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Impact
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Posted - 2009.07.22 15:53:00 -
[1]
Hi There
I was sitting in a chat channel and I been made aware of a new kind of, what I consider to be mechanic bug/exploit. Thankfully it never happened to me.
Apparently people are asking for help in missions, and asking if you can armor, or shield rep them, and as soon as you start they target you and shoot you. This of course brings concord in, and they attack not only the attacking ship, but you for repping them.
My issues are as fallows. This is not the intended protocol for concords safety programming. Though Concord are meant to kill a repping ship when a suicide gank is happening. They were not intended to be a grieverÆs tool in order to compile kill mails. There alone I believe a warning should be placed out about this mechanical bug, and openly let people know there will be reprimands for exploiting this bug, as there are in any exploit in the game.
Just like back in 2003 and start of 2004 when people figured they could sensor dampen the gate guns CCP were handing out small bans for doing this issue until you fixed it.
My second issue with it is that it is entrapment. Yes I know there are grievers in this game and they are clowns who get kicks off hammering defenseless and unknowing people. But there are the few nice helpful people who take the time to go into missions to help those who have problems completing the mission. And this is a form of entrapment. Which is reason enough to label a warning? The exploiters of the bug which they are doing. Are racking up marauder and other kills because there are no repercussions to the action they are taken in this manner.
And...... ThatÆs all I have to say about it at this time. LOL go get a drink and rest your eyes after all that reading ^_^
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Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:16:00 -
[2]
CCP has never said its a exploit so i guess it isnt
and IMO if your stupid enough to trust a stranger enough to RR them then you get concorded its your own falt and should just live with it
let the tears flow Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist |
Lucjan
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:18:00 -
[3]
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
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Cebraio
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:32:00 -
[4]
I also think it's an exploit/bug if the attacker can get concord to jump both targets when >>he shoots the ship that is actually helping him<<.
The other case where the attacker shoots someone unrelated, so that concord kills him and his faithful assistant, is fine with me.
Turning this into F&I It would be even better if C shoots the attacker first and only engages the repairing guy, if he lets the repper run after the attack was made. So if you stop the reppers after he shot and you don't start another cycle, you should be found innocent. That way, if you're fast enough, you can actually smash some griefers because they get shot and you survive.
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ViRUS Pottage
Caldari THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:52:00 -
[5]
Don't trust others. Pretty simple if you think about it, right? _________
Originally by: CCP Taera
May I have your stuff?
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Gabrialle
Amarr The Three Swords of Light Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:56:00 -
[6]
Welcome to eve!
Rule 1:- paranoia saves lives Rule 2:- Dont fly what you cant afford to lose Rule 3:- We really mean it about the paranoia!
GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. |
Cebraio
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:10:00 -
[7]
OP and I seem to be the only people here who have some pity on the faithful.
Really, do you always have to get pwned in EVE for being friendly to someone? I think it ruins a lot and makes it even more a MSORPG.
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Re'taka
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:37:00 -
[8]
I once petitioned this very thing, and asked if it was indeed an exploit, the first reply i got was yes, it is, the 2nd reply i got was im sorry, i was wrong its not at this time.
which was good for me because I just killed 2 people like this lol, stupid players willing to rep anything that has a little armor or shield dmg.
No1 Rule. DO NOT REP PEOPLE YOU DO NOT KNOW.
I wouldn't say no to a warning when trying to rep someone, with a little tick box to turn it off, but, that would ruin all my fun and easy killmail whoring.
In addition, it would remove a very easy way to make isk, Those stupid pilots repping people in faction and officer fit BS's lol.
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Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.07.22 19:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gabrialle Welcome to eve!
Rule 1:- paranoia saves lives Rule 2:- Dont fly what you cant afford to lose Rule 3:- We really mean it about the paranoia!
Excellent.
Originally by: Cebraio OP and I seem to be the only people here who have some pity on the faithful.
The faithfully stupid?
Originally by: Cebraio Really, do you always have to get pwned in EVE for being friendly to someone? I think it ruins a lot and makes it even more a MSORPG.
In Hello Kitty Spaceship Adventure, nobody takes advantage of the unthinking kindness of others!
