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Gallactica
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
100
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:11:00 -
[181] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:Gal, you have to understand that to a lot of folks, repping people shooting blues is the same as shooting blues. I know your smart enough to understand that and why people would feel that way. Right or wrong it's how many see this. So no matter how many times you say this and how many people Tek calls a ******* ****, it is what it is. Gallactica wrote:At no point were blues engaged. Personally I don't give a damn, less blues = more **** to shoot. I use to love flying with the minnies, but after going -10 they usually just try to shoot me anyways. Was down there the other day helping them out and got engaged by more minnies then I did Amarr. **** happens...move on. EDIT: And if you were not blue with anyone the Amarr were shooting, then why is this even an issue? Are people under the impression that all minnies and gals are blue to one another? Because they are most certainly NOT, and if you have a problem with that talk to CCP, its no one here fault that the game mechanics are the way they are.
True nexx, repping isn't ideal - it was the only choice tho without going full combat fleet.
I dont disagree with what you are saying. |
Del Vikus
Gradient Electus Matari
4
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:11:00 -
[182] - Quote
Gallactica wrote:At no point were blues engaged.
And you see nothing wrong with repping the guys who are shooting your blues?
Wait, why did I just write that -- of course you don't. Because helping the enemies of your allies is a completely neutral activity that nobody should ever get pissed about because it has no repercussions.
Has every SOTF response to this thread just been a trololololol, or do they actually have anything to say? WB's position I can understand (as wussy as it is), but I've still got the Logic-Monkeys working overtime to determine a solution as to why SOTF is surprised at the reaction to their "No blues engaged" defense. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
932
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:15:00 -
[183] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:Have to disagree with this, if that what was intended then minnie and gals would be "purple" via game mechanics, Which they are not.
Allow me to stress: at no point did I mention the Minmatar. Mane 614
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
428
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:15:00 -
[184] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote: EDIT: And if you were not blue with anyone the Amarr were shooting, then why is this even an issue? Are people under the impression that all minnies and gals are blue to one another? Because they most certainly are NOT, and if you have a problem with that talk to CCP, they came up with the game mechanics.
I have always treated caldari as blues and have received the same treatment back.
Yes mistakes are made due to the fact that ccp has never it deemed it important to make it clear who is in your allied militia. But other than mistakes due to ccps bad overview mechanics I never had an issue. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Gallactica
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
100
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:15:00 -
[185] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gallactica wrote:So tell me why half of the minmatar corps / alliances have had us at -10 for a long time just because of our roe?
That isn't allies / friends. "Because Minmatar corporations aren't nice to me, it's OK to ally our organisation with an enemy!" That's a complete non-sequitur. At no point did I even mention the Minmatar corporations because they quite patently have nothing to do with this. Regardless of your out-of-game friendships with them (which I do not object to in the slightest - out-of-game, I have friends in the Amarr and Caldari militias and in various null-sec alliances that I otherwise despise), Wolfsbrigade are an enemy of the Gallente militia and are clearly marked as such. They were originally in the Caldari militia and engaged in active warfare against the forces and territory of the FDU - they're now in Amarr space, and in the Amarr militia, fighting for Amarr space, but that doesn't make them any less of an enemy. Allied militia may not appear as a blue, but off-enemy militia still appears as flashy-red. The Amarr militia opposes the Gallente militia. Wolfsbrigade are a member of the Amarr militia. You are a member of the Gallente militia. You are blue with Wolfsbrigade. Ergo, you are allied with an enemy of the Gallente militia. This is a conflict of interest. The actions of corporations within the Minmatar militia are irrelevant. Spin this any way you want, by defending Kamela from Minmatar occupation you were aiding and abetting an enemy of the militia you're a part of. Whether or not you were firing on blues is a matter of personal opinion, but the fact that your actions constitute a direct and glaring conflict of interest is not.
Not being nice and setting us -10 is 2 different things,
They have us at -10 therefore are they not classing us as enemies even tho we were happy to be blue?
Can't hav it both ways. |
Mister Kwong
State War Academy Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:16:00 -
[186] - Quote
Let's summarise what this thread is really about here;
Keeping your word.
Technically, Tekitha is right; there was no blue on blue shooting. I understand SOTFs view which is that they need WBR as an ally since they do joint ops together. For WBR to lose their home would result in a setback in their continual joint ops be that in lowsec or nullsec.
