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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.13 18:08:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 13/08/2009 18:15:19
Originally by: Sky Grunthor Diplomacy is not sacrosanct, it is a tool, nothing more nothing less. There are guidelines and confidences that should be kept and adhered to but when the self interest of the organization is in the balance, diplomatic sanctity be damned.
I disagree.
If you are cooperating with Electus Matari, your confidental information remains confidental.
But claiming that all diplomatic communication is "private" and must, under no circumstances, be mentioned in public is completely missing the reality of diplomacy.
For example, when The Cosmpolite explained that IRON had "[cited] a whole catalogue of excuses" in this old press releases, he was giving out information from a private talk. Furthermore, that thread even quotes a full chat log of a discussion between diplomats.
Was The Cosmopolite wrong in doing so? Can no trust be put into him anymore because he broke some kind of "sanctity"?
No. He contacted a foreign diplomat, received answers to questions, and explains in public why Jericho Fraction decided on the course of action they did based on this conversation.
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Mizhara Del'thul
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Posted - 2009.08.13 18:31:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Mizhara Del''thul on 13/08/2009 18:32:48 Do not confuse a private chat with diplomacy. If diplomatic contact is made, it goes beyond just a private conversation. It becomes a conduit through which the two parties exchange information, intents, desires and terms. This conduit can only be known to the public if it is the last resort for securing the lives of your party or is agreed upon beforehand.
Revealing the contents of diplomatic parcels just to justify something that doesn't need justification in the first place shows a frighteningly casual attitude towards the concept of diplomacy. And revealing it publicly without first providing the other party the chance to retract their contradictions, even should it be a vitally important matter, is tasteless.
Private conversations can turn out to be a matter of public scrutiny, indeed. Diplomatic contact however, can not, without both ample warning and extreme necessity. Neither of which seems to have been present in this case.
Trust is earned through actions, and the action of betraying trust without a damn good reason is something that takes enormous effort and much time to regain. In this, I do not speak as a member of Star Fraction. In this, I speak on behalf of myself.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 19:36:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sky Grunthor
Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul Diplomacy is sacrosanct. Circumstances are irrelevant. No trust can be put into any diplomatic contact with someone who breaks this sanctity.
Who broke sanctity? Arkady by revealing something said in private or SF by doing something they said they wouldn't do in private? (again based on what I've read)
What precisely do you think we've said in private we wouldn't do that you now say we've done?
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Sky Grunthor
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.13 21:17:00 -
[34]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Originally by: Sky Grunthor
Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul Diplomacy is sacrosanct. Circumstances are irrelevant. No trust can be put into any diplomatic contact with someone who breaks this sanctity.
Who broke sanctity? Arkady by revealing something said in private or SF by doing something they said they wouldn't do in private? (again based on what I've read)
What precisely do you think we've said in private we wouldn't do that you now say we've done?
The Cosmopolite
Truthfully Cosmo, don't read into that to much. The entire "diplomatic" situation and circumstance is a muddle to me. Its a he said/she said argument at this point from my perspective that only serves as a jumping off point for the much more interesting philosophical conversation about what Diplomacy is and how it should be rightfully viewed.
I have much respect for both SF/Jericho and Arkady personally and feel that this fued should be put behind you both. However, who the hell am I in this? The answer is just an observer who is confused.
Of course the entire thing seems a little off topic from the OP and maybe the interesting discussion about Diplomacy should be ended here and brought out in its own conversation separately. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 21:26:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik I will cite your private message in public.
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I do not give out confidential information given in private.
hmmmm
Well I wasnÆt involved in this specific case but IÆll have to agree with Miz, there are no circumstances when the covenant of diplomacy can be broken legitimately.
You have been noted as willing to use private correspondents between Diplomatic/Directorship Officers for public IGS arguments. I hope that Electus Matari as a whole doesnÆt support this practice.
Other than this incident IÆve had nothing but respect for EM, and have always stated as much (for years mind you). I have always been a fan of Elesbeth and all of Gradient.
The problem here for you, Arkady Sadik, is that you can never regain lost credit. Once you spend it on puny IGS fighting, it is spent for good.
ItÆs a hard truth, but a truth none the less.
Besides Arthur and Elsebeth are the primary contacts, so as long as Electus Matari isn't in favor of breaking the Covenant of Diplomacy there should still be diplomats a'plenty. |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 21:28:00 -
[36]
Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 13/08/2009 21:33:08
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
But claiming that all diplomatic communication is "private" and must, under no circumstances, be mentioned in public is completely missing the reality of diplomacy.
