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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 61 post(s) |
Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
144
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:09:00 -
[151] - Quote
Raqn Paudeen wrote:Michael Harari wrote:I pretty much imagine the way this went down is the AT team giggling as they got each email from Garmon, passing it around the office and giggling some more.
This is clearly revenge for last year's finals, even though the metagaming antics of HYDRA made the entire tournament awesome to watch and think about. My question to the AT team is this. If you have been paying so much attention to HYDRA and what they have been doing, how did you overlook all the messages they sent to you? The whole thing seems a bit.. fishy, and honestly its a **** start to the AT.
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Beledia Ilphukiir
Proffessional Experts Group
37
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:13:00 -
[152] - Quote
This brings to mind the immortal words and heart felt sympathy of JC Denton. |
Easley Thames
The Maverick Navy Against ALL Authorities
29
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:16:00 -
[153] - Quote
Wow, it's wide open this year if we really have no Hydra, Outbreak, Darkside or PL involved.
Then again, whosoever wins this year will have won a somewhat less-impressive victory with none of the favorites playing this time.
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Zowie Powers
Hole in the wall
105
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:17:00 -
[154] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I pretty much imagine the way this went down is the AT team giggling as they got each email from Garmon, passing it around the office and giggling some more.
This is clearly revenge for last year's finals, even though the metagaming antics of HYDRA made the entire tournament awesome to watch and think about.
Butthurt over AT9 just doesn't seem a good reason for this. What I mean is....
Who won the first alliance tournament? And how many people who have heard of Eve and it's tournament know that?
Who won the second alliance tournament? And how many people who have heard of Eve and it's tournament know that?
and so on.. Now... Who won the NINTH alliance tournament? And how many people who have heard of Eve and it's tournament know that?
You see, you cannot buy advertising that good. Word of that farce spread far and wide, putting Eve on maps where ever it went. It's just not the sort of situation one could imagine CCP acting in such a viscious manner over. Viscious spite like this is usually reserved for matter pertaining to either pregnant daughters or money, lots of money.
I suspect it's more about ending Hydra alliance to make sure Eve Is Easy gets permanently ended, most likely in favour of professional coaching services to be introduced by an alliance more under CCP's control and pay roll.
--- ATX: The best of the rest. |
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:17:00 -
[155] - Quote
Zowie Powers wrote:TheSkeptic wrote:The simple fact you had to even ask CCP shows that you yourself were not even sure if you were one entity or not. The simple fact they had to ask CCP shows it was indeterminable if CCP knew they were separate entities or not. And sure enough, it turns out that CCP have left it to one single partisan individual with a vested interest for his friend to make that determination, both badly, swiftly and wrongly. Many people took great efforts to try to appease the requirements of CCP Vague Rules and great efforts to try to get them, not just clarified, but written in clear English. The incredulous circumstances of the banning are a testament to the effort that went into that procedure. Had things been different CCP's inevitable banning of Hydra and Outbreak would have had to have been declared under the "Ban anybody for no reason we have to state" rule, leading to an even more bizarre situation than the one we have today, you're all just lucky that CCP managed to make something look believable at this stage, and all it has cost is all the self respect of CCP Sunset, CCP Soundwave and CCP Sreegs Friend Of Goons. It was a good deal for them, and even better if they still get what it is they're actually after, the disbanding of Hydra alliance.
Not saying it's right or not harsh, or even that I agree with it... but looking at it from a complete external perspective it just looks like mistakes were made, and now all of a sudden it's CCPs fault.
It really should be black and white regarding the rules. If this happened without you asking CCP first because you'd both separately entered knowing you are separate entities I'd easily share your shock and disappointment.
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xo3e
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
27
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:18:00 -
[156] - Quote
Quote:My question to the AT team is this.
If you have been paying so much attention to HYDRA and what they have been doing, how did you overlook all the messages they sent to you? The whole thing seems a bit.. fishy, and honestly its a **** start to the AT.
its obvious that CCP got our messages. so, relax. when CCP will get into structure - they'll definitely invent an excuse about why they missed this messages.
oh prolly their AT Team were so busy watching on our actions in wormhole that they missed emails. or their SMTP server went down or something else.
u just dont need to know what exactly happened, until the level of shietstorm reached its certain limits. Signature removed. Navigator |
Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
24
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:21:00 -
[157] - Quote
Pallidum Treponema wrote:Raqn Paudeen wrote:Michael Harari wrote:I pretty much imagine the way this went down is the AT team giggling as they got each email from Garmon, passing it around the office and giggling some more.
