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Trollin
48
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Posted - 2012.05.24 09:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
2,531 =/= 25,310
anybody who gets ganked after that deserves it for not running a dcu II, which would get it up to ~65k ehp, which would take ~2-3 ganknados, which would cost as much as the hulk, which is fair.
it takes a billion isk of ganknado to pop a billion isk freighter amirite?
why does it only take 10m isk dessie to pop a 250-300m exhumer? . |
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
47
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Posted - 2012.05.24 10:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
I would actually be ok with this. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7203
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Posted - 2012.05.24 10:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Trollin wrote:anybody who gets ganked after that deserves it for not running a dcu II, which would get it up to ~65k ehp, which would take ~2-3 ganknados, which would cost as much as the hulk, which is fair. So in other words, it's a bit muchGǪ
It's not meant to be fair. By the way, if you tank your Hulk, it already requires 2 ganknados, so by that measure, it's already fair.
Quote:why does it only take 10m isk dessie to pop a 300m exhumer? Because price is not a factor in balance, and because the exhumer is a resource collection vehicle, not a combat ship (and even then, the Hulk is already surprisingly strong for its size).
Also, what are you basing that GÇ£10M ISKGÇ¥ number on? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
593
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Posted - 2012.05.24 10:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cost has nothing whatsoever to do with balance. You do know that, right? |
Jafit McJafitson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
279
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Posted - 2012.05.24 10:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Trollin wrote:why does it only take 10m isk dessie to pop a 250-300m exhumer?
Because the 10m isk ships are combat ships designed to do damage, whereas the 300m ship is an industrial ship designed to mine ore. What is the justification for giving a barge it the EHP of a fully tanked Battlecruiser other than "I don't like being attacked in a PvP game"? Should all ships have EHP that scales with their market value while ignoring all other benefits of the hull? Maybe we should have a module that scales the EHP of haulers to be proportional to their cargo's Jita value?
If you don't like the risk/reward ratio there are things you can do that don't involve demanding changes to game mechanics or ship balance.
You can move somewhere else like low sec, where you know you're in danger if someone enters local or enters your belt. Plus you get better ores and don't have to pay for POS charters or have standings. All you have to do is put up with people trying to kill you, which is what you do now anyway.
Find an empty wormhole and scan down grav sites, there are plenty of emtpy W-space systems of various classes.
You could mine in cheaper ships. Knowing that you're vulnerable it would make sense to mine in a ship you can replace 10 times over, instead of one which you can't replace. Mine in a Coveter instead of a Hulk and minimise your losses when you die. If I go ratting in nullsec I'll prefer an easily replaceable BS over a deadspace fitted faction BS or Maurauder, because I know that at some point someone is going to catch me and blow it up.
Take responsibility for your own safety and prosperity and adapt to your circumstances instead of demanding changes to the game. Otherwise you may as well just be playing a single player game. |
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
93
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Posted - 2012.05.24 10:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nice name OP |
Trollin
48
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Posted - 2012.05.24 10:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
i docked my hulk up 100 days ago, wish i sold it now as market price is -50m since then.
since then im into PI and 3m sp into trading, winning the whole time
my orca has 53k structure hp for no apparent reason.. why isnt it paper thin also?
that u all are against only tells me that a handfull of people like ganking, that i already knew.
i am not demanding a change, its a suggestion, and i could care less if its implement.
my name says all that need be said. . |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7207
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Posted - 2012.05.24 10:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Trollin wrote:my orca has 53k structure hp for no apparent reason.. why isnt it paper thin also? Because it's a huge semi-capital ship that's large enough to carry a small fleet inside it.
Quote:that u all are against only tells me that a handfull of people like ganking, If that's the only thing it tells you, you really need to think harder.
Quote:my name says all that need be said. Indeed it does. Silly idea. 0/10.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Jeniam Retriat
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.05.24 12:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Trollin wrote:my orca has 53k structure hp for no apparent reason.. why isnt it paper thin also? Because it's a huge semi-capital ship that's large enough to carry a small fleet inside it.
Well, by that theory a lone Hulk is half a small fleet in volume, so it shouldn't be paper-thin either. I don't see how "Orcas are big and can carry other ships therefore they are very structurally sound" makes sense to you at the same time as you argue "Hulks are bulky and slow and carry lots of ore but they should be paper thin"
Jafit McJafitson wrote:Because the 10m isk ships are combat ships designed to do damage, whereas the 300m ship is an industrial ship designed to mine ore. What is the justification for giving a barge it the EHP of a fully tanked Battlecruiser other than "I don't like being attacked in a PvP game"?
The 300m ship is an industrial ship designed to mine ore in hostile space. Lore-wise, it was made by ORE to mine in nullsec, ingame everywhere a Hulk goes is hostile space, pretty much.