But I also understand LNA's grievances as well. Because having blue standings means more than just avoiding shooting each other. It also means NOT hurting each other. So when the guardians came to rep WBR, they also ended up hurting the Minmatar and their war efforts on the Amarr. So there was no blue on blue shooting but really, it may as well been because it sure felt like it to the Minnies. If you are a minmatar corp with no standings whatsoever to SOTF, you have no grievance because there is no relationship to begin with. If, however, you're LNA and have standings, there are grievances.
Of course, now the other Gallente corps are infuriated because you also damage their reputation as well and make it look like all of Gallente are traitors and cannot be relied upon. This obviously isn't true but public relations plays a huge role in all of this.
Establishing standings with each other is alot like establishing a relationship especially in the early stages. While you may not be promising the world to each other, you are promising the most basics of a relationship that you should adhere to; respecting each other. What SOTF did was respectful of WBR but disrespectful to the said Minnie alliances and quite frankly, some of the Gallente corps as well. SOTF was damed if they do and damned if they don't. So they had to make a decision and stick with it. And they have to deal with the consequences of it as well. One of which is the perception that leadership cannot be trusted to keep their word.
At the end of the day, SOTF made a concious decision that being allied with WBR is more important than anything or anyone else. Those reading this should take careful not of that regardless of which faction you are in and behave accordingly to them.
Interestingly, I can see why WBR has developed the reputation they have with the Caldari and why guys like Chair, Mutnin, Damar and Snake disliked them. They are now showing their true colors to the Amarr as well. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
932
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:18:00 -
[187] - Quote
Gallactica wrote:Not being nice and setting us -10 is 2 different things,
They have us at -10 therefore are they not classing us as enemies even tho we were happy to be blue?
Can't hav it both ways.
You aren't even listening to what I'm saying. This isn't about the Minmatar. This is about you being blue with a known enemy of the Federation. The actions of the Minmatar are irrelevant. Mane 614
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Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
40
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:20:00 -
[188] - Quote
Ok I see what you did there, point taken
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Princess Nexxala wrote:Have to disagree with this, if that what was intended then minnie and gals would be "purple" via game mechanics, Which they are not. Allow me to stress: at no point did I mention the Minmatar.
Is sexy time? |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
40
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:25:00 -
[189] - Quote
Yes it should of been well known for damn near the last year this would be the case, hence why I am taken a bit back by all the Gallente who are up in arms. We already knew this, why is it only now an issue? It was an issue then and I was upset about it at the time...but I since realize they have a very close relationship and we(other gals) have to deal with that as best we can.
Mister Kwong wrote: At the end of the day, SOTF made a concious decision that being allied with WBR is more important than anything or anyone else. Those reading this should take careful not of that regardless of which faction you are in and behave accordingly to them.
Is sexy time? |
Gallactica
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
100
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:27:00 -
[190] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Gallactica wrote:Not being nice and setting us -10 is 2 different things,
They have us at -10 therefore are they not classing us as enemies even tho we were happy to be blue?
Can't hav it both ways. You aren't even listening to what I'm saying. This isn't about the Minmatar. This is about you being blue with a known enemy of the Federation. The actions of the Minmatar are irrelevant.
You are not listening.
Half the minmatars have us set -10 and such kos?
Why the hell would we want to assist them?
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
86
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:34:00 -
[191] - Quote
Gallactica wrote: Not being nice and setting us -10 is 2 different things,
They have us at -10 therefore are they not classing us as enemies even tho we were happy to be blue?
Can't hav it both ways.
It has nothing to do with the Minmatar militia corporations.
Even if the entire Minmatar militia had me set red and were complete asshats to me, I would not attack Minmatar space/defend Amarr space while in the Gallente Federation, because that is working against the express wishes of Gallente Federation Militia - and by that I mean the in game construct. That is the issue I have.
I would happily engage those Minmatar corps that had me set red, but I'd probably try and do it outside of the Minmatar militia warzone if said Minmatar corps were otherwise helping the Minmatar war effort.
I understand you value your relationship highly with WBR - they're very valuable and loyal allies. I just don't think your actions were justifiable being in the Gallente Federation. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
227
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 18:35:00 -
[192] - Quote
Mister Kwong wrote: Establishing standings with each other is alot like establishing a relationship especially in the early stages. While you may not be promising the world to each other, you are promising the most basics of a relationship that you should adhere to; respecting each other. What SOTF did was respectful of WBR but disrespectful to the said Minnie alliances and quite frankly, some of the Gallente corps as well.
