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Hottie MissHotHot
Ware Hounds
0
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Posted - 2012.05.22 21:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dear CCP,
WTF?!
First off before discussing the main topic of this letter (Data Cores), let me congratulate you on the excellent job you have been doing as a whole on the recent EVE expansions, and indeed the game itself. You guys (male an female GÇô guys doesnGÇÖt have to be males) have been doing a great job of getting back to the basics and returning EVE Online to the eye-candy/pew-pew-fest that it so rightfully should be. While there are issues with the window, good Job over-all and thank you (I have faith that the window issues will be fixed).
Now, on to Data Cores.
My first question to you is: Is EVE Online intended to be about GÇ£the daily grind?GÇ¥
It has been stated that: GÇ£While we do acknowledge that initial the initial period to train up for high-level research agents take times, effort and money, we are not particularly fond of the passive datacore income in general. Indeed, once the initial requirements are met, this is not so much of an active profession and more of a passive collection of items, which we want to look at.GÇ¥
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Hottie MissHotHot
Ware Hounds
0
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Posted - 2012.05.22 21:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Which leads up to my second question: Is passive income a problem?
EVE mirrors many aspects of real life (having to have an income to pay for hobbies/passions, insurance, market fluctuations, conflict over territory and/or opportunities, etc.). However Data Cores have been one of the few possible passive income options, and only with high Skill Point requirements and a significant level of grinding (with meager mission payouts). Once even the best R&D agents are available to you, you still are unable to GÇ£get richGÇ¥ off of it.
It could be said that you never get something for nothing, and this is true, however the time, Isk, Skill Points, and effort are hardly GÇ£nothing.GÇ¥
Is there a real world example that corresponds to Data Cores? I believe so - rental properties share many parallels with Data Cores. There is a significant upfront investment in exchange for long term gains GÇô a trickle of cash from month to month. The payback is slow, and the investment large causing few to put the effort forth to obtain these 2 similar income streams.
In EVE if you have 3 characters on 1 account that are all optimally set up for Data Core generation you will not even make enough Isk to Plex, while the amount of time required to get to this point = around 90-120 days per character depending on implants for a total investment of 9-12 months (not including the PVE skills required to be able to grind for the R&D agents). This arrangement would reduce the monthly grind required to maintain an EVE Online account significantly, but at a price tag of $98.55 to $209.88 in real world U.S. Dollars (depending on implants and payment method with $98.55 optimized in both and $209.88 minimized in both). To put it in terms of Plex GÇô 5.66 Plex on the low side to 12 plex on the high side GÇô that means a payback period of 34 GÇô 68 months (3-6 years) are required just to get the amount that was spent on the account while training the skills required to get Data Cores (not including the cost of the skillbooks, ships and ammunition).
I personally have 8 Eve Online accounts with 12 characters GÇô 10 of which have maxed out Data Core gathering skills. Can I make Billions of Isk in a year under the old system? Yes, but each character makes less than 100Mil Isk a month and my total investment is over $1225 (only including R&D skills and bare minimum PVE skills). This does not include all of the Isk for ships, skill books, and ammunition, not to mention time and angst that went into procuring this small stream of residual Isk income.
To have all of the time and money that went into getting Data Cores basically reduced to nothing is a real slap in the face. I'm sure anyone can imagine how they would feel if they paid $1225 for something and put in long boring hours and had it basically confiscated. Bottom line GÇô lousy.
Now I am not one to gripe and whine about a problem, at least not without proposing a reasonable solution. I have a few proposed solutions to this problem:
1. Reinstate the old system. (The people who get data cores are not getting rich off of it, the market prices are reasonable, and dues have already been paid)
2. Reimburse players in cash for the losses that the new system causes. (lets face it GÇô not going to happen)
3. Reimburse players in Plex for the losses that the new system causes. (reasonable and has less cost to CCP).
4. Give players the option of getting back the Skill Points that were spent into these skills, and applying the standings gained with R&D corps to a different corp (lets face it R&D corps suck). (While not as nice as option 1 it is reasonable and gives players a chance at compensation without any cost to CCP (other than implementation) and is much like what was done with the removal of the learning skills a while back)
I do dearly love EVE Online and hope to play for years to come. However remembering what was said in the not to distant past (something along the lines of we ignore their words and look rather to their actions) I am canceling all of my accounts (8 accounts) and I am calling on my fellow capsuliers to also stand up and be counted.
Is GÇ£the grindGÇ¥ what you (CCP) want EVE to be about? If it is, I think I can even live with that (possably... those are some sexy ships... Mmmmm), but I am not interested in dealing with a company that abuses it's costumers, and negating that much real world money, time, and effort without some form of compensation is abuse. I realize that you (CCP) view the Data Core system change as a process, and you might have things already set up to take care of this situation - I like to think so and hope that that is the case. However action is demanded as precedent has already been set, and if I am wrong and you (CCP) do not have a plan in place or intend to compensate players for their loss, then I will be forced to take the $1370 (minimum) that I spend on this game each year and sadly go elsewhere.
