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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
288
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Posted - 2012.05.24 17:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Forget local. With this idea, it becomes optional, if not obsolete.
For lack of a more familiar reference, players need a radar screen. (Radar screen fails to explain the concept properly, but most will get the basic idea)
Ships have sensors. USE THEM. People want a convenient heads up display for important information, and without a doubt this should be considered important.
Here is a simple tip: Use the overview. It can do this surprisingly well.
Just add a category of items to the overview, call them sensor items. Highlight them in day-glo green or something so they stand out. Your ship's sensor strength and your detecting abilities combine to give your current ship it's sensor range. You can't see whats outside your visual range, neither can your ship.
Got a cloak? Is your cloaking skill higher than their sensor skill? They can't see you until you get closer then. The passive default scan will never see a cloaked vessel. They will be warned a cloaked vessel is in range if they do active scans, just not details about how many or how far. Active scans can be toggled on, but need to be reset after anything that moves you off your current grid, like undocking / changing systems / warping to another spot in system.
Logic: you must make an effort to detect someone making an effort to hide. If they are better at hiding, then they can get closer to you before you can know they are there.
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Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
44
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Posted - 2012.05.24 18:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
You aren't really adding anything to the game, just giving it a more convenient means of display. I would think this would be fairly easy to put in, because of that. Maybe I'm wrong?
The toggle on D-Scan is a nice touch, how often would it cycle?
I like having a reason to train up sensor skills. That electronics suite is neglected unless people care about probing usually... |
Trollin
52
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Posted - 2012.05.24 19:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dradis - BSG . |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
290
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Posted - 2012.05.24 19:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
BSG, very cool stuff, their art department made it look high tech with a gritty element. I think the idea is we are ready to believe in space flight so long as they don't bring a vacuum cleaner, lol.
The dradis looks really cool, but I think the overview itself has more functional value. We are already used to it for 'On Grid' intelligence gathering, and target sorting. Adding sensor contacts to this list, (along with the existing nav beacons and local grid items), I feel will be more intuitive and easy to use. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
290
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Posted - 2012.05.24 19:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:You aren't really adding anything to the game, just giving it a more convenient means of display. I would think this would be fairly easy to put in, because of that. Maybe I'm wrong?
The toggle on D-Scan is a nice touch, how often would it cycle?
I like having a reason to train up sensor skills. That electronics suite is neglected unless people care about probing usually... I think you may be right about it being easy to put in, only the guys coding can say for certain though.
I don't think calling it a cycle makes sense in this context. It is a constant active item. Folks in wormholes think in cycles because they manually trigger it, like a camera taking a still shot. This is more like a live video feed than a still image, to further that analogy.
I think ships in your corp / alliance should automatically ID themselves once in range too, based on the friendly IFF concept. This means you know if something is unspecified beyond ship type or model, you should be wary if in dangerous space...
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Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2012.05.25 14:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:You aren't really adding anything to the game, just giving it a more convenient means of display. I would think this would be fairly easy to put in, because of that. Maybe I'm wrong?
The toggle on D-Scan is a nice touch, how often would it cycle?
I like having a reason to train up sensor skills. That electronics suite is neglected unless people care about probing usually... I think you may be right about it being easy to put in, only the guys coding can say for certain though. I don't think calling it a cycle makes sense in this context. It is a constant active item. Folks in wormholes think in cycles because they manually trigger it, like a camera taking a still shot. This is more like a live video feed than a still image, to further that analogy. I think ships in your corp / alliance should automatically ID themselves once in range too, based on the friendly IFF concept. This means you know if something is unspecified beyond ship type or model, you should be wary if in dangerous space... Agreed, the IFF instantly cleaning your scan results makes a lot of sense. Alliance and corp mates should automatically recognize each other.
It also gives a suspense element to being in space. You aren't supposed to know everything that's going on!
Make people think. They want to think.
They could play WoW if they wanted to stop thinking. |
Leviathian
Black Core Federation Intrepid Crossing
7
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Support.
I'm all for short-range burst sensors instead of system-wide realtime sensors. A nerf on local, definitely, but not a complete lack of intel.
Adds difficulty (which despite the protests of so, so many people, EVE needs.), and doesn't completely destroy any intel gathering. infact I think it makes intel gathering more useful, which it SHOULD be. Intel is one of the main components of war, after all. having easy intel just makes it a bash eachother until we're all dead game.
Also, the D-Scan could use an overhaul to make it more intuitive, anyway. This could be a cool addition.
plus BSG is pure awesome.
