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Arskaff
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:20:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Arskaff on 11/08/2009 17:24:06
Originally by: Schalac I would like to know how exactly my suggestion breaks enjoyment of the game due to some unnamed balance though.
It allows any rich man to make his desired "goal" character right from the start, instead of growing a new character or buying a character that someone already grew. Technically, with enough $ you could buy an entire corp of titan pilots with perfect skills. You could even train a group of top skills that take longer than 6 years to train. You can buy a character stronger than any character in the game, or dozen of them. You can buy a character with skills of a 20 years old character.
Some of the balance in EvE, IMO, is the fact that there is a limited number of 6-years old characters. Your suggestion would completely break that - it allows all players to pay and transform their characters to the topmost level. While it is nice that all new players get an "equal" oppertunity to level themselves, it will surely divide us into "rich" players and "poor" players. At that point, I know that many people will unsubscribe.
Edit: I admit I didn't calculate the actual amount, I'm simply against the principle as a whole, and I present my case on a "worst case scenario" basis.
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Arskaff Edited by: Arskaff on 11/08/2009 17:24:06
Originally by: Schalac I would like to know how exactly my suggestion breaks enjoyment of the game due to some unnamed balance though.
It allows any rich man to make his desired "goal" character right from the start, instead of growing a new character or buying a character that someone already grew. Technically, with enough $ you could buy an entire corp of titan pilots with perfect skills. You could even train a group of top skills that take longer than 6 years to train. You can buy a character stronger than any character in the game, or dozen of them. You can buy a character with skills of a 20 years old character.
Some of the balance in EvE, IMO, is the fact that there is a limited number of 6-years old characters. Your suggestion would completely break that - it allows all players to pay and transform their characters to the topmost level. While it is nice that all new players get an "equal" oppertunity to level themselves, it will surely divide us into "rich" players and "poor" players. At that point, I know that many people will unsubscribe.
Edit: I admit I didn't calculate the actual amount, I'm simply against the principle as a whole, and I present my case on a "worst case scenario" basis.
Did you even do the math to realize how ridiculously expensive it would be to start a new character out with high skills with the formula I provided? SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN |
Regat Kozovv
Caldari Alcothology
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:33:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Schalac You say that EVE forces us to grow at the same rate for our betterment, but then acknowledge that this is a bad game mechanic for newer players and needs to be improved. So what one is it? Is EVE fine or do we need something else added in terms of faster skill training?
Also do you speak for the entire player base that won't accept this? I started from nothing, now have loads of skills and suggested this. So you don't speak for me. And you suggest that this is a bad idea, but say that skill points don't matter? So what one is it? Do skill points matter or not, because if they don't then my plan is perfect because it doesn't matter how many skills a person has. And what, exactly, is there to be said about investing the time?
I think you might be blending a few issues together. I have no problem with the current skill system. However, it is a well known fact that new players are spending a lot of time training skills for the most basic stuff. Learning skills alone are a one or two month grind just so you can train things faster in the future. It's not the skill system in general that's bad, just the first 30-60 days when you're sitting on your hands more or less that needed a bit more attention (to which I'm pleased they're looking at it more.)
As for speaking for the player base, I believe I can safely speak for the majority. (I of course, speak nothing for you.)
Skills to matter. It's the time and ISK invested by those who worked in the game over time. EVE's entire model is built around earned rewards scaling in response to time and effort. Simply put, The majority of players and developers will not support a system where by a player can gain an advantage simply because they have more money available to them. It's a form of class discrimination, and while some game companies may go to that level to drive up sales, it is not conducive to a level playing field whereby players gain in accordance to the time and effort put in. The only reason CCP introduced RMT at all was because it was already being done in violation of the EULA, and this way they can at least monitor and control it. One need only read back to the dev logs and posts of years back to see that this was not something that was eagerly adopted.
I'm sorry if I mislead you by saying that skill points don't matter, as I'm usually replying to posts whereby the OP cannot fly every ship and wants a way to bypass the time required to do so. I usually reply with something along the lines of 'Don't worry, specialize in doing one thing well and focus on that, and in time you'll get there.'
I'm assuming you're somewhere in there as you probably wouldn't be advocating this system if you either had 1. A lot of skill points, or 2. The patience and understanding to know that you'd get there eventually.