Again you guys have been doing a great job with the new expansions GÇô EVE is shinier than ever before and 3 times as sexy. I am exited to see what great new innovations you come up with next!
Respectfully, Hottie MissHotHot
P.S. Screen-shots of canceled subscriptions will be attached to this when sent to CCP, but not in distribution on the forums. |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2012.05.22 21:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Datacores are not passive income...
RPing generates DATACORES and NOTHING more... no ISK involved.
Therefore, the idea that it's a passive income ASSUMES that the person generating the RP to buy the datacore is not using said datacore to manufacture.
A serious assumption that is incorrect. |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
705
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Posted - 2012.05.22 21:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
What are you talking about? The rps still come in passively. They are charging us 10,000k to take out a datacore so we'll just increase the cost of them in the market by 10,000. Or whatever the price was.
Then FW will add a competitive active version of getting datacores. Thus there is now the old passive system, and a new active system. Which is dynamic based on who is winning. Which is really exciting actually. But I'll let you figure out how for yourself, I'm going to make a ton of money! Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 salesXbox 360: 2.2 millionPlayStation 3: 1.5 millionPC: 500,000 |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2012.05.22 21:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:What are you talking about? The rps still come in passively. They are charging us 10,000k to take out a datacore so we'll just increase the cost of them in the market by 10,000. Or whatever the price was.
Then FW will add a competitive active version of getting datacores. Thus there is now the old passive system, and a new active system. Which is dynamic based on who is winning. Which is really exciting actually. But I'll let you figure out how for yourself, I'm going to make a ton of money!
I see you have your skills spread appropriately to take advantage of FW to generate datacores (RVB) - Congrats, you win this expansion.
However, some have their skills dedicated to industry and RPing to get and use datacores - Bummer, we lose in this expansion.
I'll let you think on that. |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
384
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Posted - 2012.05.22 21:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Interesting read, but I think it is too soon to start screaming about it all. Yes, the output is nerfed. Yes, the availability of datacores is from more than one source now. However, the overall effects of the changes are not clear yet. If enough people rage quit will supply drop enough to keep prices up? Will people be investing is FW LP for cores or will they be investing in other 'shiny' stuff?
While I do not have anywhere near your level of investment with DC farming, I did just finish the grind to do it right before they announced the nerf. It sucks, but I intend on riding the market and see what happens with it.
Microsoft makes sure that you can do a basic function three ways. CCP makes sure that you can only do it one way, even if it means getting rid of the other ways all together. The upside of this is that, if they can simplify the UI enough, they can port it to the PS3 eventually. |
Lustralis
Tiny Holdings
6
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Posted - 2012.05.22 22:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
So let me try to understand this: you have setup accounts for the passive income of datacores in order to buy plex for said accounts? Forgive me if I'm not too sympathetic. I pay for my accounts (like a big idjeet) and buy datacores on the market for invention. If the price falls, that's great. Who knows, I might make enough profit from invention to be able to afford to buy plex! |
MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
384
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Posted - 2012.05.22 22:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lustralis wrote:So let me try to understand this: you have setup accounts for the passive income of datacores in order to buy plex for said accounts? Forgive me if I'm not too sympathetic. I pay for my accounts (like a big idjeet) and buy datacores on the market for invention. If the price falls, that's great. Who knows, I might make enough profit from invention to be able to afford to buy plex!
The income is not enough to supply a PLEX at the current levels. I believe it is only 1 billion isk a YEAR. Microsoft makes sure that you can do a basic function three ways. CCP makes sure that you can only do it one way, even if it means getting rid of the other ways all together. The upside of this is that, if they can simplify the UI enough, they can port it to the PS3 eventually. |
Tinnin Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
290
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Posted - 2012.05.22 22:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you want a free income source just trot on out and capture all of the tech moons. According to many of the highly intelligent posters of GD it's really easy to do. Heh. |
Rollaz
AirHogs Zulu People
3
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Posted - 2012.05.22 22:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yes, I too have several chars that I made just for this.. and have no idea what to do with them now.
I was making about 100mil a month from d/c's... with this change alone and NOT including the competition from FW LP's, the income is already 1/2 as the made the RP's necessary go from 50/100 which is now 1/2 the income...
If FW LP's don't compete at all (not likely) then my income drops to 50mil a month... but I suspect it will drop to 15-25mil a month per char, effectively killing the chars purpose.
I agree we need something to "unwind" this deal... and being able to move standings and R&D sp's is a minimum option. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
867
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 22:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:If you want a free income source just trot on out and capture all of the tech moons. According to many of the highly intelligent posters of GD it's really easy to do. Start with the ones in VFK !
