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Esna Pitoojee
Amarr TalCorp Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.07.31 04:36:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Sidon Zelotes What does it matter what tool is used to correct wrong thought among the slave population? IsnÆt it more humane to induce happiness and contentment in those not chosen by God to live with free will? I suppose you would prefer the lash or whip to a drug or implant. While I own no slaves as yet I must confess that I would readily use any tool that would encourage correct thought contentment, and fear of God and his divine order.
This is the sort of thing that makes me want to go out and fry someone with my Mega Pulses.
Why do you believe that slaves need to be 'corrected'? 'Corrected' insinuates that they are making an 'incorrect' choice - but, given the deplorable way to many slaves are treated, are you surprised that they are disagreeable?
Why not convince them, simply be treating them as human beings - aye, human beings who have fallen under our will, but human beings with their own minds, own wills, and own lives nonetheless?
Now let me ask you something else: No technology is infallible. Transcranial Microcontrollers are no different. So, sooner or later we are going to see slaves 'waking up,' realising they have been duped, and becoming... well, rather angry. Rightfully so. Why not avoid this difficulty in the beginning? ----------------------------------------------
Say "Amarr ships suk, lol." I dare you.
My statments do not represent the opinions, views, or actions of my corp. |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2009.07.31 04:44:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Sidon Zelotes What does it matter what tool is used to correct wrong thought among the slave population? IsnÆt it more humane to induce happiness and contentment in those not chosen by God to live with free will? I suppose you would prefer the lash or whip to a drug or implant. While I own no slaves as yet I must confess that I would readily use any tool that would encourage correct thought contentment, and fear of God and his divine order.
It's a fair question. If the implant replaces the more brutal forms of slave control I'd think the Tribals and other abolitionists would welcome the change. That is provided the implant does no permanent damage.
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari Infection Vector
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Posted - 2009.07.31 08:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Mr Reeth It's a fair question. If the implant replaces the more brutal forms of slave control I'd think the Tribals and other abolitionists would welcome the change. That is provided the implant does no permanent damage.
One small point.
It is not the method of control used, it is that control must be used at all. To believe that simply because the method of slavery is improved, that the call to end slavery will cease is simply ignorant or misinformed.
It is about choice and freedom, not whether those enslaved are treated well.
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 10:06:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Merdaneth on 31/07/2009 10:05:55
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Originally by: Mr Reeth It's a fair question. If the implant replaces the more brutal forms of slave control I'd think the Tribals and other abolitionists would welcome the change. That is provided the implant does no permanent damage.
One small point.
It is not the method of control used, it is that control must be used at all. To believe that simply because the method of slavery is improved, that the call to end slavery will cease is simply ignorant or misinformed.
It is about choice and freedom, not whether those enslaved are treated well.
I'm still amazed how ignorant people can be.
In every society people control one another. Criminal laws and penalties, property laws, locks and fences, threats (both physical and social), promises of reward, seduction, etc. All these are methods of control. Control must be used because men are prone to sin and selfishness and they all desire scarce resources.
Additionally, everyone always has choices, everyone is 'free' in that sense. A implant does not remove choice and freedom any more or less than a high wall, cliff or empty wallet does.
Either accept that each society employs methods of control and be prepared to discuss what methods are better (efficient, more humane etc.) or reject that notion, but then don't start debating the merits of each method. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari Infection Vector
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Posted - 2009.07.31 13:45:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Merdaneth I'm still amazed how ignorant people can be.
In every society people control one another. Criminal laws and penalties, property laws, locks and fences, threats (both physical and social), promises of reward, seduction, etc. All these are methods of control. Control must be used because men are prone to sin and selfishness and they all desire scarce resources.
Additionally, everyone always has choices, everyone is 'free' in that sense. A implant does not remove choice and freedom any more or less than a high wall, cliff or empty wallet does.