If you really think that Hulk EHP is in any way balanced, allow me to offer up a comparison between 2 Tech 2 non-combat industry ships:
First, we take a Hulk that has been setup purely for tank. It looks like this:
[Hulk, Tanking Hulk] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Small Shield Extender II
Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II, Mercoxit Mining Crystal I Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II, Mercoxit Mining Crystal I Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II, Mercoxit Mining Crystal I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
and according to EFT it has 29.6k EHP, with every module aside from the Strip Miners dedicated to increasing tank. To compare that, we have:
[Occator, Bulk Hauler] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II
Small Tractor Beam II
Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I
which has 32k EHP, despite the fact that it's been fitted purely for cargo - that is, maximising its primary purpose and loading up on rigs and mods that actually reduce its structure and armor HP, and it's still 10% tougher than the max-tanked Hulk is. Oh, and this ship has a pricetag of about 1/3 the Hulk fit above. If you go for a more defensive fit and actually start throwing armor, resists and damcons on there it'll easy beat out that 65k you were complaining about.
So, are you going to start complaining that Transports are OP, or admit that Hulks are UP or have you got some sort of justification for why one non-combat Industrial should offer decent protection while focusing on its primary role and great protection when fit for it, while another non-combat industrial has no tank when focusing on its primary role and only has any defence at the cost of compromising its primary role? |
Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2012.05.24 12:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
I thought we covered this.
If I toss a $50 hand grenade into a Porche, it doesn't survive by virtue of its price tag. Its a Porche. Not a tank. |
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Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
111
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Posted - 2012.05.24 13:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Whilst I understand, and have been agreeing with so far, the argument that Hulks are fine as is I'm now starting to disagree.
Like the OP I've not bothered using any of my hulks for ~3 months now. There's absolutely no point in using a Hulk, tanked or not, in high sec any more. The only use for a hulk is in nullsec mining ops inside "secure" alliance space or in WH mining ops.
I expect there are quite a few people who are like us too in respect to not bothering to use a Hulk in high sec. It has nothing to do with being AFK or not paying attention to what you're doing. It has to do with the practicalities of mining operations. All those people that say "Mine aligned" don't ever do mining in anything other than solo ops because you simply can't. Unless you're going to warp to station to dump your load you simply can't mine aligned as you move out of range of the orca too quickly and are then completely vulnerable as you turn around and fly the opposite direction back towards the op.
They're simply too easy to kill, tanked or not. The risk/reward for using them to mine in high sec is our of whack now. I'm not suggesting any sort of change at the moment. I merely wanted to point out that there is a problem with Hulks as far as high sec miners are concerned. Obviously, there isn't a problem as far as those that like to kill hulks are concerned. Just like if hulks were given 100k hull there wouldn't be a problem as far as the miners were concerned but there would as far as those that like to kill hulks in high sec are concerned. Surely the situation should be brought more into the middle ground a bit so both camps can whine and be happy rather than it being so one sided as it is at the moment.
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Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1008
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Posted - 2012.05.24 13:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
fix the technetium issue in EVE and suddenly the Hulk isnt so expensive
Supposedly this is in the works
So, lets not base its survivability on its pricetag My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1065
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Posted - 2012.05.24 13:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Counter proposal: CCP should ban characters that call themselves names like "trollin" and post intentionally provocative proposals laced with deliberate inaccuracies.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Velicitia
Open Designs
937
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Posted - 2012.05.24 13:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:Whilst I understand, and have been agreeing with so far, the argument that Hulks are fine as is I'm now starting to disagree.
Like the OP I've not bothered using any of my hulks for ~3 months now. There's absolutely no point in using a Hulk, tanked or not, in high sec any more. The only use for a hulk is in nullsec mining ops inside "secure" alliance space or in WH mining ops.
I expect there are quite a few people who are like us too in respect to not bothering to use a Hulk in high sec. It has nothing to do with being AFK or not paying attention to what you're doing. It has to do with the practicalities of mining operations. All those people that say "Mine aligned" don't ever do mining in anything other than solo ops because you simply can't. Unless you're going to warp to station to dump your load you simply can't mine aligned as you move out of range of the orca too quickly and are then completely vulnerable as you turn around and fly the opposite direction back towards the op.
They're simply too easy to kill, tanked or not. The risk/reward for using them to mine in high sec is our of whack now. I'm not suggesting any sort of change at the moment. I merely wanted to point out that there is a problem with Hulks as far as high sec miners are concerned. Obviously, there isn't a problem as far as those that like to kill hulks are concerned. Just like if hulks were given 100k hull there wouldn't be a problem as far as the miners were concerned but there would as far as those that like to kill hulks in high sec are concerned. Surely the situation should be brought more into the middle ground a bit so both camps can whine and be happy rather than it being so one sided as it is at the moment.