(I don't know if VFK actually has tech moons) Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
708
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Posted - 2012.05.22 22:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
AFK Hauler wrote:MotherMoon wrote:What are you talking about? The rps still come in passively. They are charging us 10,000k to take out a datacore so we'll just increase the cost of them in the market by 10,000. Or whatever the price was.
Then FW will add a competitive active version of getting datacores. Thus there is now the old passive system, and a new active system. Which is dynamic based on who is winning. Which is really exciting actually. But I'll let you figure out how for yourself, I'm going to make a ton of money! I see you have your skills spread appropriately to take advantage of FW to generate datacores (RVB) - Congrats, you win this expansion. However, some have their skills dedicated to industry and RPing to get and use datacores - Bummer, we lose in this expansion. I'll let you think on that.
Sorry you're way off. FW systems will have bonuses for ALL players in the game. Like a 50% reduction in market taxes. And in the same systems where FW pilots will be grinding up datacores.
But now it gets more interesting. The winning side also gets a bonus to LP gain, and a discount on datacores. At max a winning side can get a 75% discount on datacore while also gaining 20% more LP. The prices will be cheap will all that produce flooding the market in the new low TAX FW trading hubs.
Once a side starts to lose, the datacore prices will go up, until they cost 400% more than normal. And they will lose the bonus LP on kills and such. This will increase the prices dramatically, resulting in a market that can be manipulated like no market has ever been in eve. And I intend to not miss out. In fact it might even become a brand new mini-profession in the eve database. Datacore war manipulator trader. It's going to be like playing the stocks!
and playing the stocks.. is... fun... >.> <.< Don't judge me!
I'll let you think that you small minded player you. Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 salesXbox 360: 2.2 millionPlayStation 3: 1.5 millionPC: 500,000 |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2012.05.22 22:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Tinnin Sylph wrote:If you want a free income source just trot on out and capture all of the tech moons. According to many of the highly intelligent posters of GD it's really easy to do. Start with the ones in VFK ! (I don't know if VFK actually has tech moons)
HAHA
Welp who cares there are always lazy haulers to kill and get some stufz for lulz
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Jonah Gravenstein
330
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 22:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
VFK is a myth, and Goonswarm are the imaginary monster in the wardrobe War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Hottie MissHotHot
Ware Hounds
4
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Posted - 2012.05.22 22:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Lustralis wrote:So let me try to understand this: you have setup accounts for the passive income of datacores in order to buy plex for said accounts? Forgive me if I'm not too sympathetic. I pay for my accounts (like a big idjeet) and buy datacores on the market for invention. If the price falls, that's great. Who knows, I might make enough profit from invention to be able to afford to buy plex!
For many who RP for Data Cores the intent is to reduce the amount of grinding each month that you have to do on that account to Plex |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1433
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 22:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tinnin Sylph wrote:If you want a free income source just trot on out and capture all of the tech moons. According to many of the highly intelligent posters of GD it's really easy to do.
I'll just wait until Technetium is available through the FW LP store too.
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1572
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 22:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hottie MissHotHot wrote:Lustralis wrote:So let me try to understand this: you have setup accounts for the passive income of datacores in order to buy plex for said accounts? Forgive me if I'm not too sympathetic. I pay for my accounts (like a big idjeet) and buy datacores on the market for invention. If the price falls, that's great. Who knows, I might make enough profit from invention to be able to afford to buy plex! For many who RP for Data Cores the intent is to reduce the amount of grinding each month that you have to do on that account to Plex
Takes longer to collect the cores than the grinding would. Unless you're stupendously terrible at EvE, Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 22:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pro-tip: Suggest CCP get rid of the passive collection of SP in the current system. As CCP doesn't want passive anymore, this is the next logical step since you passively collect SP until you can collect the payout later and use that module/ship/industry when it clicks over to level 5.
Think about it. Its passively being collected, ghost training was nerfed just as much as ghost R&D so this just has to happen.
/thread |
Hottie MissHotHot
Ware Hounds
4
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Posted - 2012.05.22 23:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Hottie MissHotHot wrote:Lustralis wrote:So let me try to understand this: you have setup accounts for the passive income of datacores in order to buy plex for said accounts? Forgive me if I'm not too sympathetic. I pay for my accounts (like a big idjeet) and buy datacores on the market for invention. If the price falls, that's great. Who knows, I might make enough profit from invention to be able to afford to buy plex! For many who RP for Data Cores the intent is to reduce the amount of grinding each month that you have to do on that account to Plex Takes longer to collect the cores than the grinding would. Unless you're stupendously terrible at EvE,
You are correct if done more fequently than say every six months it is easy to find other ways to make Isk much easyer and in less time. Personally i collect Data Cores once a year |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2012.05.22 23:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:AFK Hauler wrote:MotherMoon wrote:What are you talking about? The rps still come in passively. They are charging us 10,000k to take out a datacore so we'll just increase the cost of them in the market by 10,000. Or whatever the price was.