---- Suddenly Ninjas Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
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Irn Bruce
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Posted - 2009.07.22 20:20:00 -
[10]
It happened to me once, and I petitioned it and got my ship reimbursed.
To my mind, the issue isn't that this can happen, indeed, the mechanic itself is correct, you should get a GCC for RRing someone with a GCC. The issue is that you get no warning it's going to happen, except that you see them locking you, but by that stage it's too late, unless you have lightning fast reflexes and your RR cycle just ends between them locking you and their offensive modules activating. You don't even get the usual "you will be concorded for proceeding with this action" warning message, because it's triggered when you activate the module. If the module is already active, you get no warning, so there's nothing you can do to avoid it.
This is very similar to the reason they took mines out of the game. People would leave them in lowsec, then they'd go to highsec, and at some random point someone would run into the mine in lowsec, the player who owned the mine would get a GCC for aggressing them and get concorded. Mines were taken out because of that, and that's an offensive module you placed which caused damage to someone you had no right to damage, you just weren't there to see it happen.
I'm not saying RR should be removed, it shouldn't, but at the very least pop up a concord warning (which you can turn off if you want), and stop the modules/drones from reactivating unless you click proceed.
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Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.07.23 17:13:00 -
[11]
I tried to report this as bug a while ago. The bughunter stated that it works like intended.
To be honest, if i could, i would escalate such missbehavior to a dev who might actually have in depth mechanic knowledge to figure out if its really a bug.
From my perspective its clearly a bug which was a side effect of the GCC mechanic. They just did overlooked this little side effect.
And because its such a niche problem, no one cares.
Personally it bugs me, because i sometimes tend to repair foreign people just for fun. I even warp into their missions to rep them when i am in the mood if it.
Its actually funny that ninja repping often leads to responses like "come on shoot me if!" from my victims. Its good that most of them are not aware of the fact that they have the power to instapop my expensive logistics while they would lose only some peanuts if they are insured.
Im also remember that i tried to pop others by abusing this mechanic. Its just the odd thing that its actually really really hard to find someone who is willing to repair you :) So i doubt that its possible to pop enough ships to get recognized.
After that bughunters response i added it to the concord wiki page including my original bug id (which is somehow useless because only ccp is able to look into such bug report): http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Concord_(Mechanics)
The bughunters response:
Quote: //Hello, This is by design. "Behaviors Concord will not respond to: Using a remote repair module on a player" - this relates to repairing a player. However if you repair someone that has performed an illegal concord no-no then it is a crime. If you would like to suggest a change please do so on the forums. //Thank you. BH Beuller
So i can just say: I already tried it as petition, as bug and as feature & request forums thread. I also talked to a GM ingame and he proposed that this forum is the right place to discuss it.
Personal opionion: It is really annoying that it is impossible to get a competent insider to comment to such a topic. |
Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.07.23 17:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Kel Nissa on 23/07/2009 17:24:55 Reproduction Steps:
Quote: 1) Player A remote repairs player B which is perfectly okay 2) Player B attacks player A per accident (or exploits it and does it by intention) 3) Concord kills player B because he did a crime 3b) This is the bug: Concord kills player A because he aided a criminal
Proposal:
Quote: The remote support module stops cycling after the aided player did a crime.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.07.23 17:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Irn Bruce The issue is that you get no warning it's going to happen, except that you see them locking you, but by that stage it's too late.
This can be done without the victim even seeing a lock take place. Smartbombs are one option. If they prefer to keep at range, in order not to look suspicious, they can use a passive targeter (which also allows them to carry out a covert ship + cargo scan before they decide whether or not to open fire). If they time the attack to take place right at the end of the 1st rep cycle, you'll have less than a second to react.
Their loss will be minimal, and they can have a neutral alt on standby to loot whatever tasty stuff you drop. |
Jaxoff Onyu
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.07.23 18:41:00 -
[14]
It's not stupid to help people. And people who are willing to help strangers are not unthinking, it takes a lot of trust and sympathy to help others. What's stupid is taking advantage of people's trust. You replace the trust and sympathy with fear and indifference. You destroy society and what goes around, comes around so, you only make life worse for yourself. Only the dumbest most unthinking and unconscionable nuckle-draggers in existence are capable of doing that just for their own amusement.
