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Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.08.01 08:58:00 -
[211]
The Tempest does indeed suck. I have over 200 kills in a Tempest in small gang combat and I've made the best of it. Yes you can kill stuff and there are some decent fits. But it sucks in comparision to other BS's so once I had the skills for a Typhoon the Tempest becomes meh. I've used the Tempest for many different things but with a good amount of skill points I can always find something better than a Tempest for a job.
A double damage bonus ship should do good damage!
There is nothing wrong with the slot layout or bonus's of a Tempest. The idea is fine - a gun boat with 2 utlility slots. It is just the damage and tank combo is bad.
To work a Tempest with max skills needs to do a lot more damage. The only way to justify a ship like this is too have high damage.
Oh yeah and "primary Tempest!"
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Karl Luckner
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Posted - 2009.08.01 10:21:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Orakkus ...
Well, you provided your analysis, but no conclusion. I guess you think the Tempest should be active tanked, without plates or extenders and without armor/shield riggs to preserve it's advantages ? Well, I already wrote it in the projectile weapons thread: the best fix would be in my opinion just to buff the damage modifier of projectile munitions to bring it in line with laser/hybrid lenses/charges. Additionally, tracking enhancers/computers should effect falloff and a falloff script for the TC should be introduced. If that is unsufficient, which of the following measures do you think should be considered ? -Mass reduction -change of slotlayout -more turretslots -larger dronebay -more targetting range (reduced scan res ?) -reduction in artillery fitting -change of bonuses
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.01 10:27:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Bibbleibble on 01/08/2009 10:28:56
Originally by: Karl Luckner
Originally by: Orakkus ...
Well, you provided your analysis, but no conclusion. I guess you think the Tempest should be active tanked, without plates or extenders and without armor/shield riggs to preserve it's advantages ? Well, I already wrote it in the projectile weapons thread: the best fix would be in my opinion just to buff the damage modifier of projectile munitions to bring it in line with laser/hybrid lenses/charges. Additionally, tracking enhancers/computers should effect falloff and a falloff script for the TC should be introduced. If that is unsufficient, which of the following measures do you think should be considered ? -Mass reduction -change of slotlayout -more turretslots -larger dronebay -more targetting range (reduced scan res ?) -reduction in artillery fitting -change of bonuses
CCP have already said that they don't want to introduce falloff effecting things because of the Vagabond.
I know. It really does make little sense.
EDIT: Found the quote I mentioned:
Originally by: CCP Zulupark Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this.
________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Otebski
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Posted - 2009.08.01 11:44:00 -
[214]
Possible fix: 7 guns. replace rof bonus with 5% armor resist improve base armor or swap one mid to low.
This would give pest a place in RR gangs and allow fitting some extra gyros while armor tanking.
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Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2009.08.01 12:19:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
CCP have already said that they don't want to introduce falloff effecting things because of the Vagabond.
I know. It really does make little sense.
EDIT: Found the quote I mentioned:
Originally by: CCP Zulupark Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this.
When was that comment from Zulupark made? Was it before or after the while speed nerf thing?
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.01 13:09:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Nian Banks
Originally by: Bibbleibble
CCP have already said that they don't want to introduce falloff effecting things because of the Vagabond.
I know. It really does make little sense.
EDIT: Found the quote I mentioned:
Originally by: CCP Zulupark Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this.
When was that comment from Zulupark made? Was it before or after the while speed nerf thing?
November 2008. I think that was after the speed nerf, or when the speed nerf was in testing. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.01 14:34:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Bibbleibble Edited by: Bibbleibble on 01/08/2009 10:28:56
Originally by: Karl Luckner
Originally by: Orakkus ...
Well, you provided your analysis, but no conclusion. I guess you think the Tempest should be active tanked, without plates or extenders and without armor/shield riggs to preserve it's advantages ? Well, I already wrote it in the projectile weapons thread: the best fix would be in my opinion just to buff the damage modifier of projectile munitions to bring it in line with laser/hybrid lenses/charges. Additionally, tracking enhancers/computers should effect falloff and a falloff script for the TC should be introduced. If that is unsufficient, which of the following measures do you think should be considered ? -Mass reduction -change of slotlayout -more turretslots -larger dronebay -more targetting range (reduced scan res ?) -reduction in artillery fitting -change of bonuses
CCP have already said that they don't want to introduce falloff effecting things because of the Vagabond.