Why is it a "bad" thing that it's not cost-effective to run a hulk in hisec?
Seriously, it gets ~15% better yield than the Covetor, which has more than enough tank to deal with the rats that show up... and is significantly cheaper
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Metal Icarus
xHELLonEARTHx
186
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Posted - 2012.05.24 13:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
I too feel that T2 industrial ships need larger T2 tanks.
You'd think that industrial mining ships would have more structure than a battleship. As they need the structure to hold all the ore and support all the mass.
As it is now, you'd think it was all held together by wet paper and elmers glue. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
287
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Posted - 2012.05.24 14:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Balance wise, it is irrelevant that the cost of the ganking ships is chump change. CCP wants fights, and fighting ships should be affordable.
That being said, the risk vs reward aspect is being ignored here. If you want to pop a 300 million isk ship, you should need to place your bets a lot more than 10% of that target's cost.
By comparison, the cost of the attacking ships is disposable, and not any form of meaningful deterrent from associated risk of loss.
Seriously... if 10% leverage is all you really need, it should be practical to pop cap ships in a marauder. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1563
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Posted - 2012.05.24 15:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
What I tell everyone hullk tank whine thread:
You want high EHP? give up some yield and cargohold and mine in a Rokh. Exhumers are NOT intended to be tanky ships. They're supposed to be fragile, because they are built to do one job extremely well. If you can't defend your own mining op (hint: it's a lot easier to actually DEFEND in w-space or 0.0) then you shouldn't be flying paper miners. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1563
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Posted - 2012.05.24 15:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Balance wise, it is irrelevant that the cost of the ganking ships is chump change. CCP wants fights, and fighting ships should be affordable.
That being said, the risk vs reward aspect is being ignored here. If you want to pop a 300 million isk ship, you should need to place your bets a lot more than 10% of that target's cost.
By comparison, the cost of the attacking ships is disposable, and not any form of meaningful deterrent from associated risk of loss.
Seriously... if 10% leverage is all you really need, it should be practical to pop cap ships in a marauder.
The hulk costs 300 million because it's tech 2 and because it's THE BEST MINER IN THE GAME. You can get 75+% of the Hulk's yield with a Covetor and significantly reduce your risk of loss.
You can get 60-65% the yield with a mining Rokh. That will probably never be ganked. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
678
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Posted - 2012.05.24 15:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Because price is not a factor in balance, and because the exhumer is a resource collection vehicle, not a combat ship (and even then, the Hulk is already surprisingly strong for its size). To bad that RL money worth several months isn't taken into that account, because all you need a 21 day buddy trial and avoid the risk to your main. I still belive that all asteroid belts, reprocessing skills, and mining skills should be removed from game but if CCP won't do it just biomass your character as it works just as well.
But funny that, I do recall this other vessel where price isn't taken into account...its just a pain to train, build, and fly. What was it called...oh yeah...a Titan. It was designed as a fleet buster and was ment to destroy every ship on grid until the whines of a million crybabies rose up out of the silence (even the Jedi felt that one). Funny that...XL guns did just that as well as an AoE DD until it was nerfed. Oh, and its funny....a hulk pilot needs to fit tank so it doesn't blow up but a dude in a subcap doesn't need to fly something with sufficent tank that a sub cap ship doesn't blow up. Which means...its not the fault of the guy blowing you up, both the fault of both the hulk pilot and the sub cap pilot by not adapting in a way that doesn't result in them exploding (one fits tank, other flys a cap ship instead of a sub cap)...so un nerf Titan guns. Titan's are not OP, you just suck and refuse to find a way to counter it without whining to CCP.
But watch Tippia try to counter that logic...one needs to fit tank, other should fly anything but sub cap when facing a titan fleet. It is logical, fit tank on hulk or fly a bigger ship = you don't blow up to a destroyer or titan XL guns so easily. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
75
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Posted - 2012.05.24 15:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
Not just Hulk, but all the other exhumers and barges that have even less structure. Most of them have less structure than a heavy drone, it's ret4rd3d. Sure, barges should gankable, but this is over the top. |
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Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1009
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Posted - 2012.05.24 16:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Not just Hulk, but all the other exhumers and barges that have even less structure. Most of them have less structure than a heavy drone, it's ret4rd3d. Sure, barges should gankable, but this is over the top.