Just fix the bounty system. |
Tas Nok
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Posted - 2009.07.23 18:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kel Nissa Edited by: Kel Nissa on 23/07/2009 17:24:55 Reproduction Steps:
Quote: 1) Player A remote repairs player B which is perfectly okay 2) Player B attacks player A per accident (or exploits it and does it by intention) 3) Concord kills player B because he did a crime 3b) This is the bug: Concord kills player A because he aided a criminal
Proposal:
Quote: The remote support module stops cycling after the aided player did a crime.
This is by far the easiest and most elegant fix...I do occasionally fleet up with friends out of corp and we rep each other all the time... I guess we've been lucky that no-one's 4yr old (or cat) pounded on the keyboard and fired weapons, getting us popped. |
Uronksur Suth
Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.07.23 19:31:00 -
[16]
Tell me if I'm wrong, but this problem could be easily avoided by not remote repping complete total strangers.
This is EVE Online, not Hello Kitty Space Adventures. I think if your actually stupid enough to trust, and remote rep a complete stranger, you deserve whatever happens to you
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Impact
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Posted - 2009.07.24 20:23:00 -
[17]
Well I hold firm that this is a exploit. Cause it is not the intended use for the programming. There have been a lot of times in this game where CCP has handed out warnings, and bans due to people finding a small glitch or mutation of the programming and using it to there advantage. Jamming and Sensor Damping gate guns when they were first introduced. Placing 50 - 100 cans on a gate in order to cause lag when landing on the gate for easy ganking. They reprogrammed Concord after Yulai where the individual killed a bunch of concord and lived due to being repped. And more recently the 50 accounts banned for the POS exploit, which as anyone paying attention has affected the market greatly. And a Paladin was recently returned to an associate of mine due to this concord exploit/mechanical bug. If there wasnÆt anything wrong when lets face it CCP wouldnÆt replace the item. So it is obviously working improper.
You always got the chat warriors like Gin G trying to act hard and say QQ more, but in the grand fashion of a chat warrior he did not read the part where I said it never happened to me.
Though I think Kel has a fantastic idea, but the programming would have to include high sec only. Low sec it would hamper the pursuit of the pirates.
I am a 2003 character, and to have Uronksur Suth a 2009 say ôThis is EVE Online, not Hello Kitty Space Adventures. I think if your actually stupid enough to trust, and remote rep a complete stranger, you deserve whatever happens to youö is quiet folly.
We all have required help in this game; I spend years in the starter corp helping people. And no one can honestly say ôI did it all on my ownö We all have required help at one or another point in this game from a stranger. Weather you got in over your head in a mission (which we have all done), or needed information on something. Especially now with the less experiences players from some reason trying to blast threw level 4 missions with Drake, and no support skills for that ship.
Anyone who says it is stupid to help people is either a moron, or puberty challenged mentally or physically. If there wasnÆt any trust in this game then there wouldnÆt be alliances, and none of you would be in corps. You need to start out on trust in order to make it.
Greifing, and scamming are intricate parts of the game, and they have there place. I fully agree they should be allowed in the game. But to allow an exploit to go threw using programming for not its intended purpose is a mechanical bug. And as with all exploits in Eve should be a short term Bann able, and/or warning offense.
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Xorth Adimus
Caldari The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.07.24 23:27:00 -
[18]
You should only be helping/fleeting/flying with corp mates not random strangers. Even then don't trust anyone 100%, this is EVE.
Originally by: Uronksur Suth Tell me if I'm wrong, but this problem could be easily avoided by not remote repping complete total strangers.
This is EVE Online, not Hello Kitty Space Adventures. I think if your actually stupid enough to trust, and remote rep a complete stranger, you deserve whatever happens to you
Welcome to EVE, don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.
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Irn Bruce
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Posted - 2009.07.24 23:58:00 -
[19]
As I mentioned, the issue isn't even that this can happen, the issue is that the concord warning message doesn't pop up. If you've turned that message off, or you hit proceed anyway, then I agree that you should indeed be concorded, that's your own stupidity, but if you have actively decided to leave the concord message on so as you won't accidentally do something that gets you concorded, i.e. with the express intention of preventing things like this from happening, you should not get a GCC. That feature (the concord warnign box) is where the bug is, that's definitely NOT working as intended. You don't actively perform an illegal action, it's just that the legal action you are currently performing becomes illegal, through no fault of your own, and you can do nothing about it.
