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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
McDaddy Pimp
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:20:00 -
[61]
Flawless victory for CCP!
Sized rigs, awesome! This will make rigging t1 frigs/cruisers practical, thus reducing the isk factor in pvp
New BPOs awesome! Opens up new opportunities to small starting industrialist, new research jobs, new spreadsheets, bigger ninja salvaging ship
Rigs repossessing/"alchemy" , half-awesome. Makes T2 rigs cheaper , again decrease the isk factor in pvp, but pls make it low sec only.
Allover, an awesome mini-expansion imo. Makes pvpving cheaper so more shooting each other and less doing missions (to replace their lost ).
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Bogu D
Clans of the Sanctums
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:23:00 -
[62]
A bit irrelevant since Chronotis latest post but anyway...
First of I would like to introduce the concept of the Dry Dock Bay for rigged ship transportation. It's similar to a Ship Maintenace Array but can only be accessed by the ships pilot in station or near a POS Ship Maintenace Array.
Basicly there're 3 options:
New ship - Mobile Dry Dock Specialised freighter able to use stargates. Can only transport assembled ships up to Battleships, rigged or not. The capacity is somewhere between 1 and 2 mil m3.
PRO - visually you can do some amazingly cool stuff CON - high development cost for a niche ship
Rigs on Freighter/Jump Freighter After market customisation of Freighters through rigs. Add 3 rig slots to Freighters.
Freighter rigs: Dry Dock conversion rig - 100% conversion of cargo bay to Dry dock Expanded Dry Dock rig - X% bonus to dry dock size
PRO - giving an existing niche ship an extra role CON - conversion is semi-permanent, Jump Freighter capacity is low-ish
Dry Dock Bay modules for Orcas and Carriers Allow existing multirole ships to be specialised through a dedicated module. The Dry Dock Bay module converts the Ship Maintenance Array into a Dry Dock Bay but has severe penalties. A new skill would increase the bonus of this new module. Only Battleships and smaller can be transported.
Dry Dock Bay I (Orca) Bonus: +38% to Dry Dock Bay capacity per skill level (= up to 2 BS)
Penalty: - No Corporate Hanger - minus 90% to Cargohold capacity - minus 50% to Structure HP
Captial Dry Dock Bay I (Carrier) Fitting this demilitarises the carrier due to the penalties and allows it in high sec. Bonus: +35% to Dry Dock Bay capacity per skill level (= up to 5 BS)
Penalty: - Removal of all Carrier bonuses - Drone bay and bandwidth reduced to 125m3 - No Corporate Hangar - minus 75% to Shield/Armor/Structure HP - minus 90% to Capacitor Capacity
PRO - expands on existing ships and abilities, penalties keep risk vs reward in balance CON - people will read Carrier + high sec and go ballistic ignoring the penalties listed
Personally, I'd prefer the Dry Dock Bay modules but that's just me. And yes I'd like to pop a Dry Dock Carrier stuffed with expensive BS. What? At least I'm honest about it.
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Bogu D
Clans of the Sanctums
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:50:00 -
[63]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis ...The orca can indeed carry battlecruisers and below.
Battlecruisers, plural?
Last I checked I can only load one battlecruiser sized hull in the ship maintenance array. So there's no point in moving even a BC with an Orca. Unless you do it with an alt or ask a friend to do it.
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Letrange
Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2009.07.07 13:57:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Bogu D
Originally by: CCP Chronotis ...The orca can indeed carry battlecruisers and below.
Battlecruisers, plural?
Last I checked I can only load one battlecruiser sized hull in the ship maintenance array. So there's no point in moving even a BC with an Orca. Unless you do it with an alt or ask a friend to do it.
It comes in most handy when emptying out a POS ship maintenance array. Sometimes corp mates leave ships you can't fly and they are not online when you need to move it. So the ability to grab a BC and you can usually stuff at least a cruiser in with it, and fly it out comes in handy. You're still borked for any BS but at least you can get all the BC out. And if they can't follow instructions and leave nothing but ammo in them?, some scanner will get a nice present.
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Caldreis
Caldari White Star II Ethereal Advancement Coalition
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Posted - 2009.07.07 14:18:00 -
[65]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
There is a number of possible approaches to this, special bays are one possible solution as long as we do not arrive back at the matryoshka doll scenario with hauling capacity we had issues with in the past. The orca can indeed carry battlecruisers and below. It would not be right for it to be able to carry battleships however chiefly due to the orcas size and current focus.