Then FW will add a competitive active version of getting datacores. Thus there is now the old passive system, and a new active system. Which is dynamic based on who is winning. Which is really exciting actually. But I'll let you figure out how for yourself, I'm going to make a ton of money! I see you have your skills spread appropriately to take advantage of FW to generate datacores (RVB) - Congrats, you win this expansion. However, some have their skills dedicated to industry and RPing to get and use datacores - Bummer, we lose in this expansion. I'll let you think on that. Sorry you're way off. FW systems will have bonuses for ALL players in the game. Like a 50% reduction in market taxes. And in the same systems where FW pilots will be grinding up datacores. But now it gets more interesting. The winning side also gets a bonus to LP gain, and a discount on datacores. At max a winning side can get a 75% discount on datacore while also gaining 20% more LP. The prices will be cheap will all that produce flooding the market in the new low TAX FW trading hubs. Once a side starts to lose, the datacore prices will go up, until they cost 400% more than normal. And they will lose the bonus LP on kills and such. This will increase the prices dramatically, resulting in a market that can be manipulated like no market has ever been in eve. And I intend to not miss out. In fact it might even become a brand new mini-profession in the eve database. Datacore war manipulator trader. It's going to be like playing the stocks! and playing the stocks.. is... fun... >.> <.< Don't judge me! I'll let you think that you small minded player you.
Apparently you did not think before you posted.
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Wezn Arareb
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.05.22 23:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Can I has your stuff? |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
710
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 23:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
is basic math really that hard for you to comprehend?
The new FW mechanics give bonuses to the whole system. they just introduced a huge tax increase in the market while also introducing a bonus for FW systems only, that gives them 50% lower taxes.
I'm sorry if your only mode of thinking is, target, scan, fire weapons, show of killmails. Why dust 514 is on Console and not PCBattle field 3 salesXbox 360: 2.2 millionPlayStation 3: 1.5 millionPC: 500,000 |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.05.22 23:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:is basic math really that hard for you to comprehend?
The new FW mechanics give bonuses to the whole system. they just introduced a huge tax increase in the market while also introducing a bonus for FW systems only, that gives them 50% lower taxes.
I'm sorry if your only mode of thinking is, target, scan, fire weapons, show of killmails.
Yeah I get it now, I could buy a T2 frig and probably fit it before this change, now I can buy the fit but not the frig!
You're right, awesome change indeed, I'll spend 30more minutes killing rats in sanctums instead of wasting time with my alt hauling that crap, nice dumbing down to "shoot red crosses"
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Hottie MissHotHot
Ware Hounds
4
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Posted - 2012.05.22 23:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
AFK Hauler is right. Any merchant worth her salt will be carting Data Cores all over EVE to maximise profit - you might be able so set high prices somewhere, but you sales will be few and fare between - especially since most serious production specialists haul from main hubs or have their imputs delivered. |
Hottie MissHotHot
Ware Hounds
5
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Posted - 2012.05.22 23:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Wezn Arareb wrote:Can I has your stuff?
I like to think that CCP will actually make an effort to solve the situation in some form or another, but if not, no - I will give it to the DJ's of eve radeo. |
Sup B1tches
Quovis CORE Alliance
46
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Posted - 2012.05.22 23:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
I was seriously considering setting up some alts to get data cores as well, but not 10 or so :)
I wanted about 3-4, and get them all skilled up in all skills neccesary to get RPs for any data core. Once that is done, i'd just move them to get datacores for particular ships/modules that are definitely 'FoTM', like cores needed to make Wolf BPs, and forsake ones needed for making useless ones.
I like to make things from start to finish, i don't think i would sell the cores off |
Hottie MissHotHot
Ware Hounds
6
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Posted - 2012.05.22 23:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sup B1tches wrote:I was seriously considering setting up some alts to get data cores as well, but not 10 or so :)
I wanted about 3-4, and get them all skilled up in all skills neccesary to get RPs for any data core. Once that is done, i'd just move them to get datacores for particular ships/modules that are definitely 'FoTM', like cores needed to make Wolf BPs, and forsake ones needed for making useless ones.
I like to make things from start to finish, i don't think i would sell the cores off
LOL yeah... I'm a bit of a munchkin and play with "the long view." I like to have characters all over the cosmos - different corps, different locations so if i get bored out in 0.0, I can hit lowsec, highsec, Worm Hole, the markets, mining, pew-pew, reactions, missions, ratting, etc.
Additionally all of my toons were trained on different accounts and then transfered to the 8 I now have (cant bear to stop a que). |
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