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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.15 18:10:00 -
[1]
yeah yeah... a little late I know.
So, shield tanking Naglfar. [insert swearing worthy of Captain Haddock]
Previously flying a Naglfar was considered to be the most skill intensive Dread (goes for most Minmatar ships). Now people are "forced" into training SHIELD skills as well AFTER having trained the capital armor skills.
[more Captain Haddock swearing]
Ok, you "can" armor tank a Naglfar ... but in order to do it successfully you need AWU 5 ... this means 2x arty, 2x cit torp, 1 siege mod and 1 capital armor repper.
If you have AWU 5 you "can" do it. No dual armor repping possible though.
Right, say you are goated along into shield tanking a Naglfar and you were not an accomplished Maelstrom pilot before ... you need to train all the support shield skills + the capital shield skill to even qualify to fly your dread again.
Anyway, end result... GIVE THE NAGLFAR BACK ITS PW so that it at least has the option of fitting either shield or armor. . |
Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.15 18:16:00 -
[2]
Errr were you planning on flying the Naglfar without AWU V?
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k'dai
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Posted - 2009.07.15 18:21:00 -
[3]
AWU 5 is required for siege mod. |
SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies
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Posted - 2009.07.15 18:30:00 -
[4]
Originally by: k'dai AWU 5 is required for siege mod.
Apparently the OP isn't an actual dread pilot because otherwise he wouldave known that.
btw I am not a dread pilot myself, but I do know you need AWU5 for siege mod, and I do have that.
In fact, I'd go as far as saying that AWU5 is a must have for any self-respecting pvper. __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.15 18:33:00 -
[5]
You apparently don't realize how silly-awesome the Naglfar is now. It outdamages the Moros beyond Garde range, and out-does the Revelation to the edge of citadel torp range, and out-tanks both, with more EHP. The Naglfar is undoubtedly THE best dread for 30-150km, and is at worst "as good" as the Rev and Moros at the range extremes.
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies
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Posted - 2009.07.15 18:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ecky X You apparently don't realize how silly-awesome the Naglfar is now. It outdamages the Moros beyond Garde range, and out-does the Revelation to the edge of citadel torp range, and out-tanks both, with more EHP. The Naglfar is undoubtedly THE best dread for 30-150km, and is at worst "as good" as the Rev and Moros at the range extremes.
ship setup or GTFO plz __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.15 18:42:00 -
[7]
I'm at work atm, but take the standard Snigg-fits for the Moros and Rev, and then fit the same on the Nag.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.15 19:33:00 -
[8]
lol.. sorry was reading another thread that didn't list that as a prereq.
Actually its just been so long since I trained these skills that I'd completely forgotten that AWU 5 was prereq for siege mod (shame on me for just taking second hand information as true)
Anyway, the rant still goes on for: - The amount of skills required to properly fly the Naglfar (negative) - 6/6 slot layout, one less tanking slot than moros/phoenix (negative) - shortest targeting range (common minmatar affliction - negative) - it does have good dps but see amount of skills needed to get that (neutral point) - equal armor/shield hps = least nr of base tanking hps (negative) - no cap use for weapons (naglfar = phoenix - positive) - limited damage type selection (naglfar < phoenix - still positive) - split weapon systems (nr of skills + damage delay - negative) - easy target with good dps = primary (here you "could" anticipate being primaried and fit a good buffer ... but that buffer is very standard anyway and is the worst of all the dreads, except possibly for the phoenix - negative) - Highest scan resolution "\o/" (standard minmatar stuff - "positive") - Highest speed "\o/" (standard minmatar stuff - "positive") - Biggest cargohold ... need to carry loads of ammo here (different types in order to utilize that damage type selection bonus - positive) - Second smallest drone bay ... doesn't make that much of a difference really because its big enough (neutral point) - Worst sensor strength (doesn't really matter cause you are immune in siege anyway - neutral point)
...
so exactly how many more skills does a Naglfar pilot need to train? (ignoring the skill they all need to train) Phoenix pilot: Shield, torp, Medium drone Moros: Armor, gunnery, lots of drone Revelation: armor, gunnery, medium drone Naglfar: gunnery, torp, medium drone, armor and/or shield.