Either accept that each society employs methods of control and be prepared to discuss what methods are better (efficient, more humane etc.) or reject that notion, but then don't start debating the merits of each method.
Amazing.
My dear, please reread what I have posted elsewhere and here. I think your reactions may be out of proportion to what was said.
Quote: One small point.
It is not the method of control used, it is that control must be used at all. To believe that simply because the method of slavery is improved, that the call to end slavery will cease is simply ignorant or misinformed.
It is about choice and freedom, not whether those enslaved are treated well.
Abolitionists, by definition, seek slavery to be abolished, in any form. I was arguing that it is naive to think that simply "improving the methods of slavery" would satiate those who seek to do away with slavery entirely.
The "Tribals" wish to see all their people freed from slavery. It is just as naive to think that "better methods" would make them happy that their people are under the Slaver's control.
So I ask you; do I really wish to get into a debate with you on something as trivial as slavery? Or are you perhaps making a snap judgment based on a cursory examination of the facts?
Now, let's look at Mr Reeth's statement.
Quote: If the implant replaces the more brutal forms of slave control I'd think the Tribals and other abolitionists would welcome the change. That is provided the implant does no permanent damage.
Do you not see the utter hilarity in this statement? That abolitionists would "welcome" a new method of slavery. Think about your own reaction to such a comment; do you not find it naive? In your experience, do you not think this is, if not ignorant, based on an incomplete understanding of the situation?
Oh, and congratulations; you've perhaps just started a whole new line of argument for your enemies.
Quote: Either accept that each society employs methods of control and be prepared to discuss what methods are better (efficient, more humane etc.) or reject that notion, but then don't start debating the merits of each method.
This could be applied to Slavery quite easily, and those who employ it without weighing the alternatives.
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Spoon Thumb
Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.31 14:18:00 -
[36]
This debate shouldn't really be about slavery, but rather the relationship between man and machine
At what point does the TCMC become the AI controlling an advanced biological machine rather than an implant enhancing a human being same as any other implant?
For me it is in the useage. A factory worker, be they slave or employee is more than a mere tool in the machinery of the production plant.
This is because they essentially do have free will. There is always a choice, even within the confines of slavery. How you approach your work, how hard you work, and in what frame of mind etc.
If with a TCMC you are guaranteed the same result every time by the way you induce delusions within the mind of the host, then you have indeed turned them into a machine, a tool
What is so abhorant about what Sansha did was that he turned humans into machines. This in essence reduces potential of a human being, to act, think and do. Hence why it was universally condemned by all other nations and peoples
You can't enlighten a machine.
Thus if you can use a TCMC to "nudge" someone in the right direction, as a temporary measure, perhaps purposely fulfilling their dreams or nightmares before disconnecting them back to reality, then I have no moral objections
To turn them into a machine, by keeping them in permanently in a falsely delusional state for example, would be wrong.
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2009.07.31 16:57:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
It is not the method of control used, it is that control must be used at all.
Incase you failed to notice, this is not generic slavery thread #1000932. This is a thread started by a member of a self proclaimed freedom fighting alliance about a SPECIFIC METHOD OF ENSLAVEMENT.
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
To believe that simply because the method of slavery is improved, that the call to end slavery will cease is simply ignorant or misinformed.
Whoever said it would you daft bird? Your ability to fail at reading what is written and imagine what is not written is quite incredible.
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
It is about choice and freedom, not whether those enslaved are treated well.
Naturally the end of slavery would still be desired and fought for with the same level of determination. I doubt anybody would expect UK to hang up their Rifters if slaves were given better treatment and ice cream. But IÆd imagine those tribals outside the Empire would hope that their brothers and sisters were not brutalized before they could be freed or were able to find at least some measure of pace and happiness in their unfortunate position. And even if they did not care to what extent their people suffered, I know it damn sure matters to the actual slaves themselves.
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Amazing.
My dear, please reread what I have posted elsewhere and here. I think your reactions may be out of proportion to what was said.
