions in low sec. But I donÆt think you do it as a main profession. I could be wrong. But the only thing I can suggest, besides asking you to try it for a few weeks, is take my word for it. There is a problem with the way the mechanics are set up right now. I know it is difficult for mission probers to admit this but in the end I think it will make low sec a little better for everyone, including pirates.
I was more referring to it's applications in PvP, not for when you are missioning. I was referring to the fact you think changing something is fine because it only effects PvE. Well it doesn't.
No I don't run missions in low-sec as a profession, because I know I may as well just run missions in high-sec because the profit is exactly the same with a good agent. But that's problems with level 4s, high sec and low-sec agents and not to do with the scanner and probing mechanic.
Making it easier for mission runners, makes it harder for pirates, it's a pretty simple concept.
Originally by: exlegion
ItÆs not just about staying aligned. ItÆs about making a profit as well. Having missions busted is very bad for business. I already align but IÆm still not making profits. I have even offered ransom to pirates to let me finish the mission. Their response? ôNoö. So IÆve had to default missions. Lose isk, LP, and standings.
I agree making a good profit in low sec missions isn't easy, not only do the rewards not count in for the risk but they don't counter in being interupted which doesn't happen in high-sec. But this isn't to do with probing/scanning. There is time to get out before they get your position and your mission. Unless these guys are 10x better at probing than me (or you are using a marauder lol).
Pirates aren't going to take the ransom because they would rather kill your ship. Unlucky.
Quote: Paying attention is all fine and dandy. In fact, because I can no longer tell when IÆm being probed I have to be safe and dock my isk-earner, even if no one happens to be probing me. Why? Because I wouldnÆt know until my mission is busted whether I was being probed or not.
If you don't know what ship everyone in system is in, then you are being probed. If you are missioning in low-sec with systems with more than 10 people in, there's a reason you keep getting found. _______________
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Jer Bu
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Posted - 2009.07.24 12:49:00 -
[330]
This post has no merit.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.07.24 14:21:00 -
[331]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 24/07/2009 14:33:12
Originally by: Exlegion There are some very angry people playing this game. IÆm skipping your personal attacks as they add nothing to this conversation.
There were no personal attack in my post - just inconvenient questions for you! Ill repost it for your convenience. Your refusal to answer is quite telling, as all the readers will agree.
Exlegion. Lets attempt to stick to the facts then. This is my interpretation of your present low sec mission running experience. Please point out anywhere I have gone wrong.
A: An Analysis of risk for the low sec mission runner:
1) Approach low sec jump off gate from high sec - NO RISK
2) Jump in - NO RISK
3) Cloak-MWD-Trick through low sec to your destiantion system - NO RISK
N.B- As a side note ive personaly seen you happily take advantage of this "broken game mechanic". Could you comment on why your professed hatred of broken things seems in this case not to extend to those which benfit you?
i. alternatively carrier jump your ship and fittings across low sec avoiding all systems in between - NO RISK
4) Reach System and Dock - NO RISK
5) Undock from a system with a 30km undock bubble. So no risk of being bumped off. Any enemys outside you can dock - NO RISK
6) Warp to your mission. If not afk - suffer no chance of the NPC rats killing you (would you agree?) - NO RISK
7) Move away from warp in gate, drop can, align out, use scanner for probes - Practicaly NO RISK
N.B - As you have pointed out - you have never been killed in a busted mission as you take the measures to enable yourself to escape.
Thats my risk analysis of an alert mission runner in lowsec. The risk is for all intents Zero.
So I ask you two questions:
1) Please look at my Analysis above and I should be interested to know where you would suggest where there is elements of risk for yourself (barring computer failure).
2) Assuming ccp did give you an autoscanner - scanning every 5 seconds in a small window on your screen - then from what I can gather this is the scenario that you would suggest would occur
a) Mission runner can run mission safe in knowledge nobody is probing him b) Probes would be dropped by prospective ganker c) Probes would appear on autoscanner window d) Mission runner would immediatly hit dock
Given that it is already incredibly difficult to catch an alert mission runner - Could you comment on how with the addition of an autoscanner how would there be ANY possibililty of a succesful gank. As far as i see it, You would safely run your mission, PING! a probe appears on a small box in the corner of your screen, CLICK you hit dock.
It wouldnt just be very difficult (as currently) it would be impossible.
Please, if you would, answer all the questions posed, which i have highlighted in red for your convienience. Please to could you state your credentials for commenting on the present system (experience of running missions, experience of probing other ships, experience of ganking mission runners).
SKUNK (o)
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.25 13:46:00 -
[332]
Quote: 2) Jump in - NO RISK
3) Cloak-MWD-Trick through low sec to your destiantion system - NO RISK
Wrong. There is risk even when using cloak + MWD I have lost ships in low sec. Last ship I lost was a about a week ago.
Quote: N.B- As a side note ive personaly seen you happily take advantage of this "broken game mechanic". Could you comment on why your professed hatred of broken things seems in this case not to extend to those which benfit you?
My problem is with balance. Again, BALANCE. WeÆre getting off the subject but IÆll answer your question anyway, even though itÆs pointless and useless doing so with you. Besides meta-gaming (using alts) and having a group of players following me around holding my hand every time I make a jump into low sec what other technique is there into surviving a gate camp? Unfortunately there is nothing else that brings balance to gate camps other than MWD + cloak.
Quote: i. alternatively carrier jump your ship and fittings across low sec avoiding all systems in between - NO RISK
First, are you suggesting that low sec mission runners should have a carrier in order to have a chance at moving their battleships around low sec? Second, there is risk in cyno-ing capitals around. They donÆt always jump where they should, as I learned the hard way. Sometimes you end up 10 Km away from target and have to slow-boat your way to safety. And I donÆt always have a cyno-ship available to jump me in.
Quote: Move away from warp in gate, drop can, align out, use scanner for probes - Practicaly NO RISK
First, you cannot always afford to move away from the gate in a mission, as the next gate is nearby. Second, even pre-Apocrypha I lost battleships during missions in low sec.
Quote: N.B - As you have pointed out - you have never been killed in a busted mission as you take the measures to enable yourself to escape.
This is not true. I have never said that I havenÆt lost ships due to my missions being busted because the truth is I have lost my fair share, even before Apocrypha. ItÆs part of the risk of running missions in low sec. I am extremely safe in low sec, but the chance of losing a ship was still great, and again, itÆs part of being in low sec. I accept that risk. The problem is that after Apocrypha there is MORE risk and LESS reward.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.25 13:46:00 -
[333]
Quote: Thats my risk analysis of an alert mission runner in lowsec. The risk is for all intents Zero.
Le Skunk, itÆs quite ridiculous for you to even assume this statement. You are not a mission runner so to say that mission runners have zero risk in low sec is completely unfounded. ItÆs like me saying that pirates have no risk in low sec even though IÆm not a pirate nor understand what itÆs like to be one.
Quote: 2) Assuming ccp did give you an autoscanner - scanning every 5 seconds in a small window on your screen - then from what I can gather this is the scenario that you would suggest would occur
a) Mission runner can run mission safe in knowledge nobody is probing him b) Probes would be dropped by prospective ganker c) Probes would appear on autoscanner window d) Mission runner would immediatly hit dock
I havenÆt asked for an auto scanner per se. It has been suggested in this thread, as many other ideas as well. As I said before, whatever changes are made it needs to balance the prey-predator relationship without swaying in either direction too much. The key word here is balance. There needs to be balance. A reasonable rate at detecting probes is fair enough. As it is this isnÆt the case.
Quote: Given that it is already incredibly difficult to catch an alert mission runner - Could you comment on how with the addition of an autoscanner how would there be ANY possibililty of a succesful gank. As far as i see it, You would safely run your mission, PING! a probe appears on a small box in the corner of your screen, CLICK you hit dock.
It is not incredible difficult to catch an alert mission runner, even so before Apocrypha. I consider myself an avid mission runner and from time to time I still get caught and I still lose ships! ItÆs part of the job. But I didnÆt mind this before Apocrypha because I could still make enough profits to overturn the losses. But now I cannot do that.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Paul Grant
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Posted - 2009.07.25 14:50:00 -
[334]
If CCP is reading, my vote amongst the forumers is to leave the system the way it is. The arguments, which I have been reading, indicate that the system is quite balanced for low sec. Increase rewards in low sec to bring more people there.
That is my vote, nothing more to say.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.25 17:30:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Paul Grant If CCP is reading, my vote amongst the forumers is to leave the system the way it is. The arguments, which I have been reading, indicate that the system is quite balanced for low sec. Increase rewards in low sec to bring more people there.
That is my vote, nothing more to say.
Yes, spamming a button every 5 seconds is very well balanced mechanics. And this coming from an alt must only mean it's true. So CCP, please don't listen to those that know what they're talking about because pirates and alts know more about mission running. Now, if you want to know about piracy, then that you should ask mission runners. That's why when I want the best Italian pizza I go to Mexico. If I want Mexican tacos then China is the place for that.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Clarion Abbot
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Posted - 2009.07.25 20:13:00 -
[336]
Edited by: Clarion Abbot on 25/07/2009 20:14:54
Originally by: Exlegion please don't listen to those that know what they're talking about because pirates and alts know more about mission running. Now, if you want to know about piracy, then that you should ask mission runners.