One common idea is to allow freighters to use a special configuration rig which will reduce their cargobay capacity but add a reasonable ship maintenance bay which is big enough for battleships and have some checks to ensure the ship is empty before allowing a configuration change. This kind of approach is something we have thought about and will explore further in the future.
The freighter ferry a number of battleship via a module would be somewhat decent however not appeal to me as a solution. Because I like to just pick up and move around fairly often and never like to be tied down to one place doing one thing. Beside Orca could have some drawback while ferry a single battleship. Such as limit to only one ship in Orca ship maintenance while this module is fitted perhaps?
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Robot Robot
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Posted - 2009.07.07 14:37:00 -
[66]
IDEA:
Many people have been proposing the idea of just increasing T2 salvage drop rates and expanding them to T1 ships instead of having the salvage conversion POS reactor. I also saw somewhere a suggestion that salvaging may be too limited of a skill-tree (one skill, if you don't count the rigging skills which are manufacturing/spaceship-command skills anyway). and so:
MOAR SKILLS FOR SALVAGERS
First off, to have any chance of getting T2 salvage, you must be using a salvager II. If you are, then there is a base 0.5% chance that any individual piece of salvage you find will be T2. However if you have trained the appropriate skill:
Micro Circuit Reclamation (x5 training time. prereqs: Salvaging V, Electronics V, Electronics Upgrades V) Trigger Unit Reclamation (x5 training time. prereqs: Salvaging V, Gunnery V, Weapon Upgrades V) Shield Emitter Reclamation (x5 training time. prereqs: Salvaging V, Engineering V, Shield Upgrades V) etc.. etc...
then you can increase your chance of getting T2 salvage by 0.5% per level.
Yay! More skills to train and professional salvagers have a deep and real skill tree to pursue.
Extra Evil Bonus Option: base T2 chance and increased chance per level is 0.1% in high sec.
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StJamesofSorrow
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.07 15:47:00 -
[67]
There are currently 77 T1 rig bpo's. Seeding mediums and smalls will increase this to 231.
Would't it be more practical to have 1 bpo able to make all 3 sizes? Put a dialoge box similar to number of runs to choose what size to make.
bpo's are hard enough to organise without adding a whole bunch more that look the same and produce essentially the same thing.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.07.07 16:43:00 -
[68]
Originally by: StJamesofSorrow There are currently 77 T1 rig bpo's. Seeding mediums and smalls will increase this to 231.
Would't it be more practical to have 1 bpo able to make all 3 sizes? Put a dialoge box similar to number of runs to choose what size to make.
bpo's are hard enough to organise without adding a whole bunch more that look the same and produce essentially the same thing.
YES !
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Kaahles
E3 Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.07 16:45:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Grez
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Blah!
Get rid of 'packaged' size, and just have a universal size. I fail to understand how a Megathron 'packaged' is smaller than an 'unpackaged' one. Reduce the size, and viola, problem solved.
If you buy a bed, it comes in a package and you've to assemble it right? And packaged and unassembled it takes less space in your car, right?
Same principle. I don't say I like it (nor I say I don't like it) but it is an explanation. I personally call it the "IKEA-Principle"
About salvage conversion: I like the general idea but I fear that if a lot of people start the conversion that rig prices across the board will rise (at the beginning maybe even sky rocketing to the end of the universe) ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.07.07 16:53:00 -
[70]
"3. Salvage Conversion
Salvage conversion is something we have wanted to look at for a while. This is the ability to effectively fix broken salvage so it can be used to manufacture Tech II rigs. The most likely way this will be done is a through a reactor which will convert a quantity of broken salvage to fixed salvage in reactors which can be placed at high sec starbases."
If you think that rigs will be any cheaper in this system after implementing this part of it, you are crazy.
If you force 'alchemy' into it forcing reactors and more POSs, then you will drive up the price of rigs as operations will have to pay for their POS fuel as well (even if you mine it your self it has a cost....).