I think everybody in here (not in SoTF) pretty much agrees with your thesis on blue standings. I have one exception here in that doing what they did was not disrespectful to Gallente corps. SoTF's actions are a reflection on them, the corporations and pilots in their alliance, and nothing more. They made a conscious decision going into their engagement and my guess is that they are willing to live with the drama that ensues. |
Mister Kwong
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 18:36:00 -
[193] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:Yes it should of been well known for damn near the last year this would be the case, hence why I am taken a bit back by all the Gallente who are up in arms. We already knew this, why is it only now an issue? It was an issue then and I was upset about it at the time...but I since realize they have a very close relationship and we(other gals) have to deal with that as best we can. Mister Kwong wrote: At the end of the day, SOTF made a concious decision that being allied with WBR is more important than anything or anyone else. Those reading this should take careful not of that regardless of which faction you are in and behave accordingly to them.
Forgetful memory. Not everyone is well versed on their militia politics as well. Etc... |
Tekitha
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
26
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:38:00 -
[194] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
The actions of the Minmatar are irrelevant.
always
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
932
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 18:39:00 -
[195] - Quote
Gallactica wrote:You are not listening.
No! I'm listening to you! That's how I can tell you're not listening to me! Either you're trolling or you haven't read what I wrote properly.
Gallactica wrote:Half the minmatars have us set -10 and such kos?
Why the hell would we want to assist them?
You're not being asked to assist them. You're being asked not to assist someone who is demonstrably an enemy of the faction you've signed up with. Mane 614
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
88
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 18:42:00 -
[196] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:Yes it should of been well known for damn near the last year this would be the case, hence why I am taken a bit back by all the Gallente who are up in arms. We already knew this, why is it only now an issue? It was an issue then and I was upset about it at the time...but I since realize they have a very close relationship and we(other gals) have to deal with that as best we can. Mister Kwong wrote: At the end of the day, SOTF made a concious decision that being allied with WBR is more important than anything or anyone else. Those reading this should take careful not of that regardless of which faction you are in and behave accordingly to them.
I would never have expected SOTF to actively fight a militia sov war that was contrary to the Gallente Federation's mandate (which includes attacking Amarr plexes, we go in there the button runs against the Minmatar and we get rewarded for it). That is what surprises me. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
228
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 18:45:00 -
[197] - Quote
chatgris wrote: I would never have expected SOTF to actively fight a militia sov war that was contrary to the Gallente Federation's mandate (which includes attacking Amarr plexes, we go in there the button runs against the Minmatar and we get rewarded for it). That is what surprises me.
Nexx is right. It shouldn't have been unexpected by any of us. They did the same sort of friendly RR'ing of WBR allies while they were engaged with Gallente FW pilots in Gallente space when both were in theater there as well. My guess is that the Caldari FW corps have similar stories. We all should have seen it coming. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
88
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 18:51:00 -
[198] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:chatgris wrote: I would never have expected SOTF to actively fight a militia sov war that was contrary to the Gallente Federation's mandate (which includes attacking Amarr plexes, we go in there the button runs against the Minmatar and we get rewarded for it). That is what surprises me.
Nexx is right. It shouldn't have been unexpected by any of us. They did the same sort of friendly RR'ing of WBR allies while they were engaged with Gallente FW pilots in Gallente space when both were in theater there as well. My guess is that the Caldari FW corps have similar stories. We all should have seen it coming.
Yes, but they were not actively engaged in an operation against the sovereign space of the Gallente Federation or its allies. I consider this action on a separate level. Obviously, I was wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that I didn't think they would do it. |
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
190
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 18:51:00 -
[199] - Quote
chatgris wrote:
I would never have expected SOTF to actively fight a militia sov war that was contrary to the Gallente Federation's mandate (which includes attacking Amarr plexes, we go in there the button runs against the Minmatar and we get rewarded for it). That is what surprises me.