I think in a discussion about how difficult it is to probe down a mission runner and gank him - the FIRST person you should talk to is a pirate - NOT a poster (ie you) who has never probed out and killed anyone in your life - just wants an easy life whoring no risk missions
TIP: Move away from your mission warp in slightly and align to warp out.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.25 20:30:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Clarion Abbot Edited by: Clarion Abbot on 25/07/2009 20:14:54
Originally by: Exlegion please don't listen to those that know what they're talking about because pirates and alts know more about mission running. Now, if you want to know about piracy, then that you should ask mission runners.
I think in a discussion about how difficult it is to probe down a mission runner and gank him - the FIRST person you should talk to is a pirate - NOT a poster (ie you) who has never probed out and killed anyone in your life - just wants an easy life whoring no risk missions
TIP: Move away from your mission warp in slightly and align to warp out.
Never killed anyone. Probing I'm quite proficient at.
And since we're on the subject of knowing what we're talking about, have you bothered trying to spam a button and reading results every 5 seconds while doing a mission in low sec yet?
And any particular reason why you're posting with an alt, assuming you're just not out to troll?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.07.25 21:33:00 -
[338]
I've done both, so I would say that I am well placed to comment on this subject.
Yes, the hitting scan button repeatedly when there's a chance you are being probed is boring and tedious. A lot of things in this game are, A LOT of things in this game are. Spamming the scan button isn't just something PvErs have to do in low sec, PvPers are doing it the whole time too. Whether it's looking for new targets or seeing if those new jumps ins are friends coming in. The scanner is centric to the game and the way it works. Changing it isn't simple. _______________
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.26 03:07:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Exlegion Besides meta-gaming (using alts)
Using the cloak in such a way as to make a battleship able to run lowsec gate camps IS META-GAMING, wake up call here.
Originally by: Exlegion ...and having a group of players following me around holding my hand every time I make a jump into low sec what other technique is there into surviving a gate camp? Unfortunately there is nothing else that brings balance to gate camps other than MWD + cloak.
This is where you are horribly horribly wrong. Balance is important in EVE, but there is nothing balanced about what you are doing. the fact that you can carefree run about 95% of all lowsec gatecamps in a battleship is horribly overpowered. There is no balance in that.
The fact of the matter is that if there is a camp, YOU SHOULD have to use an alt to scout, or YOU SHOULD bring a gang with you to clear the camp, or YOU SHOULD not be passing through that gate in the first place.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.26 03:55:00 -
[340]
Edited by: Exlegion on 26/07/2009 04:03:15
Originally by: SK Rooster Using the cloak in such a way as to make a battleship able to run lowsec gate camps IS META-GAMING, wake up call here.
This is where you are horribly horribly wrong. Balance is important in EVE, but there is nothing balanced about what you are doing. the fact that you can carefree run about 95% of all lowsec gatecamps in a battleship is horribly overpowered. There is no balance in that.
The fact of the matter is that if there is a camp, YOU SHOULD have to use an alt to scout, or YOU SHOULD bring a gang with you to clear the camp, or YOU SHOULD not be passing through that gate in the first place.
When I move my ships about in low sec I fit them for flight, not fight. I stuff the lows with nanos, i-stabs, warp core stabilizers, whatever will make my ships give flight, even ECM Bursts to break locks. I do all this in conjunction with MWD + cloak and I have STILL lost ships in gate camps. I never stay and fight in a gate camp because I know I will be outnumbered and I will never win that battle. And using a second account to meta game should not be a requirement to properly play a game either. And I will say this quite frankly, the reason low sec is such a waste of space at the moment is because of the perpetual elitist mentality that you, Le Skunk, and a few others bring to the forums where anything that makes low sec more of a death trap to all but you is good and anything else is completely out of line.
BTW, if you feel that gatecamps are underpowered and need a boost feel free to start your own thread on that and stay on topic in mine. But I suspect your intentions are to derail and troll this thread so, meh.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.26 05:28:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Exlegion And using a second account to meta game should not be a requirement to properly play a game either.
A second account is not required to properly play the game in the same manner as a rifle is not required to go trekking through the woods.
If you run up on a bear in the woods it would be nice to have, in the same manner as if you run up on a gatecamp in EVE.
Everyone reading this thread clearly see that you want EVE to be a solo game. The devs have made countless changes to the game to ensure that is is not, and never will be that.
Until you come to accept that fact you will continue to fail (of course when I say you I mean carebears in general, you personally will just continue to cheat using the cloak trick).
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Sweet Laylah
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Posted - 2009.07.26 06:12:00 -
[342]
Whats so hard about aligning and hitting scan constantly looking for incoming ships?
Remember that thing about isk v reward?
Low sec is supposed to be dangerous, plexing or missioning semi-afk is not how you should be operating. The pirates aren't semi-afk, they are concentrating hard on fnding ya afk ass.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.26 13:27:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Sweet Laylah Whats so hard about aligning and hitting scan constantly looking for incoming ships?
Remember that thing about isk v reward?
Low sec is supposed to be dangerous, plexing or missioning semi-afk is not how you should be operating. The pirates aren't semi-afk, they are concentrating hard on fnding ya afk ass.
:)
Aligning and dropping a can at warp-in is all fine and dandy to help save my ship (does nothing to protect my mission deadspace). Constantly hitting scan (i.e., every 5 seconds) is not and should not be acceptable to anyone. And yes, I remember risk versus reward. Unfortunately itÆs a phrase that doesnÆt have a meaning in low sec because æriskÆ is so inflated and ærewardÆ so nonexistent that you bringing it up is more like a punch line to a joke. æRisk vs. RewardsÆ has become one of the elitistsÆ favorite phrases to use against play styles they hate, such as carebearing, without even realizing that it no longer carries weight in low sec. Honestly, youÆre better off calling me ælazyÆ, ægreedyÆ, or even æantisocialÆ rather than keep throwing the phrase ærisk vs. rewardÆ around.
And why all the alt posting all of a sudden? If anyone should be posting with an alt it should be me with all the hate mails and all the war-dec threats IÆve received :P. Anyway, I wonÆt bite. I promise. IÆm just a cute cuddly bear.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Cailais
Amarr Diablo Advocatus
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Posted - 2009.07.26 13:57:00 -
[344]
This discussion could go on for a long long time because at the base of it all is a crude binary scanning system.
Hopefully CCP will introduce a 'intel suite' that provides near continuous scanning but one which requires interpretation by the player and the ability to modify your signature presence (go dark) when there is a requirement for it.
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Susan Kennedy
Gallente Eddie Murphy Appreciation Society Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.26 14:13:00 -
[345]
Edited by: Susan Kennedy on 26/07/2009 14:14:14
Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 26/07/2009 04:07:13
Originally by: SK Rooster Using the cloak in such a way as to make a battleship able to run lowsec gate camps IS META-GAMING, wake up call here.
This is where you are horribly horribly wrong. Balance is important in EVE, but there is nothing balanced about what you are doing. the fact that you can carefree run about 95% of all lowsec gatecamps in a battleship is horribly overpowered. There is no balance in that.
The fact of the matter is that if there is a camp, YOU SHOULD have to use an alt to scout, or YOU SHOULD bring a gang with you to clear the camp, or YOU SHOULD not be passing through that gate in the first place.
When I move my ships about in low sec I fit them for flight, not fight. I stuff the lows with nanos, i-stabs, warp core stabilizers, whatever will make my ships give flight, even ECM Bursts to break locks. I do all this in conjunction with MWD + cloak and I have STILL lost ships in gate camps. I never stay and fight in a gate camp because I know I will be outnumbered and I will never win that battle.
And using a second account to meta game should not be a requirement to properly play a game either. And I will say this quite frankly,
Forgive me but we are playing a massive MULTIPLAYER online game. CCP have made it clear in the past that they encourage
- forming into corps and working together for the best benifits - using 2nd accounts (metagaming) to get along (the power of two offer)
One scout, (paid for by your countless billions of isk) would solve all your problems. Sit him on the entrance gate of your mission (which of course will uncloak anyone using it) then you will have plenty of time to escape.
Use him to scout your way through low sec as well if you need to. Hell fit a salvager to him and use him to increase your "mission profitability"
You talk about balance, yet you cloak mwd past 30 man gate camps and think this is all dandy. One loan pilot having no chance of being tackled by 30 pilots who are specificaly set up to catch him. Balance? No - but this particular "broken game loophole" is to your benefit so you vainly try to defend it. So your arguments are hypocritical to the extreme. You dont want balance - you want to make the game as easy as possible for yourself, to the detriment of other players.
You also claim to have lost ships recently, i would ask you to prove this or stfu.
Low Sec isnt supposed to be eldorado, where isk grows on trees, and rats drop implants like lost children drop breadcrumbs. Its supposed to be dangerous. If you cant handle the danger - theres a nice place called high sec.
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.26 14:20:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Susan Kennedy Forgive me but we are playing a massive MULTIPLAYER online game. CCP have made it clear in the past that they encourage
- forming into corps and working together for the best benifits - using 2nd accounts (metagaming) to get along (the power of two offer)
One scout, (paid for by your countless billions of isk) would solve all your problems. Sit him on the entrance gate of your mission (which of course will uncloak anyone using it) then you will have plenty of time to escape.
Use him to scout your way through low sec as well if you need to. Hell fit a salvager to him and use him to increase your "mission profitability"
You talk about balance, yet you cloak mwd past 30 man gate camps and think this is all dandy. One loan pilot having no chance of being tackled by 30 pilots who are specificaly set up to catch him. Balance? No - but this particular "broken game loophole" is to your benefit so you vainly try to defend it. So your arguments are hypocritical to the extreme. You dont want balance - you want to make the game as easy as possible for yourself, to the detriment of other players.