In conclusion? No, you cannot have a pony. But if you wait and be patient, you can ride one when you grow up.
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Regat Kozovv
Caldari Alcothology
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:36:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Schalac Did you even do the math to realize how ridiculously expensive it would be to start a new character out with high skills with the formula I provided?
I have yet to see one of these ideas proposed in which the OP hasn't figured out some way to benefit or take advantage of said game mechanic. Whether it's "Everyone should be able to get a <State Issue Raven, Guardian Vexor>" or "We should be able to buy SP with $$$!", there's some aim where the OP wants to be able to do something or have something without having achieved it using the old system.
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Arskaff
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Posted - 2009.08.11 17:43:00 -
[35]
I already admitted that I didn't. It isn't the formula, it is the principle.
I understand the "irrelevancy" limit of the formula due to the exponential nature. You can even come up with a better, more balanced formula. I still don't like your idea, and I think it would ruin the game for me.
Why do you think this is such a vital improvement to the game mechanic? Why not leave the skilling mechanisms as they are?
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VonCruix
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Posted - 2009.08.11 19:06:00 -
[36]
Edited by: VonCruix on 11/08/2009 19:08:15 nm
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Rawbin Hood
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.08.11 19:30:00 -
[37]
Sounds like it would kill a part of eve that separates it from the rest.
◄Brutor► The Movement Because the human race can do better as a whole (despite these forums, they don't count) |
Raigir
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Posted - 2009.08.11 19:44:00 -
[38]
As much as I think about this countless times I always come up with the same answer: long as the players are bound to a time drivin training means the longer people's accounts will be open which also means, can you guess it ***Money for CCP***.
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Khalia Nestune
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.08.11 22:24:00 -
[39]
Never, ever. Ever.
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.08.12 08:13:00 -
[40]
Looks like the Veterans don't want the newbies to have something they didn't. They haven't got enough to worry about, it seems.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2009.08.12 08:17:00 -
[41]
SP's could perhaps be purchasable, at the rate one might expect to train over a month without implants: Roughly 1m SP per month. So, if you want to buy SP you pay CCP the equivalent of a month's subscription time and you get 1m SP to put where you want.
Income for CCP, and more ability for players to skill up their characters, but not game breaking. Make it a real money transaction to CCP, not something that can be purchased by ISK. If you want to use ISK for SP then you use it to buy an existing character.
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.08.12 12:24:00 -
[42]
I feel that 2x PLEX applied to an account should be sufficient for 2x SP gain, or for anybody stupid enough, 2x Char training.
3x...
4x...
17x....
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Bal'Ayle
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Posted - 2009.08.12 12:41:00 -
[43]
no,
this so wouldn't work, if people could buy skills, rich people who can buy plex's or who use RMT will completely out class the average joe, skill doesn't matter when everyone is using doomsday devices just for kicks, who would value proffesionals if it only takes 1-2 bil to get archaeology lvl 5 as soon as u start the game?
there just wouldn't be any point, i mean look at implants, that came about from he same line of thinking, a few mil and u can have +5 stats across the board, reducing training time by about 100 days on a 360 day plan with stats optimised, i can afford the cheap + 2 implants, reduced training time by 30 days roughly, somone who cannot afford 11 mil however has to trin for the 30 days extra even if they started at the same time as me
so what happens when u get average joe no money, training for 410 days to get all his skills up, when richy mc rich just spunks out $200 on training and gets it all in 3 days while his card clears
this also completely nullifies the threat system, 2006 players are more dangerous than 2009 players right? [[ignoring the fact they might have taken a break, gimmi so slack here]]
what happens when u see ppl in local with 2009 history, and can have more skills then 2003 players, because as you said it takes about 25-30 yrs for all skills, how will u know who to avoid, and who might not have emp compensation armor tanks?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.12 13:02:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Schalac Did you even do the math to realize how ridiculously expensive it would be to start a new character out with high skills with the formula I provided?
And that will stop people?
Go to the general forum and read the tale of the guy that brought 8.000 $ in isk even if he was caught several times.
Thinking that a guy like that would sell GTC and get a top notch character from day oen would sour the game for a lot of people.
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Cruel Intent
Caldari Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.08.12 13:10:00 -
[45]
I thought about your idea for a while and came to the conclusion that I did not know how such an idea could have so many replies.