Now thatÆs the Raven calling the Scorpion black. You might want to practice reading a little yourself before suggesting it to others.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2009.07.31 17:08:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb This debate shouldn't really be about slavery, but rather the relationship between man and machine
At what point does the TCMC become the AI controlling an advanced biological machine rather than an implant enhancing a human being same as any other implant?
For me it is in the useage. A factory worker, be they slave or employee is more than a mere tool in the machinery of the production plant.
This is because they essentially do have free will. There is always a choice, even within the confines of slavery. How you approach your work, how hard you work, and in what frame of mind etc.
If with a TCMC you are guaranteed the same result every time by the way you induce delusions within the mind of the host, then you have indeed turned them into a machine, a tool
What is so abhorant about what Sansha did was that he turned humans into machines. This in essence reduces potential of a human being, to act, think and do. Hence why it was universally condemned by all other nations and peoples
You can't enlighten a machine.
Thus if you can use a TCMC to "nudge" someone in the right direction, as a temporary measure, perhaps purposely fulfilling their dreams or nightmares before disconnecting them back to reality, then I have no moral objections
To turn them into a machine, by keeping them in permanently in a falsely delusional state for example, would be wrong.
I suggest you run an experiment to find out exactly what the implant does. I'm sure CVA has a number of slaves captured from the escape pods of freedom fighter ships. Select an especially... spirited slave and install the implant. If he goes from trying to choke you to death with his chains to your lapdog you'll know the implant goes too far.
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari Infection Vector
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Posted - 2009.07.31 18:31:00 -
[39]
Mr Reeth, no need for histrionics. I fully understand what was written.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2009.08.01 01:09:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara Mr Reeth, no need for histrionics. I fully understand what was written.
Your analysis of my statement says otherwise.
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Sidon Zelotes
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.08.01 03:33:00 -
[41]
I am disheartened that my comments upset Brother Esna. I can assure you I did not mean to provoke you to threaten violence especially against your own kindà Believing that kindness and benevolence alone with produce correct thought within the slave population within the Empire is naive at best. While it is not my place to judge I feel these remarks related to slaves humanity and state of being border on heretical. InferiorÆs revolt to become equal, equals to become superior. That is the nature of the man and one of the many reasons Gods laws are revealed and his will manifest. On a more practical level I simply think that using less aggressive and damaging means of insuring obedience will not only demonstrate our humanity but preserve the value of our property. I realize that a great debate related to the disposition of the subject races is boiling within the Empire. I pray cooler heads provable.
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.08.01 03:58:00 -
[42]
It's amusing how similar the Amarrian and Sansha's Nation pirates really are.
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Sidon Zelotes
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.08.01 05:31:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Sidon Zelotes on 01/08/2009 05:33:27 It pains me to be rudeà and normally I would not bother to speak with a heathenà But that is rich satire Madam Suitonia when so many of your own ômedicateö themselves to find peace. Perhaps if your culture was based on something besides the exaltation of the self fewer of your kind would have to escape from reality.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2009.08.01 06:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Sidon Zelotes Edited by: Sidon Zelotes on 01/08/2009 05:33:27 It pains me to be rudeà and normally I would not bother to speak with a heathenà But that is rich satire Madam Suitonia when so many of your own ômedicateö themselves to find peace. Perhaps if your culture was based on something besides the exaltation of the self fewer of your kind would have to escape from reality.
Don't worry too much about her statement. Snappy one-liners rarely deserve recognition. Besides the Black Eagles made her say it.
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Sidon Zelotes
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.08.01 07:04:00 -
[45]
I appreciate your advice and will differ to your wisdom Brother Reeth when dealing with such in the future.
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Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2009.08.01 07:29:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Suitonia It's amusing how similar the Amarrian and Sansha's Nation pirates really are.
Don't presume to insult the Nation.
