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Invelious
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.08.11 13:29:00 -
[1]
Just tossing a respect shot at the minnies for bringing the fights last night. Had some good ones there, entertaining seeing the carrier drop, its saved your rokh thats for sure . But all and all was some clean fights, no blobs so we had a good time, hope the feeling was mutual.
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Bashiri
Absinthe Brothers Consortium
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Posted - 2009.08.11 16:57:00 -
[2]
Who cares did you see that bs we killed last night.
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Al'Gouhti
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.11 18:05:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Bashiri Who cares did you see that bs we killed last night.
Was that the SF bs? If that is the case, then... Go you, I bow in acknowledgment of your great achievement
Originally by: Mr Reeth Is this a thread whose sole purpose is to bait and bash SF?
Classless... utterly classless.
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Sahriah BloodStone
Caldari Burning Avarice
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Posted - 2009.08.12 13:00:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Al'Gouhti
Originally by: Bashiri Who cares did you see that bs we killed last night.
Was that the SF bs? If that is the case, then... Go you, I bow in acknowledgment of your great achievement
I believe he said Minmatar Milita, not Star Faction, take your sarcastism elsewhere.
The minmatar have given us some great fights over the last two weeks, a time filled with much enjoyment and learning for me, props 07
---------------------- Sahriah Bloodstone Burning Avarice
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Invelious
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.08.12 13:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone
Originally by: Al'Gouhti
Originally by: Bashiri Who cares did you see that bs we killed last night.
Was that the SF bs? If that is the case, then... Go you, I bow in acknowledgment of your great achievement
I believe he said Minmatar Milita, not Star Faction, take your sarcastism elsewhere.
The minmatar have given us some great fights over the last two weeks, a time filled with much enjoyment and learning for me, props 07
They are just sour that they in fact lost a BS, along with a Stealh Bomber, and we spanked a apoc and mega and forced them out of tuo that night. It is evident this affected them when they so desperatly tried to kill me yesterday in Tuomuta with cheap and pathetic station camp and local smack talk. They failed at destroying me I might add, and have failed to do so since the begining of this war, but they got a frieghter kill, good for them. Alas, here we are talking about SF when the props are to the minnies for bringing real, proper engagements. Props to the minmatar.
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Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.12 16:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Invelious with cheap and pathetic station camp and local smack talk.
Were I looking to make an argument over "smack" I would first muzzle that pathetic little dog you allow to fly with Ammarian colors, or are your leaders incapable of discipline?
to clarify your other complaints,
1. We camped all three war target corps twice that day. They refuse to fight; they loose access to meaningful ships. Such is war.
2. We chased the entire Amarrian blob around low sec with the Minmatar. Where Star Fraction can indeed be shot by all.
3. Always the enemy ran and hid, not wanting to battle. There was no valiant stand made and your own fleet commanders disbanded the operation out of fear.
calling Star Fraction maneuvers "cheap" and "pathetic" and then cowering from them does not paint the Empire is a positive light. It implies you can not overcome "cheap" and"pathetic" enemies.
I expect better and I dislike how my expectations have continued to lower. Not you in specific, but the general bar-lowering quality in the Militia. |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.12 16:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Invelious Props to the minmatar.
Indeed. They saw the enemy and rallied to attack it. There is Brutor blood in all of them. |
Al'Gouhti
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.12 20:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone
Originally by: Al'Gouhti
Originally by: Bashiri Who cares did you see that bs we killed last night.
Was that the SF bs? If that is the case, then... Go you, I bow in acknowledgment of your great achievement
I believe he said Minmatar Milita, not Star Faction, take your sarcastism elsewhere.
The minmatar have given us some great fights over the last two weeks, a time filled with much enjoyment and learning for me, props 07
No I will not take my sarcasm elsewhere, when Bashiri drags us into a thread where we clearly have no business, it becomes my buisness and I will mock him in wichever way I see fit.
Originally by: Mr Reeth Is this a thread whose sole purpose is to bait and bash SF?
Classless... utterly classless.
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Invelious
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.08.12 21:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
Originally by: Invelious with cheap and pathetic station camp and local smack talk.
Were I looking to make an argument over "smack" I would first muzzle that pathetic little dog you allow to fly with Ammarian colors, or are your leaders incapable of discipline?
to clarify your other complaints,
1. We camped all three war target corps twice that day. They refuse to fight; they loose access to meaningful ships. Such is war.
2. We chased the entire Amarrian blob around low sec with the Minmatar. Where Star Fraction can indeed be shot by all.
3. Always the enemy ran and hid, not wanting to battle. There was no valiant stand made and your own fleet commanders disbanded the operation out of fear.
calling Star Fraction maneuvers "cheap" and "pathetic" and then cowering from them does not paint the Empire is a positive light. It implies you can not overcome "cheap" and"pathetic" enemies.
I expect better and I dislike how my expectations have continued to lower. Not you in specific, but the general bar-lowering quality in the Militia.
Tommy, I was having supper man, what where you actually camping? I finished eating, hit planet side and spent time with my son and GF, came back, formed fleet, undocked and we went on a roam. What did you actually achieve there?
P.S. I took the other war dec corps with me from Tuomuta, you know that system you were apparently dominating at that time.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 01:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Invelious
P.S. I took the other war dec corps with me from Tuomuta, you know that system you were apparently dominating at that time.
Yeah you took them in frigates leaving their battleships trapped in the station. Nice going.
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
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Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 02:43:00 -
[11]
respect to the glorious dead on this dusk when sets upon a day of battle.