What you are saying is this; I can grind all day long and make loads of isk, but that doesnĘt help me train skills faster. So, what would be good is if a can grind all day long to train my skills. This idea would be so different from every MMO that it would be ground breaking.
This game is one of the very few MMOĘs that says ęPlay this game to enjoy it, not to level upĘ. I have read through all your replies and not found a single supporter, yet because you have so many replies CCP will look at it.
People should reply to the ideas that could promote the game like these:
Abandened towers
Bounty hunter ideas
Cyno effects
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steave435
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.08.12 13:12:00 -
[46]
Quote: So when are we going to be allowed to buy skills?
Never.
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2009.08.12 13:14:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Bal'Ayle no,
this so wouldn't work, if people could buy skills, rich people who can buy plex's or who use RMT will completely out class the average joe, skill doesn't matter when everyone is using doomsday devices just for kicks, who would value proffesionals if it only takes 1-2 bil to get archaeology lvl 5 as soon as u start the game?
there just wouldn't be any point, i mean look at implants, that came about from he same line of thinking, a few mil and u can have +5 stats across the board, reducing training time by about 100 days on a 360 day plan with stats optimised, i can afford the cheap + 2 implants, reduced training time by 30 days roughly, somone who cannot afford 11 mil however has to trin for the 30 days extra even if they started at the same time as me
so what happens when u get average joe no money, training for 410 days to get all his skills up, when richy mc rich just spunks out $200 on training and gets it all in 3 days while his card clears
I like this post. It exemplifies everything that I hate about players of EVE. Archeology 5 is a weeks training time, two if you go right into it without proper learning skills. You can start the game with it. And from your implant thoughts I'm thinking you weren't playing when LP stores didn't exist. +3 implants used to be about the price that +5s are now.
Also like I said already multiple times. There needs to be an exponential value added to the cost of buying these skills based on rank, much in the same vain as they are already calculated in regards to training time. It would cost tens of thousands of dollars, euros, yen, bamboo sticks or whatever currency you use to buy GTCs to fit a titan pilot out of the box. Hell even a good BS pilot out of the box with a system like the one I described would be thousands of dollars to create. I don't see an overwhelming amount of people doing this.
Quote: this also completely nullifies the threat system, 2006 players are more dangerous than 2009 players right? [[ignoring the fact they might have taken a break, gimmi so slack here]]
what happens when u see ppl in local with 2009 history, and can have more skills then 2003 players, because as you said it takes about 25-30 yrs for all skills, how will u know who to avoid, and who might not have emp compensation armor tanks?
That would be some of the fun of it if you ask me. You are not supposed to know what skills your opponent has. This is the sole reason that as soon as I found out EVEMON was uploading my skills sheet I messed with the XML and then disabled that option from my EVEMON. Unless all you do is pick your targets by their date of birth this would have no impact on you what so ever.
Really though it makes me laugh at how everyone jumps right to the extreme, and I even predicted it in my OP that people would do that, and no one offered any constructive criticism at all. Look CCP is already making skill training easier with training cues and training time multipliers for the initial 1.6 million skill points. Why not add a system like the one I described for those of us already way above the ability to effectively use both of the new additions to skill training? They could even put a limit on how many advanced skills you can train in a certain amount of time due to the rigors of such intensive learning to not turn your brain to a pile of mush.
Now please no more RMT doom and gloom the rich will eat us all posting. I want real thought and discussion about this. SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN |
Cors
It's A Trap
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Posted - 2009.08.12 13:21:00 -
[48]
What's with all these rich mother ****ers who want to start playing eve and instantly be a level 90 death rogue or whatever.
Play the ****ing game like the rest of us.
Take you time, plan your character, and pay your dues time wise like the rest of us.
While you're waiting for your shiney new titan skill to finish, play the ****ing game like the rest of us. LEARN how to play.
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AngryMax
Gallente Maelstrom Crew
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Posted - 2009.08.12 19:36:00 -
[49]
Edited by: AngryMax on 12/08/2009 19:36:47 Because this isn't WoW or AoC. Because money is easy to come by in EvE, skills arent. Because it would choke economy as everyone will grind for uber skills vs participating in massive multiplay.