I know. It really does make little sense.
EDIT: Found the quote I mentioned:
Originally by: CCP Zulupark Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this.
ZULUPARk read this. complete BULL****! The zealot has the range of its pulse guns affected by trackign enahncer and track computers! So cut that crap.
You sir has no idea what you are doing in your job!
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Hadrielloress
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Posted - 2009.08.01 14:50:00 -
[218]
Edited by: Hadrielloress on 01/08/2009 14:50:15 Not sure if anyone has already suggested this, how about giving the guns used on a tempest a Clip size bonus in addition to what it already has bonus wise.Each gun arty/auto gets 50% bonus to clip size.
Think of it as some special loading system only the tempest has. It should increase DPS etc.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.01 14:55:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Hadrielloress Edited by: Hadrielloress on 01/08/2009 14:50:15 Not sure if anyone has already suggested this, how about giving the guns used on a tempest a Clip size bonus in addition to what it already has bonus wise.Each gun arty/auto gets 50% bonus to clip size.
Think of it as some special loading system only the tempest has. It should increase DPS etc.
It could work, but you would have to drop a damage bonus for it ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.01 14:55:00 -
[220]
Somehow I don't think CCP realizes that in order to fit a TE/TC, the vagabond would have to drop another mod. Either half of it's buffer (makes it paper), or a gyro (effectively cancels out any dps boost with falloff), or a nano (might as well fly a nanocane?). Honestly this is pure idiocy at best, and for CCP to say "Ewwww more falloff?" just makes me lose hope for any changes at all. Way to go CCP, your forum base has more of a clue about balancing than your balancing team.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.08.01 16:19:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: CCP Zulupark Artillery: Having scripts for falloff would be pretty cool for the tempest specifically but when you think about how it could affect Vagabonds with AC's I start getting a little scared. All ships don't have to be completely uniform and have the same ranges, that would be boring. Having said that however we need to look into this.
This really is a joke. So the Apoc using short range weapons for huge damage at 91km is ok, but a vagabond being able to do crap damage at 45k would be OP'd. The zealot can reach 45km doing more then twice the damage, and that's ok too.
Not to mention, tracking disruptors can totally destroy AC's effective range, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, but that also ok. But a lowish damage, medium range, high speed Hac would be OP.
Bah!
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Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp
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Posted - 2009.08.01 16:25:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Karl Luckner
Originally by: Orakkus ...
Well, you provided your analysis, but no conclusion. I guess you think the Tempest should be active tanked, without plates or extenders and without armor/shield riggs to preserve it's advantages ? Well, I already wrote it in the projectile weapons thread: the best fix would be in my opinion just to buff the damage modifier of projectile munitions to bring it in line with laser/hybrid lenses/charges. Additionally, tracking enhancers/computers should effect falloff and a falloff script for the TC should be introduced. If that is unsufficient, which of the following measures do you think should be considered ? -Mass reduction -change of slotlayout -more turretslots -larger dronebay -more targetting range (reduced scan res ?) -reduction in artillery fitting -change of bonuses
Well, I was of the mind that things were starting to get lost in the shuffle. And to be honest.. the problem was so complex that at the time.. I didn't have a solution. Two things really made the Tempest poor. Tech 2 modules, and Rigs. Tech 2 modules pushed everyone into what was the "Sniper" realm of the Tempest as well as made tanks that much more unbreakable. Then came the HP bonus which really made things much worse for the Tempest. Rigs, since alot of their bonuses are percentage based, penalize the Tempest/Projectiles again because they have the worst stats in general.
I would suggest the following: - Boost Minmatar Projectile Ammo by 10% to get it back in line with other ammo. I would also specifically change any minmatar ammo that is divided up three ways back down to two (EMP would just be EMP/Kinetic, not EMP/Explosive/Kinetic for example). Also, minmatar Ammo should have their individual sizes reduced, so as to fit more in a clip. - All ACs/Artillery get a 10% increase in ROF - Tempest should have its mass reduced back down to that of other battleships, say 98,000,000kg to bring it back along side the rest of the Tier 2 battleships. - Move a low slot into the highs (this will allow folks to put on a respectable passive shield tank as s well as tackle, or a strong passive shield tank, or a respectable Active shield tank with Tackle).