This is clearly revenge for last year's finals, even though the metagaming antics of HYDRA made the entire tournament awesome to watch and think about. My question to the AT team is this. If you have been paying so much attention to HYDRA and what they have been doing, how did you overlook all the messages they sent to you? The whole thing seems a bit.. fishy, and honestly its a **** start to the AT.
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Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
135
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:25:00 -
[158] - Quote
If you are Hydra or Outbreak this sucks.
If you are CCP you are probably still somewhat confused as to what Hydra / Outbreak really expected to happen when they did the same thing that precipitated the creation of the rule in the first place.
If you are a fan of EVE you love a good controversy leading up to a big event.
If you are me you are probably chuckling that a GM defense is not really a defense. :bitter:
If you are a fan of metagaming then you should love the irony of how making a terrible, terrible, terrible decision lost last year's 1 and 2 teams the tournament before the tournament even started.
If you are a competitor you are probably happy that the strongest 2-headed monster (swidt? (hydra) ) has been removed from the pool.
Such an interesting event...
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Diana Valenti
United Abominations.
28
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:31:00 -
[159] - Quote
Im glad they are banned, last year final was terrible. |
SwindonBadger
0utbreak Outbreak.
5
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:34:00 -
[160] - Quote
"When Sreegs says this is the final word then please respect that decision. Discussing the matter in a new thread is not constructive."
locked."
Respect is not given when it is not earned.
One of Two things happend,
A, Sreegs reads our mails and even chatted to Senior GM who had gve us grean light to test and then plots to lie to the comunity about knowing this in order to ban (Remember that you have time to watch us closely, and yet for some reason unable to find the time to talk with us, unlike RvB, unlike PL who you have broken your own rules for).
"We were not aware of the petition to the GM at the time of the ruling and feel itGÇÖs worth following up on to remove any perceived ambiguity. The request from the player in our petition system is as follows:" or
B, He really was unaware >
" Everyone, the GM response to the petition was not brought to the attention of the Alliance Tournament team and should not have been sent, this was an error that we will investigate further."
as a result admits that not only was the seniour GM not to send us this , but it was an error.....yet although the error lies in CCP hands we take the fall.
But much much worse to me then this vendictve attitude is I hear ( from non hydra entities) he was activly trying to stop Hydra from reciving the prizes won at the last fanfest.
how could I repesct this person? |
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Gnaw LF
51
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:38:00 -
[161] - Quote
Dubez wrote:Quote:This is a good post. I'm still amazed that every single email sent to the tournament team was completely ignored and the only official response we got (a Senior GM out of touch with the tournament team) was deemed invalid. Yeah, because you know, everyone who works at CCP is entitled to make decisions for a group completely unrelated to them. Oh yeah, and they are robots and never make mistakes ever. You say you sent countless mails. Lets see them. Own up or shut up imo. I find it difficult to take anything seriously from a group of people senseless enough to slither around what is considered good form. You ****** up, own up. You humiliated not only CCP but the entire EVE community by pulling that bull **** at Fanfest. Why can't you play fair like everyone else? Sure Goonswarm and TEST team up, but they aren't sharing their ****. At least the have some dignity in that respect. You guys on the other hand; no, not worth my time, CCPs time, or the player bases' time. Goodbye and good riddance.
Its not about CCP or who in the company talk to who. Its about player alliance, in this case Hydra and Outbreak, as far as they concerned they had OFFICIAL response from CCP, then CCP goes and bans them. If this response by GM is ignored it sets a bad example that it does not matter what the GM tells you in game, someone else from CCP can completely revert his decision and ban you. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
102
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:41:00 -
[162] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:
If you are a competitor you are probably happy that the strongest 2-headed monster (swidt? (hydra) ) has been removed from the pool. .
With the exception of darkside, who had to change their pants, I dont think anyone in the AT agrees with this decision. |
Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
146
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:42:00 -
[163] - Quote
Were Hydra and 0utbreak stupid to merge into a single corp on SiSi for the tournament practice?
Yes.
Did they have malicious intent?
I don't know. I want to believe that they did not.
Were CCP stupid to make such a harsh ruling, and sticking with it even after learning about the GM response?