I don't like this idea at all.
No.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.08.12 19:49:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Schalac Did you even do the math to realize how ridiculously expensive it would be to start a new character out with high skills with the formula I provided?
So only IRL millionaires can afford to win eve? Oh that's just fine. I guess if only a couple of people in the game can get to 100 mill SP in a week it isn't too broken. How about CCP bring back the T2 BPO lottery, since unfairness is clearly ok if only a few people get a stupid advantage. Or how about giving me an offcer module BPO, 'cause I'm only one person, so it can't do any harm right?
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2009.08.13 00:04:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Karentaki
Originally by: Schalac Did you even do the math to realize how ridiculously expensive it would be to start a new character out with high skills with the formula I provided?
So only IRL millionaires can afford to win eve? Oh that's just fine. I guess if only a couple of people in the game can get to 100 mill SP in a week it isn't too broken. How about CCP bring back the T2 BPO lottery, since unfairness is clearly ok if only a few people get a stupid advantage. Or how about giving me an offcer module BPO, 'cause I'm only one person, so it can't do any harm right?
The T2 BPO lottery was totally fair. You had the same chance to win as everyone else in it and you can't blame a group of people working together to gather as many chances as possible raise their chance to win BPO's.
So much class envy coming from people in this thread though it's humorous. SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN |
Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2009.08.13 00:14:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Schalac So much class envy coming from people in this thread though it's humorous.
Yes. Determining who is "high class" by pure chance will cater to any mmo. It encourages players to invest effort in the game . That's why the the mechanic has been ditched by CCP.
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2009.08.13 00:20:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Nika Dekaia on 13/08/2009 00:20:31 Double post.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.08.13 04:24:00 -
[54]
no, it goes against the very core of eve. ------------------------------
Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
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Mike C
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.08.13 04:57:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Schalac So when are we going to be allowed to buy skills?
Never
[/thread] __________________________________________________
Originally by: Mike C Trolls - We keep Humanity alive... and kicking...
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ServantOfMask
Minmatar Foundation Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.08.13 08:29:00 -
[56]
I Propose the Banning of the OP's account.
go play something else since you seem to be irreconcilable to the way Eve works. Please leave and find a game that allows you to use your Credit Card to bypass any minor (major) inconvenience that you encounter.
"Misina Arlath
GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls." |
Mike C
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.08.13 10:03:00 -
[57]
Originally by: ServantOfMask I Propose the Banning of the OP's account.
go play something else since you seem to be irreconcilable to the way Eve works. Please leave and find a game that allows you to use your Credit Card to bypass any minor (major) inconvenience that you encounter.
Seconded __________________________________________________
Originally by: Mike C Trolls - We keep Humanity alive... and kicking...
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2009.08.13 11:48:00 -
[58]
I understand perfectly the way EVE works, but I would like to know. What exactly do you think the "core of EVE" is.
All I am offering here is a proposal for newer players to more quickly achieve a decent baseline of skills, and for older players to use their wealth and knowledge to cross train more expediently. Why people are harping on the RMT side of this I have no idea. CCP has in place systems to curtail illegal ISK purchases and if people use GTCs to buy ISK to trade for skills then that only works out in CCPs favor.
I really don't understand the blind hate for this idea though.
SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN |
Cadius Vect
CARDASSIANS
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Posted - 2009.08.13 11:51:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Cadius Vect on 13/08/2009 11:53:35 Never, if it happened I would quit eve, and I only have 8.5 mill SP but the slow progression is part of what makes the game good.
Also it's total BS that new players can't catch up after a year you should be on at least 20 million SP and by then you can pretty much do one thing fly one ship as well at a 50 or 100 mill SP player after that it's just branching out and cross training. -----------------------------------------------------------
Killboard: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Cadius+Vect-kills.html |
Bayushi Kitsuke
Gallente 0ccam's Razor Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.08.13 12:02:00 -
[60]
Buying skills with ISK? Wow Goon leaders and rich characters suddenly can get maxed out everything.. you're gonna make the game even more slanted for the upper 1% of the eve population.
Personally.... it would be nice to be able to grind XP or something so that there is an reward for playing the game on top of the skill training in place. Like killing players would give you 20% more sp and NPCs like 10%. Not game breaking, but would take a few days off of battleship 5.
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