Also you would need to produce more salvage to maintain prices on current large ones, or I'd see folks spending more resources to supply small and medium ones thus driving up salvage prices overall.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. -Mitnal |
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Phantom Slave
JUDGE DREAD Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.07 16:55:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort
CCP Chronotis, I beg my pardon for rising the same question again, but that's just cause I really want to get an answer
Will you consider removing existing rigs to the ships cargoholds?
This will be a fair solution for those of us, who already have some expensive rigs mounted onto 'undersized' ships. They weren't undersized the moment we rigged'em, that's the entire point. No one was aware of the upcoming rig rebalance.
Can we at least get an option to relocate some really expensive tech2 ones? Via petitioning it or something. Why would I want to have 400 mil in rigs into my hac now when anyone can get the same effect for merely 80 mil?!
I'm not alone who thinks this will be a proper way to implement the new rig mechanics, which is generally a good thing. See here.
I don't think this will hurt anyone else.
The reason I doubt they will give any of us our rigs back to sell is because we're getting the bonuses right now, as opposed to everybody else waiting another month or two. You spent the isk to beef up your ship on your own free will, CCP shouldn't give us back our rigs just because we like shiny things.
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Phantom Slave
JUDGE DREAD Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.07 16:58:00 -
[72]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Large rigs can be used in capital ships. We did create capital sized rigs as well but decided to not introduce those yet and concentrate on the addition of small and medium rigs for the 1.5 patch.
It is actually something we are open to gathering opinions on as a capital sized rig would be much more expensive than large rigs and rigging your carrier would be much more costly if we did introduce them.
I would be very pleased if you did NOT introduce x-large rigs. As of right now, Cap ships are the new Battleships for large alliances. While yes, forcing them to use larger, more expensive rigs sounds like a good isk sink, all it really does is hurt the smaller corps/alliances and slows them from competing. Making cap ships cost more than they already do would widen the gap between the Haves and Have-Not's.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.07 17:07:00 -
[73]
1) Will large rigs still fit on cruisers and frigs ?
2) Is it too late to suggest the following?
How about if a rig is fitted to a small ship a percentage of the rig build components get returned to the hangar.
No need for 3 size blueprints then.
3) Will T2 small and medium rig bpc's drop in exploration sites. |
Krystal Vernet
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.07.07 17:32:00 -
[74]
Sounds good.
Though rather than the alchemy salvage thingamabob, would you consider adding in T2 salvage components to existing T1 wrecks? Make the drop rate suitably low. With the amount of wrecks in missions, it'll still bring in more T2 salvage, but it won't overflow the market or something. It makes sense too, since any wreck should have the change to spit out an intact piece of salvage.
Yes, it'll increase the income for mission runners, but it shouldn't make much of an increase that mission runners will suddenly be raking in billions a day or something.
Also, just to make sure I understand the blog right: Current rigs fit on anything small will stay there when the patch hits, right?
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Kessiaan
Minmatar MicroFunks
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Posted - 2009.07.07 17:40:00 -
[75]
At the prices you're throwing around, there will be very little reason NOT to rig frigs - T2 guns cost more than the estimated rig prices.
Cruisers will still be considered carefully though.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2009.07.07 17:58:00 -
[76]
Sounds dandy.. even the reactor in high sec thing.. give them bears something to play with, besides those dusty labs with half assed features and bugs.
To the low-sec-rednecks: Just use NRDS instead of NBSI if you want more life down there. Salvage is harvestable in high sec, not like gas or moon-mins.. so high sec for reactors is fine.
Totally Offtopic @ CCP: Any chance you'll have a look at the synth boosters? Their sales volume just doesn't cut the possible supply volume.. I think by a factor of 10+ at least. The features of the synth boosters just don't cut it..
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.07.07 18:55:00 -
[77]
Quote: Now that said while true both orca/carrier can fill the role for ferry ships but I am talking about rigged battleships, which can't ever be ferried in highsec other than actually piloting it. Do you really want carrier to be allowed in highsec? Won't anyone think of the noobs?!
What's wrong with rigged BS being difficult to move around? Battleships are big and slow. That's a strategic disadvantage that balances them with smaller ships.
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Caldreis
Caldari White Star II Ethereal Advancement Coalition
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Posted - 2009.07.07 19:04:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden What's wrong with rigged BS being difficult to move around? Battleships are big and slow. That's a strategic disadvantage that balances them with smaller ships.