PS: Radar is a much more logical, realistic approach to this game. Local is outdated and overabused. and i'm all for more realism to games. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
295
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Posted - 2012.05.25 16:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Leviathian wrote:Adds difficulty (which despite the protests of so, so many people, EVE needs.), and doesn't completely destroy any intel gathering. infact I think it makes intel gathering more useful, which it SHOULD be. Intel is one of the main components of war, after all. having easy intel just makes it a bash eachother until we're all dead game. This is my point exactly.
Players who just want to be placed into two or more teams where they shoot it out... this does not describe space combat.
It describes dodge ball.
Space combat takes in all the elements of:
Things being outside your range to detect. Ships being outclassed by you, and the reverse. Teamwork meaning more than DPS being exchanged.
Being clever, and better prepared, are not rated as highly as they should be with current intel.
We're in space, not a primary school gymnasium. |
Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2012.05.25 19:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
I keep hearing arguments on different threads, things that imply EVE players hate taking the effort to do things.
Some might say players want a first person shooter, where they can look at a menu roster and see everyone on both sides at a glance. In some games, it even tells you what kind of role they are playing.
WH pilots have shown we can play without local.
Is everyone else trying to say these pilots are that much better, and only they can do this? |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
298
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Posted - 2012.05.29 13:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:I keep hearing arguments on different threads, things that imply EVE players hate taking the effort to do things.
Some might say players want a first person shooter, where they can look at a menu roster and see everyone on both sides at a glance. In some games, it even tells you what kind of role they are playing.
WH pilots have shown we can play without local.
Is everyone else trying to say these pilots are that much better, and only they can do this? Aw heck no!
Most pilots have just gotten so used to the idea that local hands them free intel, that they are simply resisting change.
A lot of them would probably like it, once they got used to it. It's a lot more realistic to use ship's sensors than to rely on chat gods to dispense intel wisdom... |
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
313
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Posted - 2012.06.01 16:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Updated OP |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
313
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Posted - 2012.06.04 13:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
With so many pointing out how local causes problems, it is worth reminding people that there are other options that can work.
And not just work, but add to the feel and immersive appeal of the game.
The only negative aspect anyone pointed out, is that it requires a change. That's it, they pointed out how ANY change will result in players being unhappy.
You could make Caldari shuttles neon blue, and some would be mad about it.
But as most of us also know, we adapt. And after we adapted to this logical change, the game could become more enjoyable than it is, even now. |
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
280
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Posted - 2012.07.01 09:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bump for a great idea |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
364
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Posted - 2012.07.02 15:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:Bump for a great idea Appreciated.
I would really like to play in the game the Devs intended, not just the one they compromised into as a result of some unexpected play styles. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Teshania
Aliastra Gallente Federation
31
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Posted - 2012.07.02 15:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
I love this!! And supported, a few things i can see as add ons..
Passive scanning and someone is active scanning, you might depending on senor strength of ship and how far out they are, get a ping from a general direction. Won't give you range.
ACTIVE Scanning causing your Sig to bloom, and/or Destabilize your cloak, (You have a good chance of being picked up on radar even if you are cloaked, its like screaming while you are in the shadows). When active Scanning you send out a ping link subs do in the ocean, and waiting to hear the bounce back to deter man general direction and range.
Now where is the Good stuff for this. Advanced Skill module for this. IFF Newtorking. US airforce using something similar to this to create a battlefield view.
You put on a module that sends information to your Squad, of what you see while you are Scanning,Either Active or Passive. Since this is D-scan and limited range. You spread forces out. Think of it like this Your Ships become the probes themselves. But Do not give you enough information to ever Warp to. just gets you down to about 1AU.
Once you get updated Radar information from the network drop probes have fun ;)..
Soo you get 2-3 Active scanning ships supporting your cloakly fleet. So cloakly fleet gets and idea of where to put eyes. Since Active scanning in from a Cloaky would basicly Say, "OHH HEy i'm here, please shoot me" when on grid. Remaining Passive on cloaky would help you maintain your cloak. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
382
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Posted - 2012.07.10 13:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Agree with active scanning popping your cloak. You are broadcasting a data wave with the intent of studying the feedback created by objects it encounters. (These are basically reflections of that data wave modified by the circumstances of the object).
To assume you would not be visible at least during the broadcast period is bizarre.
That being said, there is a workaround already in the game. Using probes. The obvious problem with this comes into play when you consider that the probes are visible to anyone watching for them. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Shish Tukay
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
13
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
> D-Scan as a module
Yes. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
401
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Posted - 2012.07.12 13:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bumping to increase views Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate
101
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Posted - 2012.07.12 13:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
The cloaking/scanning change would have to be evaluated more closely. Specifically, this would severely impact the effectiveness of the Pilgrim due to its short engagement range, and would practically render cloaks on black-ops, tackle stealthbombers and haulers as useless. ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Teshania
Aliastra Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2012.07.12 14:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Fidelium Mortis wrote:The cloaking/scanning change would have to be evaluated more closely. Specifically, this would severely impact the effectiveness of the Pilgrim due to its short engagement range, and would practically render cloaks on black-ops, tackle stealthbombers and haulers as useless.
