Originally by: Kismo

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Pretty much nothing is meant to support dual LST II's. Let's try a pair of armor RR fits and compare again?

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Originally by: Beverly Sparks

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Originally by: kessah

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Why is it we cant have more replies from CCP that involve testing in Close quarter, small gang pvp? instead of always 100+ man blob fleet warfare, case in point there decision to change the Scorpion to make it now more useless to those that would like to use it for the reasons in bold?

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It does not do 100 man blob warfare particularly well either. Not only do you do low damage with the lowest tracking and the worst range, you are also the most fragile BS on the field.

So it is not 100 man blobs they are basing this on either.

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Originally by: Elapidae

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isnt 10% RoF > 5% RoF + 5% damage? then use that + falloff bonus. I doubt its going to happen, CCP hates doing anything that isnt 5% or 7.5% per level

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Originally by: Ecky X

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TBH Bibbleibble, I don't know if it is better. I think Laing or someone else worked out with solid maths that ships with a faster RoF will be more effective in fleet fights, even if the DPS is the same - especially if you're overkilling on the target. Overkill = wasted damage = wasted dps.

Also, let's say a volley hits a ship, leaving it with (200hp). You have to wait another 15 seconds (or whatever your RoF is) in order to finish it off, while a ship that fires every 2 seconds will have removed that ship from the field far earlier.

Let's say you have a fleet of Tempests, vs a fleet of Apocs. Your Tempests may kill a ship in the first volley, but it's 15 seconds (using that as the RoF) before you can even fire at the 2nd ship. If the DPS is the same, the Apocs might have finished the ship off in their 3nd volley, and they would already be several volleys into the 2nd ship.


That said, I do think high alpha is a good niche for the Tempest, but it shouldn't sacrifice real dps to get that alpha.

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Originally by: Karl Luckner

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Originally by: Orakkus

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...

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Well, you provided your analysis, but no conclusion. I guess you think the Tempest should be active tanked, without plates or extenders and without armor/shield riggs to preserve it's advantages ?
Well, I already wrote it in the projectile weapons thread: the best fix would be in my opinion just to buff the damage modifier of projectile munitions to bring it in line with laser/hybrid lenses/charges.
Additionally, tracking enhancers/computers should effect falloff and a falloff script for the TC should be introduced.
If that is unsufficient, which of the following measures do you think should be considered ?
-Mass reduction
-change of slotlayout
-more turretslots
-larger dronebay
-more targetting range (reduced scan res ?)
-reduction in artillery fitting
-change of bonuses

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Originally by: CCP Zulupark

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Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this.

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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CCP have already said that they don't want to introduce falloff effecting things because of the Vagabond.

I know. It really does make little sense.

EDIT: Found the quote I mentioned:

Originally by: CCP Zulupark

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Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this.

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When was that comment from Zulupark made? Was it before or after the while speed nerf thing?

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Originally by: Hadrielloress

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Edited by: Hadrielloress on 01/08/2009 14:50:15
Not sure if anyone has already suggested this, how about giving the guns used on a tempest a Clip size bonus in addition to what it already has bonus wise.Each gun arty/auto gets 50% bonus to clip size.

Think of it as some special loading system only the tempest has. It should increase DPS etc.

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Originally by: FT Diomedes

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These fears of Vagabonds being overpowered by the changes to falloff are absurd. I think a lot of folks out there, including Zulupark, got molested by a Vagabond at some point. "Show us on the doll where the Vagabond touched you."

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Originally by: Beverly Sparks

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Originally by: Eli Porter

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Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 12:28:18
The Tempest is a very good fleet sniper boat. The damage type from Tremor is very important nowadays when everyone is armor tanking, and the huge Alpha is also very centric to any sniper BS fleet. You can get by with lower scan resolution than most(Apocalypse NEEDS high scan resolution to get the full use of their damage type, Tempest doesn't and its damage type actually encourages having lower scan resolution than most) and having the lowest base signature really helps out your survivability. Not to mention you aren't limited to your cap in long engagements. I made this fit which is DD tanked, and has equal DPS to the other snipers. However the only real disadvantage is the poor optimal. 140 optimal and a bit over 40 Faloff limits your range a bit(Sniper BS fleets usually want a 150-170 range), and if there's any change that's going to come to the Tempest, that's where I'd like to see it.