While you are correct that they are slower to balance them vs smaller ship but in fact Orca is even slower than any of the battleships at: 2.75 AU/sec orca vs 3 AU/sec battleship. Another feature of the orca is that it trade up LOT of defense against gankers for cargohold space. What I like to do is to be able to ferry loots from missions to a market hub and ferry your battleship *one not plural* around. This won't unbalance battleship in anyway especially in highsec. Who would ferry battleships in nullsec? Oh that right they get blown up alot.
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2009.07.07 19:08:00 -
[79]
Are you actually sure that all rigs need this treatment?
Gravity Capacitor Upgrade rigs, for example, seem to be pretty much fine as they are and the market for a 'large' version seems like it would be pretty pitiful.
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Robot Robot
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Posted - 2009.07.07 19:45:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Celia Therone Are you actually sure that all rigs need this treatment?
Gravity Capacitor Upgrade rigs, for example, seem to be pretty much fine as they are and the market for a 'large' version seems like it would be pretty pitiful.
Please don't make too many assumptions.
*glances askance at her dual GCUed Hurricane*
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.07 20:19:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Originally by: StJamesofSorrow There are currently 77 T1 rig bpo's. Seeding mediums and smalls will increase this to 231.
Would't it be more practical to have 1 bpo able to make all 3 sizes? Put a dialoge box similar to number of runs to choose what size to make.
bpo's are hard enough to organise without adding a whole bunch more that look the same and produce essentially the same thing.
YES !
You really think it is easier to completely redo the industrial interface that simply add 154 BPO (and another equivalent 154 T2 BPC)?
That can be done if the industrial expansion will ever be deployed, not for a mini expansion like the one that will be done in August.
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KissedByDeath
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Posted - 2009.07.07 21:14:00 -
[82]
Originally by: StJamesofSorrow There are currently 77 T1 rig bpo's. Seeding mediums and smalls will increase this to 231.
Would't it be more practical to have 1 bpo able to make all 3 sizes? Put a dialoge box similar to number of runs to choose what size to make.
bpo's are hard enough to organise without adding a whole bunch more that look the same and produce essentially the same thing.
Yes Please yes. We have enough problems destinguishing bpo from bpcs as it. Last thing we need is to triple that.
another thought Convert Current Rigs on ships to large version and maybe be able to combine/split rigs into bigger/smaller ones?
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Caiman Graystock
Caldari Comrades in Construction
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Posted - 2009.07.07 21:27:00 -
[83]
CCP these are great changes. Please do NOT remove existing rigs to cargobays or hangers. This would not be the first change which devalued an item so the whingers will just have to grin and bear it like many of us have before when a mechanic came in making something we paid over the odds for much cheaper.
BPOs... just like others have asked, do we really need 154 new BPOs? Is there something preventing you implementing an option at manufacture to use a single BPO for all sizes?
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking... Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Thenoran
Caldari Tranquility Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.07 22:06:00 -
[84]
Awesome, finally rigging Frigates is an option really worth considering. Not sure about T2 rigs, it's not the cost that really bothers me with them, it's the lack of a proper bonus over the T1 variant. 10% for 15mil or 15% for anywhere between 100-300mil is not really an option. I suppose if Conversion is added, T2 rig prices would go down to match their bonuses. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum Pax Romana Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.08 00:15:00 -
[85]
Very nice blog on an excellent subject - opening up the feasibility of rigs to a wider range of ships is going to breathe a lot of life into smaller ships.
Originally by: Celia Therone Are you actually sure that all rigs need this treatment?
Gravity Capacitor Upgrade rigs, for example, seem to be pretty much fine as they are and the market for a 'large' version seems like it would be pretty pitiful.
It would probably be better than the market for Small Sentry Damage Augmentors.
Still, I think it's important not to arbitrarily make decisions on behalf of the playerbase. Create the rigs anyway, and let the players themselves decide whether they want to build, sell and/or use the rig. You could theoretically use a single sentry drone on an Ishkur, for example, and while that's probably not going to be sensible in any given situation it would be wrong to make it mechanically impossible.
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Robot Robot
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Posted - 2009.07.08 00:59:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
It would probably be better than the market for Small Sentry Damage Augmentors.
*loads up EFT and fits an ishkur with two Sentry Damage Augmentors and one bouncer ii*
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.08 01:15:00 -
[87]
As a very prolific T1 and T2 rig producer (and user) I got lots of thoughts on these changes and will write them all in the balancing thread.
