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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.12 00:40:00 -
[541]
Originally by: Presidio
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Presidio Overall I am of the opinion that large projectiles should be looked at, especially in the light of the falloff bug you provided. It wouldn't bother me if Tempest stayed the same though. This is coming from someone who uses Tempests. I think we have a far better chance demonstrating a case for 2nd look into projectiles than we do with Tempests.
It's quite obvious that projectiles need help, or at least the most pronounced at the larger sizes. I've always said fix projectiles first then look at the ships. That said, the tempest is overshadowed by both the mael or typhoon unless considering the extremely niche roles such as sniper fleets that use RR or pos bashing that happens >100km. Most people talk about the tempest in it's close range form - as artillery is quite dreadful and the maelstrom makes a better 150km/EHP fleet sniper.
I agree 100%
Isn't that nice, we can all get along. See, I'm not the big bad troll you make me out to be.
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Presidio
Minmatar General Patton's Plan
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Posted - 2009.08.12 00:44:00 -
[542]
Edited by: Presidio on 12/08/2009 00:45:50
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Presidio
I agree 100%
Isn't that nice, we can all get along. See, I'm not the big bad troll you make me out to be.
Well you presented your facts clearly with the citations provided. I got educated and we all win -
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.12 00:46:00 -
[543]
Now all that's left is getting a Dev response, eh?
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.12 01:17:00 -
[544]
This is all good so long as you understand the Tempest needs more damage not more fall off or any of the other ideas. More damage - lots more!
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.12 01:18:00 -
[545]
Originally by: Yakov Draken This is all good so long as you understand the Tempest needs more damage not more fall off or any of the other ideas. More damage - lots more!
More damage due to projectiles or more damage due to the ship itself?
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.12 01:20:00 -
[546]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Yakov Draken This is all good so long as you understand the Tempest needs more damage not more fall off or any of the other ideas. More damage - lots more!
More damage due to projectiles or more damage due to the ship itself?
The answer to that lies in how the Tempest stacks up against other ships that use the same guns.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.12 01:21:00 -
[547]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Yakov Draken This is all good so long as you understand the Tempest needs more damage not more fall off or any of the other ideas. More damage - lots more!
More damage due to projectiles or more damage due to the ship itself?
Who cares how it comes?
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.12 01:25:00 -
[548]
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Yakov Draken This is all good so long as you understand the Tempest needs more damage not more fall off or any of the other ideas. More damage - lots more!
More damage due to projectiles or more damage due to the ship itself?
Who cares how it comes?
The whines on the mael/phoon are going to be epic if autos get a raw damage boost. I can see it now "OMFG SOLO SHIP MAEL IS PWNSAUCE 2000DPS TANK AND 1300 DPS GANK LOOK@SETUP". "OMG THE PHOON IS ALREADY THE HIGHEST DAMAGE BS AND NOW U MAKE IT MORE LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE MOD SETUP".
Not saying they would be justified, but it may be enough for CCP to retract their boost.
I think the tempest needs a 7th turret, to start. I reaaaaallly really do. It's becoming pretty clear that it can't do anything with 6.
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.12 01:41:00 -
[549]
Originally by: AstroPhobic I think the tempest needs a 7th turret, to start. I reaaaaallly really do. It's becoming pretty clear that it can't do anything with 6.
I dread this fix. For serious gang usage I wouldn't fit a 7th gun if I could as I want two RR's. I don't want 1/6th extra gun damage in return for losing 1/2 my contribution to the gangs rep tank. This Tempest would have ok damage, a crap tank, and less utility.
What I would like to see is the damage bonus go from 5% to 7.5% and AC's to gain about 5% extra damage. I would then consider using a Tempest once again as it would have good damage and utility to make up for the crap tank.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.12 01:42:00 -
[550]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
The whines on the mael/phoon are going to be epic if autos get a raw damage boost. I can see it now "OMFG SOLO SHIP MAEL IS PWNSAUCE 2000DPS TANK AND 1300 DPS GANK LOOK@SETUP". "OMG THE PHOON IS ALREADY THE HIGHEST DAMAGE BS AND NOW U MAKE IT MORE LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE MOD SETUP".
Not saying they would be justified, but it may be enough for CCP to retract their boost.
I think the tempest needs a 7th turret, to start. I reaaaaallly really do. It's becoming pretty clear that it can't do anything with 6.
It would be a mistake to do that before fixing the guns themselves. If it came down to whether I want more falloff or more damage..... that's a really tough decision.