For those who want a short ranged Battleship, the Typhoon is right there for you(Though I agree the SP requirement is steep, but that's Minmatar for you.). And while I'm not a fan of the Maelstrom, many people adore it for its PvE capabilities.

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Low dps, low ehp, poor range, and bad tracking, and yet it is a good fleet sniper. I don't see it. I also don't understand how damage type and scan res are linked together. Explosive damage encourages low scan res, say what?

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Originally by: Eli Porter

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Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 15:51:17

Originally by: Beverly Sparks

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Low dps, low ehp, poor range, and bad tracking, and yet it is a good fleet sniper. I don't see it. I also don't understand how damage type and scan res are linked together. Explosive damage encourages low scan res, say what?

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DPS is not low. EHP is enough to DD tank (With the fit I posted anyway). Range is an issue. Tracking can be fixed by tracking computers which take the Sensor booster slot. While the Apocalypses lay down the EM damage to take out the shield, you will be finishing the lock and killing the armor with your Exp/Kin damage.

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Originally by: Eli Porter

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*Over 300 DPS. The Tempest fit I posted has 335(with All V).

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Originally by: Eli Porter

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*150-170km range. The Tempest fit I posted has 140km optimal +44km faloff. You can get 151km optimal if you switch the damage rig for a +optimal rig(DPS will be at 317).

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Originally by: Eli Porter

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*DD Tank. The Tempest fit I posted has that.

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Originally by: Eli Porter

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*Cap to last a good while. lolcap. When you're just sniping capitals, the Mega and Rokh, and some Apoc fits won't reach over the 6 minute marker unless they sacrifice their DPS for a cap stability rig(Like the Tempest does for a +optimal rig).

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Originally by: Eli Porter

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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That has unacceptably short range. Most FC I flew on last 1 year demans optimal OPTIMAL of 170 km. That setup gives 140 km optimal with only 20 km falloff more than a megatron.

But IF tempest coudl fit that setup without the RC then it could fit a TE and get almost on par. So another way to boost tempest into the sniper department woudl be to give it 15% more powergrid (woudl also enable it to fit Active tanks with high tier guns, that would make some value for the no cap crap)

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Yes you could also fit a locus coordinator instead of the damage rig(bringing the DPS under 300). Either way Large Projectiles need a buff.

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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Edited by: Bibbleibble on 03/08/2009 20:25:08
I was right!

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Bout what?

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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The link...

Its not important though. I'm reading through the whole thread right now and will perhaps post a summary of anything interesting latre.

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A far more informative thread was the "why should I train large artillery" thread. I'm seaching through the 400+ pages of Liang's posting history right now. W T F. I should pick another forum regular.

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Ohh, the days where I proposed optimal for autocannons.

Still a great idea, just far too ambitious.

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I still say moar falloff is the way to go. I'm not so sure about Bibble's idea for no optimal/all falloff artillery though. You just can't balance them at sniper ranges and up close, IMO.

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Originally by: Beverly Sparks

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Ohh, the days where I proposed optimal for autocannons.

Still a great idea, just far too ambitious.

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I still say moar falloff is the way to go. I'm not so sure about Bibble's idea for no optimal/all falloff artillery though. You just can't balance them at sniper ranges and up close, IMO.

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I had the exact same idea. I think it should be able to work that it does RF CL at long range and then fallow the falloff graph so that it is doing RF EMP damage at close range. Where this seems to fall down is when you introduce T2 ammo. I still think there must be a work around, I just haven't figured it out, nor have I really thought about it too much, since CCP has not even admitted that there is a problem.

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Originally by: Nikolay Tesla

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Alpha is worthless in sniper fleets, it's all about DPS

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Whatta hell are you talking about?

Alpha is the most important thing you need in sniper fleets.

Optimal sniper fleet one volleys it's target.

Close range ganking is all about DPS, not sniper fleets.

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: Nikolay Tesla

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I can't be bothered to do all the maths myself, but check out the link Kismo posted. You'll be sorely disappointed if you think alpha is superior to DPS in any way.