Gallente Federation's mandate ? Intergalactic summit, that way. -------->
If you wanna talk about prioritising blues, getting involved in blue vs blue fights, etc. I'll be more than happy to discuss, but we couldn't care less about **** rp'ing. |
Pulgy
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
59
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:52:00 -
[200] - Quote
Bros before hoes. Deal it with it. Also if you're under the assumption that Gallente and Minnies shouldn't shoot each other purely because of RP reasons then I'm more than happy to shoot you back :) and please if you're so mad about this let your actions speak for themselves, Castle Grayskull awaits. No range? No problem!Join the Church of the Holy BlasterGäó . A Hybrid religion. |
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
228
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:54:00 -
[201] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Yes, but they were not actively engaged in an operation against the sovereign space of the Gallente Federation or its allies. I consider this action on a separate level. Obviously, I was wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that I didn't think they would do it. Yes, but if you know Lockout and Tekitha, they couldn't care less about occupancy warfare. So it's not a stretch to think they would help WBR in Kamela. (see Lock Out's post above, lol)
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
88
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:57:00 -
[202] - Quote
Lock out wrote:chatgris wrote:
I would never have expected SOTF to actively fight a militia sov war that was contrary to the Gallente Federation's mandate (which includes attacking Amarr plexes, we go in there the button runs against the Minmatar and we get rewarded for it). That is what surprises me.
Gallente Federation's mandate ? Intergalactic summit, that way. --------> If you wanna talk about prioritising blues, getting involved in blue vs blue fights, etc. I'll be more than happy to discuss, but we couldn't care less about **** rp'ing.
This isn't even Intergalactic summit. This is the core mechanics of factional warfare: these plexes you capture, these plexes you can defend. What you did prevents Gallente Militia from docking in that system too. I consider abiding by the mechanics of the faction I join basic e-honour in a video game. (I know that e-honour isn't required in this game, and is often time advertised as a weakness even by CCP, but it doesn't change my feelings about it).
Anyways, I better stop posting and get back to work. |
Tekitha
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
26
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:59:00 -
[203] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Lock out wrote:chatgris wrote:
I would never have expected SOTF to actively fight a militia sov war that was contrary to the Gallente Federation's mandate (which includes attacking Amarr plexes, we go in there the button runs against the Minmatar and we get rewarded for it). That is what surprises me.
Gallente Federation's mandate ? Intergalactic summit, that way. --------> If you wanna talk about prioritising blues, getting involved in blue vs blue fights, etc. I'll be more than happy to discuss, but we couldn't care less about **** rp'ing. This isn't even Intergalactic summit. This is the core mechanics of factional warfare: these plexes you capture, these plexes you can defend. What you did prevents Gallente Militia from docking in that system too. I consider abiding by the mechanics of the faction I join basic e-honour in a video game. (I know that e-honour isn't required in this game, and is often time advertised as a weakness even by CCP, but it doesn't change my feelings about it). Anyways, I better stop posting and get back to work.
I consider helping a long standing ally holding their home system as e-honor in a video game ...
Who's to say your definition is any more relevant than mine?
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
88
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Posted - 2012.05.22 19:02:00 -
[204] - Quote
Tekitha wrote:chatgris wrote:Lock out wrote:chatgris wrote:
I would never have expected SOTF to actively fight a militia sov war that was contrary to the Gallente Federation's mandate (which includes attacking Amarr plexes, we go in there the button runs against the Minmatar and we get rewarded for it). That is what surprises me.
Gallente Federation's mandate ? Intergalactic summit, that way. --------> If you wanna talk about prioritising blues, getting involved in blue vs blue fights, etc. I'll be more than happy to discuss, but we couldn't care less about **** rp'ing. This isn't even Intergalactic summit. This is the core mechanics of factional warfare: these plexes you capture, these plexes you can defend. What you did prevents Gallente Militia from docking in that system too. I consider abiding by the mechanics of the faction I join basic e-honour in a video game. (I know that e-honour isn't required in this game, and is often time advertised as a weakness even by CCP, but it doesn't change my feelings about it). Anyways, I better stop posting and get back to work. I consider helping a long standing ally holding their home system as e-honor in a video game ... Who's to say your definition is any more relevant than mine?
If you felt so strongly about it, you could have done so by leaving the Gallente Militia. Then you would have had no conflict of interestin. That I would have considered completely honourable, even though the end result is worse for the Federation.
I agree in a practical sense, what you did was better for the Federation than leaving since you chose WBR over the Federation, since you still fight the Caldari. I'm just more principled than practical, and that's a weakness of mine. |
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
32
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Posted - 2012.05.22 19:02:00 -
[205] - Quote
Obviously all gallente and minmattar are blues, espescially the ones who RP the hell out of this game...oh wait
"My name is Treyvn. I'm a diplomat with the Electus Matari alliance. We're an alliance supporting the Minmatar Republic. As an NRDS alliance (not red, don't shoot), we try to reduce piracy and other crimes in Republic space, and build relationships through communication and mutual respect.