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Ugleb
Minmatar Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.01 09:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Mr Reeth
Originally by: Ugleb
If you are a Slave Holder, we ask you not to use these devices, but suffice to say I do not expect Slavers to heed my words.
If the implant can be safely removed then wouldn't you agree that it is better than vitoc? And that the implant should indeed replace vitoc?
Would prefer to lose your right leg, or your left? Would you prefer to be controlled through addiction and the threat of withdrawal, or to have your very mind manipulated?
Both are atrocities, neither is at all desirable. I did not come to debate which is the worst, but to prevent the popular rise of yet another atrocity.
There is little question of slave welfare driving this growing trend, it is motivated by an economic factor. By a company seeking to peddle a product and by investors seeking to secure their 'investments'. The motive is wealth, not humanity. The question is whether or not it will be tolerated.
The Journal; Walking The Road To liberation |
Kharakan
Amarr The Synenose Accord
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Posted - 2009.08.01 10:41:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Suitonia It's amusing how similar the Amarrian and Sansha's Nation pirates really are.
You don't know what you're talking about, do you? this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2009.08.01 14:51:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ugleb
Would prefer to lose your right leg, or your left?
If my left leg were detachable and my right leg not I would definitely choose to lose my left leg.
When a vitoc addicted slave is freed he is still addicted to vitoc for life. There is no escape from the torture. The moment one is exposed to the vile slime they have permanently lost a piece of themselves. They can only exist in one of two states, a euphoric drugy cloud or intense pain.
So yes, provided the device could be safely removed and it does not turn me into a mindless drone I would opt for the implant over vitoc. Those are two rather big conditions that may not be met by implant's design. I have yet to see how they actually work.
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Dex Nederland
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2009.08.01 15:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mr Reeth So yes, provided the device could be safely removed and it does not turn me into a mindless drone I would opt for the implant over vitoc. Those are two rather big conditions that may not be met by implant's design. I have yet to see how they actually work.
TCMCs have been used for several years by Federal citizens for entertainment purposes. These are the same TCMCs that Ishukone sold to the Kingdom previously and now to the Empire. So, unless one is incredibly weak-willed I doubt mindless drone is a treat and implantation processes vary. I am not familiar with Amarrian Slave medicine or its variances so I can not answer the 'safely removed' component.
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Mr Reeth
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Posted - 2009.08.01 16:10:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Dex Nederland
TCMCs have been used for several years by Federal citizens for entertainment purposes. These are the same TCMCs that Ishukone sold to the Kingdom previously and now to the Empire. So, unless one is incredibly weak-willed I doubt mindless drone is a treat and implantation processes vary. I am not familiar with Amarrian Slave medicine or its variances so I can not answer the 'safely removed' component.
Thank you for the information.
By safely removed I meant that they are not designed to damage the brain if removed. But given what you have said I'm sure now that they are quite safe.
I suppose the worst thing that can be done with these is create some kind of nightmare scenario in the subjects brain. But the collar is already able to do that chemically so there's no real change.
So the slaves are getting free luxury items just like spoiled Gallente kids. How nice for them.
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Sidon Zelotes
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.08.01 19:50:00 -
[52]
I understand Mr. UglebÆs argument and his desire to better his peopleÆs plight. Might I suggest assimilation instead of conflict?
Slavery however is a fact of life. There have always been slaves of one kind or another and there always will be. It is unfortunate that the Matar have ôchosenö not to assimilate into the Empire like so many other races who enjoy the benefits and rewards of its benevolent policies.
The fact of history is that the Empire dragged the Matar kicking and screaming into the modern age giving them guidance and purpose. Even the greatest gift of all, knowledge of the one true God and his path to salvation.
If only the Matar would Embrace and assimilate into the Empire like the other races freed from ignorance and damnation. Races that have achieved much and contributed much to the Empire.
Who knows what their race might achieve in a century or two if they abandoned their wrongful ways. Being a moral man I will use whatever tool is given to assure that my property is contented, obedient, and profitable.
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