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
FT Diomedes
Gallente Factio Paucorum
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Posted - 2009.08.01 16:57:00 -
[223]
These fears of Vagabonds being overpowered by the changes to falloff are absurd. I think a lot of folks out there, including Zulupark, got molested by a Vagabond at some point. "Show us on the doll where the Vagabond touched you."
...this doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.01 19:11:00 -
[224]
Originally by: FT Diomedes These fears of Vagabonds being overpowered by the changes to falloff are absurd. I think a lot of folks out there, including Zulupark, got molested by a Vagabond at some point. "Show us on the doll where the Vagabond touched you."
Its an unintended side-effect of being an extremely good ship.
Its still stupid of CCP to hold off giving Minmatar battleships a real review because of a cruiser hull. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.08.01 19:46:00 -
[225]
Bump. Tempest needs a role. As a nanopilot I'd like to see it zoomzoom. Sniping with alpha would be fine. There are other options that would work. Poor short range bs with mediocre buffer, dps, and some utility mids and highs doesn't work.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.08.02 13:19:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: FT Diomedes These fears of Vagabonds being overpowered by the changes to falloff are absurd. I think a lot of folks out there, including Zulupark, got molested by a Vagabond at some point. "Show us on the doll where the Vagabond touched you."
Its an unintended side-effect of being an extremely good ship.
Its still stupid of CCP to hold off giving Minmatar battleships a real review because of a cruiser hull.
also that prooves how much he doe snto understand eve players minds. He fail to see basically no onewould drop a shield extender to get a tracking computer for 15% extra falloff.
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Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:52:00 -
[227]
well we need to keep this discussion alive. Last time when APOC was the oen with a huge thread of 23 pages it got boosted. LEts keep the pressure.
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Nydia Carver
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Posted - 2009.08.02 22:03:00 -
[228]
[Tempest, PVP Small Gang] Medium Nano Armor Repair Unit I Small 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Nanofiber Internal Structure II Type-E Altered SS Nanofiber Structure 'Aura' Warp Core Stabilizer I Local Hull Conversion Overdrive Injector I
Posse Invulnerability Field Small 'Settler' Shield Booster Small Neutron Saturation Injector I Small Converse I Deflection Catalyzer Small Neutron Saturation Injector I
'Ballista' Tachyon Beam Laser I, Multifrequency L 'Ballista' Tachyon Beam Laser I, Multifrequency L 'Ballista' Tachyon Beam Laser I, Multifrequency L 'Ballista' Tachyon Beam Laser I, Multifrequency L 'Ballista' Tachyon Beam Laser I, Multifrequency L 'Ballista' Tachyon Beam Laser I, Multifrequency L Improved 'Guise' Cloaking Device II 'Recusant' Hostile Targeting Array I
Stasis Drone Augmentor II Stasis Drone Augmentor II Stasis Drone Augmentor II
Acolyte I x1 Hobgoblin I x1 Hornet I x1 Warrior I x1 Civilian Mining Drone x1 Wasp EC-900 x1 Praetor EV-900 x1
As you see, the Tempest can handle any task that u can possible imagine. Nothing wrong with tempest.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.02 22:05:00 -
[229]
Wow, that fit does more damage than artillery too!
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kessah
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 02:38:00 -
[230]
This ship clearly shows alot of controversy. It seems from all the posts that...
Either CCP tells us how to play the game with the Tempest, (alot to ask from people that probably play the game only in 'work hours')
Tests things better because (tbh id like to know how CCP actually tests personally).
OR it boosts Matari Large Autocannons/Tempest in some way that competes with the other Races in this Tier group.
I dont like to deal in absolutes but tbh i and other want anwsers, 6 years of indirect nerfs make the Tempest require attention. As they have said, 50% of there work force on new content 50% on balancing... Prove it CCP balance/test this ship as we play the game.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.03 10:42:00 -
[231]
I say that we bump this thread until we get a dev response explaining why the Tempest is ok, in more words than just
"I can gank noobs in in so it must be fine!" ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.03 11:46:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Bibbleibble I say that we bump this thread until we get a dev response explaining why the Tempest is ok, in more words than just
"I can gank noobs in in so it must be fine!"