Well, I consider an exchange of mails between two diplomats as confidential and I consider an agreed conversation between diplomats confidential. I consider an incidental discussion where diplomats become party to the discussion confidential as soon as they ask for it to be on diplomatic terms. That's the Star Fraction's approach and the one I follow. All I have said is that I note that Electus Matari does not share this view and you confirm with your remarks about the 'reality of diplomacy'. You wish to use diplomatic exchanges for propaganda purposes, that's fine. Just be aware that people will note this.
Quote:
For example, when The Cosmpolite explained that IRON had "[cited] a whole catalogue of excuses" in this old press releases, he was giving out information from a private talk. Furthermore, that thread even quotes a full chat log of a discussion between diplomats.
Was The Cosmopolite wrong in doing so? Can no trust be put into him anymore because he broke some kind of "sanctity"?
No. He contacted a foreign diplomat, received answers to questions, and explains in public why Jericho Fraction decided on the course of action they did based on this conversation.
This is superficially a nice try but even though you evidently took the time to dig quite a few years back in time, you haven't come up with anything, I am afraid.
You see, I remember this very well and I have to point out a few facts.
First, we contacted no IRON diplomats. Second, no IRON diplomats contacted us. Third, what happened here that we spoke to members of a corporation not in but allied to IRON to ask why they had started to shoot at us despite us having agreed mutual neutrality. We discussed it with them briefly and it turned out to be the usual standings enclosurism and they contacted some IRON diplomats so the matter could be discussed. Fourth, the IRON diplomats came into the conversation, with the other corporation's capsuleers remaining, and the issues were ventilated without any sense that it was a confidential discussion. Fifth, no request for diplomatic terms was made.
Ultimately, there was a conversation involving four or five people, not all of whom were diplomats, from various entities that was not held under any kind of diplomatic cover. Yes, people who were diplomats went in and out of it. But that's all.
I remember because we discussed the use of this log and whether or not it was appropriate to use it given our views on diplomatic confidentiality. We took the view that because of the way the chat started as an informal discussion and as it didn't turn into a closed diplomatic session (indeed the IRON diplomats left the discussion before the ordinary members who contacted us to discuss the issue) that the question of diplomatic confidentiality didn't arise.
I am inclined to share Sky Grunthor's view that there is not much more to say on this.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.13 21:30:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss The problem here for you, Arkady Sadik, is that you can never regain lost credit. Once you spend it on puny IGS fighting, it is spent for good.
How much credit did you lose by quoting me of context by leaving out the "if" part of an "if ... then ..." statement?
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Ellspeth Murdron
Caldari Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.13 21:44:00 -
[38]
It appears the shoe is on the other foot now... Electus Matari wasn't so pleased here to have a punitive war waged on it for dubious activity far outside of the minmatar regions...
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Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 21:44:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss The problem here for you, Arkady Sadik, is that you can never regain lost credit. Once you spend it on puny IGS fighting, it is spent for good.
How much credit did you lose by quoting me of context by leaving out the "if" part of an "if ... then ..." statement?
*notes the petty rejoinder
hmmm
I'm not a diplomat, never had the delicate skill of communication and neutrality. Even so I have been at the table once or twice and have yet to pass private diplomatic communication notes here. That you don't seem to understand the divide is troubling since you seem to hold a Diplomatic post for a notable allaince.
but to your "point", my quote is valid.
You did show private communications and then claimed you wouldn't do so. You may have added qualifiers in your statement to try and hedge the truth, but that does not make my choice "out of context".
Either you ôdoö or you ôdo notö share private communications from Directorship and Diplomatic Officers. you do. you have. live with it.
my quote stands. |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 21:49:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 13/08/2009 21:52:04
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
Well, I consider an exchange of mails between two diplomats as confidential and I consider an agreed conversation between diplomats confidential. I consider an incidental discussion where diplomats become party to the discussion confidential as soon as they ask for it to be on diplomatic terms.
that this even has to be said is mind boggling.
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Sky Grunthor
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.14 14:21:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 14/08/2009 14:23:47 I think you all are confusing the long held rights of the sanctity of diplomatic communication between a group and that groups diplomat with a sanctity that DOES NOT EXIST at the diplomatic table by default. That sanctity is an extension of the sanctity on the diplomats life and freedom and possessions within a foreign power.
I say by default here explicitly because it must be agreed upon by both parties to be confidential before it can become binding in any moral way.
Now does this mean that those conversations shouldn't be held in confidence as a matter of course? No, certainly not. It is in the best interest of the diplomats and groups concerned to honor confidentiality by default in most all circumstances. However those confidences are only as good as the honorableness of the the lesser party.