The best solution to my mind would be that you don't get GCCed until the next module cycle starts, rather than as soon as the person you are repping gets flagged. that way, if you have the warningenabled, it will pop up when the repper tries to reactivate, and you can choose not to proceed. Even if you have the warning turned off, if you're attentive enough (and lucky enough to have your rep cycle at the right point) you can still deactivate the module before the next cycle and survive.
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Impact
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Posted - 2009.07.26 03:06:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Impact on 26/07/2009 03:08:08 Edited by: Impact on 26/07/2009 03:07:39 Well Irn alot of people are getting remburst for it. The thing I am trying for is to get those who do it some sort of punishment. I mean those morons who love the catch phrase "Welcome to Eve" are usually the same yellow back who drop cans on New player stations and bait. Which by the way you can be banned for doing that action. Of course anyone who says "Welcome to Eve" to a 2003 - 2005 character are pathetically arrogant, or forrest gump stupid.
The reason why I am posting here is I beleive there should be repercussions for the actions taken by these people. Argueing how to fix it is a dev problem. But since the GM's pushed me here when I tryed petitions to make it an offense that has punishment so I am posting here. I am sure the Devs will get to fixing it. But I am making the push to have the yellow back cowards who do it receive punishments for it.
If CCP can look down on some one can baiting a new player for not knowing, then I dont see this as much different. The victum getting killed usually is a nice person who dosent know any better, and is only trying to help. As I am sure they received help in the past. And we all know how CCP hates to have to replace things. So this would help cut back on that. Its easyer to ban then it is to figure out what ship and parts were lost I am sure ^_^
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Shereza
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Posted - 2009.07.26 07:28:00 -
[21]
A game where you can trust NPC security mechanics to not screw you over in "common sense" situations would be a good game, not "Hello Kitty Online." CONCORD, for all the good it does, is also one of the most incredibly assinine pieces of coding I have ever seen in my life.
Repair someone whom then shoots you and gets nuked by CONCORD thereby reuslting in your getting nuked by CONCORD if one of your repair cycles triggers after he/she shoots you? Feh, sure, whatever. This makes about as much sense as a situation where you're rep'ing an alt/friend in another corporation while shooting NPCs and client lag/stutter from one ship blowing up causes the "active" brackets to settle on your friend/alt shortly after you just spammed all your fire keys.
CONCORD does not like remote repair mechanics, pure and simple, and it's really sad that if it were any other way someone would find a way to abuse it, but then someone's found a way to abuse it as things currently stand so it's not much different.
It would be nice, however, if the criminal intent warnings for logistics drones and remote logistics modules checked each cycle and only popped up if the target was a 'criminal,' but that would go against CCP's "Need for Speed" fetish and would likely not happen.
As it stands, I have a possible solution that may eliminate most, if not all, of the problem here.
Pulse your repair modules and don't use logistics drones on strangers. I'm thinking that if they shoot you after a cycle starts and you don't initiate any more repair cycles after they shoot you you'll be safe. The fact that each module being in that red-cannot-interact-with status means it'd be harder to accidentally repair them after they shoot you.
Originally by: Xorth Adimus
Welcome to EVE, don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.
Isn't that what I told you when you refused to pay an armageddon and a legion to have a love child with me? ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Jin Labarre
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Posted - 2009.07.27 06:46:00 -
[22]
Concord 1: "Look there! That guy punched the girl that gave him ice cream!" Concord 2: "I see! We have to kill him!" *BOOM* Concord 1: "Wait... That girl gave him ice cream, before he punched her, right?" Concord 2: "And...?" Concord 1: "That means she was assisting a violent criminal!" Concord 2: "W00t?! x_X" Concord 1: "We have to kill her, too!" Concord 2: "Are you insane?" Concord 1: "No, seriously. Doesn't that sound perfectly logical to you?" Concord 2: "I'm going to report you for being a moron. You better not move a muscle. Where the hell did you get that badge?!"
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Jint Hikaru
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.07.27 08:30:00 -
[23]
While I agree that is is a bad game mechanic in the way it currently works.
We really can't have RRing not flaging to Concord. If you had enough people RRing a criminal, he could do some pretty devistating suicide ganking.