Yes.
Did they have malicious intent?
I don't know. I want to believe that they did not. |
Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
138
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:44:00 -
[164] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote: Its not about CCP or who in the company talk to who. Its about player alliance, in this case Hydra and Outbreak, as far as they concerned they had OFFICIAL response from CCP, then CCP goes and bans them. If this response by GM is ignored it sets a bad example that it does not matter what the GM tells you in game, someone else from CCP can completely revert his decision and ban you.
I see you are new here, welcome to EVE.
Hydrabreak know the score. GM responses are pretty much worthless at the end of the day. Zeee logs show nuthingZ.
Using a GM response as a defense is justification. They KNEW that the rule got put in place because of what happened last year. So they thought they could do the same thing and get away with it?
They made a bad decision. It was not IF CPP was going to pull the plug. It was WHEN. Were they going to wait until the tournament started? Until the finals? No, they pulled the plug as soon as the teams demonstrated nothing has changed, business as usual.
"Too Good to Fail" |
Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
27
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:46:00 -
[165] - Quote
If the GM response was the only attempt at getting information out of the tournament team that would be relevant, but it was not. |
Gnaw LF
53
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:46:00 -
[166] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:This is certainly one of the most vindictive exchanges I've ever read from this community. Come on guys, you can, and should be, better than this. Regarding the issue in question, in no uncertain terms, Hydra and Outbreak worked together to a degree that could be considered collusion and thus by letter of the law, absolutely should be barred from competing together. However, where it gets messy is the correspondence of the Game Masters. A Senior Game Master, an individual who is, reputedly, one of the highest authorities available to the playerbase for questions and concerns, said that what Hydra and Outbreak were doing, practicing together in the same system on the test server, was okay. Acting on good faith that what a Senior Game Master tells a player is true and accurate, Hydra and Outbreak went ahead and performed what was, by the rules of the tournament organizers, against the rules of Alliance Tournament X participation, and thus were banned from competition. Thus far, no opportunity for a dialogue between CCP and the banned parties has been publicly granted. Do the Game Masters have reliable authority in Eve Online, or do they not? Can we, as players, take Game Masters at their word, and can we act in good faith that what a Game Master tells us is true, accurate, and reliable? The Game Masters are the front of customer service between the game's developers as operators of the online environment and the customer base; if we cannot trust that anything a game master tells a player will not be overridden by other employees at CCP, there is a horrific problem with the customer service aspect of the Eve Online service that should be addressed immediately. The ability for CCP's Game Masters to serve as a reliable source of information and advice to the player base has been substantially undermined by this incident.
Nailed on the head a thousand times over. The issue here is not whether or not Hydra or Outbreak deserve a ban, but rather should such a ban be placed under the current circumstances. Considering they head OFFICIAL ******* GO AHEAD FROM CCP, doesnt matter who in CCP, they had a response telling them that they are within the rules. To then turn around and ban them without so much as a warning or ultimatum is not only capricious but also malicious. Do the right thing CCP.
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Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
139
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:49:00 -
[167] - Quote
Pallidum Treponema wrote:Were Hydra and 0utbreak stupid to merge into a single corp on SiSi for the tournament practice?Yes. Did they have malicious intent?I don't know. I want to believe that they did not. Were CCP stupid to make such a harsh ruling, and sticking with it even after learning about the GM response?Yes. Did they have malicious intent?I don't know. I want to believe that they did not.
Well at least you are kind enough to point out they may actually be stupid. I suppose that is better than malicious.
... |
Jack Parr
University of Caille Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:50:00 -
[168] - Quote
Funniest thread I've read in a long time. I hope you enjoy your ban watching the better players competing while you sit on the sidelines. "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average goon." -á -á-á - The Mittani |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
212
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:52:00 -
[169] - Quote
xo3e wrote:its obvious that CCP got our messages. so, relax. when CCP will get into structure - they'll definitely invent an excuse about why they missed this messages Right, i even asked spitfire to poke proper persons within CCP so we get reply ASAP. He said he doesn't know the person behind evetv address, but will ask navigator to poke proper people (because he should know). At 7th may Navigator was out of the offince (at least i was told so), then i contacted spitfire multiple times on 9th, 10th and 15th may. On 15th i finally got a response that spitfire passed the request to navigator, but it didn't help in any way.