I don't know. The thing that kicks me in the nuts about autos is the crappy damage, but that's in part crappy "raw" damage and in part crappy raw damage "conversion". I don't really care how it happens, but something really must change.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.12 01:43:00 -
[551]
Originally by: Yakov Draken
Originally by: AstroPhobic I think the tempest needs a 7th turret, to start. I reaaaaallly really do. It's becoming pretty clear that it can't do anything with 6.
I dread this fix. For serious gang usage I wouldn't fit a 7th gun if I could as I want two RR's. I don't want 1/6th extra gun damage in return for losing 1/2 my contribution to the gangs rep tank. This Tempest would have ok damage, a crap tank, and less utility.
What I would like to see is the damage bonus go from 5% to 7.5% and AC's to gain about 5% extra damage. I would then consider using a Tempest once again as it would have good damage and utility to make up for the crap tank.
I don't see the tempest making a decent addition to an RR gang considering it's lackluster DPS (and range, for that matter) and EHP. The extra damage would help but you either drop enough damage mods to have a decent buffer or you're paper thin.
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.12 01:54:00 -
[552]
Edited by: Yakov Draken on 12/08/2009 01:56:44
Originally by: AstroPhobic I don't see the tempest making a decent addition to an RR gang considering it's lackluster DPS (and range, for that matter) and EHP. The extra damage would help but you either drop enough damage mods to have a decent buffer or you're paper thin.
What? Astro sometimes even NightmareX is right - the Tempest is at its best in RR gangs which really struggle to fit enough tackle along with everything else.
Right now it is a mediocre RR gang BS but with extra damage (that is what we were talking about right?) its' 5 mid slots really comes to the fore. Also capless weapons really matter in RR gangs (believe it!), and a Tempest gets damage on fast enough. Some of the key things to bring to RR gangs are 2 large RR's, ECCM, MWD, and a heavy cap booster - the Tempest loses nothing to bring them and can run the 2 RR's comfortably. This is a Tempests strength.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.12 02:08:00 -
[553]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 12/08/2009 02:15:24 ed: Meh. I give up.
IMO tempest should be to hurricane as abaddon is to harby.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.12 03:21:00 -
[554]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Kismo
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Yakov Draken This is all good so long as you understand the Tempest needs more damage not more fall off or any of the other ideas. More damage - lots more!
More damage due to projectiles or more damage due to the ship itself?
Who cares how it comes?
The whines on the mael/phoon are going to be epic if autos get a raw damage boost. I can see it now "OMFG SOLO SHIP MAEL IS PWNSAUCE 2000DPS TANK AND 1300 DPS GANK LOOK@SETUP". "OMG THE PHOON IS ALREADY THE HIGHEST DAMAGE BS AND NOW U MAKE IT MORE LOOK AT MY 6 DAMAGE MOD SETUP".
See, that's the sad part. If you gave a flat +20% Damage boost to ACs, a T2 fit Maelstrom still couldn't break 1000 DPS. It would actually still fall below the Abaddon's Mega Pulse damage curve beyond 7km, and just barely have an advantage inside of that. (Though yes, the Typhoon would now be the undisputed king of LOLfits.)
I wish I could make graphs that modeled the loss in hit quality while still showing the effects of tracking, but this is the best I've got. If you're interested in these, I suggest you have images turned on. Red = Min, Green = Gallente, Blue = Amarr.
Close-range turrets as they currently are: (comparing single-bonus, 8-turret ships, no damage mods, T1 ammo)
Here they are again with a ~20% boost to Projectiles:
I don't know if I'd recommend that percent of boost exactly, but it shows that it takes something drastic to make them comparable. Using your awesome ability to change damage types puts you fully within the curve of lasers (which I would argue is fair).
I said it earlier in more colorful terms, but buffing ACs by giving them more falloff just wouldn't work if the damage stayed the same. It would mean you'd have to fight lasers by outranging them, outside of Disruptor range, which is wrong on more levels than I can count.
This would be a highly inaccurate graph of ACs with ~20% more falloff, not accounting for the mess that is hit quality reduction:
As for long range weapons, I just have no idea what would fix this... (Again, comparing 8-turret ships, but now with T2 sniper ammo, and switching the Abaddon for the Apoc, which should theoretically make the damage curve more fair):
In any case, I agree with you Astro that something has to be done, but I'm finding myself more and more on the side of a flat damage boost.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.12 03:36:00 -
[555]
And not to **** in anyone's Wheaties...but I can see my long range graph coming under fire as being unrealistic ship selections. Here's a graph using a Pest, Mega, and Apoc, and long range ammo. No damage or range extension mods. The apoc is only using 7 turrets. Same colors as before.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.12 03:52:00 -
[556]
Cripes Bored, you're going to make me put a decent UI on this thing and release it aren't you.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.12 03:59:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Kismo Cripes Bored, you're going to make me put a decent UI on this thing and release it aren't you.