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LOL... You do not need math for that.


IF you have damage enough to one volley a target, then you are optimal sniper. If you need second volley, you are not. Simple as that.

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Originally by: HankMurphy

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: Guillame Herschel

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I think the Tempest would be just grand as the Minmatar Ewar BS, a counterpart to the Scorpion.

Same slot layout, but change the following:

3 turret, 5 missile hardpoints
10% Bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Velocity per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level

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Negatory, morning glory.

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First, i want to make it clear i would kill a random person on the street if this happened.


That said, this person has a point. The point being we have 2 arguments to discuss with the tempest,

Its weapons: Here we have delved into Autocannons, artillery and bears oh my. All valid arguments and a whole list of things that need looked at alone and separate.

The SHIP itself: Here we discuss slot layout, agility, etc all adding up to ITS ROLE IN COMBAT. When the tier 3 ships were released they were not to replace the tier 2 models, but both the abaddon and the mael stepped on the toes of the ships before them.

Here is where matar really got the shaft. If the tempest didn't have dual weapon bonuses it would have a role in combat, but E V E R Y T H I N G it does is done better by either the typhoon or the maelstrom, this is due to both its slot layout and the overall yesteryear idiology (?) of the ship.

(To compare to amarr, their 3 battleships all have basically the same slot layout and turret capabilities. I would think they are worse off if it wasn't for the fact lasers pwn and the super low slot action gives you a great armor tank every time. It is a 'dumb' line imo but all 3 ships do their job exceptionally.)

So what is the tempest good for? This is the question CCP should have to answer. Not all the other bull**** angles they look at it from, at the end of the day what is this ships job???

Guillame may have been naive or just joking, but he is more right that he knows, look at all the mids, obviously CCP wants the weakest ewar race to have a joke of an ewar battelship in it's lineup

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Originally by: Orakkus

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Just letting you know that we have CSM Larkonis Trassler looking at this issue right now, and he said he'll be writing something up for the upcoming CSM meeting on Aug. 9th.

Again, head on over to the Assembly Hall and indicate your support of a review of ACs, Artillery, and the Tempest thread found in that forum.. and feel free to make comments.

Maybe this time around, we can finally get necessary change. Also, be sure to thank Larkonis for his effort reviewing this issue.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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OH august 9th and 10th will see the largest "spam'of projectiles/ tempest complains of eve history!


I will prepare 200 posts in advance based on traditional complains and the most likely responses that other players might post. :P

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Originally by: Guillame Herschel

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Originally by: HankMurphy

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Guillame may have been naive or just joking, but he is more right that he knows, look at all the mids, obviously CCP wants the weakest ewar race to have a joke of an ewar battelship in it's lineup

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I wasn't really joking. You got my point exactly. As lame as my proposed Torp/Painter Tempest would be, it's still a pretty good improvement over the way it is now. I'd rather fly an effective turret Tempest, but I don't see how that can happen without making the other two Matari BS still better than the 'Pest.

So maybe it's time to "reboot" the 'Pest into a completely different role.

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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I had some ideas. The most simple would be role both the damage bonuses into a single 10% damage bonus and add a 10% falloff bonus.

Simple, quick and gives the Tempest a nice little role as the mid range projectile platform people have been asking for.

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Yeah, I'd take it. I don't mind the hit in fleet combat since I hate fleet combat anyway.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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For that to work it would need a upgrade of drone bay to at least 100M or the reduced base dps will nullify the boost.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Even so having the lowest damage of all bs with 2 damage bonus is meeehhhh tiny bonus to drone bay would not unbalance anything.

Of course if ac are boosted a bit on damage then this is not needed.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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People cannot see the forest for all the tree's. All those yoyo arguments are funny.

As someone who knows his sniping, Alpha and DPS matter for different situations. VS ships, Alpha matters.

If you are some kind of lame alliance who spends most of their time shooting non-cynojammed pos's in battleships insted of dreadnaughts, then I guess DPS would matter more.

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No, volley damage doesn't matter, especially once the fleets get of any decent size. This is true in "theory", and it has been true in practice as well. The only time I'd say alpha really matters is when you're looking to killmail ***** at a gate camp where you already outnumber the enemy 5 to 1.