To go into a diplomatic conversation and assume that all of YOUR conversation will remain confidential between you and the other diplomat is foolhardy in the extreme. Yes, there is a great amount of trust and freedom that can grow between allies of good standing, but that trust is one built up over time of learning the metal of your ally.
Can you truthfully trust the contents of your conversation with a diplomat from a sworn enemy of the moral nature of say GoonSwarm? I certainly wouldn't for I know the moral fiber of said party is to be questioned.
What happens when the group on the other side of the table breaks its word or reveals such conversations in a distorted manner? Do you sit idly by and let the charges be made without redress or correction?
By placing the actual contents of conversation between two foreign diplomats at the such a high level, you are only opening yourself up to being abused because you fail to see the reality of the relationship. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.14 14:43:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sky Grunthor Can you truthfully trust the contents of your conversation with a diplomat from a sworn enemy of the moral nature of say GoonSwarm? I certainly wouldn't for I know the moral fiber of said party is to be questioned.
Thats a fair point but I certainly wouldn't consider any kind of diplomacy even possible with such an entity though so the question might not arise in the first place.
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
Neu Bastian
Minmatar Valklear Guard Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.08.14 17:29:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Neu Bastian on 14/08/2009 17:29:35
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Amaethon I challenge Electus Matari to present any evidence of of illegal actions commited by AT.
Good luck with that.
Nearly three years ago EM attacked Imperial Human Resources vessels inside Amarrian space using the old "they were acting illegally" excuse.
We're still waiting for the evidence.
For us freedom fighters its easy:
Any inhabitant or organization of New Eden who openly engages in slavery or slave trade is guilty of Crimes against Humanity.
Any inhabitant or organization of New Eden who supports the Amarrian slaver regime and other slaver organizations are guilty of complicity to commit crimes against humanity.
Any inhabitant or organization of New Eden who does not openly oppose slavery is guilty of Negligence.
"God told me it was okay" does not make for a valid exemption, neither does "I didn't know".
Plenty of criminals out there subject to education, reform or extermination.
Quote:
Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.14 17:48:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Sky Grunthor
What happens when the group on the other side of the table breaks its word or reveals such conversations in a distorted manner? Do you sit idly by and let the charges be made without redress or correction?
Obviously not. If one party breaks confidence it clearly absolves the other party of its obligation to maintain confidence.
Saying things in public that contradict things said in diplomatic discussions does not, however, constitute breaking that confidence. Indeed, it is in part precisely because diplomats must sometimes say things in private at variance with their public positions that diplomatic confidence is a valuable principle.
Don't misunderstand us, Sky, we're quite aware of the realities and we know that confidences get broken by some. Our position is simply that any diplomatic exchange û whether with friends, neutrals or our deadliest foes û is considered confidential by us unless both parties agree it is not or one party breaks faith with regard to that confidentiality.
Setting aside all questions of morality, I think this is actually a sound pragmatic position from which to conduct diplomacy.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Sky Grunthor
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.08.14 17:56:00 -
[45]
There is a large gulf between confidential and sacrosanct. It is the raising of something that should be confidential to the level of being sacrosanct which I have a large problem with. To do so is blinding one self.
Some may see this as a minor point, I do not. I also don't think that you and your fellow diplomats/leaders in SF in truth see the the diplomatic conversation as sacrosanct. I think you see it as I do, as something that is held in confidence and rest upon the laurels of honor.
However, words have meaning, and sacrosanct is a powerful word.
Well my point is made, I'll leave it rest unless something else incurs a desire to respond. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor |
Havohej
Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.14 18:41:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss I have been at the table once or twice and have yet to pass private diplomatic communication notes here
The AT guy said one thing in private and said an entirely different thing in public, in an attempt to rally public opinion against Electus Matari. Electus Matari exposed and challenged the AT guy's duplicity. As soon as AT's "diplomat" made the duplicitous verbal attack on -EM-'s reputation, he 'bought' that.
What's the problem?
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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Mizhara Del'thul
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Posted - 2009.08.14 18:48:00 -
[47]
I believe I stated quite clearly that my words were mine, and not those of Star Fraction. The use of the word sacrosanct was mine, and Star Fraction are not to be painted with that brush. The thing is, the word is fitting indeed as diplomacy goes beyond mere confidentiality that can be discarded. The word fits, because to break diplomatic confidence is a sin even should it be necessary.
When I say sacrosanct, it does not mean that "this should never be broken... ever...". It means that to break diplomatic confidentiality is something so grave, so important, that it should never be foisted off as inconsequential or excused without severe questioning.