I'd just like to point out though that you're missing a wonderful opportunity to create a real "profession" out of salvaging and rig manufacturing.
I personally would love to see low-sec anchorable "scrap yard" structures that you can put up either at a POS or a free standing structure in space. The purpose would perhaps be yet another industrial anchorable for pvpers to attack, but also perhaps these could be improved efficieny rig manufacturing structures and also the "salvage converters" for turning T1 salvage into T2 salvage.
This industrial activity really should be attackable and should not safely take place inside high sec stations in my opinion. It would add more to the game in terms of a "profession" to add another industrial risk activity that people can interfere with or persue for a slight benefit.
My concerns are that rigs will become less balanced 'again' (with perhaps unhittable T1 frigates, or cheaply rigged frigates outperforming unrigged T1 cruisers). Careful attention is needed that the "effective" bonuses scale with the effective cost : meaning for example that a 10% speed bonus may be much, much, more combat effective on a frigate compared to a battleship considering the new relative costs (especially if the just use a scaled down amount of the same salvage).
I think you will need to wipe away the standard bonus (+#%, -#%) for rig types, and actually have the rig bonus scaled too for certain rig types. I'll cover this more in the balancing thread.
I think overall this is a good idea as all ship classes should be able to be rigged giving relatively improved performance for the correct relative price. I do worry though from past experience of CCP balancing exercises that certain combinations will perform way way better than others and once that is discovered by the players it will get ruthlessly exploited (See NANOS).
It is a good that you're attempting to improve rigs, but be careful you dont make them "must fit" and tread carefully avoiding the temptation to keep the current penalty/bonuses for reduced costs or you WILL end up with nano-T1 frigate gangs regularly pawning battleship gangs etc
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Eowyn Ratih
Indicium Technologies
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:40:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Eowyn Ratih on 08/07/2009 11:43:34 First of all, I'm really looking forward to the changes on this level! But I have to agree and disagree with some comments within this forum, so here's my opinion:
- Multi-sized rigs
Very nice idea! Finally we will be able to rig the little ships too at a much lower cost, but there's the 'What if I want to move on?' (read further on).
- New blueprints?
Please no! There are already enough blueprints available on the markets. Please concentrate on making a (visual) difference between BPCs and BPOs first before creating another batch of new BPOs. The idea of making different sizes of rigs with 1 BPO has raised allready here. I can only agree on that. It would be much easier in use to have the same BPO for all 3 sizes of the same rig.
- Rig rebalanced.
I agree on that. Rigs should get some more love indeed. Some of the penalties are not relevant and some bonusses could use some extra care. I'm not going into details, but I sure can come up with some examples.
- Salvage conversion
Awesome idea! And against most others opinions, I would love to see this in high sec space too! Why should only PvP pilots or low sec pirates have the ability to convert their salvage to make T2 rigs? Even mission runners can have some nice benefits of it! And not all of these corporations have a POS available in low sec space. So, sorry guys, but I think everyone should have access to the conversion of his salvage!
- Transport of rigged ships
Finally! And I do agree with Nidhiesk's opinion: please keep it simple. When someone repackages his rigged ship, keep the rigs on the ship or give us the ability to recover the rigs. Although I like the idea of an specialised freighter too, but don't start with extra rigs or modules or what so ever.
This being said, my overall comment: keep up the good work!
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.07.08 12:03:00 -
[89]
I think the idea of having large rigs reprocess into medium rigs (plus leftover salvage to get the numbers even) and those into small rigs (plus leftover salvage to get the numbers even) and those into salvage would probably a more streamlined solution than dropping 150 new BPOs into the game. -------- Ideas for: Mining
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.08 13:23:00 -
[90]
Don't like the upprocessing of salvage. It nerfs profits from T2 salvage and gives more rewards to empire dwellers for no increased risk.
There isn't enough T2 salvage. The problem is that there is not enough T2 ships to salvage and possibly not enough drops from the T2 ships.
There are a bunch of small T2 ships which really are way to expensive, in my humble opinion. If EWAR frigs were only 5 mil a pop, they would be worth considering, for instance. You should look into increasing the supply of T2 ships, instead of creating this salvage alchemy thing.
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