You also claim to have lost ships recently, i would ask you to prove this or stfu.
Low Sec isnt supposed to be eldorado, where isk grows on trees, and rats drop implants like lost children drop breadcrumbs. Its supposed to be dangerous. If you cant handle the danger - theres a nice place called high sec.
quite eloquently spoken, here here
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.26 15:11:00 -
[347]
Originally by: Susan Kennedy Forgive me but we are playing a massive MULTIPLAYER online game. CCP have made it clear in the past that they encourageà
Just out of mere curiosity, do you feel that your statement also applies to solo-piracy (predator) as well? Or just solo-carebears (prey)? IÆm just wondering if solo-piracy is OK in your eyes.
Quote: One scout, (paid for by your countless billions of isk) would solve all your problems. Sit him on the entrance gate of your mission (which of course will uncloak anyone using it) then you will have plenty of time to escape.
And how does this help me protect my mission site? How does this improve my chances of detecting combat probes? How does this alleviate me having to press the scan button every 5 seconds?
Quote: You talk about balance, yet you cloak mwd past 30 man gate camps and think this is all dandy. One loan pilot having no chance of being tackled by 30 pilots who are specificaly set up to catch him. Balance? No - but this particular "broken game loophole" is to your benefit so you vainly try to defend it. So your arguments are hypocritical to the extreme. You dont want balance - you want to make the game as easy as possible for yourself, to the detriment of other players.
You also claim to have lost ships recently, i would ask you to prove this or stfu.
There are players that could care less about [gulp, brace for it] killboard kills/losses. I happen to be one of those players. I donÆt care on how many ships I lose and I donÆt keep track on my losses and kills as long as IÆm making enough to cover my losses. However, I am sure I have appeared on more than a few killboards out there. Look me up. I donÆt give away my fittings willingly and I donÆt give away what ships I like to fly. These are just invitations to get ganked. And what makes you think I have escaped 30-man gate camps? I managed to fly off Le SkunkÆs 3-man gate camp and all of a sudden heÆs in my thread raging about me being able to æcheatÆ my way out when I specifically fit my ship for flight. I have lost ships to gate camps. ItÆs inevitable in low sec.
Off topic, but there are ways to somewhat increase your chances of surviving a gate camp. But what about a way to somewhat protect your deadspace? And before you accuse me of wanting 100% safety, IÆm asking for a reasonable chance at protecting my deadspace. IÆm not asking CCP to make me invulnerable or safe. IÆm asking CCP to give me a tool that allows me the opportunity to fairly protect my mission deadspace. The onboard scanner WAS this tool. Again, if you have a problem with gate camps being underpowered why donÆt you start a thread on it?
Quote: Low Sec isnt supposed to be eldorado, where isk grows on trees, and rats drop implants like lost children drop breadcrumbs. Its supposed to be dangerous. If you cant handle the danger - theres a nice place called high sec.
So, what IÆm reading here is: Low sec = BIG RISK vs. itty little reward But you donÆt see a problem with this?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Susan Kennedy
Gallente Eddie Murphy Appreciation Society Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.26 15:45:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Susan Kennedy Forgive me but we are playing a massive MULTIPLAYER online game. CCP have made it clear in the past that they encourageà
Just out of mere curiosity, do you feel that your statement also applies to solo-piracy (predator) as well? Or just solo-carebears (prey)? IÆm just wondering if solo-piracy is OK in your eyes.
Solo piracy? Solo piracy consists of flying around in a rifter looking for a noob in a belt in a cruiser to kill.
In order to set up an effective gatecamp you need a fast tackle hic, a fast tackle rapier/huginn, preferable 2 DPS boats with a slot for RR, an ecm boat, and 2 to 4 scouts.
Thats 6-8 people/accounts needed to catch one person for (trust me) terrible isk per hour when compared to the constant isk influx of no risk lv 4 mission running. Hows that for balance?
Q:Why are you not complaining about that obvious imbalance? A:Because you are only concerned about making how YOU choose to play the game as easy as possible to the detriment of other player!
You cannot simply sit on a gate in a BS and wait for something to jump in. Well you can, but you aint gonna be catching much and your life expectancy is aproching nill.
So in answer to your question: Yes this does apply to solo piracy. You NEED to work in groups to be effective and/or run alts (as promoted by CCP in the regular power of two promotions)
Ironically, one of the few options for solo piracy is to probe out mission runners - which you are seeking to nerf - And even this is much more efficient with an alt in a cov ops prober.
Quote:
You also claim to have lost ships recently, i would ask you to prove this or stfu.
Quote:
There are players that could care less about [gulp, brace for it] killboard kills/losses. I happen to be one of those players. I donÆt care on how many ships I lose and I donÆt keep track on my losses and kills as long as IÆm making enough to cover my losses. However, I am sure I have appeared on more than a few killboards out there. Look me up. I have lost ships to gate camps. ItÆs inevitable in low sec.
I asked you for proof of losing so many ships to gatecamps and mission busts.
This is fundamental to the continuation of your argument that life is so hard for the mission runner in low sec.
I have looked you up on battleclinic, and i see no losses in low sec for two years. Now, scouring the net for peoples losses a good rough indicator but s not entirely accurate, hence me asking you for proof that you are losing ships whilst cloak mwding, and losing ships in busted missions. You have made the statement, now prove it! Prove how hard it is, and you might have the beginning of a case. Prove how easy it is to kill a non rookie mission runner! Back your arguments up with facts! Or withdraw the statement.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.26 17:10:00 -
[349]
IÆm not going to give you my losses, even if I knew where they were posted. Period. WhatÆs funny is I just looked you up in Battleclinic and your name doesnÆt even appear. Going by your own assumptions gate-camping is risk-free, right? But again, if you have a problem with not being able to catch everything on a gate camp why donÆt you start a thread about it? I even promise not to troll it as youÆre doing here with mine.
And the day I æcheatedÆ Le Skunk by escaping his 3-man gatecamp I was fit specifically for flight, not fight. By your own standards it wasnÆt even a properly set-up gate camp. But if Le Skunk and all his corpsÆ and ex-corpsÆ bitterness is due to this one incident all I can ask is that you look past that.
It seems you have a personal problem with people that play certain aspects of the game alone. That in itself is another topic as well. Feel free to start a thread on this and IÆll be happy to defend my position there.
Anyway, I just realized your style of writing is similar to Le SkunkÆs. Are you the same person? If so, would it be too much to ask to only use one of your characters to post? Try and discredit me by using quality posts, not quantity. I wonÆt even ask you anymore to stop derailing the thread because, really, what are the chances of that?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Susan Kennedy
Gallente Eddie Murphy Appreciation Society Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
|
Posted - 2009.07.26 17:47:00 -
[350]
Edited by: Susan Kennedy on 26/07/2009 17:47:42
Originally by: Exlegion IÆm not going to give you my losses, even if I knew where they were posted. Period.
They are in your character sheet, combat log, loss tab.
Your failure to PROVE how dangerous low sec mission running is totally discrediting your case.
Your REFUSAL to provide simple asked for evidence of the high risk to the low sec mission runner kills your argument before it has even started.
Providing evidence of all these supposed losses you have had would go some way to providing a basis for you to ask for boons from CCP to make your chosen profession easier - and provide a springboard for further discussion.
At the moment we are looking for a solution to a problem which has not been proven to exist. Namely the huge risk to low sec mission runners.
Refusing "Period" to give this evidence means you are just repeatedly mouthing the same desperate pleas and will not convince anyone of your case. The very basis of the rational arguments you are asking for is to provide proof for your assertions.
Again - I ask you for the evidence of your losses cloak mwding through camps, and the evidence of your lost ships in busted missions - so we can continue this discussion from a solid footing.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.26 18:10:00 -
[351]
Susan Kennedy (or Le Skunk),
Why do you post with an alt? What is it you're hiding? Why do you have the need to even post with an alt? Why can't you post with your main? Why can't you post a well-thought-out paragraph and back it up with quality instead of using 2+ alts to post your same ideas? Why the need to derail and troll my thread? Why is it when you post something it has to be with anger, deception, lies, and alts? You let it cloud your perception and then go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The more you write the more I realize you must be a very sad and angry person. Let it go, my friend. We're all playing to have fun, whether it be it you collecting kill mails or me collecting isk. In the end it's the same, brother.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Susan Kennedy
Gallente Eddie Murphy Appreciation Society Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
|
Posted - 2009.07.26 19:03:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Exlegion Susan Kennedy (or Le Skunk),
Why do you post with an alt? What is it you're hiding? Why do you have the need to even post with an alt? Why can't you post with your main? Why can't you post a well-thought-out paragraph and back it up with quality instead of using 2+ alts to post your same ideas? Why the need to derail and troll my thread? Why is it when you post something it has to be with anger, deception, lies, and alts? You let it cloud your perception and then go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The more you write the more I realize you must be a very sad and angry person. Let it go, my friend. We're all playing to have fun, whether it be it you collecting kill mails or me collecting isk. In the end it's the same, brother.
Exlegion. You yourself asked for a rational discussion and decried the usage of personal attacks. Yet your last post was full or personal attacks, and low on rational discussion. Let us pass over your insults, and stick to the matter at hand. Please, i beseech you - try to restrain yourself.