No it would not make them useless.. If they allowed for up linking of a passive D-scan mode, then you spread out get a general idea of the ones actively d-scan, then drop probes and have fun.
You can still warp around and see if they are being idiots and sitting in system wide known locations.
Yes if they where Activity D-scaning would disrupt the cloak. Think of a Sub in the ocean sending out a ping.. You really don't know its around tell they actively start trying to pinging around trying to find something..
Think of this suggestion as moving, To Sonar in space. With the ability to send information to others in your fleet to make a clearer picture. |
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
403
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Posted - 2012.07.12 14:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Fidelium Mortis wrote:The cloaking/scanning change would have to be evaluated more closely. Specifically, this would severely impact the effectiveness of the Pilgrim due to its short engagement range, and would practically render cloaks on black-ops, tackle stealthbombers and haulers as useless. Not entirely true.
Let us consider your point, from the viewpoint of both sides you mentioned.
Cloaking should be effectively a contest of skills. The detection abilities of the target versus the cloaking abilities of the hunter.
From the potential targets of these cloaked vessels: Now, if they only trained the bare minimum in their sensor related skills, they would be half blind already. A properly skilled cloaking pilot could easily get on grid with them regardless of whether they active scanned or not, simply because they made too little effort preparing these skills. On the other hand, if they trained their sensory skills to the max, and the cloaking pilot only had theirs up to basic required levels, then the target would be aware of them long before they got near the target's grid. Should the skills be relatively equal, then the ships and module's effects would determine the results. A sensor booster on a ship with good sensors can give you that edge if your skills are even. But the target pilot needs to plan ahead and make the effort and sacrifices required to have this gear.
The hunting ship, cloaked in this case: Your target can never see you using passive sensors alone. They need to take an action in order to have a chance spotting you. They need to active sensor scan. If you have your skills at best possible levels, then the best they can do is match you on skills, and then it all comes down to hardware comparisons between the two ships. If they do NOT have best possible skills, and you do, you have them cold. Pop your cyno, line up the bomber for the run, whatever it is you begin your attack with. You made more effort than they did, and here is the payoff. If you went off joyriding in a ship you barely had the skills to fly, anyone active scanning has a good chance spotting you. You are an amateur in this case, and the results will follow.
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
403
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Posted - 2012.07.13 20:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Teshania wrote:Now where is the Good stuff for this. Advanced Skill module for this. IFF Newtorking. US airforce using something similar to this to create a battlefield view.
You put on a module that sends information to your Squad, of what you see while you are Scanning,Either Active or Passive. Since this is D-scan and limited range. You spread forces out. Think of it like this Your Ships become the probes themselves. But Do not give you enough information to ever Warp to. just gets you down to about 1AU.
Once you get updated Radar information from the network drop probes have fun ;)..
Soo you get 2-3 Active scanning ships supporting your cloakly fleet. So cloakly fleet gets and idea of where to put eyes. Since Active scanning in from a Cloaky would basicly Say, "OHH HEy i'm here, please shoot me" when on grid. Remaining Passive on cloaky would help you maintain your cloak. Mesh Networking of sensors for fleeted ships, limited to local system only.
Possibly a module, it might also need a function of a coordinating command ship. (It looks at a map the same way a prober does, but sees what the ships detect instead of the probes) Each ship linked by the module feeds back it's local sensor data, giving the command ship a combined sensor map of the system. (Imagine how computers take several pictures and combine them into one panoramic view, same idea) Said command ship can make bookmarks off of the locations the fleet ships occupy, on their behalf. Even while they are warping. The net effect is that the command ship can coordinate and analyze data to hunt targets faster and more efficiently than any single ship, so long as they have good scouts working with them. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Teshania
Aliastra Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2012.07.13 21:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Teshania wrote:Now where is the Good stuff for this. Advanced Skill module for this. IFF Newtorking. US airforce using something similar to this to create a battlefield view.
You put on a module that sends information to your Squad, of what you see while you are Scanning,Either Active or Passive. Since this is D-scan and limited range. You spread forces out. Think of it like this Your Ships become the probes themselves. But Do not give you enough information to ever Warp to. just gets you down to about 1AU.
Once you get updated Radar information from the network drop probes have fun ;)..