I can't think of a work around at the moment that would not be exploited by griefers. ------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------ |
Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.27 09:07:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Karentaki on 27/07/2009 09:07:20 So you would be ok with concord being nerfed so they don't attack people who remote rep criminals? You do realise that with enough RR you can tank concord right? Good. Well, I fully support nerfing concord. Just remember to let them kill you after a few hours so you aren't breaking the rules.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.27 09:28:00 -
[25]
You don't have to shoot the person repping you, you could just as easily shoot anything which CONCORD deems to be protected - e.g. acceleration gates, other peoples wrecks, stations, etc. The person repping you wouldn't know anything about it until they suddenly find themselves with a GCC.
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Ydyp Ieva
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.07.27 09:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Durzel You don't have to shoot the person repping you, you could just as easily shoot anything which CONCORD deems to be protected - e.g. acceleration gates, other peoples wrecks, stations, etc. The person repping you wouldn't know anything about it until they suddenly find themselves with a GCC.
And mostly they only notice that after seeing themself in a pod. Not that a repping boat is expecting trouble and fits a tank ;)
But well I only use RR-modules on friends/corpies (agreed that some corpies are tricky as they sometimes open fire on me). All the others requesting for help I just warp in, look for the scramblers. Gank the scramblers and be gone. If he doesn't know the warp out tactic it is his loss not mine. ---------------------------------- None of yet! |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.27 10:07:00 -
[27]
Put a post up in the Assembly Hall section of the forum.
It is the right location for this.
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xOm3gAx
Caldari Stain of Mind
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Impact Hi There
I was sitting in a chat channel and I been made aware of a new kind of, what I consider to be mechanic bug/exploit. Thankfully it never happened to me.
Apparently people are asking for help in missions, and asking if you can armor, or shield rep them, and as soon as you start they target you and shoot you. This of course brings concord in, and they attack not only the attacking ship, but you for repping them.
My issues are as fallows. This is not the intended protocol for concords safety programming. Though Concord are meant to kill a repping ship when a suicide gank is happening. They were not intended to be a grieverÆs tool in order to compile kill mails. There alone I believe a warning should be placed out about this mechanical bug, and openly let people know there will be reprimands for exploiting this bug, as there are in any exploit in the game.
Just like back in 2003 and start of 2004 when people figured they could sensor dampen the gate guns CCP were handing out small bans for doing this issue until you fixed it.
My second issue with it is that it is entrapment. Yes I know there are grievers in this game and they are clowns who get kicks off hammering defenseless and unknowing people. But there are the few nice helpful people who take the time to go into missions to help those who have problems completing the mission. And this is a form of entrapment. Which is reason enough to label a warning? The exploiters of the bug which they are doing. Are racking up marauder and other kills because there are no repercussions to the action they are taken in this manner.
And...... ThatÆs all I have to say about it at this time. LOL go get a drink and rest your eyes after all that reading ^_^
This did not used to trigger concord. It was changed because of zombie corp in yulai iirc. They exploited the way the system worked and locked it down for a very long time. It now triggers concord to prevent exploitation of remote rep's.
Originally by: CCP Abraxas Her boyfriend's way hot, too; tall and tanned. And I say this as a very hetero male who doesn't ever dream of the man on cold, dark nights.
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NH SC
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Posted - 2009.07.27 12:48:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jin Labarre Concord 1: "Look there! That guy punched the girl that gave him ice cream!" Concord 2: "I see! We have to kill him!" *BOOM* Concord 1: "Wait... That girl gave him ice cream, before he punched her, right?" Concord 2: "And...?" Concord 1: "That means she was assisting a violent criminal!" Concord 2: "W00t?! x_X" Concord 1: "We have to kill her, too!" Concord 2: "Are you insane?" Concord 1: "No, seriously. Doesn't that sound perfectly logical to you?" Concord 2: "I'm going to report you for being a moron. You better not move a muscle. Where the hell did you get that badge?!"
nice post
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.27 13:34:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 27/07/2009 13:33:42 Heh, I never condired this mechnic. Seems kinda on the border of its intended use/exploit.
I would demand the mission runner to fleet me, but that means you need to trust them more ^^.
Then I again I really don't help strangers at all... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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