Excuses can be found for any and all acts. Absolutions for the true sins, instead of the ones imposed by a false god, is something that can only be awarded to those acting righteously. And that... means that diplomacy is sacrosanct.
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 08:48:00 -
[48]
I am, frankly, a bit surprised.
Star Fraction and Electus Matari are loose allies, in the sense that they have a shared purpose and shared enemies if not a shared philosophy.
Why would Star Fraction, if it were truly concerned about the confidentiality of Electus Matari's diplomatic dealings challenge them publicly on this? A simple private diplomatic message between loose allies would no doubt been more effective. Mentioning this publically could only serve to damage Electus Matari's reputation and/or create distance (as perceived by the public) between the two parties. Unless this was The Cosmopolite's express purpose (with or without EM's knowledge and approval).
I repeatedly challenged Star Fraction in the past to prove their stated preference for diplomacy above war as a means to solve differences. The Cosmopolite has consistently denied supporting this claim with evidence stating that any and all Star Fraction diplomacy is confidential. Hence it stands to reason for him to defend this point of view.
Personally I believe diplomacy is practiced in many forms, not all of them utterly secretive and confidential. It is quite common for parties to diplomacy to at least provide general information about the general content of diplomatic negotations, even if the exact agreements are not made public. And the fact that negotations are going on are certainly often common and non-confidential knowledge. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.15 18:04:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Merdaneth
I repeatedly challenged Star Fraction in the past to prove their stated preference for diplomacy above war as a means to solve differences. The Cosmopolite has consistently denied supporting this claim with evidence stating that any and all Star Fraction diplomacy is confidential. Hence it stands to reason for him to defend this point of view.
No. What you have done is through laziness and duplicity not even bothered to look for the many public signs of Star Fraction diplomacy at work (for example, a goodly number of agreed ceasefires and withdrawals that have been publicly announced, together with several other publicly-known agreements, over the years) and insist that I am supposed to provide you with reams of information that you don't have access to because it is confidential. The Star Fraction has nothing it needs to prove to you when it comes to diplomacy. You are the one who seeks to show that we prefer war to diplomacy. You've signally failed to do so and hence your, as you say, repeated attempts to turn it around and have us prove the reverse. But I am not granting you the premise that we have to prove anything. I realise this frustrates you but I am afraid you will have to reconcile yourself to it.
Quote:
Personally I believe diplomacy is practiced in many forms, not all of them utterly secretive and confidential. It is quite common for parties to diplomacy to at least provide general information about the general content of diplomatic negotations, even if the exact agreements are not made public. And the fact that negotations are going on are certainly often common and non-confidential knowledge.
Yes, and what is the normal feature of such things? Could it be that this happens when all the parties agree that the general information, status of negotiations and outcomes can be made public? Which is precisely in line with everything I have said.
As for Electus Matari, while we may have share some enemies, I very much doubt we have shared purposes aside from the obvious and incidental shared purpose of defeating those enemies.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Evanda Char
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.15 18:44:00 -
[50]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite Their leadership considered the hero Muritor to be nothing more than a common criminal at the time he justifiably rebelled against the stupidities of Midular's regime. They were in no wise troubled by the state assassination of Muritor. Indeed, some of them celebrated it. Even now, despite all the Defiants did to support the evacuation of slaves from the Empire, their leadership still seems to consider him no more than a criminal adventurer rather than the noble freedom fighter he was.
Actually, EM, even in its leadership, were far from unified on that issue.
-Eva-
Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time |
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Evanda Char
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.08.15 18:48:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Merdaneth Star Fraction and Electus Matari are loose allies, in the sense that they have a shared purpose and shared enemies if not a shared philosophy.
We have shared enemies. We do not have a shared purpose in any except a few specific facets of our over-arching purposes. We are not so much loose allies as simply non-aggressive at present, as we pursue some of those specific facets - an end to slavery and the prevention of the expansion of the Amarr Empire by conquest.
-Eva-
Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time |
Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift
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Posted - 2009.08.16 00:49:00 -
[52]
Thinking of Star Fraction (the most organized freespace organization around, heh) and Electus Matari (vehement supporters of the government of the Tribal Republic, no matter what it does) as allies only insults both groups.
Not that any podder would ever want to do such a thing, of course. -- EVE Blog EVE Twitter |
Tablaren
Knights of Kador Freedom of Elbas
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Posted - 2009.08.20 18:33:00 -
[53]
I've normally found EM to be rather forthright in their practices, so the best of luck to you in hunting down those piratical elements who act entirely detrimental to the human condition.
Knights of Kador Public channel: K-Kdr Public |
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