The risk in low sec to a mission runner is vitally important to this discussion. If it is seen to be very difficult to run missions safely in low sec, then CCP should perhaps take some consideration to making it easier, including perhaps some change to the probing system.
I however maintain that currently there is little-to-no risk to an active mission runner in low sec,both in the travel to the destination and the mission running itself. I believe the small danger (and as has been pointed out it is a very small danger) there is from the current probing system is proportionate to the large rewards the mission runner can achieve.
You have said many times in this thread (and other ones you have spawned on the same subject)that the opposite is true. You claim there is significant risk to the mission runner. Risk so significant that low sec mission running has caused you to die multiple times to gatecamps (despite cloak mwd) and in busted missions.
I simply ask you to consult your log, and show us where and when these losses took place as some evidence of the large risks you maintain you have suffered.
I simply ask you to PROVE your assertions that there is currently risk enough for the low sec mission runner for CCP to grant you a boon.
At the moment we are looking for a solution to a problem which has not been proven to exist. Namely the huge risk to low sec mission runners.
Show us the mails you are telling us you have. Your refusal to do so, and personal attacks when pushed on the issue speak volumes.
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Sral TBear
Mark Of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.07.26 19:18:00 -
[353]
This is just.....
we die, you get warp to 0
we die, ships, mods enters game making it safer...
we die and all you have to do is move away from a G`dominass warp in point....
You dont want to play eve. You want to sit home in your nice chair feeling soooooo awsome and cool.....go play sims3 please or stfu
Im so fed up with "scare"-bears whining......you try to make a living as solo pirate.....and tell me its sooooooooooo eaaaasyyyyyy......jump back to empire....dock up and put your head in the toilet...the flush might clear the brain for normal thinking......
TBear
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.26 19:38:00 -
[354]
Edited by: Exlegion on 26/07/2009 19:38:50
Originally by: Susan Kennedy Exlegion. You yourself asked for a rational discussion and decried the usage of personal attacks. Yet your last post was full or personal attacks, and low on rational discussion. Let us pass over your insults, and stick to the matter at hand. Please, i beseech you - try to restrain yourself.
The risk in low sec to a mission runner is vitally important to this discussion. If it is seen to be very difficult to run missions safely in low sec, then CCP should perhaps take some consideration to making it easier, including perhaps some change to the probing system.
I however maintain that currently there is little-to-no risk to an active mission runner in low sec,both in the travel to the destination and the mission running itself. I believe the small danger (and as has been pointed out it is a very small danger) there is from the current probing system is proportionate to the large rewards the mission runner can achieve.
You have said many times in this thread (and other ones you have spawned on the same subject)that the opposite is true. You claim there is significant risk to the mission runner. Risk so significant that low sec mission running has caused you to die multiple times to gatecamps (despite cloak mwd) and in busted missions.
I simply ask you to consult your log, and show us where and when these losses took place as some evidence of the large risks you maintain you have suffered.
I simply ask you to PROVE your assertions that there is currently risk enough for the low sec mission runner for CCP to grant you a boon.
At the moment we are looking for a solution to a problem which has not been proven to exist. Namely the huge risk to low sec mission runners.
Show us the mails you are telling us you have. Your refusal to do so, and personal attacks when pushed on the issue speak volumes.
Le Skunk,
There is risk to running missions. You know this. And quite frankly IÆm not going to argue this with you. The fact that you are spamming this thread with your main AND your alts show that not even you yourself think your arguments hold any merit. You trolled. I bit. Congratulations. Honestly, if I would have realized that it was you all along just using your alts to cheerlead your own opinions I would have not held this long discussing in circles with you.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Susan Kennedy
Gallente Eddie Murphy Appreciation Society Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
|
Posted - 2009.07.26 19:45:00 -
[355]
Edited by: Susan Kennedy on 26/07/2009 19:46:24
Originally by: Exlegion
There is risk to running missions. You know this. And quite frankly IÆm not going to argue this with you. The fact that you are spamming this thread with your main AND your alts show that not even you yourself think your arguments hold any merit. You trolled. I bit. Congratulations. Honestly, if I would have realized that it was you all along just using your alts to cheerlead your own opinions I would have not held this long discussing in circles with you.
The leskunk character is temporarily unable to post but this is irrelevant. Stop avoiding the question! Your credibility is nosediving.
Originally by: Susan Kennedy
At the moment we are looking for a solution to a problem which has not been proven to exist. Namely the huge risk to low sec mission runners.
Show us the mails you are telling us you have. Your refusal to do so, and personal attacks when pushed on the issue speak volumes.
Show us the mails! Give us the proof. Where is it!. Why are you evading? Are we to take from this you were lying earlier?
Stop attacking the man and answer the questions. You asked for a rational discussion - and boy did you get it. Now for the 5th time I ask you
WHERE IS THE PROOF
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.27 00:32:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Exlegion And how does this help me protect my mission site? How does this improve my chances of detecting combat probes? How does this alleviate me having to press the scan button every 5 seconds?
if you have an alt sitting on the entrance to the mission any ship that comes through will be seen by your alt, esp if he has drones out. you wont even need to look at the scanner just keep an eye on the alt screen.
Quote: But what about a way to somewhat protect your deadspace?
why would you think that you or any mission runner deserve this? people that mine or rat in belts have no protection, and in many cases make less ISK per hour than you do in your deadspace, and they dont have to be probed out.
Quote: Low sec = BIG RISK vs. itty little reward
this is exactly right, exactly correct. do i personally have a problem with this? no, i dont make my money in lowsec. does lowsec gains need to be boosted? very yes, but having your invulerable missions like you ask is not the solution (think more bounties in lowsec missions, etc)
Quote: Le Skunk Le Skunk Le Skunk Le Skunk
hey i am not Le Skunk or Le Skunk alt, what excuse are you going to use against me to disregard my argument?
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.07.27 02:15:00 -
[357]
There are some people you just can't argue with, as they are people of "faith", and no matter what logical argument you use, it'll fly right thru them
For serious discussion, it's enough to state your point once, then if someone brings a new valid issue, respond appropriately. But you should not be forced to explain the same thing over and over again. Just ignore people who try to do that to you
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.27 02:27:00 -
[358]
Edited by: Exlegion on 27/07/2009 02:32:54
Originally by: SK Rooster if you have an alt sitting on the entrance to the mission any ship that comes through will be seen by your alt, esp if he has drones out. you wont even need to look at the scanner just keep an eye on the alt screen.
It still does nothing for the profit downtime after a mission has been busted.
Quote: people that mine or rat in belts have no protection, and in many cases make less ISK per hour than you do in your deadspace, and they dont have to be probed out.
This is true. But IÆd like to add a couple of comments to this, and I wonÆt go too much into detail because, again, these arenÆt my main professions.
First, the fact that mining and ratting in low sec are extinct professions should be leading you to conclude that there is something horribly broken in low sec. To use mining and ratting in low sec as a measuring yard stick against other professions in low sec is just wrong. All these professions are broken in low sec. But me personally, as a low sec mission runner can only speak of my profession. I rather let a miner or ratter discuss exactly what their shortcomings are; and I know they have their own issues.
Second, and what IÆm about to say IÆm sure will come with some heat and for that IÆll apologize before hand, especially if IÆm completely out of line, but mission runners are bound to their deadspace location. I cannot choose what location in space it will be in. Once I accept the mission I am bound to that spot until I either default the mission or complete it, while mining and ratting doesnÆt necessarily bind you to a specific point in space.
Quote: [Low sec = BIG RISK vs. itty little reward] this is exactly right, exactly correct. do i personally have a problem with this? no, i dont make my money in lowsec. does lowsec gains need to be boosted? very yes, but having your invulerable missions like you ask is not the solution (think more bounties in lowsec missions, etc)
I usually stop short from asking for a boost to low sec because in order to make up for the ædowntimeÆ a low sec mission runner is subjected to would require quite a substantial rise to the reward. I havenÆt done the math, but it wouldnÆt surprise me if it would need to be four times or more as the standard. And in my opinion, that is a little out of line. But, I certainly see how this could solve the problem.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.27 04:23:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Exlegion It still does nothing for the profit downtime after a mission has been busted.
With any money making activity in lowsec or 0.0 you run this risk. Whether it be mining, ratting, mission running, exploration, wormholes, even trading. I have said this multiple times but hey I feel like talking to a brick wall today:
If you are not willing to accept the risks associated with making money in lowsec/0.0 then stay out, go to hisec, go to wow, go somewhere but get out of our lowsec and off these forums with your whines. Plenty of people (myself included) make money in lowsec or 0.0 without complaint.
L2P
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Sweet Laylah
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Posted - 2009.07.27 04:54:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Sweet Laylah Whats so hard about aligning and hitting scan constantly looking for incoming ships?
Remember that thing about isk v reward?
Low sec is supposed to be dangerous, plexing or missioning semi-afk is not how you should be operating. The pirates aren't semi-afk, they are concentrating hard on fnding ya afk ass.
:)
Aligning and dropping a can at warp-in is all fine and dandy to help save my ship (does nothing to protect my mission deadspace). Constantly hitting scan (i.e., every 5 seconds) is not and should not be acceptable to anyone. And yes, I remember risk versus reward. Unfortunately itÆs a phrase that doesnÆt have a meaning in low sec because æriskÆ is so inflated and ærewardÆ so nonexistent that you bringing it up is more like a punch line to a joke. æRisk vs. RewardsÆ has become one of the elitistsÆ favorite phrases to use against play styles they hate, such as carebearing, without even realizing that it no longer carries weight in low sec. Honestly, youÆre better off calling me ælazyÆ, ægreedyÆ, or even æantisocialÆ rather than keep throwing the phrase ærisk vs. rewardÆ around.