We have Percussive Diplomacy set red (-5). We have observed the formation of Percussive Pizza Time Diplomacy. Based on your executor corp's Description, I see little reason to hesitate in recommending that PZZA be set red (-5). I will make that recommendation within a few days. However, if you'd like to comment, I welcome your reply."
Nitwits SLAPD - Star Scientist, I science stars |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 19:04:00 -
[206] - Quote
Gallactica wrote: You are not listening.
Half the minmatars have us set -10 and such kos?
Why the hell would we want to assist them?
Oh no, not -10
If we had called in a Minmatar corp during our unsuccessful sneakerooney in Rakapas on Sunday, I'm sure SOTF would have wardecced them. Heck, they wardecced our corp 90 minutes before dt and it was pretty obvious we were rejoining militia.
I doubt the Minmatar have the stones to wardec SOTF.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 19:05:00 -
[207] - Quote
Cat Casidy wrote:Obviously all gallente and minmattar are blues, espescially the ones who RP the hell out of this game...oh wait
"My name is Treyvn. I'm a diplomat with the Electus Matari alliance. We're an alliance supporting the Minmatar Republic. As an NRDS alliance (not red, don't shoot), we try to reduce piracy and other crimes in Republic space, and build relationships through communication and mutual respect.
We have Percussive Diplomacy set red (-5). We have observed the formation of Percussive Pizza Time Diplomacy. Based on your executor corp's Description, I see little reason to hesitate in recommending that PZZA be set red (-5). I will make that recommendation within a few days. However, if you'd like to comment, I welcome your reply."
Nitwits Can we see the reply?
The threat to change red(-5) to red(-5) is one not to be taken lightly. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
190
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 19:06:00 -
[208] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:chatgris wrote:Yes, but they were not actively engaged in an operation against the sovereign space of the Gallente Federation or its allies. I consider this action on a separate level. Obviously, I was wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that I didn't think they would do it. Yes, but if you know Lockout and Tekitha, they couldn't care less about occupancy warfare. So it's not a stretch to think they would help WBR in Kamela. (see Lock Out's post above, lol)
Well, we don't care about occupancy warfare from an rp'ing or arbitrary mechanics point of view. That beeing said, I think a lot of ppl can confirm I FC'd for 10-11 hrs straight to save Rakapas, Nenn, Enaluri, Aivonen (saving the bunker a few times, once in 15 % armor left) . Then Tek took over and saved it once more.
But we focused on saving Raka and Nenn because our friends from SLAPD and QCATS live there, not because some random rp reasons. We did the same for Kamela, tried (and succeded) to save a system where some friends live .
I am not interested in having some CCP arbitrary mechanic telling me who my friends and my enemies should be, I get to chose that and act accordingly, otherwise the whole ideea of sandbox is out the window and it becomes pretty linear. If you take politics and human relationships out of it, it becomes a mediocre spaceships shooter. |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate
19
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Posted - 2012.05.22 19:10:00 -
[209] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Cat Casidy wrote:Obviously all gallente and minmattar are blues, espescially the ones who RP the hell out of this game...oh wait
"My name is Treyvn. I'm a diplomat with the Electus Matari alliance. We're an alliance supporting the Minmatar Republic. As an NRDS alliance (not red, don't shoot), we try to reduce piracy and other crimes in Republic space, and build relationships through communication and mutual respect.
We have Percussive Diplomacy set red (-5). We have observed the formation of Percussive Pizza Time Diplomacy. Based on your executor corp's Description, I see little reason to hesitate in recommending that PZZA be set red (-5). I will make that recommendation within a few days. However, if you'd like to comment, I welcome your reply."
Nitwits Can we see the reply? The threat to change red(-5) to red(-5) is one not to be taken lightly.
"Nuts"? |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
228
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Posted - 2012.05.22 19:11:00 -
[210] - Quote
Lock out wrote:.... stuff ... . I bet Minnies would appreciate that you de-blue them BEFORE engaging in blue-on-blue activities instead of after. I know we would have appreciated it when you guys did the same thing in Gallente space. But that's your call. |
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