Agreed. I'm thinking the past few weeks have not been the best time to demand attention, with the isk farmer problems, and all of the forum spammers.
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Eli Porter
Amarr Altruism. Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:25:00 -
[233]
Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 12:28:18 The Tempest is a very good fleet sniper boat. The damage type from Tremor is very important nowadays when everyone is armor tanking, and the huge Alpha is also very centric to any sniper BS fleet. You can get by with lower scan resolution than most(Apocalypse NEEDS high scan resolution to get the full use of their damage type, Tempest doesn't and its damage type actually encourages having lower scan resolution than most) and having the lowest base signature really helps out your survivability. Not to mention you aren't limited to your cap in long engagements. I made this fit which is DD tanked, and has equal DPS to the other snipers. However the only real disadvantage is the poor optimal. 140 optimal and a bit over 40 Faloff limits your range a bit(Sniper BS fleets usually want a 150-170 range), and if there's any change that's going to come to the Tempest, that's where I'd like to see it.
[Tempest, Fleet Sniper] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Projectile Collision Accelerator I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
For those who want a short ranged Battleship, the Typhoon is right there for you(Though I agree the SP requirement is steep, but that's Minmatar for you.). And while I'm not a fan of the Maelstrom, many people adore it for its PvE capabilities.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:30:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Eli Porter The Tempest is a very good fleet sniper boat.
No, it's not.
Quote: The damage type from Tremor is very important nowadays when everyone is armor tanking, and the huge Alpha is also very centric to any sniper BS fleet.
You mean like those armor tanking Rokhs? Alpha is worthless in sniper fleets, it's all about DPS
Quote: blah blah blah
The tempest is a worse sniper than the maelstrom, which is easily worse than the megathron, apoc, and rokh. So no, it's crap.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:42:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Eli Porter Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 12:28:18 The Tempest is a very good fleet sniper boat. The damage type from Tremor is very important nowadays when everyone is armor tanking, and the huge Alpha is also very centric to any sniper BS fleet. You can get by with lower scan resolution than most(Apocalypse NEEDS high scan resolution to get the full use of their damage type, Tempest doesn't and its damage type actually encourages having lower scan resolution than most) and having the lowest base signature really helps out your survivability. Not to mention you aren't limited to your cap in long engagements. I made this fit which is DD tanked, and has equal DPS to the other snipers. However the only real disadvantage is the poor optimal. 140 optimal and a bit over 40 Faloff limits your range a bit(Sniper BS fleets usually want a 150-170 range), and if there's any change that's going to come to the Tempest, that's where I'd like to see it.
For those who want a short ranged Battleship, the Typhoon is right there for you(Though I agree the SP requirement is steep, but that's Minmatar for you.). And while I'm not a fan of the Maelstrom, many people adore it for its PvE capabilities.
Low dps, low ehp, poor range, and bad tracking, and yet it is a good fleet sniper. I don't see it. I also don't understand how damage type and scan res are linked together. Explosive damage encourages low scan res, say what?
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Eli Porter
Amarr Altruism. Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:48:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 15:55:09
Quote: You mean like those armor tanking Rokhs? Alpha is worthless in sniper fleets, it's all about DPS
Rokhs being the only shield tanking sniper boat(and the odd Maelstrom and Tempest) + I'd say it's safe to say Megathrons and Apocalypses are the vast majority of sniper boats out there. Alpha IS important depending on your fleet size. DPS? Tempest can reach that just fine, and it doesn't use cap. Range is still an issue though(Which IMO should be fixed by either buffing large artillery range or adding Falloff bonus to TE+TC's).
Quote: The tempest is a worse sniper than the maelstrom, which is easily worse than the megathron, apoc, and rokh. So no, it's crap.
I agree Maelstrom is a better sniper(by a bit), but imo the cost is too high compared + the sig radius on a shield tanked Maelstrom is terribad(enough time to warp out when getting primaried is important).