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You are talking to one of the top 1% of snipers in eve. Look me up, trust me - I know what I am talking about.

People laughed at my DG fitted Rokhs - till they worked it out. They laughed at my Nightmare fit - till they worked it out. In fact, on these very forums they stated my Zealot sniper fit I suggested to someone was useless.

I decided to use that Zealot and it is still alive after over 300 kills, most of which when outnumbered.

Long story short. I know my sniping, but I do not see any sniping history for you. When I say Alpha matters, it does. Only time DPS>Alpha is when you are shooting pos, or have a dumb fc who wants 300 people to shoot a kestrel rather than co-ordinate fire.

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: Grimpak

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also how does higher alpha sucks for fleet combat?

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It isn't that alpha *sucks* for fleet combat, it's that it isn't worth trading DPS for alpha.

Think of two fleets composed of ships with exactly the same DPS, but one is high alpha and the other is high ROF (~4s ROF)

T0, Everyone fires, a couple of each side explode
T4, The ROF ships fire and a couple more of the high damage ships explode
T8, High damage and high ROF ships fire, and a couple explode on each side (ROF: -4, Dmg: -6)
T12, ROF fires, a couple more high damage ships explode (ROF: -4, Dmg: -8)
...
Eventually there is a large enough disparity in ship count that it becomes a clear and obvious rout.

This is a base generalisation, but it holds in theory and practice. The biggest question in fleet combat is DPS vs EHP as long as both sides have sufficient range.

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Originally by: Beverly Sparks

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Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/08/2009 20:48:11

Originally by: Bibbleibble

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Artillery is still a bit up in the air as to how it can be fixed. You either go the MOAR ALPHA!!!11111 route or the extra range route.

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Maybe a little bit of both blended with much more tracking, and some more DPS, with some cap usage, and locked Exp/Kin damage.

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Originally by: Orakkus

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Just to clarify:

Originally by: Ecky X

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Edited by: Ecky X on 04/08/2009 21:02:34
For Tempest:

Combine damage bonus, give falloff bonus. Perhaps slight boost to agility and velicity to taste.

For Projectiles:

Leave the tracking bad,

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Having a fast ship, but really bad tracking = not a good idea. Tends to be counterproductive.

Originally by: Ecky X

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change ammos to 2 range types, each with 4 damage-type variants.

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That's already the case, for example:
Proton L\EMP L = Both EMP ammos, Proton has extended range at a damage price, EMP has damage at a cost of range.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Well alpha strike IS useful. But just not VERY useful. It adds a startign advantage on the first shot that myust be chewed by the other ships trough time. No the capability of killing on first blow makes no difference sine simply does nos exist enough situation where a tempest would kill on first blow but an apoc would not.

The issue is the alpha advantage is automatically eliminated by the loss of dps from the frequent reloads of arties.

Alpha strike to be useful must be much more impressive. 25% extra HP from the HP boost, T2 ammo nerf plus the 50% extra HP from trimarks made alpha well very little impressive.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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Originally by: Beverly Sparks

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Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/08/2009 20:48:11

Originally by: Bibbleibble

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Artillery is still a bit up in the air as to how it can be fixed. You either go the MOAR ALPHA!!!11111 route or the extra range route.

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Maybe a little bit of both blended with much more tracking, and some more DPS, with some cap usage, and locked Exp/Kin damage.

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The way I thought of doing was giving it a massive boost in falloff with a reduction in optimal (we're talking about half the current optimal for 4 times the falloff with tremor). That makes it pretty easy to hit sniper ranges with a fair amount of damage.

The other change is two fold. I'd change tremor to give the same base damage as RF EMP, but give it a ROF penalty to keep it at the same level of DPS (60% would be about right). I'd also boost the damage mod to 24.43255 and increase the ROF to 25.5.

But that's just me, and I'm sure other people can come up with different (and quite possibly better) ways of fixing artillery.

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changing tremmor does nto cut it. Short range combat is also very very relevant. All changes to damage shoudl be on the weapon itself i think.


