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Niivvy
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Niivvy on 08/07/2009 14:31:44 OK, one of the features of fitting shield extenders is they they make your sig raduis larger, hence you are easiler to lock, this comes into play on gate camps where armor plated ships and shield tanked caldari, and some minmater ships jump in to a camp, or when you jump ontop of somone in a belt.
they should if ballanced be aprox. as vulnerable to the camp as each other, the plaes make you align slower but the lock time isnt affected, the shield mods you can align faster but are easier to lock.
well thats the idea....
i done some testing on this and heres what I got.
so to make the measurements as exadurated as possable i used a carrier to lock a celestis. With no shield mods it took me an avg of 20.9 seconds to lock. (this was done with a stop watch from the time I hit lock till i could activate a module on it, i know the in-game timer is bugged)
with 5 large shiled extender IIs fitted this took an avg 18.4 seconds to lock.
the sig increase on the ship is from 147m to 284m this is an increase of almost 100% but a lock timer modification of only 11%
using the pratical fitting of 1 or 2 shield extanders the diffrence was barly measurable.
putting an 800mm or especialy a 1600mm plate makes a HUGE diffrence to the align time of a ship.
anyone else think this in imbalanced?
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Weight What
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:32:00 -
[2]
CAPS CONTROL SET TO AWESOME -----------------------------------------------
Annonymous, trading as "Weight What". |
Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:33:00 -
[3]
If it's imbalanced in your described situation, it might be imbalanced in the other direction in another situation.
Whatever ship I fly, I am able to find an opponent flying a ship that gets trampled over, utterly trumps, or at least renders irrelevant, mine.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:41:00 -
[4]
If you take into account all differences and game mechanics involving plates and extenders, it is very balanced. Just because they aren't the exact same copy of each other doesn't mean they are not equivalent. -------- Ideas for: Mining
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Nicholas Barker
Duty.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:42:00 -
[5]
it doesn't just affect lock time, it effects how easily you can hit them when they're moving.
making it a lot harder to get under your guns, or simply out run them. ------
back from 90day forum ban. |
Fossil Wolf
omen. Gay4Life
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Weight What
CAPS CONTROL SET TO AWESOME
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Wai Ng'Tse
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Nicholas Barker it doesn't just affect lock time, it effects how easily you can hit them when they're moving.
Yes it does. But it mainly effects tracking
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5pinDizzy
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:48:00 -
[8]
5 large shield extenders ii's are the equivalent roughly of having 3 tech ii target painters slapped on you.
Maybe it's easier to fit those and try attack different ships; first activated, then deactivated so you can see the difference properly for yourself rather than your one sided analysis?
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Nicholas Barker
Duty.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:51:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Wai Ng'Tse
Originally by: Nicholas Barker it doesn't just affect lock time, it effects how easily you can hit them when they're moving.
Yes it does. But it mainly effects tracking
were you agreeing with me? or disagreeing badly? ------
back from 90day forum ban. |
Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:56:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 08/07/2009 14:57:09
And LSE make also missiles more efficient against them as signature radius is used in the damage formula.
So the counterparts of all tanks are balanced.
But the tank capacity are not balanced. An armor tanker has a buffer (his shield) with some resists, and armor repairers who need less capacitor than shield boosters. A shield booster don't have this advantages. Just a poor regen who is definitively not enough, and a totally useless armor tank as you instapop when your shield is down. _______ Local is fine, period.
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Haraukiae Youik
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Posted - 2009.07.08 14:58:00 -
[11]
I agree. The penalties aren't stiff enough or are bugged.
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5pinDizzy
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:00:00 -
[12]
Tell you what, we'll take a harsher penalty for shield extenders in exchange for the fitting capabilities and greater bonuses of the armor plates, how's that?
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Haraukiae Youik I agree. The penalties aren't stiff enough or are bugged.
Sure than an Alt of 6 days has all legitimacy to say that _______ Local is fine, period.
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Faife
Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:10:00 -
[14]
like others said, it's not about lock time, it's about damage taken from weapons --
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sky Marshal ... the counterparts of all tanks are balanced, despite the opinion of the OP.