And why all the alt posting all of a sudden? If anyone should be posting with an alt it should be me with all the hate mails and all the war-dec threats IÆve received :P. Anyway, I wonÆt bite. I promise. IÆm just a cute cuddly bear.
I'll post with whoever I want, it does nothing to invalidate my point.
Why is scanning every 5 seconds unacceptable? Other high risk activities demand it, why are you different?
Stop being so lazy, or give up your increased profits. Its not hard. |
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Susan Kennedy
Gallente Eddie Murphy Appreciation Society Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.27 04:59:00 -
[361]
Edited by: Susan Kennedy on 27/07/2009 05:04:35
Originally by: Exlegion
Wrong. There is risk even when using cloak + MWD I have lost ships in low sec. Last ship I lost was a about a week ago.
This is not true. I have never said that I havenÆt lost ships due to my missions being busted because the truth is I have lost my fair share, even before Apocrypha
IÆm not going to give you my losses, even if I knew where they were posted. Period
For the 6th time I ask you to show your losses. In a thread where you argue of the huge risk to mission runners in lowsec, and how they need assistance from CCP - I maintain
In lowsec there is little to no risk for an alert mission runner.
As we have discussed - There is only a tiny element of risk remaining in the probing stage.
And this is the stage you wish to have nerfed
Despite your previous comments, the only evidence for your own losses seem to indicate you have not lost a ship in lowsec for two years.
If true this would of course, utterly undermine your case. It could hardly be argued life is tough for a mission runner in lowsec, if the chief proponent for nerfing of probing hadn't lost a ship for two years.
RECAP:
When asked to point out where in the mission runner life cycle (post 331) there was an element of risk to the mission runner - you pointed out in the past you had suffered cloak-mwd failure, and also been killed in a busted mission.
All I asked for was evidence of this - Evidence you would not/or more probably could not provide.
I was expecting you to provide this evidence, and then we could continue the discussion having gauged the level of risk to a mission runner and whether that risk was overbearing.
Instead, to my amazement, you avoided the question, feigned ignorance over where this evidence might be found, launched into a tirade of insults, and finally point blanked refused to provide it.
Your refusal to provide evidence may lead one to the following conclusion:
YOU LIED
SUMMARY: The OP of this thread, who maintains Low Sec Mission running is so risky that combat probing needs to be nerfed was shown to be:
- clueless about the probing procedure (the original thread title of this thread was "how was i probed out without seeing probes on scan??!!") - wantonly ignorant (it took the OP 4 months to realize the probing mechanics had changed despite many threads and patch notes about it) - one sided and lacking in game experience (the ops self admited sole experience of the game mechanics being mission running - and never having probed out and attemped to kill another mission runner - nor having any idea of the methods, effort, time, and frustrations involved in it) - and now it appears he is at best unable to provide evidence crucial to his case, and at worst a liar (refusal/inability to provide evidence of risk to the alert mission runner through loss mails)
Your credibility and your arguments lie shattered.
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machyphy
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Posted - 2009.07.27 09:21:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Susan Kennedy Edited by: Susan Kennedy on 27/07/2009 05:04:35
Originally by: Exlegion
Wrong. There is risk even when using cloak + MWD I have lost ships in low sec. Last ship I lost was a about a week ago.
This is not true. I have never said that I havenÆt lost ships due to my missions being busted because the truth is I have lost my fair share, even before Apocrypha
IÆm not going to give you my losses, even if I knew where they were posted. Period
For the 6th time I ask you to show your losses. In a thread where you argue of the huge risk to mission runners in lowsec, and how they need assistance from CCP - I maintain
In lowsec there is little to no risk for an alert mission runner.
As we have discussed - There is only a tiny element of risk remaining in the probing stage.
And this is the stage you wish to have nerfed
Despite your previous comments, the only evidence for your own losses seem to indicate you have not lost a ship in lowsec for two years.
If true this would of course, utterly undermine your case. It could hardly be argued life is tough for a mission runner in lowsec, if the chief proponent for nerfing of probing hadn't lost a ship for two years.
RECAP:
When asked to point out where in the mission runner life cycle (post 331) there was an element of risk to the mission runner - you pointed out in the past you had suffered cloak-mwd failure, and also been killed in a busted mission.
All I asked for was evidence of this - Evidence you would not/or more probably could not provide.
I was expecting you to provide this evidence, and then we could continue the discussion having gauged the level of risk to a mission runner and whether that risk was overbearing.
Instead, to my amazement, you avoided the question, feigned ignorance over where this evidence might be found, launched into a tirade of insults, and finally point blanked refused to provide it.
Your refusal to provide evidence may lead one to the following conclusion:
YOU LIED
SUMMARY: The OP of this thread, who maintains Low Sec Mission running is so risky that combat probing needs to be nerfed was shown to be:
- clueless about the probing procedure (the original thread title of this thread was "how was i probed out without seeing probes on scan??!!") - wantonly ignorant (it took the OP 4 months to realize the probing mechanics had changed despite many threads and patch notes about it) - one sided and lacking in game experience (the ops self admited sole experience of the game mechanics being mission running - and never having probed out and attemped to kill another mission runner - nor having any idea of the methods, effort, time, and frustrations involved in it) - and now it appears he is at best unable to provide evidence crucial to his case, and at worst a liar (refusal/inability to provide evidence of risk to the alert mission runner through loss mails)
Your credibility and your arguments lie shattered.
wow you typed all that to flame someone 12 pages into a thread. you must really like being right
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Benco97
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.27 10:23:00 -
[363]
Edited by: Benco97 on 27/07/2009 10:24:03 I propose that we stop using "Risk Vs Reward" and use "Effort Vs Reward" in it's stead.
Risk aside, some people find the current system to need too much effort on their part and would like less effort for equal reward.
However, as much I would like to lambaste Exlegion for no real reason other than somewhat disliking him I do find that I am in at least partial agreement, I would like something to change in the current system but at the same time it needs to stay fast and rewarding for the pirates too and without impacting the ability of explorers to quickly find their sites/wormholes.
How about we remove the ability to find ships from the deep space probe and add a SLIGHT scan time penalty to the combat probe but increase it's sensor strength?
Personally I am fine with the current system but I can see that it is a difficult situation to balance, no doubt about that.
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.27 11:53:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Benco97 How about we remove the ability to find ships from the deep space probe and add a SLIGHT scan time penalty to the combat probe but increase it's sensor strength?
I think this could work and is probably the easiest workaround. Exploration probes need not to be touched even.
Someone earlier in the thread had suggested that probes take time traveling to their locations (as they somewhat do already) and for this time to count as being in space, giving the prey additional time at detection. So for example, once the "analyze" button is pressed, probes warp to their locations perhaps at slower speeds, and while getting there they become scannable by anyone within the scanning range. I thought this was a neat idea and does not brake RP immersion.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.27 13:13:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Exlegion blah blah blah
i like how he is now just ignoring the people against his position now
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.27 13:16:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Exlegion some more drivel about how it should take longer to probe
really i must ask again why do you think you deserve this when people mining or ratting in lowsec do not have to be probed and often make less ISK per hour than missions?
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Princess Loretta
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Posted - 2009.07.27 13:26:00 -
[367]
Mining in low-sec??? Really???? Why???
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Susan Kennedy
Gallente Eddie Murphy Appreciation Society Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.27 14:25:00 -
[368]
Edited by: Susan Kennedy on 27/07/2009 14:30:02
Originally by: machyphy
Originally by: Susan Kennedy
SUMMARY: The OP of this thread, who maintains Low Sec Mission running is so risky that combat probing needs to be nerfed was shown to be:
- clueless about the probing procedure (the original thread title of this thread was "how was i probed out without seeing probes on scan??!!") - wantonly ignorant (it took the OP 4 months to realize the probing mechanics had changed despite many threads and patch notes about it) - one sided and lacking in game experience (the ops self admited sole experience of the game mechanics being mission running - and never having probed out and attemped to kill another mission runner - nor having any idea of the methods, effort, time, and frustrations involved in it) - and now it appears he is at best unable to provide evidence crucial to his case, and at worst a liar (refusal/inability to provide evidence of risk to the alert mission runner through loss mails)
Your credibility and your arguments lie shattered.
wow you typed all that to flame someone 12 pages into a thread. you must really like being right
Well the OP put out a cry for rational discussion and an end to flames.
So I simply approached the problem in a scientific way, identified the mission runner life cycle, and sought to identify really "where are the elements of risk and how risky are they"
This is CRUCIAL to the ops argument. As if it indeed transpired there was little to no risk - then his clamourings for risk to mission runners to be REDUCED would be void.
This was the basis of my argument and I looked forward to the rational debate the op called for. Unfortunately (and the reading public are free to make up their own mind, but i think the situation regarding the OP LYING is fairly clear) he didnt like rational discussion of his problems, and chose to revert to the flaming he purports to dislike.
The only evidence available shows that the op has not died in two years in lowsec. In the absence of any other evidence, and a refusal from the OP to provide the evidence he claims he has, we must assume this is correct.