Guise, just imagine amount of attention we put into this queestion. We contacted CCP by the all means we had. Obviously GM's response, confirmed to be legal by _CCP_ official (which i already mentioned in this thread) relaxed us. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
104
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 15:52:00 -
[170] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:Gnaw LF wrote: Its not about CCP or who in the company talk to who. Its about player alliance, in this case Hydra and Outbreak, as far as they concerned they had OFFICIAL response from CCP, then CCP goes and bans them. If this response by GM is ignored it sets a bad example that it does not matter what the GM tells you in game, someone else from CCP can completely revert his decision and ban you.
I see you are new here, welcome to EVE. Hydrabreak know the score. GM responses are pretty much worthless at the end of the day. Zeee logs show nuthingZ. Using a GM response as a defense is justification. They KNEW that the rule got put in place because of what happened last year. So they thought they could do the same thing and get away with it? They made a bad decision. It was not IF CPP was going to pull the plug. It was WHEN. Were they going to wait until the tournament started? Until the finals? No, they pulled the plug as soon as the teams demonstrated nothing has changed, business as usual. "Too Good to Fail"
Yes, it was a bad idea to even try it, but they tried as hard as they could to see if it was allowed. They got 1 response which was yes, and no response from anyone that actually mattered. |
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Karl Planck
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
169
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 15:54:00 -
[171] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Evelgrivion wrote:This is certainly one of the most vindictive exchanges I've ever read from this community. Come on guys, you can, and should be, better than this. Regarding the issue in question, in no uncertain terms, Hydra and Outbreak worked together to a degree that could be considered collusion and thus by letter of the law, absolutely should be barred from competing together. However, where it gets messy is the correspondence of the Game Masters. A Senior Game Master, an individual who is, reputedly, one of the highest authorities available to the playerbase for questions and concerns, said that what Hydra and Outbreak were doing, practicing together in the same system on the test server, was okay. Acting on good faith that what a Senior Game Master tells a player is true and accurate, Hydra and Outbreak went ahead and performed what was, by the rules of the tournament organizers, against the rules of Alliance Tournament X participation, and thus were banned from competition. Thus far, no opportunity for a dialogue between CCP and the banned parties has been publicly granted. Do the Game Masters have reliable authority in Eve Online, or do they not? Can we, as players, take Game Masters at their word, and can we act in good faith that what a Game Master tells us is true, accurate, and reliable? The Game Masters are the front of customer service between the game's developers as operators of the online environment and the customer base; if we cannot trust that anything a game master tells a player will not be overridden by other employees at CCP, there is a horrific problem with the customer service aspect of the Eve Online service that should be addressed immediately. The ability for CCP's Game Masters to serve as a reliable source of information and advice to the player base has been substantially undermined by this incident. Nailed on the head a thousand times over. The issue here is not whether or not Hydra or Outbreak deserve a ban, but rather should such a ban be placed under the current circumstances. Considering they head OFFICIAL ******* GO AHEAD FROM CCP, doesnt matter who in CCP, they had a response telling them that they are within the rules. To then turn around and ban them without so much as a warning or ultimatum is not only capricious but also malicious. Do the right thing CCP.
Hyrda did not disclose the full extent of what they were doing. Placing both teams in the same corp in the same pos on the test server and saying "trust us, were not working together THAT much" is a load of bull. If they had FULLY DISCLOSED what they were doing i am confident the answer would not have been the same If you don't like it, you should go and ride your Emo high-horse all the way back to WoW.
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Time Funnel
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
139
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:56:00 -
[172] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Time Funnel wrote:
If you are a competitor you are probably happy that the strongest 2-headed monster (swidt? (hydra) ) has been removed from the pool. .
With the exception of darkside, who had to change their pants, I dont think anyone in the AT agrees with this decision.
Then you probably don't want to win. |
Karl Planck
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
169
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:57:00 -
[173] - Quote
Kadesh Priestess wrote:xo3e wrote:its obvious that CCP got our messages. so, relax. when CCP will get into structure - they'll definitely invent an excuse about why they missed this messages Right, i even asked spitfire to poke proper persons within CCP so we get reply ASAP. He said he doesn't know the person behind evetv address, but will ask navigator to poke proper people (because he should know). At 7th may Navigator was out of the offince (at least i was told so), then i contacted spitfire multiple times on 9th, 10th and 15th may. On 15th i finally got a response that spitfire passed the request to navigator, but it didn't help in any way. Guise, just imagine amount of attention we put into this queestion. We contacted CCP by the all means we had. Obviously GM's response, confirmed to be legal by _CCP_ official (which i already mentioned in this thread) relaxed us.