The drone category is debatable as being equal for all but the Moros benefits greatly from good drone skills while the other ships extra skillpoints in drones are less effective. They'd be better off maxing the other skills instead. So, in terms of categories (assuming shield = armor and torp = gunnery in number of skillpoints): 1. Naglfar with 4 - 5 categories 2. Moros with 3.5 categories (counting lots of drones = 1.5) 3. Revelation with 3 categories 3. Phoenix with 3 categories
Closer inspection on the skill categories Shield = 5.5m skillpoints Armor = 2.9m skillpoints Gunnery = 8.2m skillpoints Torps = 5.5m skillpoints Med drones = 3.3m skillpoints lots of drones = 5.7m skillpoints
This gives the approx skillpoints needed to fly each dread (EXCLUDING THE SKILLPOINTS IN COMMON WITH ALL DREADS) Phoenix = 14.3m Revelation = 14.4m Moros = 16.8 (14.4 with med drones ... same as Revelation. Moros has more room for improvement than Revelation basically) Naglfar: Armor only = 19.9 Shield only = 22.5 (whoa ... recent change increased the number of skillpoints needed to fully fly a Naglfar) Unlucky sods that train both armor and shield: 25.4m
So, extra 5.6 - 11.1 MILLION more skillpoints needed and for what benefit. NONE, just to get SECOND in dps (after Moros - because of drone bonus).
so yes... I still think this rant is relevant even though I forgot about the AWU prereq :D . |
Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.15 19:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ecky X I'm at work atm, but take the standard Snigg-fits for the Moros and Rev, and then fit the same on the Nag.
yeah, with 1 - 2 less low slots that's gonna happen... Sure, shield tank + loads of gyrostabs + bcs can give the naglfar loads of dps (about half of which are delayed). Still paper thin compared to the other dreads because of equal split armor and shield hps = lowest base hp tanking buffer (and when you are hot dropped that is the only thing that matters anyway) . |
Magnus Castaneus
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2009.07.15 19:42:00 -
[10]
Dude, I have AWU 5... and i am not even thinking about flying a capital ship any time soon... or ever.... This just boils down to a minmatar whine about how it takes a little more sp to fly a minny ship.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.15 19:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Magnus Castaneus Dude, I have AWU 5... and i am not even thinking about flying a capital ship any time soon... or ever.... This just boils down to a minmatar whine about how it takes a little more sp to fly a minny ship.
Actually it doesn't. I do break down exactly how many more skill points you need to fly a Naglfar than the other dreads ... and true, you can train those up before you decide to go for Dreads (and really you should). However that just means that as a minmatar pilot you CAN'T opt to go for dreads as soon as the other races... which in turn makes it a rant about how many more skill points are needed to fly minmatar ships.
HOWEVER ... I also state problems on the effectiveness of the Naglfar. Despite all these extra skillpoints it is not the top of the DPS list and it has by far the worst tank (buffer) of all the dreads. This means a naglfar is a prime candidate for being called primary (good dps + low hps). . |
Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.15 19:59:00 -
[12]
Snigg Moros:
3x Rails, Siege mod 2x cap recharger, 2x sensor booster, tracking computer cap rep, DCU, 2x eanm, 3x magstab trimark, 2x Locus II
Snigg Rev:
3x Beam, Siege mod cap recharger, 2x sensor booster, tracking computer cap rep, 2x EANM, DCU, 3x heatsink, cap relay trimark, 2x Locus II
Equivelant Naglmao:
2x Arty, 2x Citadel torp, Siege mod Capital shield booster, 2x invul, EM hard, 2x sensor booster 3x Gyro, 2x tracking enhancer, DCU extender, 2x Locus II
Plug those into EFT.
Also, with the change to skills required for cap shield boosters, more skills are used that you should already have. Engineering V? You actually counted that?
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AtheistOfDoom
Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.07.15 20:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: AtheistOfDoom on 15/07/2009 20:35:15
Originally by: Ecky X Snigg Moros:
3x Rails, Siege mod 2x cap recharger, 2x sensor booster, tracking computer cap rep, DCU, 2x eanm, 3x magstab trimark, 2x Locus II
Snigg Rev:
3x Beam, Siege mod cap recharger, 2x sensor booster, tracking computer cap rep, 2x EANM, DCU, 3x heatsink, cap relay trimark, 2x Locus II
Equivelant Naglmao:
2x Arty, 2x Citadel torp, Siege mod Capital shield booster, 2x invul, EM hard, 2x sensor booster 3x Gyro, 2x tracking enhancer, DCU extender, 2x Locus II
Plug those into EFT.
Also, with the change to skills required for cap shield boosters, more skills are used that you should already have. Engineering V? You actually counted that?
Dreads with t2 optimal rigs and tracking enhancers? LOL. Pew Pew Lazorz!!! |
Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.15 20:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ecky X Also, with the change to skills required for cap shield boosters, more skills are used that you should already have. Engineering V? You actually counted that?
I assume all dread pilots have engineering 5 ... duh!
about the setups... At all lvl5 (this means a couple of more mill skill point difference to train the Naglfar btw) the Naglfar is leading the DPS by about 170 - 180dps (800 if drones are not included ... this adds considerable torp delay though and at over 160km the torps aren't even reaching the target taking the Naglfar 150dps below the moros)
In the mean time the Revelation is only trailing the Naglfar by 50dps...