That would be awesome.
Though if you could get Gripen to use the correct damage formula in EFT, we'd all be better off.
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Kismo
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Posted - 2009.08.12 04:17:00 -
[558]
Edited by: Kismo on 12/08/2009 04:17:43
Originally by: Seriously Bored
That would be awesome.
Though if you could get Gripen to use the correct damage formula in EFT, we'd all be better off.
I like to think mine's more interesting. It lets you play "What if..." It's also truly multi platform (developed via git on linux/windows) ;-)
It's also feature-poor. Normally because I have to write the support for every little thing I want to know.
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.12 04:44:00 -
[559]
So back on track it seems large projectiles need about 20% extra damage. I was only looking at the Tempest but if +20% works for the Maelstrom as well then cool. The incredible thing is that looking at Tempest fits adding 20% gun damage still leaves them mediocre in terms of gank plus tank. This should be ok when combined with 5 mids, capless weapons, 2 utility highs, and ammo switching.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.08.12 04:49:00 -
[560]
Edited by: Psiri on 12/08/2009 04:51:15
Originally by: Yakov Draken So back on track it seems large projectiles need about 20% extra damage. I was only looking at the Tempest but if +20% works for the Maelstrom as well then cool. The incredible thing is that looking at Tempest fits adding 20% gun damage still leaves them mediocre in terms of gank plus tank. This should be ok when combined with 5 mids, capless weapons, 2 utility highs, and ammo switching.
20% more falloff, not damage. Using the traits of projectiles that will translate into more damage anyway. AC's are not s'posed to be blasters, as for blasters they need 20% more tracking.
Tempests aren't, have never been nor should be Megathrons. They've got the most speed and utility of all battleships around, expecting a 5mid minmatar BS speed Mega is asking for a bit much, no?
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.12 05:17:00 -
[561]
Originally by: Psiri 20% more falloff, not damage. Using the traits of projectiles that will translate into more damage anyway. AC's are not s'posed to be blasters, as for blasters they need 20% more tracking.
Tempests aren't, have never been nor should be Megathrons. They've got the most speed and utility of all battleships around, expecting a 5mid minmatar BS speed Mega is asking for a bit much, no?
Check the damage - it is not that great with +20%. With +20% fall-off it remains a joke. With +20% damage you still do less damage than Mega plus less tank so you arn't a straight gank/tank ship like the Mega. It won't be like a Mega but it will deal solid damage.
Almost every comparision of a Mega vs whatever ignores the Mega's second bonus. The Mega is the best up close damage dealer, in theory and practice, because of raw damage plus tracking.
Bottom line is the Tempest is a double damage bonus ship with only 6 lows. Either it does good damage (which it isn't close to right now) or it sucks. Stop trying to make the Tempest into something else - go with the logic of its bonus's and make it a damage dealer. This should be obvious.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.12 05:49:00 -
[562]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 12/08/2009 05:53:11
Originally by: Psiri
20% more falloff, not damage. Using the traits of projectiles that will translate into more damage anyway. AC's are not s'posed to be blasters, as for blasters they need 20% more tracking.
Tempests aren't, have never been nor should be Megathrons. They've got the most speed and utility of all battleships around, expecting a 5mid minmatar BS speed Mega is asking for a bit much, no?
As Yakov above me said, you should think through this. Try re-enabling your images and taking a look at the +20% falloff graph above. (And the others, while you're at it.)
Just adding falloff means you have to fight other ships at ranges at which you do pitiful damage, and no amount of falloff will fix that. It means that you have to fight close to or outside Disruptor range, which is unacceptable for ACs. With a decent damage boost, ACs fit nicely in between Blasters and Pulses, having to move in between ranges to fight one ship or the other, and without stepping on one system or the other's toes.
As for the Tempest, it would still be a confusing, unfocussed ship. No Large Projectile boost will fix that. But it might make it so that it's "versatility" is attractive once again, if it can deal fairly decent damage while still doing three other things.
EDIT: For those of you still shy about a damage boost: With +20% damage, ACs still do equal or less damage than Pulses, much less Blasters. It just shows how busted they currently are.