I prefer making ALL the fix on the weapons because the maesltrom needs a SLIGHT boost as well. (Check the laser MAelstrom vs AC maesltrom thread)

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Does nobody take math classes anymore? I swear, how many times has it been proven that alpha is worthless, nay, detrimental?

Don't worry though, he's ex BoB. He knows what he's doing.

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20 ships with 100k alpha pop a BS with 97k EHP. 20 ships with 50K alpha fail to kill a BS with 97k EHP because it warps out after the first salvo seeing as it was aligned and you hadn't got a bubble on it.

Keep on smacking from your position of ignorance Astro. When in doubt smack!

One thing I think people might not realise is how far below good a Tempest damage is. If you give a Tempest with AC's 10% extra damage it still won't be very good.

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Originally by: Yakov Draken

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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WTB sniper ship with 5k alpha strike.

A maelstrom with 5 damage mods and two Collision rigs will still only get 3866 alpha with Tremor (the ammo that is almost mandatory for sniping), and that is potentially the most unrealistic fit you will ever see.

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You are not getting the point due to your pedantry. I could have said 25 BS's - it doesn't matter. The point is when you enough Alpha you pop stuff - the numbers are purely numbers and you are being a pedant.

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Originally by: Ecky X

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Interesting. Since we can't see who /ragequit over what, we don't know how many issues were actually addressed because of this.

However, there are many cases where forum threadnaughts have succeeded in drawing attention to issues, so I vote we continue this one.

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Originally by: Ecky X

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Edited by: Ecky X on 05/08/2009 16:28:01
Something I posted on the previous page:

I like the idea of being able to change damage type instantly. If you could change from explosive to EM like Amarr can change range, that would be true versatility. Just make it so changing ammo types exchanges the volume of EMP left in the clip for the same volume of fusion; reloads would be sepparate.

Of course, that wouldn't fix the Tempest... but there are already a lot of very good suggestions on how to do that.

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Originally by: Orakkus

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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We've already got a member of the CSM bringing it up at the next meeting.

We really need to get a proposal about how the fix the Tempest, and the other Minmatar battleships/large projectiles, finished and then give it to CCP to read.

If nothing else, I personally would want a response from CCP about what role they envisage the Tempest doing that means that it is ok at the moment.

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I reviewed some of the information that Zulupark gave regarding his own fits in the forums.. and it seems that we will likely get more of the same regarding that its "fine". The reason being is that there does appear to be a fit that matches what Zulupark says, though you would need pretty much everything at Level V to get there. Basically, if you think of the Tempest as a much more skill intensive Typhoon, then you might have an idea of why Zulupark (and the Devs) think its fine.

Yes, you can get a Megathron like armor tank on the Tempest, with a Megathron like DPS, but its extremely close range, slow moving combat, using T2 Hail and having all your Gunnery, Ship Command, Armor, Drone, Engineering, Electronics related skills at level V. In other words, a 40+ Mil SP ship, just so you can match a 9+mil SP Gallente Pilot in a Mega. I dunno about you but I'm not a big fan of skilling up for two years only to find out that I JUST became equal to a 6 month old player because he chose Gallente, and I chose Minmatar.

The real tragety(sp?) is that because Zulupark has 170mil SP in Gallente and Minmatar specs, he has no idea that he is completely unqualified to judge whether this ship is "fine" or not. The same go for the rest of the Devs, all of whom probably have 150+mil SP characters they fly around in and not having to skill up any critical skills in years.

I do agree with Bibbleibble though, we need to start somewhere, whether its with the Tempest, or the Guns, or start at the beginning with the Ammo, and go step by step. So, where do we begin?

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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The full out tank/gank tempest is completely outpreformed by the phoon in every area.

The first change should be an increase in falloff for ACs.

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Originally by: Guillame Herschel

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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The first change should be an increase in falloff for ACs.

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ACs and Artillery should both get not only a boost to falloff range (double it), but should get a bonus to damage in falloff. Maybe that could be the change to the Tempest's dual damage bonus it needs.

5% bonus to Large Projectile Damage per level
10% reduction in Falloff Damage Reduction per level (worded in CCPs typical Engrish style)

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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The full out tank/gank tempest is completely outpreformed by the phoon in every area.