Of course, this makes the OP'S demands and posts a farce. He is SEEKING TO LOWER THE RISKS IN A SITUATION WHERE THE RISK ARE ALREADY SO LOW HE HAS NOT LOST A SHIP IN 2 YEARS
Now of course, empty handed when asked for EASY TO PROVIDE PROOF he is stonewalling the rational debate he asked for, sticking his fingers in his ears, and hoping the issue will go away and he can continue to parrot his demands for CCP to intervene to make his relentless Solo isk grind easier and easier and easier.
Unfortunately, I am not going away. Rational argument will win out over self interested liers.
For the 7th time, i ask.... NAY DEMAND the op provides the proof for his statements!!!!
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.28 11:53:00 -
[369]
Just thought of another solution that might work. ECCM could provide a small deviation to a prober using the D-scanner. In other words, fitting an ECCM to a ship not only would be harder to probe using probes (as it currently is), but anyone scanning for an ECCM-fit ship with the onboard scanner would also suffer a small deviation. This deviation on the onboard scanner would be chance-based, meaning if the prober pinpoints a ship 'accurately' enough by using the onboard scanner he will still be able to acquire a 100% warpable hit on the first try. The only change CCP would make is boost ECCM by allowing it to 'mask' the exact location of a mission zone. And again, this would be chance-based. A mission runner now has additional windows of opportunities to detect probes if the prober doesn't get a 100% hit on the first try.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Susan Kennedy
Gallente Eddie Murphy Appreciation Society Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.28 13:48:00 -
[370]
Edited by: Susan Kennedy on 28/07/2009 13:56:14
Originally by: Exlegion self bumping guff
Your odd little own-thread bumping suggestions are how to
FIX A PROBLEM THAT DOES NOT EXIST
Originally by: Exlegion
Wrong. There is risk even when using cloak + MWD I have lost ships in low sec. Last ship I lost was a about a week ago.
This is not true. I have never said that I havenÆt lost ships due to my missions being busted because the truth is I have lost my fair share, even before Apocrypha
IÆm not going to give you my losses, even if I knew where they were posted. Period
For the 8th time, I ask you for the proof you claim to have of your losses. Simple proof (available under the character sheet-combatlog-losses tab) which would dispel the current situation wherby the forum holds you as LYING IN AN ATTEMPT TO SUPPORT YOUR OWN REQUESTS.
Q:Why will you not post proof? Perhaps because you dont have any. Q:Why are you stonewalling me? Perhaps because you are a LIAR.
I ask you why should CCP or the forums listen to a liar?
A liar Who ignores rational debate in an effort to pursue game changes to his own benefit, and to the detriment of other players.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.28 15:41:00 -
[371]
Le Skunk,
IÆm going to only say this one more time, and after that you can feel free to bump and troll my thread as much as you like, as you arenÆt the type of person I particularly enjoy conversing with.
I have lost my fair share of ships in low sec. I donÆt lose ships often as I am very careful and paranoid in low sec. I am not going to post my losses to prove you anything. If you think low sec isnÆt dangerous enough I respect your opinion. I disagree, but I respect it. With that said, IÆm not in low sec to just ônot lose shipsö. I donÆt go to low sec just to be paranoid and avoid your gate camps. I want to actually make a profit there as well. I play the game to build my riches. ItÆs how I have my fun, as you have yours perhaps gate camping. And from what I have been lead to believe low sec is supposed to have better rewards along with more danger. Unfortunately, because of the extra time I spend protecting myself from the threats of low sec, I have a greater downtime of loss profits. More time spent being careful = Less time making profit. And itÆs why I created this thread; to bring this to the attention of those that might care in knowing, including CCP.
I escaped your 3-man gate camp two weeks ago. I swear, if I would have known it bothered you that much I would have even let you pod me that day. YouÆre so engorged in misery and hate and so focused in projecting your negativity unto others that youÆve lost sight and perspective on whatÆs important. Using over-sized fonts, spamming, and trolling? Come on, my man. I know youÆre a grown man.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Susan Kennedy
Gallente Eddie Murphy Appreciation Society Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2009.07.28 17:51:00 -
[372]
Originally by: Exlegion Le Skunk,
IÆm going to only say this one more time, and after that you can feel free to bump and troll my thread as much as you like, as you arenÆt the type of person I particularly enjoy conversing with.
I have lost my fair share of ships in low sec. I donÆt lose ships often as I am very careful and paranoid in low sec. I am not going to post my losses to prove you anything. If you think low sec isnÆt dangerous enough I respect your opinion. I disagree, but I respect it. With that said, . ItÆs how I have my fun, as you have yours perhaps gate camping. And from what I have been lead to believe low sec is supposed to have better rewards along with more danger... More time spent being careful = Less time making profit. And itÆs why I created this thread; to bring this to the attention of those that might care in knowing, including CCP.
I escaped your 3-man gate camp two weeks ago. I swear, if I would have known it bothered you that much I would have even let you pod me that day. YouÆre so engorged in misery and hate and so focused in projecting your negativity unto others that youÆve lost sight and perspective on whatÆs important. Using over-sized fonts, spamming, and trolling? Come on, my man. I know youÆre a grown man.
Your points addressed.
* Your complaint about how i present my posts: Font sizes, colors, underlining, paragraph breaks are generally used in longer posts to promote readability, and to enable the casual reader to quickly pick up the message as opposed to the "wall of text" approach. Im sorry you have an issue with this though its totally off topic, and an irrelevant point for you to make. I have only ever asked you to look at the content of my posts, and this childish issue with the presentation again shows how you evade and ignore things that dont suit you.
* Your Complaint about Spamming and Trolling: Please read back through the recent posts. You will see I deliberately cut out anything that could be misconstrued as trolling in an attempt to bring you into a rational conversation. Everything I said was fact. I don not agree I have spammed either, your ignoring my posts in fact invited me to pursue you - particulaly on the issue of the killmails.
* Your smack, and flames I am not interested in your flames and character assaninations. I am merely here to debate rationaly over the issue (or as i maintain - lack of an issue). Though full marks for the use of the word "engorged" in your flames.
* Your choice of gamestlye You choice of gamestyle is valid, and I do hope you enjoy it.
* You dont enjoy conversing with me. Im sorry you feel that way, but I can understand that my pressing, accurate, uncomfortable and pertinent questions would not be particularly enjoyable for you and your case. I would suggest however, if you dont want to receive opinions other then your own, dont post on a PUBLIC forum.
* Your Telling CCP how to suck eggs CCP spent considerable time on the new probing system and Im sure they are happy you brought what they already knew to their attention. Your desire was not to "bring it to their attention" as to GET IT CHANGED (hence the three posts you have spawned on the issue)
Now, you have said once more you believe low sec to be dangerous to the alert mission runner. I have stated the opposite opinion and given evidence for my opinions.
You then claimed to have lost ships cloakmwding (in the last 2 weeks) and also in busted missions.
YET YOU REFUSE TO PROVIDE THE PROOF
I would like to believe you, i spent time searching for these kills. What else is one to believe other then you lied to support your case?
Why should a posters case be valid when he has lied to support it
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.28 20:14:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Exlegion Le Skunk,
you have no proof of this
Quote: you arenÆt the type of person I particularly enjoy conversing with.
IE someone who disagrees with him
Quote: I have lost my fair share of ships in low sec.
no proof, refuse to post loss
Quote: I am not going to post my losses to prove you anything.
no losses to post in last 2 years, so anything you actually did post would only be further evidence against you
Quote: I want to actually make a profit there as well.
as i said in earlier post, plenty of people make profit in lowsec/0.0 mission running/exploration (myself included) without complaint
Quote: from what I have been lead to believe low sec is supposed to have better rewards along with more danger.
this has already been proven wrong many times in this thread, in many cases you can make more money in hisec mission than lowsec, primary because of the risk involved with lowsec. many intelligent people understand this and strictly run hisec missions, yet you doggedly refuse to do so.
Quote: because of the extra time I spend protecting myself from the threats of low sec, I have a greater downtime of loss profits.
the exact same can be said about 0.0 missions, yet i dont see you whining about that, because it doesnt affect you
Quote: And itÆs why I created this thread; to bring this to the attention of those that might care in knowing, including CCP. to make my endless solo grind for ISK easier
fixed
Quote: YouÆre so engorged in misery and hate and so focused in projecting your negativity unto others that youÆve lost sight and perspective on whatÆs important. Using over-sized fonts, spamming, and trolling? Come on, my man. I know youÆre a grown man.
ad hominem
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Iece Quaan
Caldari Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.07.28 20:19:00 -
[374]
There's really two issues here:
1. It's hard, damn hard to catch people in pvp. The opponent basically has to make some sort of mistake in order to get tackled in a position he can be killed. Opponents can grief aggressors in a multitude of ways by target denial. Predictably, the ability to get into fights at all is jealously guarded by pvpers, b/c they measure their success in number of kills.
2. It's also hard to avoid fights and do anything you want to get done. Let's face it, space is an environment where you can be ganked at any time ( even hisec ). Your situational awareness needs to be %110 at all times when undocked. Gankers can grief PVErs simply by having a presence in the same system; this is play denial by threat of engagement. Predictably, the PVEr jealously guards any measure that will let him avoid engagements; b/c the PVEr measures success in isk and assets.
The problem: Most pvp in eve is ganking. The scrammed = dead mechanic leaves few options for either side other than playstyle denial, which is why there is such venom on both sides of the argument. You really only win by refusing to play the other person's game.
It needs to be easier to engage players, but players need more options for escape. Engagement options need to be balanced against escape options. I like what they did with core stabs, for example. Give up the ability to fight for an extremely high probability of escape- with one counter- the hictor.