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To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2009.08.12 12:20:00 -
[563]
make tracking enhancer and tracking comp give a bonus to falloff in the same way they do to optimal.
autocannon need their damage output boosted between laser and blaster and falloff to scale with the tier of the gun.
do this and minmatar BS will be fine for short range.
artillery need its alpha advantage back + falloff to scale with the tier of the gun.
this will fix minmatar BS for long range
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.12 12:32:00 -
[564]
If that damage calculation model is correct that pretty much is the most important issue to be pressed upon CCP on the game balance. All the falloff theory and tracking theories go down dramatically to bottom of ocean.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.12 14:53:00 -
[565]
Originally by: Seishi Maru If that damage calculation model is correct that pretty much is the most important issue to be pressed upon CCP on the game balance. All the falloff theory and tracking theories go down dramatically to bottom of ocean.
afaik those graphs don't account for hit quality so it's actually a little bit worse than that
I'm down for whatever boost ya'll can pull through. Anything that boosts projectiles, I support.
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.12 21:39:00 -
[566]
Originally by: Seriously Bored With a decent damage boost, ACs fit nicely in between Blasters and Pulses, . . .
As for the Tempest, it would still be a confusing, unfocussed ship. No Large Projectile boost will fix that. But it might make it so that it's "versatility" is attractive once again, if it can deal fairly decent damage while still doing three other things.
EDIT: For those of you still shy about a damage boost: With +20% damage, ACs still do equal or less damage than Pulses, much less Blasters. It just shows how busted they currently are.
This to me summerizes the conclusions of this thread. It is amazing we have got this much clarity - thanks to all who contributed. Now we need to take it to the Assembly Hall and keep it on the front page for as long as we can.
I was looking at making a post in Assembly but I think you should Seriously Bored - put your graphs up and all. PM me in game if you do and I'll mobilize all the support I can as I really care about this issue as do a number of my corpmates.
I have over 200 kills in a Tempest, for 2 losses, and yet as things stand I will never fly this ship again. The Tempest is inferior to another ship for ever task I can find. I want to fly the Tempest, it fits my implants much better than the Phooon I now fly, I actually like the funky slot layout, and it is the best looking pirate BS there is. But I fly the best ship for the job and right now, for low sec, that is never the Tempest.
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp
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Posted - 2009.08.12 21:55:00 -
[567]
Already there...
Assembly Hall Thread
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.12 21:58:00 -
[568]
Originally by: Orakkus Already there...
Assembly Hall Thread
Not clear enough imo. We need a thread specifically asking for a straight damage increase, +20% looks about right, as most of the others ideas for fixing the Tempest are really bad - like the 7th gun slot one which doesn't fix the problem it just changes it.
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Aranis Nax
Minmatar Seraphim Blades
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Posted - 2009.08.13 00:35:00 -
[569]
all a straight damage boost is gonna do is benefit amarr ships. Suddenly the horribly crap default damage(without bonuses) isn't that bad anymore giving amarr ok damage for no cap if they choose to use cap for something else(like active armor tanking). I think a falloff increase would be a better way to go, giving autocannons as much falloff as lasers have optimal would be a start. Perhaps something like 24km for d425, 27km for d650 and 30km for 800mm
For specifically the Tempest I wanna see a versatility increase, by adding a midslot, make it 7-6-6. If one would want to retain previous ability of 2 utility highs could reduce max turrets to 5 and increase the rate of fire bonus to 7.5%. Gives it the same dps as previously with 6. Anyway, a 2nd midslot would definately be interesting for getting a more viable shield tanking pest(5mids is just not enough) and you have 2 extra mids to use beyond the "standard" 4 mids(MWD, scram, web, injector) with an armor tanking Tempest.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.13 01:09:00 -
[570]
Originally by: Aranis Nax all a straight damage boost is gonna do is benefit amarr ships. Suddenly the horribly crap default damage(without bonuses) isn't that bad anymore giving amarr ok damage for no cap if they choose to use cap for something else(like active armor tanking). I think a falloff increase would be a better way to go, giving autocannons as much falloff as lasers have optimal would be a start. Perhaps something like 24km for d425, 27km for d650 and 30km for 800mm
A falloff bonus doesn't work because autocannons then (and now) only have a zone of superiority where they are already losing nearly all of their damage due to falloff. You're not suggesting we make autocannons the the longest range of the close-range guns, are you?
Also, autocannons and artillery do not have any damage type choice with their long range ammo.
Originally by: Aranis Nax For specifically the Tempest I wanna see a versatility increase, by adding a midslot, make it 7-6-6. If one would want to retain previous ability of 2 utility highs could reduce max turrets to 5 and increase the rate of fire bonus to 7.5%. Gives it the same dps as previously with 6. Anyway, a 2nd midslot would definately be interesting for getting a more viable shield tanking pest(5mids is just not enough) and you have 2 extra mids to use beyond the "standard" 4 mids(MWD, scram, web, injector) with an armor tanking Tempest.
I'd like that slot layout change tbh, but it would still deal the lowest damage with the worst tank of any BS (sans scorpion).
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