Considering the tank of those setups (i changed it to all extenders / trimarks ... which comes to the same results as you have with your rigs basically)
In that the Naglfar does get the most EHP ... marginally smaller than slightly bigger buffer setups of the other ships...
These setups are for 250km range ... hmm ... I'll just shut up now and agree with you Ecky :D
Given these setups and the skill point change from armor to shield you still need 11 million more skillpoints to get 80 more dps and 50k more effective hitpoints ... \o/ for you.
Excluding the skillpoint difference then, its just a fitting debate as:
Quote: Dreads with t2 optimal rigs and tracking enhancers? LOL.
... states.
Sure, they all have t2 optimal rigs and that stuff. If you remove the optimal rigs and replace them with extenders or trimarks you end up with the same results. The setup up there is geared towards shooting at 250km range.
End result of rant ... 11m more skillpoints to fly a Naglfar for those that have already trained it. 8.2m more for those that are starting out now. . |
Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.07.15 21:48:00 -
[15]
As a side note, I'm very glad I trained torps V when I sit in a bomber. 1-volley'd a cerb, made me smile.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.07.15 22:35:00 -
[16]
Oh its certainly going to take FOREVER to get those capital shield tanking skills, you know, having to train that long worthless skill Tactical Shield Manup...oh wait... *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Khornne
Caldari Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.07.15 22:44:00 -
[17]
Stop posting. I'm pretty serious.
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Zeerover
DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations
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Posted - 2009.07.15 23:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ravenal
At all lvl5 (this means a couple of more mill skill point difference to train the Naglfar btw) the Naglfar is leading the DPS by about 170 - 180dps (800 if drones are not included ... this adds considerable torp delay though and at over 160km the torps aren't even reaching the target taking the Naglfar 150dps below the moros)
So the Nag gets the highest DPS, and still you're not satisfied because half of it's weapons afflicted by the missile flight time...How about comparing it to the Phoenix which is 100% affected by this?
You had your Nag buff, it's not the worst dread anymore, now stop the whining.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.15 23:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zeerover
You had your Nag buff, it's not the worst dread anymore, now stop the whining.
you sir should read more:
Originally by: Ravenal I'll just shut up now and agree with you Ecky :D
Originally by: Ravenal
End result of rant ... 11m more skillpoints to fly a Naglfar for those that have already trained it. 8.2m more for those that are starting out now.
... sure, it's not the worst dread anymore. At the cost of several million skillpoints. . |
Foulque
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.07.16 00:08:00 -
[20]
Nag got boosted with the recent changes, if you can't work out how you might want to reconsider getting in one. ________
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.16 02:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Foulque Nag got boosted with the recent changes, if you can't work out how you might want to reconsider getting in one.
"if you can't work out how you might want to reconsider getting in one" makes no sense...
"if you can't work out how, you might want to reconsider getting in one" makes sense...
My rant was mostly about the number of skillpoints a Naglfar pilot needs to fly a Naglfar ... and now how I need to add the shield skills to my dread skill point total.
Sorry, I'm just extremely uncomfortable when trying to shield tank ... so I try to stay away from ships that do just that. This "force" change to shield tanking Naglfar + the extra skills I need to train to fly it make me want to rant...
So here it is: rant rant rant... . |
EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.07.16 04:16:00 -
[22]
Apparently nobody in this thread realizes Matari are primarily shield tankers and this applies to all capitals as well.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.16 04:30:00 -
[23]
Originally by: EFT Warrior Apparently nobody in this thread realizes Matari are primarily shield tankers and this applies to all capitals as well.
Skipping the "debatable" and "not really tanking ships at all" ones
Assault ships Jag = pve: shield, pvp: armor Wolf = armor
Battlecruisers cyclone = shield Hurricane = armor (can do ok passive shield)
Battleships Phoon = armor Tempest = armor Maelstrom = shield
Black ops Panther = armor
Carriers Nidhoggur = armor Hel = shield
Command ships Sleipnir = shield Claymore = shield
Cruisers Rupture = armor Stabber = armor
Dread Naglfar = Shield (grumble grumble...)
Frigates Rifter = armor
HAC Muninn = armor Vaga = shield
HIC Broadsword = shield
Marauders Vargur = shield
armor = 11 shield = 10
Minmatar are NOT primarily shield tankers...