Soo you get 2-3 Active scanning ships supporting your cloakly fleet. So cloakly fleet gets and idea of where to put eyes. Since Active scanning in from a Cloaky would basicly Say, "OHH HEy i'm here, please shoot me" when on grid. Remaining Passive on cloaky would help you maintain your cloak. Mesh Networking of sensors for fleeted ships, limited to local system only. Possibly a module, it might also need a function of a coordinating command ship. (It looks at a map the same way a prober does, but sees what the ships detect instead of the probes) Each ship linked by the module feeds back it's local sensor data, giving the command ship a combined sensor map of the system. (Imagine how computers take several pictures and combine them into one panoramic view, same idea) Said command ship can make bookmarks off of the locations the fleet ships occupy, on their behalf. Even while they are warping. The net effect is that the command ship can coordinate and analyze data to hunt targets faster and more efficiently than any single ship, so long as they have good scouts working with them.
That is the basic concept. I do agree all data would have to be up linked to a 'Command Sensor Type Ship' Although This method would never allow for exact Pinpointing of Enemy(s) ships. IT how ever would get you close enough to drop probes and scan them down in 1~3 sweeps of probes.
IE Command sensor ship (Cloaky?!? maybe.) Scout ships x4 with active Sensors + Uplinks Covert ops Scan Frig
Would get you with in 1~2 AU of your target if your scouts are good and know what they are doing. Scan ship drops Probes and scans down target for warp in point.
Slow Method Command Sensor Ship (Cloaky) 10 Stealth bombers with Passive Sensors + Uplink 1 Covert Ops Scan frig
Bomber pack Warps to Celestial at random ranges, and waits for enemy to start Actively Scanning.. Bombers that cannot "See active Scan pings" move into range at different bodies and different ranges (Think of them as probes need to triangulate) All information is sent to Command Sensor ship Bombers move around tell they get best available data. This can be slow, cause it depends how active the target ship is active on its pings. Command ship can get within 3-8 AU Depending on number of 'Passive' Scouts it has. Drop probes have fun.
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
404
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Posted - 2012.07.17 16:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bumping.
People becoming self sufficient on their intel will make the game more immersive. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2012.07.18 15:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Teshania wrote:Command sensor ship (Cloaky?!? maybe.) Scout ships x4 with active Sensors + Uplinks Covert ops Scan Frig
Whoa... I sense a role for Black Ops ships here...
Intel and front line combat have never been aspects that mixed well, and it is a given the BLOPS is not a front line ship.
Add this intel coordinator function to it, and you just created the full package!
BLOPS bridges over it's intel fleet, and sets up surveillance. Quietly they map out locations for the regular fleet, and set up watching posts.
Total spy novel feel to it! |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
414
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Posted - 2012.07.20 16:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:Teshania wrote:Command sensor ship (Cloaky?!? maybe.) Scout ships x4 with active Sensors + Uplinks Covert ops Scan Frig Whoa... I sense a role for Black Ops ships here... Intel and front line combat have never been aspects that mixed well, and it is a given the BLOPS is not a front line ship. Add this intel coordinator function to it, and you just created the full package! BLOPS bridges over it's intel fleet, and sets up surveillance. Quietly they map out locations for the regular fleet, and set up watching posts. Total spy novel feel to it! That would definitely fit in with what I believe they intended Black Ops ships to be. Behind the lines coordinating of actions, and why not intel while they are at it. (Behind the lines here obviously meaning not on grid fighting directly, they are obviously cloaked deep in enemy territory in this context.)
I think that would be fantastic. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
433
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Posted - 2012.07.26 14:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bumping for Overview enhancing potential Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Krotch Vader
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.07.26 14:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:TL;DR: Add passive / active D-Scan information to the overview as an option. Passive would be no effort, active would be toggled on to give a possible chance to detect if a cloaked vessel is in range, as well as boost effective range So we get a spaceship with working sensors, that we actually rely on to know whats going on?
How did we end up with local for this instead? |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
434
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Posted - 2012.07.26 14:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
Krotch Vader wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:TL;DR: Add passive / active D-Scan information to the overview as an option. Passive would be no effort, active would be toggled on to give a possible chance to detect if a cloaked vessel is in range, as well as boost effective range So we get a spaceship with working sensors, that we actually rely on to know whats going on? How did we end up with local for this instead? My best guess, local was never meant to be used for this.
It just happened, and by the time they realized it was being used more for intel than anything else it was too late to change it without causing issues. A lot of players hate any change, even if it makes sense and is eventually seen by most as a good thing. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
438
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Posted - 2012.07.27 19:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bumping for those who did not see it yet. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
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