POsting some useless stats in line with a useless quote
Hulk Structure Hitpoints 2,531 HP
Ogre II Structure Hitpoints 1,421 HP
---
Mackinaw Structure Hitpoints 1,266 HP
Hammerhead II Structure Hitpoints 710 HP
---
Skiff Structure Hitpoints 633 HP
Hobgoblin II Structure Hitpoints 355 HP My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
75
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Posted - 2012.05.24 16:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:sabre906 wrote:Not just Hulk, but all the other exhumers and barges that have even less structure. Most of them have less structure than a heavy drone, it's ret4rd3d. Sure, barges should gankable, but this is over the top. POsting some useless stats in line with a useless quote Hulk Structure Hitpoints 2,531 HP Ogre II Structure Hitpoints 1,421 HP --- Mackinaw Structure Hitpoints 1,266 HP Retriever Structure Hitpoints 983 HP Ogre II Structure Hitpoints 1,421 HP --- Skiff Structure Hitpoints 633 HP Procurer Structure Hitpoints 469 HP Ogre II Structure Hitpoints 1,421 HP |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
111
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Posted - 2012.05.24 16:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:
Why is it a "bad" thing that it's not cost-effective to run a hulk in hisec?
Seriously, it gets ~15% better yield than the Covetor, which has more than enough tank to deal with the rats that show up... and is significantly cheaper
Funnily enough that's exactly what I use to mine (including ice) in high sec. The drop in production is more than offset by the lack of losses. Most gankers don't see Coveters as valid targets, especially if the chap sitting next to you is in a tech II ship. So, from my perspective it isn't a "bad" thing if just taken from the high sec perspective.
It just seems wrong that haulers can fit a decent tank but mining ships can't. The Tech II Exhumers are supposed to be decently tanked industry ships but I can tank a tech I hauler in such a way as to completely defecate all over the tech II mining ships. That seems to be badly balanced to me.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
157
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Posted - 2012.05.24 16:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Trollin wrote:2,531 =/= 25,310
anybody who gets ganked after that deserves it for not running a dcu II, which would get it up to ~65k ehp, which would take ~2-3 ganknados, which would cost as much as the hulk, which is fair.
it takes a billion isk of ganknado to pop a billion isk freighter amirite?
why does it only take 10m isk dessie to pop a 300m exhumer?
esp when miners are usually industrial, you would think they would fortify their machines beyond what a combat pilot could comprehend.
Good arguement... Balance is balance.. a ship that is supposed to be the pinnicle of mining should be able to be on per with the best tanking ships of it's size. this at least gives the hulk a better chance... though not too much. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
157
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 17:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Skippermonkey wrote:sabre906 wrote:Not just Hulk, but all the other exhumers and barges that have even less structure. Most of them have less structure than a heavy drone, it's ret4rd3d. Sure, barges should gankable, but this is over the top. POsting some useless stats in line with a useless quote Hulk Structure Hitpoints 2,531 HP Ogre II Structure Hitpoints 1,421 HP --- Mackinaw Structure Hitpoints 1,266 HP Retriever Structure Hitpoints 983 HP Ogre II Structure Hitpoints 1,421 HP --- Skiff Structure Hitpoints 633 HP Procurer Structure Hitpoints 469 HP Ogre II Structure Hitpoints 1,421 HP
...and the lesson we learn is we should be mining in Ogre IIs [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1664
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 17:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
02,531
There you go, I added a 0 to the Hulk's Hull HP. Are you happy now? |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
235
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 17:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
mxzf wrote:02,531
There you go, I added a 0 to the Hulk's Hull HP. Are you happy now?
You might want to read up on significant digits. That is not "added" as the current HP is 000...0002,531.000...000 |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
160
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Posted - 2012.05.24 18:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
The Hulk packages up so tight that you can fit a packaged one with all fittings and rigs into a GSC.
Not a whole lot of structure there, it is mostly empty space.
Just sayin'. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7285
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 18:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:To bad that RL money worth several months isn't taken into that account, because all you need a 21 day buddy trial and avoid the risk to your main. GÇ£Too badGÇ¥? No, that's a good thing. It means you can't overcome adversity just by being old.
Quote:But funny that, I do recall this other vessel where price isn't taken into account...its just a pain to train, build, and fly. What was it called...oh yeah...a Titan. Yes, the titan is a very good example. Just because it's expensive and takes a lot of time to train for doesn't mean it should make scores of other ships meaningless. Like everything else, it should be vulnerable to smaller ships and die horribly if caught in a bad spot. That's why it got the nerf: because it did things too well, and because cost and difficulty to train aren't things you can use to balance a ship.
Barbara Nichole wrote:Good arguement... Balance is balance.. a ship that is supposed to be the pinnicle of mining should be able to be on per with the best tanking ships of it's size. That's a non sequitur if I ever saw one. Why should it be that? What does mining have to do with tanking ability? Its tanking ability is already on par with many other T2 cruisers GÇö why does the Hulk need more? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 18:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:The Hulk packages up so tight that you can fit a packaged one with all fittings and rigs into a GSC.
Not a whole lot of structure there, it is mostly empty space.
Just sayin'.
An Ogre must be huge! |
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