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Stupid' Jerk
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Posted - 2009.07.16 04:38:00 -
[24]
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Dreads with t2 optimal rigs and tracking enhancers? LOL.
apparently you've never seen how PL uses dreads before, sniper dreads rule
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.16 04:45:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Stupid' Jerk
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Dreads with t2 optimal rigs and tracking enhancers? LOL.
apparently you've never seen how PL uses dreads before, sniper dreads rule
you can get by with only using 2 sensor boosters and the longest range ammo but your dps will be considerably lower than using the t2 locus rigs + tracking enhancers. The end result is about the same ... if the opposing dread fleet does not have 200+ targeting range (which it won't if they only have 1 sensor booster) they can't do anything but get shot to pieces. . |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.07.16 05:03:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/07/2009 05:04:54
Originally by: Ravenal
Assault ships Jag = pve: shield, pvp: armor shield (armor jag = epic fail) Wolf = armor
Battlecruisers cyclone = shield Hurricane = armor / shield (usually superior as shield tanker)
Battleships Phoon = armor Tempest = armor (can do shield as well) Maelstrom = shield
Black ops Panther = armor
Carriers Nidhoggur = armor (can do shield) Hel = shield
Command ships Sleipnir = shield Claymore = shield
Cruisers Rupture = armor Stabber = armor shield (armor stabber = epic fail tbh)
Dread Naglfar = Shield (grumble grumble...)
Frigates Rifter = usually armor or no tank, shield tank is possible though
HAC Muninn = armor / shield (both can work equally well) Vaga = shield
HIC Broadsword = shield
Marauders Vargur = shield
Minmatar are NOT primarily shield tankers...
Fixed
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.07.16 05:10:00 -
[27]
Edited by: EFT Warrior on 16/07/2009 05:12:08
Originally by: Ravenal Minmatar are NOT primarily shield tankers...
Many of the ships listed there are speed tankers/sniper ships, not primarily armor tanking. The rupture, muninn, stabber and arguably the hurricane and tempest are snipers or speed tankers who do well outtracking or outranging opponents thanks to minmatars superior speed and signature radius. A few mimatar ships (typhoon) armor tank primarily or are versatile enough to shield or armor tank if they can't speed tank (tempest, nidhoggur).
Just because a ship has more low slots doesn't necessarily make it an armor tanker; would you really even try to tank a Panther when it's just a glorified stealth bomber? What about a sniper tempest or a stabber? Many fits for a stabber are speed tanked with a LSE. Or rather, why armor tank when you can get just as good a tank shield tanking as Minmatar but have room for the damage mods? If you aren't tackling, your midslots can be freed up for an comparable buffer or active tank compared to an armor tank, which is exactly what the Naglfar does.
Of course Mimmatar don't go to the extremes for tanking like Amarr/Caldari much to the disappointment of a lot of people and the speed of Minmatar is countered by the worst damage at all ranges, but when it comes to capitals and especially dreadnoughts shield tanks win out.
Also
Quote: But even your original list would be biased towards shield if you include Rapier, Huginn, Scimitar, Sabre which are all shield tankers.
Yes you left out those ships. Don't forget the Mastadon, Prowler, Ragnarok and Hel.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.07.16 15:41:00 -
[28]
bloody login crap ...
anyway, to sum it up (again). If you can tell my why the Naglfar needs 5 (torp training) - 11 (torps + additional tanking skill) million more skillpoints to be as effective as the other dreads I'll be happy and shut up.
the benefit of this extra training? 50dps at dread lvl5 ... otherwise not at the top of the dps list. . |
To mare
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Posted - 2009.07.16 16:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ravenal
Skipping the "debatable" and "not really tanking ships at all" ones
Assault ships Jag = pve: shield, pvp: armor Wolf = armor
Battlecruisers cyclone = shield Hurricane = armor (can do ok passive shield)
Battleships Phoon = armor Tempest = armor Maelstrom = shield
Black ops Panther = armor
Carriers Nidhoggur = armor Hel = shield
Command ships Sleipnir = shield Claymore = shield
Cruisers Rupture = armor Stabber = armor
Dread Naglfar = Shield (grumble grumble...)
Frigates Rifter = armor
HAC Muninn = armor Vaga = shield
HIC Broadsword = shield
Marauders Vargur = shield
armor = 11 shield = 10
Minmatar are NOT primarily shield tankers...
minmatar at the start where meant to shield tank, just watch tempest and phoon those have more shield HP than armor, the lows was meant to fit nanofiber and gyros before someone decided to nerf the minmatar strengths. some of the ships that are clearly armor tank (hurricane, wolf) have been added later.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.07.16 16:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ravenal bloody login crap ...
anyway, to sum it up (again). If you can tell my why the Naglfar needs 5 (torp training) - 11 (torps + additional tanking skill) million more skillpoints to be as effective as the other dreads I'll be happy and shut up.
the benefit of this extra training? 50dps at dread lvl5 ... otherwise not at the top of the dps list.
because of falcon!
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