The damage type+no cap is what gives the Tempest and Maelstrom the "not crap" card in my book.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:48:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
Originally by: Eli Porter Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 12:28:18 The Tempest is a very good fleet sniper boat. The damage type from Tremor is very important nowadays when everyone is armor tanking, and the huge Alpha is also very centric to any sniper BS fleet. You can get by with lower scan resolution than most(Apocalypse NEEDS high scan resolution to get the full use of their damage type, Tempest doesn't and its damage type actually encourages having lower scan resolution than most) and having the lowest base signature really helps out your survivability. Not to mention you aren't limited to your cap in long engagements. I made this fit which is DD tanked, and has equal DPS to the other snipers. However the only real disadvantage is the poor optimal. 140 optimal and a bit over 40 Faloff limits your range a bit(Sniper BS fleets usually want a 150-170 range), and if there's any change that's going to come to the Tempest, that's where I'd like to see it.
For those who want a short ranged Battleship, the Typhoon is right there for you(Though I agree the SP requirement is steep, but that's Minmatar for you.). And while I'm not a fan of the Maelstrom, many people adore it for its PvE capabilities.
Low dps, low ehp, poor range, and bad tracking, and yet it is a good fleet sniper. I don't see it. I also don't understand how damage type and scan res are linked together. Explosive damage encourages low scan res, say what?
I think what he means is that the Apoc needs to lock on to hit shields, whilst the Tempest needs to lock later to hit armour.
It doesn't make up for the limited range and EHP of the Tempest, and it is not helped by the Alpha of the Tempest still being far too small to make up for the low DPS. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Eli Porter
Amarr Altruism. Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:50:00 -
[238]
Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 15:51:17
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
Low dps, low ehp, poor range, and bad tracking, and yet it is a good fleet sniper. I don't see it. I also don't understand how damage type and scan res are linked together. Explosive damage encourages low scan res, say what?
DPS is not low. EHP is enough to DD tank (With the fit I posted anyway). Range is an issue. Tracking can be fixed by tracking computers which take the Sensor booster slot. While the Apocalypses lay down the EM damage to take out the shield, you will be finishing the lock and killing the armor with your Exp/Kin damage.
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AstroPhobic
Divine Retribution
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:56:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Eli Porter Rokhs being the only shield tanking sniper boat(and the odd Maelstrom and Tempest) + I'd say it's safe to say Megathrons and Apocalypses are the vast majority of sniper boats out there. Alpha IS important depending on your fleet size. DPS? Tempest can reach that just fine, and it doesn't use cap. Range is still an issue though(Which IMO should be fixed by either buffing large artillery range or adding Falloff bonus to TE+TC's).
Rokhs are about tied with the apoc in the best sniper boat category, and even t1 nobs can fly them so I'd think they'd represent a rather large majority. Alpha is important... in a 5 on 5, but anything even 20+ and it becomes worthless. The tempest has one of the lowest DPS of the sniper boats and has crap range and crap EHP. Given the fact that sniper boats must fire at 150km (sometimes 180km) with maximum DPS and EHP, the tempest is a very poor choice.
Quote: I agree Maelstrom is a better sniper(by a bit), but imo the cost is too high compared + the sig radius on a shield tanked Maelstrom is terribad(enough time to warp out when getting primaried is important).
The damage type+no cap is what gives the Tempest and Maelstrom the "not crap" card in my book.
The damage type has its uses but the rest of the package isn't enough to even justify using over any of the other races' boats. No cap is cute and all but rarely an issue at all. If the laser boats took a "time out" every time 1400s reloaded, I'd venture a guess that they'd be cap stable and still do buckets more DPS at higher ranges and much higher EHP.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:00:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Eli Porter Edited by: Eli Porter on 03/08/2009 15:51:17
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
Low dps, low ehp, poor range, and bad tracking, and yet it is a good fleet sniper. I don't see it. I also don't understand how damage type and scan res are linked together. Explosive damage encourages low scan res, say what?
DPS is not low. EHP is enough to DD tank (With the fit I posted anyway). Range is an issue. Tracking can be fixed by tracking computers which take the Sensor booster slot. While the Apocalypses lay down the EM damage to take out the shield, you will be finishing the lock and killing the armor with your Exp/Kin damage.
Tremors mix of Explosive and Kinetic is only a tiny bit better against armour tanks than Spike's mix of Thermal and Kinetic. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
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