I concur
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:15:00 -
[16]
Now, try to lock the same two Celestis setups with a (BATTLE)CRUISER instead of with a CARRIER, and you'll notice quite difference (percentually speaking) in lock times. And yeah, the guns hitting so much more often and so much better quality hits (also missile damage), it's not even funny. And plates, slightly slower align time, boo-hoo. Oh, did I also mention plates get double the extra HP per slot at comparable sizes (1600 vs LSE, etc) ? Sure, LSEs also boost shield amount naturally regenerated, but that's yet another story.
So, yeah, they're not IDENTICAL, but they certainly are reasonably well BALANCED, overall.
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Nemiron
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:17:00 -
[17]
My plated and tripple Trimarked rigged Abaddon needs a long time to align and to get into warp (you might want to check the drawbacks of armor mods, too) It will have a hard time escaping a bubble.
You on the other hand will get webbed / scrammed faster, while beeing in warp faster. Seems balanced.
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:24:00 -
[18]
For people having difficulty getting into warp in plated BS:
Jump through gate, appear other side, select destination object (another gate for example), select the 'warp to object' button, then pulse your MWD (that means, turn it on then immediately OFF again).
around 11 seconds later, you are in warp, regardless of any alignment issues.
No ship with an MWD on (Erm, titans perhaps?) should take more than 11 seconds to align and warp if they start off at zero speed.
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Valenthe
Amarr Point of No Return Blade.
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:25:00 -
[19]
Your shield auto-regens, my armor doesn't.
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5pinDizzy
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:33:00 -
[20]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 08/07/2009 15:36:47
What Spurty said, even the default align time for armor tanking battleships is usually around 13 seconds without any plates at all, yet a mwd cycle ends in 10 seconds.
So don't moan about Shield Tankers when the Armor Tanker penalty get's bypassed anyway.
Originally by: Valenthe Your shield auto-regens, my armor doesn't.
The average killmail in eve will have at least 5 involved parties killing the intended victim.
When the dps is high enough, regen doesn't count for squat.
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Great Artista
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:59:00 -
[21]
Different != imbalanced. Plates bring biggest hp bonus, 1600mm vs LSE AND the effect can be further enhanced by implants. Rigs too, of course, but shields also have those.
With shields you trade total hitpoint amount for, ignoring the half-useless sigradius increase, more agility and free a lowslot for damage mod, not to mention they use alot of CPU which is scarce when fitting cruiser sized ships. With armour, you get more tackling gear, more hitpoints and less agility.
Nothing seems imbalanced here. Well, in favour of shields anyhow. ____ Rockets need a boost. CCP status: [_] Told. [x] Not told.
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Ryhss
Caldari The Last Legion
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Posted - 2009.07.08 16:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nicholas Barker it doesn't just affect lock time, it effects how easily you can hit them when they're moving.
making it a lot harder to get under your guns, or simply out run them.
Like fitting armor plates slows you down.
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CAPSLOCKBROKE
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Posted - 2009.07.08 16:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Weight What CAPS CONTROL SET TO AWESOME
I AGREE WHEN I FIRST STARTED THIS GAME MY CAPSLOCK KEY WAS BROKE IT GAVE ME GREAT INSPIRATION FOR A NEW NAME CAPSLOCKBROKE ALSO MY PERIOD COMMA COLON AND SEMICOLON KEYS ARE BROKEN SO I HAVE A HARD TIME WITH SENTENCE STRUCTURE BUT THATS OK ANYWAYS AFTER A FEW WEEKS OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX IT I SAID F IT AND HAVE BEEN EVEING IT UP EVER SENSE WOO!
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rodensteiner
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Posted - 2009.07.08 16:30:00 -
[24]
Edited by: rodensteiner on 08/07/2009 16:33:08 I would say plates and extenders are balanced, but they don't exactly parallel each other.
For instance:
Large FS9 Extender 150MW / 34 tf (fitting) 2,250 HP No weight penalty Has Sig radius penaly
800mm Rolled Tungsten 200MW / 23 tf (fitting) 2,100 HP 1,375,000 kg No sig radius penalty
1600mm Rolled Tungsten 500MW / 28 tf 4,200HP 2,750,000 kg No sig radius penalty
The LSE is quite a bit easier to fit, I would say, as it takes a fair amount less powergrid. It has more HP than 800mm RT, is easier to fit than the 800mm RT, and carries no weight penalty. To get the same amount of HP as 1600mm RT you would have to fit two LSE's, which kind of sucks, but even with two of them you've used far less powergrid.