Currently, the counter for combat probes isn't balanced. IE- the best chance of not being probed is to not play ( in one way or another; cloaking, docking, or logging isn't playing ). The current trend of threads about making unscannable ships looks like a solution- except in cases where it doesn't actually help ( IE the site you're doing is scannable by core probes or your ship can't be unscannable ).
Don't know what the solution is here, but it probably involves changing deadspace characteristics to give ships inside them some extra coverage somehow. Sig bonuses won't work, because manual triangulation is still possible with the always-100%-accurate-dscanner.
Bad game design, hope it gets addressed.. spamming dscan basically sucks- especially when you do it and it doesn't work. =P
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.28 20:31:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Iece Quaan but players need more options for escape.
spoken like a true PVEr. if you are a true pvper and you get into a fight you should be willing to lose your ship. this is not hello kitty its EVE where pvp has consequences. if you or anyone has a problem with that then get back to hisec where you belong.
Quote: I like what they did with core stabs, for example.
what in gods name do warp core stabs have to do with PVP? FAIL
Quote: Currently, the counter for combat probes isn't balanced.
yes it is its called warping to station and docking, or, heres a shocker, kill the person that is probing you down
Quote: The current trend of threads about making unscannable ships looks like a solution
yeah that looks pretty cool lets come up with more ways to be completely safe from pvp, ace idea there
Quote: Don't know what the solution is here,
obvious
Quote:
Bad game design CCP i cant grind mission carelessly anymore please fix this
fixed
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Iece Quaan
Caldari Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.07.28 20:54:00 -
[376]
Wow. =P
Slobbery troll is slobbery =)
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Katsuri Minamoto
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Posted - 2009.07.28 21:18:00 -
[377]
Originally by: SK Rooster
Bad game design CCP i cant grind mission carelessly anymore please fix this
fixed
Dude... Give Iece Quaan a little more credit than that! It doesn't matter which side your on, his assessment of both sides of the coin in regards to play style denial is dead on right, and he is more or less blaming that as the problem. He isn't exactly trying to blindly champion the pve'rs side of this, so why flame him so hard?
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.28 21:53:00 -
[378]
Iece Quaan,
Great post. I appreciate your objective view. And your assessment on the D-scanner I thought was spot-on. Which is actually why I propose (itÆs just a suggestion, folks!) that ECCM not only increase sensor strength but also distort the actual position readout of a ship. That way, the D-scanner no longer guarantees 100% accuracy when reading the position on an ECCM-fit ship. It gives a prober an additional incentive to use the probe launcher. In turn, one would not need to spam the scan button as often. And this could actually give the ECCM module a nice little boost hopefully without overpowering it. Anyway, itÆs just an idea running through my head. IÆd like to hear what you guys think.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Iece Quaan
Caldari Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.07.28 21:53:00 -
[379]
Edited by: Iece Quaan on 28/07/2009 21:54:44 After some thought, I have hit on a solution:
Retracting one or more probes causes an instant recalculation of your current hits, with no scan delay.
If you retract your probes, you lose all of your current hits. If you retract one or more probes and leave some out, the remaining probes instantly recalculate their hits, probably lowering hit strength.
Edit: to make this perfect, you'd have to remove the ability to retract probes during warp.
Simple, elegant. PVPrs still catch the nappers, and the vigilant get some warning. I support this change for Combat AND Core probes, to make it even for everyone.
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Iece Quaan
Caldari Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.07.28 22:00:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Exlegion Iece Quaan,
Great post. I appreciate your objective view. And your assessment on the D-scanner I thought was spot-on. Which is actually why I propose (itÆs just a suggestion, folks!) that ECCM not only increase sensor strength but also distort the actual position readout of a ship. That way, the D-scanner no longer guarantees 100% accuracy when reading the position on an ECCM-fit ship. It gives a prober an additional incentive to use the probe launcher. In turn, one would not need to spam the scan button as often. And this could actually give the ECCM module a nice little boost hopefully without overpowering it. Anyway, itÆs just an idea running through my head. IÆd like to hear what you guys think.
Mm, the problem with your suggestion is that the ECCM would need to wildly distort the position of the ship, on the order of hundreds of thousands of k- in order to make the manual traingulation margin of error high enough to matter. With good skills you can nail a large ship at 2.0 au probe range.. and it seems like it would be a lot of extra coding. Doesn't solve the issue of the aggressor probing the site itself out ( if the target is in an explo site ).
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.28 22:31:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Iece Quaan Retracting one or more probes causes an instant recalculation of your current hits, with no scan delay.
ill ask the same question i asked Exlegion: why would you think that you or any mission runner deserve this? as is the current system in many cases mission runners make more ISK per hour than either ratting or mining, and they dont have to be probed out.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.28 22:54:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Iece Quaan Edited by: Iece Quaan on 28/07/2009 21:54:44 After some thought, I have hit on a solution:
Retracting one or more probes causes an instant recalculation of your current hits, with no scan delay.
If you retract your probes, you lose all of your current hits. If you retract one or more probes and leave some out, the remaining probes instantly recalculate their hits, probably lowering hit strength.
Edit: to make this perfect, you'd have to remove the ability to retract probes during warp.
Simple, elegant. PVPrs still catch the nappers, and the vigilant get some warning. I support this change for Combat AND Core probes, to make it even for everyone.
This actually sounds reasonable. I like it. And probably wouldn't require a whole lot of coding.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Iece Quaan
Caldari Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.07.28 23:08:00 -
[383]
Edited by: Iece Quaan on 28/07/2009 23:11:55 Edited by: Iece Quaan on 28/07/2009 23:09:26
Originally by: SK Rooster
Originally by: Iece Quaan Retracting one or more probes causes an instant recalculation of your current hits, with no scan delay.
ill ask the same question i asked Exlegion: why would you think that you or any mission runner deserve this? as is the current system in many cases mission runners make more ISK per hour than either ratting or mining, and they dont have to be probed out.
Deserve?
Eve is about assets, both amassing them and removing them. Every player deserves a reasonable chance of succeeding at whatever side they choose to play. You as a pvper deserve a reasonable chance of catching people and removing their assets from the game. The pve'er deserves an equally reasonable chance of preserving those assets.
Isk amount of mission rewards is a totally separate issue ( one that I agree needs to be looked at ). The risk of lowsec mining desperately needs to be looked at. Lowsec ratting, not so much, every rat in lowsec can be farmed with a properly fit rifter, which is already impossible to catch ( and that is also a problem ).
In any case, the problem of the combat probe isn't restricted to missioners, what about people in lowsec and wspace exploration sites?
Do you honestly think running sleeper sites or high level plexes carries no risk? In a sleeper site, you don't even have an accelerator gate to give you any time. Paradoxically, you need stronger ( read: more expensive ) ships to even complete them- driving the risk still higher. A resource site ( grav, ladar ) is FAR more vulnerable even than a lowsec asteroid belt- no local warning and if a pro is on you, you never see the probes. Or the ships.
Let it be known that I still think it should be easier- that is, pvpers get more opportunities- to engage targets without all this scanning rigamarole. For example, what if you could deploy bubbles/hic bubbles in lowsec.. as long as there wasn't a NPC sov object on the same grid ( IE station or gate )? I also think the acceleration gate should deposit you at a random location around the warp in point, just like a regular gate jump.
The whole point of this thread is that vigilance can get you NOTHING. No warning at all. Your position is that it's perfectly balanced for a person in a deadspace site to hammer that scan button every three seconds to even have a chance of warning. It might ALMOST be reasonable in lowsec, since you have local warning.. Almost. However, when you include wspace into the picture, it's entirely unreasonable.
If you read, and think about what i'm saying.. if there ways in which you could catch people were a bit more numerous, you wouldn't have to depend on things like this to get fights. If you could use bubbles in lowsec, fights would come to you- literally =P
I have a bunch of ideas with regard to this stuff.. maybe i'll make a new thread =P
Addendum: The only thing preventing every pve'er in the game from being repeatedly scanned down and murdered is the size of the game itself. If the player density were higher, or the game smaller, this would look like a much bigger issue.
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.28 23:36:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Iece Quaan The whole point of this thread is that vigilance can get you NOTHING.
No. The whole point of this thread is that lowsec missions are too dangerous now, as per the new probing system. Plenty of tools exist to combat the danger.
1. local 2. scanner 3. staying aligned 4. being part of a corp that can help against pirates 5. having an alt to scout/jam/whatever
Yet people such as yourself would like to know with absolute certainty when someone is probing them. Heaven help if you were to experience actual danger; the fear of not knowing what might happen should you continue to run the mission.
If you are afraid to lose your ship:
1. dock up 2. log off 3. leave system 4. go to hisec
As I have said countless times in this thread, the problem is that people such as yourself do not want to experience danger they only want to reap the rewards of the mission.
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.29 00:01:00 -
[385]
Originally by: SK Rooster No. The whole point of this thread is that lowsec missions are too dangerous now, as per the new probing system. Plenty of tools exist to combat the danger.
No. The whole point of this thread is that low sec missions have become less profitable because of the new probing system. I've said this numerous times but you keep ignoring it. Staying aligned does not help you earn the isk a mission runner loses due to downtime. But you've already said that low sec isn't about better profits for the greater risk, so we disagree on the premise to begin with and we'll never get anywhere anyway.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.29 00:13:00 -
[386]
Originally by: SK Rooster Yet people such as yourself would like to know with absolute certainty when someone is probing them. Heaven help if you were to experience actual danger; the fear of not knowing what might happen should you continue to run the mission.