The first change should be an increase in falloff for ACs.

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So you want to push the Tempest into more of a mid range brawler type ship, rather than a pure ganking ship?

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I typed out a decent reply but the forums of course ate it.

Short answer: yes, because CCP won't change the phoon. The tempest needs to be more agile, faster, and acs need more falloff so they can be a good weapon system from 15-30km. The pest would make a much better midrange dps dealer and be much more effective at killing sub-bs classes.

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Originally by: Ecky X

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Edited by: Ecky X on 05/08/2009 20:18:25
That, and tier'd falloff for larger guns, I think. However the Tempest would still need at least a 10% damage per level bonus.


What do most people usually use when graphing these formulas? I was scratching my head in excel for 2 hours yesterday, trying to decide how to go about it.

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Originally by: Drek Grapper

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Edited by: AstroPhobic on 05/08/2009 22:06:42
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 05/08/2009 22:02:26
I'll assume you're talking about me, yakov. Personally I think the double damage bonus is fine, but autocannons themselves definitely need more falloff to do more dps at range. The fact is though and remains that minmatar has two double damage bonuses ships and the phoon fills and will always fill that role better than the pest simply due to bonuses torps and a full 125m3 of drones. A single extra (2 if you count the painter) mid on a pest isn't enough to differentiate itself from the phoon when looking at them as gang dps ships.

Speed, agility and the combination of the two utility highs and the utility meds will go a long way in seperating the pest from the phoon. There isn't really a favored anti-support bs at the moment and I think it would be a great spot to fill.

Ed: sorry about spelling/grammar, house floors are getting redone and the internet machine is packed away in a box somewhere, so typing on my phone. :/

Ed2: ecky, I don't think the amarr players understood that the 10% reduction of em resist on armor meant an increase of 25% em damage(!) on armor and an even larger 33% increase in em damage taken for minmatar ships.

$.02

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How is that? I'm curious...10% Em resist reduction = 25% damage increase. What am i not seeing here?

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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For those talking about a shield buffered gank tempest, here it is:

[Tempest, Lasers on a tempest]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Tracking Enhancer II

LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Bane Torpedo

Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I


Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1

Enjoy.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Edited by: AstroPhobic on 09/08/2009 22:01:12
[Maelstrom, Megapullllse]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Co-Processor II
Damage Control II

100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L

Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Core Defence Capacitor safeguard I


Valkyrie II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5

862 DPS at 15km


[Maelstrom, ACs]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II

100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Projectile Ambit Extension I
Projectile Ambit Extension I
Projectile Ambit Extension I


Hammerhead II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5


924 DPS at 3km.

Here's the kicker - where does the laserstrom start to outdamage the acstorm?

11km. Any range past 11km, the laserstrom does more damage. I don't mean a little bit more damage, I mean GOBS of damage. The mael with barrage will never outdamage the mael with pulse.


That is all.

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Originally by: Orakkus

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Originally by: Kismo

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Originally by: Presidio

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I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard.

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Dude! You're not allowed to reassert "It wins pretty hard" and then totally ignore my rebuttal to your initial assertion! But who am I kidding, you'll just say "LOL I DONT BELIEVE U" in some form or another. The Tempest *might* win the 140km battle (but I don't think so), but it damn sure loses the 160-180km sniper contest, even with RR.

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*secretly believes Presidio is Zulupark's alt...

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Originally by: Presidio

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Presidio

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slower, can't fit 2 in a carrier, not cap stable for pos bashes, less alpha, worst damage type for BSvBS sniper fleet engagements

just saying

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Did you ignore the past 17 pages or what?

Sorry, I can't deal with someone who goes "nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh". I tried to be civil.

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Which post disputes anything I said? show me?

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Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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So anyway, I hear the tempest is clearly the best battleship.V

Thoughts?

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Agreed I'm going to repackage my trimark rigged Phoons and buy 2 Pests for every 3 Phoons I sell.

It's worth it as they have less HP's, less DPS and less dronespace so obviously far superior!

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Originally by: Chestrano

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Edited by: Chestrano on 21/08/2009 16:38:42
Its not only the best BattleshipV Its the best shipV,+ there is for any situation due to the sails!

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