And with this much doubt, on your side of the table, in the legitimacy of your actions you continued along a path which you knew could exclude you both from competition...
If you don't like it, you should go and ride your Emo high-horse all the way back to WoW.
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Gnaw LF
53
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:57:00 -
[174] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:Gnaw LF wrote: Its not about CCP or who in the company talk to who. Its about player alliance, in this case Hydra and Outbreak, as far as they concerned they had OFFICIAL response from CCP, then CCP goes and bans them. If this response by GM is ignored it sets a bad example that it does not matter what the GM tells you in game, someone else from CCP can completely revert his decision and ban you.
I see you are new here, welcome to EVE. Hydrabreak know the score. GM responses are pretty much worthless at the end of the day. Zeee logs show nuthingZ. Using a GM response as a defense is justification. They KNEW that the rule got put in place because of what happened last year. So they thought they could do the same thing and get away with it? They made a bad decision. It was not IF CPP was going to pull the plug. It was WHEN. Were they going to wait until the tournament started? Until the finals? No, they pulled the plug as soon as the teams demonstrated nothing has changed, business as usual. "Too Good to Fail"
You are in Test and you are calling me new? And I don't care about your personal experiences with GMs, the idea is that their decisions and responses to petitions are OFFICIAL. It may not work that way all the time, or any of the time for that matter, but that is precisely why we need to voice our concerns, otherwise we just let CCP off the hook with their inconsistent approach to moderating the game. |
Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
31
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:58:00 -
[175] - Quote
It's ok - CCP has started deleting posts now. Excellent work. |
Kyros Xero
Xuronautics
17
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:58:00 -
[176] - Quote
The GM response was a narrow ruling on a specific item - sparring against other teams - and specifically included a warning against "appearing to be the same people". Holding that up as a blank check for anything Hydra might choose to do on the test server (merging corps, etc) is weak sauce.
It would be like getting the ok from your buddy to go hang out, then banging his Mom. Not the same thing.
Don't villainize the GM. POS Layered Defenses: "Panic" mode and defense-automation arrays |
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.05.25 16:00:00 -
[177] - Quote
Sooo, uhhhh, since you're not busy practicing in a wormhole, you want to practice with the Razor team? We need our butts kicked on the test server. |
Darius III
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
1355
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Posted - 2012.05.25 16:01:00 -
[178] - Quote
I have voiced my displeasure officially as CSM in the CSM/CCP secret place.
CCP doesnt have good track record with PR or communications with players and this incident highlights inadequacies with both. This has left a stain on the AT itself and is unfortunate and would have been easily avoided by CCP by making policies crystal clear and/or answering more succinctly *OR* the alliances themselves by simply going forward in complete separation.
I will miss HYDRA's participation greatly and I wish they hadn't taken a chance on trusting CCP to make the rules clear to everyone, nor taken a chance to even risk what could be viewed as collaboration if they did not in fact collaborate. HYDRA has always been an outfit with peerless skill and combat acumen and I am deeply saddened by their banning and the circumstances surrounding it. Hmmm |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
140
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Posted - 2012.05.25 16:01:00 -
[179] - Quote
Karl Planck wrote:Hyrda did not disclose the full extent of what they were doing. Placing both teams in the same corp in the same pos on the test server and saying "trust us, were not working together THAT much" is a load of bull. If they had FULLY DISCLOSED what they were doing i am confident the answer would not have been the same
First off, what is the actual intent of the "No alternate teams" rule? Is it meant to stop the same entity from entering multiple teams from the same alliance/organization? Is it intended to prevent an alts vs alts situation such as the finale of AT9? If it's the former, Red vs Blue looks to have been granted preferential treatment while engaging in similar behavior. If it's the latter, I wasn't aware Hydra and Outbreak are alt corps; are they? |
Hecater
Scullthrone
5
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Posted - 2012.05.25 16:02:00 -
[180] - Quote
Quote:It's ok - CCP has started deleting posts now. Excellent work.
dont be afraid dear CCP dudes
this shiet will definetely reach certain media and i am also trying to contact Sony atm. |
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