I have made it clear that I am not after absolute certainty (or 100% detection rate). But you know what does have a 100% detection rate? The D-scanner. And it just so happens that the prober need not to spam it every 5 seconds to get a result .
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Jaroslav Hasek
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Posted - 2009.07.29 00:51:00 -
[387]
Not sure if anyone is interested in what this 4 month old player thinks but here goes:
I explore solo in lowsec in my rupture. I scan every 10 seconds looking for probes, it can take me any where from 5 minutes to 30 minutes to complete a site. Yes it is tedious to keep hitting the scan button but I continue to do it because the rewards are worth it. I also do it because I actually enjoy the risk.
I can't PVP properly yet, I don't have the skills, so this is my PVP - playing cat and mouse. It is fun to be half way through a radar site when a group of pirates show up in local, I get an adrenaline rush trying to complete and make it out in one piece.
If this is nerfed to make lowsec safer then I for one wont be happy. Lowsec is supposed to be dangerous,I don't want it made safer so thousands of highsec players come flooding in making competition in exploration unbearable. I'm not good enough to go to WH space or nullsec.
If you dont like the risk of losing your precious ship or losing your agent standing you should stay out of lowsec.
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SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.29 03:08:00 -
[388]
Originally by: Exlegion No. The whole point of this thread is that low sec missions have become less profitable because of the new probing system.
Yes and you propose that the best way to fix this problem is to nerf the system that just got boosted. well let me spoil it for you. CCP are not going to nerf something they just boosted.
5 years ago when I started probing was done with triangulation but the system map did not exist. at the time they did not have the programming expertise to create a system map so the system was changed to the chance based system that many people used for so long. once they had the code for a system map the triangulation system for probing was put back in.
CCP is not going to nerf something they have basically had on the table for 5 years so that your missions will be safer. CCP does not want people to be safe in lowsec. Why do you think heavy interdictor were put into the game? pirates in lowsec flying mothership were basically invincible, and CCP did not like the fact of someone being too safe in lowsec, even a PVPer, so im sure they do not care about the safety of your lowsec mission.
TLDR: your cries to CCP are falling on deaf ears. if you want more profit in lowsec ASK FOR IT, dont ask for a nerf to a probing system that is already pretty bad except for probing stationary targets (which you would know if you actually did probing). i agree that lowsec mission rewards need to be boosted, but do not touch the current probing system.
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Faife
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.07.29 05:03:00 -
[389]
holy crap, that guy is trolling the crap out of a serious who's who of EVE's pirate clique
well done. -- Check out my EVE cartoons |
Faife
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.07.29 05:05:00 -
[390]
Edited by: Faife on 29/07/2009 05:05:56 [[db]] -- Check out my EVE cartoons |
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Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.29 21:48:00 -
[391]
Edited by: Exlegion on 29/07/2009 21:57:19
Originally by: Jaroslav Hasek Not sure if anyone is interested in what this 4 month old player thinks but here goes:
I explore solo in lowsec in my rupture. I scan every 10 seconds looking for probes, it can take me any where from 5 minutes to 30 minutes to complete a site. Yes it is tedious to keep hitting the scan button but I continue to do it because the rewards are worth it. I also do it because I actually enjoy the risk.
I can't PVP properly yet, I don't have the skills, so this is my PVP - playing cat and mouse. It is fun to be half way through a radar site when a group of pirates show up in local, I get an adrenaline rush trying to complete and make it out in one piece.
If this is nerfed to make lowsec safer then I for one wont be happy. Lowsec is supposed to be dangerous,I don't want it made safer so thousands of highsec players come flooding in making competition in exploration unbearable. I'm not good enough to go to WH space or nullsec.
If you dont like the risk of losing your precious ship or losing your agent standing you should stay out of lowsec.
Jaroslav,
Firstly, IÆll say that I totally agree with you in that low sec is supposed to be dangerous; very dangerous. And as unlikely as this may sound to you my intentions are not to make it safer. IÆve lived in low sec for quite some time now and have learned to survive low sec quite well. Unfortunately, and from my experience, low sec danger has become increasingly and indirectly proportional to profit, at least in the mission-running profession. In other words, the more danger the mission runner is exposed to the less profit there is to be made. ItÆs not to say that profit cannot be made.
When a system is devoid of neutrals and pirates missions can be easily completed. With the presence of even one neutral the proper course of action is to dock the mission-running ship and do something else. This is what I refer to as profit downtime, because no matter what I do after docking my profit-earner I wonÆt be making isk. Before Apocrypha this wasnÆt a big deal because my profit downtime wasnÆt so bad. I could still profit even with neutrals and pirates in the area. As long as I didnÆt pick up probes on my onboard scanner I could assume there was a decent chance I was not being probed. After Apocrypha it would be rash for me to take that chance. My only reasonable option has become to ground my isk-earning ship, therefore adding more downtime to profit-earning.
Your experience in low sec is different and I think thatÆs a very good sign for your profession. It means exploration may not be suffering from this extra ôdowntimeö problem that I am experiencing. And there could be a couple of reasons for this. First, an explorer isnÆt necessarily bound to a location in space, meaning, if your site is busted you can choose to leave the site without repercussions other than a lost opportunity along with lost ammo and time (assuming you were aligned and were not pointed). A mission runner has to be a little more protective of his mission site because there are negative implications for not finishing a mission. Pre-Apocrypha, the onboard scanner offered a reasonable opportunity to protect that site.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.29 21:50:00 -
[392]
I would also like to agree that knowing that I am being hunted produces quite an enjoyable adrenaline rush. But I think that rush is quickly becoming monotonous due to the constant in-and-out of neutrals and pirates and as a consequence, having to dock because my onboard scanner is pretty much blind post-Apocrypha. If I only had to spam the scan button every 30 seconds a few minutes at a time that wouldnÆt be so bad either. I think I could actually live with that. But ultimately I think that our different experiences are due to some not-so-obvious differences between our professions. Additionally, because of the current nature of mission-running there is a very æwackyÆ relationship between risk and reward in low sec. The more risk I am exposed to in low sec, the lower the rewards.
I am not necessarily asking for safety, but rather less profit downtime. So the question is how do we improve that downtime without affecting low sec safety? In other words, how do we increase rewards without affecting the risk? The obvious answer is increase rewards. But the obvious answer may not necessarily be the correct one in this case, as increasing the low sec rewards in such a way as to balance the downtime may have a negative impact in the future. And that is the dilemma weÆre having here. I think Iece Quaan thought of a solution that actually minimizes this effect (improves profit while minimizing the negative impact on PVP).
Originally by: Faife holy crap, that guy is trolling the crap out of a serious who's who of EVE's pirate clique
well done.
Seriously? I feel like itÆs me being trolled on .
And if Le Skunk is considered to be a serious WhoÆs Who within the pirate community, the pirate community is in trouble.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.07.29 22:29:00 -
[393]
This stupid thread is still alive? Let it die already. Oh wai....
-murder one
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 |
SK Rooster
Gallente No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.07.29 22:48:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Exlegion wall of text
up until your last paragraph i actually agreed with everything you said hehe
Quote: I am not necessarily asking for safety, but rather less profit downtime.
for the umpteenth time: if you calculate your ISK per hour in lowsec missions (including profit downtime), the result will be less than hisec missions. RUN MISSIONS IN HISEC.
Until the day that lowsec mission rewards get boosted, it is simply not worth doing. If you are smart you would be campaigning for increased lowsec mission rewards, i would back you 100%. even if they double the bounties i dont care.
Quote: And if Le Skunk is considered to be a serious WhoÆs Who
i think she was talking about me
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 00:48:00 -
[395]
i'd run low-sec missions if a 4/20 agent yielded ~200k LP for one of the biggies, including con skills
or allow low sec mission buggers to the new FW LP store - putting the gist back into logistics |
Exlegion
Caldari Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.08.04 12:03:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider i'd run low-sec missions if a 4/20 agent yielded ~200k LP for one of the biggies, including con skills
or allow low sec mission buggers to the new FW LP store
I'd actually agree to something like this. But the rewards would need to be high enough to offset the downtime a mission runner is subjected to in low sec, which is quite significant. But *my* ideal solution would be to fix the broken mechanics that cause excessive downtime (ie, overlapping in function of the probing system with the scanning system). It just seems more sensible then skyrocketing profits.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Bellac
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:34:00 -
[397]
Edited by: Bellac on 04/08/2009 13:41:36
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Ku'Nari Skywall
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:38:00 -
[398]
Originally by: SK Rooster Until the day that lowsec mission rewards get boosted, it is simply not worth doing.
The Directional Scanner issue will still remain. Simply buffing low-sec mission rewards isn't the answer and is really a separate issue.
There must be a reasonable chance of a skilled low-sec mission runner (I believe the OP Is) seeing the probes on a Directional Scanner result without having to hit the scan button every 4 seconds. Click Scan, Scroll List, (repeat) there is no time to even run the mission.
I like the idea to put probes on the overview, then the mission runner only has to click scan with a properly setup overview setting.
If the above doesn't work what about having probes leave an echo for 10sec after a scan. The echo would be picked up on a directional but the Prober wouldn't be effected as the probes would act just as they do now.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.09.15 19:32:00 -
[399]
Wait. I thought that accourding to the common logic of teh forums that the d-scanner is totally useless now for anything at all.
Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal |
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