It's all quite situational. A vagabond, for instance, can fit two LSE's no problem, and it is a FAST ship. Fit a 1600mm RT plate to a cruiser or cruiser-hull, and you're not going anywhere quickly. On the other hand, the Vagabond in question just got a serious hit to it's signature radius.
Shields also get a passive recharge, which is pretty sweet IMO, so that's another item in their favor.
Also, in reference to the armor repper vs. shield booster point:
Large Armor Repairer II 400 Energy (per cycle) 2,300 MW (fitting) 800HP every 15 sec (53.33HP/sec) Extra-Large Shield Booster II 400 Energy (per cycle) 550 MW (fitting) 600HP every 5 sec (120HP/sec)
So yes, Shield boosters do take more cap (as they cycle 3 times as quick) but they take less than 1/4 of the powergrid to fit compared to a LAR, and pump out way more rep per second.
Don't forget that there are shield boost amplifiers, too. Armor reppers don't get those.
So everything's a trade-off.
In the end, I'd say they're balanced. *shrugs*
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5pinDizzy
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.08 17:16:00 -
[25]
lol, bringing up the fitting requirements as an argument.
Try taking a look at the fitting specifications for all the battleships.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.07.08 17:25:00 -
[26]
They're fine. Shield tanks and armor tanks have different advantages and disadvantages. For example, shield tanks have no equivalent to the 1600mm plate.
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Scott Ryder
Amarr Suns Of Korhal
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Posted - 2009.07.08 17:31:00 -
[27]
I got only one thing to say. Passive shield tanking should be nerfed. I dont like that a 10 mil sp drakepilot can outtank a 35 mil sp absolution pilot. Its just wrong.
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rodensteiner
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Posted - 2009.07.08 17:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy lol, bringing up the fitting requirements as an argument.
Try taking a look at the fitting specifications for all the battleships.
OK, did that. Again, I wasn't trying to point in favor of one or the other, rather showing ups/downs to both.
Base stats for Amarr BS: Armageddon: 16,500MW / 485 tf Apocalypse: 20,500MW / 505 tf Abaddon: 21,000MW / 560 tf
Base stats for Caldari BS: Scorpion: 9,000MW / 750 tf Raven: 9,500MW / 700 tf Rokh: 15,000MW / 780 tf
This shows exactly why most module/fitting discussions or imbalance discussions in the game MUST take ships into account. You can't use the fitting requirements of shield extenders vs. armor plates as a good basis for argument because of the ships they go on. (If I came across as trying to use the fitting requirements as grounds for better/worse, then I apologize, that was not my intent)
From looking at those numbers, it would be madness to try to armor tank a Caldari Battleship (except maybe the Rokh) simply because they haven't got the grid for it, not to mention a lower count of low slots.
The same goes for Amarr Battleships. Shield tanking would be a viable option in terms of powergrid, but shield modules are CPU-hungry, and as can be seen, the Amarr ships are lower on CPU. The bigger thing going against shield-tanking an Amarr Battleship is the fact that the Apocalypse and Abaddon have only 4 midslots, and the Armageddon only 3. A good shield tank would preferably have more midslots available, especially on ships that don't carry shield bonuses (bonii?)
But this is all "no duh!" type stuff.
All I'm trying to say is that when taking modules and the ships they're most likely to be fitted into account, the whole shield vs. armor tank thing seems to be pretty balanced, IMO.
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rodensteiner
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Posted - 2009.07.08 17:48:00 -
[29]
Scott Ryder:
Being Amarr myself, I can kind of associate with what you say.
However the full passive shield drake only really has its uses in PVE. A drake in PVP will *usually* have a speed mod, a tackling mod or two, and several BCU's in the lows in order to be any kind of threat, therefore killing off its ability to have an "uber passive tank"
Not saying that a PVP fit HAM-Drake (for instance) doesn't have a strong tank, but it's not incomparable to what you could do with other ships, Dual-rep Myrmidon, et al.
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Regat Kozovv
Caldari Alcothology
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Posted - 2009.07.08 17:53:00 -
[30]
Originally by: rodensteiner
However the full passive shield drake only really has its uses in PVE.
Pretty much this. For that Drake to have a nice shield tank, he's going to have to use all or most of his midslots, leaving no room for a tackle setup. So while the Drake is definitely a tough nut to crack, he forfits the ability to dictate the terms of the engagement.
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