In victory we have learned, in defeat you would be wise to learn as well.
respect to Yuzzerman, the most mad of bastards ever to be birthed from the round hips of a minmatar's womb. Brave beyond compare and as wild with gunslinger abandon as any Star Fraction radical. You are a credit to your race.
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Invelious
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.08.13 06:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Invelious
P.S. I took the other war dec corps with me from Tuomuta, you know that system you were apparently dominating at that time.
Yeah you took them in frigates leaving their battleships trapped in the station. Nice going.
Angry are you, like a child wanting the bottle, but cries when it doesn't get it. Did you stomp your foot when you said that Jadder.
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 08:18:00 -
[13]
You seem to be missing something.
She considered forcing you into a tactically insignificant (for the growing engagement) ship, so that you can only scream your impotent rage into the ethers of Galnet, a tactical victory.
Whilst we relaxed sat waiting for you, your "supper" appeared to be bile vomited onto the IGS.
And, again, I have to mention that when you do open your mouth on the subject, you again only insult your allies who attempted to take part in the war. With friends like you... well, frankly, I'm amazed you have any. --------------------------------------------
SF Recruiting |
Al'Gouhti
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 09:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone
I believe he said Minmatar Milita, not Star Faction, take your sarcastism elsewhere.
another point I forgot was that the only BS Bashiri participated in killing on the said date was a Star Fraction BS, you can go look it is on the Amarr militia killboard aswell as the Minmatar one, wich by all means, must mean that we are your enemy.
I do hope that your enjoyment of your resent engagments will mean that the amarrians will start fighting and not hide within the safty of dockingrange like the cowards I have always taken them for.
Originally by: Mr Reeth Is this a thread whose sole purpose is to bait and bash SF?
Classless... utterly classless.
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Foolish Bob
Caldari FireTech In Tea We Trust
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Posted - 2009.08.13 10:45:00 -
[15]
wow still the same arguments, eh?
JC: They fly most of their fleets in frigs and cruisers. In order to seem like we matter we must declare that our goal is to stop them from getting in battleships! ... JC: Are they still in frigs and cruisers? SF minion: Yes, sir. JC: Aha! Proof of our awesomeness! We are totally having an effect, see?
Good to see there are still some constants in the universe ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in.
I'm also not a unique and special snowflake.
Everything I say should be taken in that context. |
Sahriah BloodStone
Caldari Burning Avarice
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Posted - 2009.08.13 10:46:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Al'Gouhti
another point I forgot was that the only BS Bashiri participated in killing on the said date was a Star Fraction BS, you can go look it is on the Amarr militia killboard aswell as the Minmatar one, wich by all means, must mean that we are your enemy.
I do hope that your enjoyment of your resent engagments will mean that the amarrians will start fighting and not hide within the safty of dockingrange like the cowards I have always taken them for.
In advance i apologize for the long communication but this is frustrating me
Firstly both Minmatar and Amarr foolishly send the tactical data from kills made of the battlefield to the killboards regardless if they are minmatar milita, Star faction or some random neutal.
Both sides 'forget' to send kills and losses. Both sides run and hide when outnumbered Both sides try to outnumber the enemy before entering a tactical engagement
All this nonsense about one side being cowards and one side being valient no matter WHICH side is accusing is rediculous. Star faction run when the milita form fleets to support those at war with them, i have experianced this at least 4 times. Those corps at war avoid engagements with SF when they are outnumbered. Both sides use tactical knowledge to avoid senseless losses (although they still happen).
So quit this whole 'omg we're better' stance, that goes to everyone, if anyone honestly thinks their side is braver or more valient they are wrong. This is war, everyone uses the same tactics as everyone else at some point.
Star faction is at war with a small portion of the Amarr milita, they do not experiance high losses for this reason, but on the other hand we do not experiance more losses for this reason also.
I can respect every pilots ability, hence why i responded to this communique in the first place. This was supposed to be a positive message, not flaming or smacking and unfortunetly some pilots cannot appreciate that fact. I am sorry to say i am disappointed Bashiri could not honor the intentions of this thread, every pilot has their ego, but please let us keep to the spirit
---------------------- Sahriah Bloodstone Burning Avarice
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Zverofaust
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Posted - 2009.08.13 11:22:00 -
[17]
Quote: So quit this whole 'omg we're better' stance
But... we are better.
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The Yzzerman
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2009.08.13 11:52:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Invelious Just tossing a respect shot at the minnies for bringing the fights last night. Had some good ones there, entertaining seeing the carrier drop, its saved your rokh thats for sure . But all and all was some clean fights, no blobs so we had a good time, hope the feeling was mutual.
Yes we have had some nice battles those last weeks. I have total respect for Amarr people and I hope we can have more great battle in near future.
Yzzerman
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The Yzzerman
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2009.08.13 11:54:00 -
[19]
Edited by: The Yzzerman on 13/08/2009 11:54:08
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 13/08/2009 02:59:03 Edit: (more to the topic)
respect to the glorious dead on this dusk which sets upon a day of battle.
In victory we have learned more of our enemy, in defeat you would be wise to learn as well.
respect to Yuzzerman, the most mad of bastards ever to be birthed from the round hips of a minmatar's womb. Brave beyond compare and as wild with gunslinger abandon as any Star Fraction radical. You are a credit to your race.
respect to Calixo (sp?) of the Amarr for taking a risk when so many Amarr dare not. You died, but you died a man. you have my respect. those brothers in arms that aided you, they have my respect well, though they as well were ended.
no respect to those who down shipped to fly interceptors and left your comrades to face battle with little help from you. Bravery is more than a vaunted quality to be admired, it has true tactical effect. Perhaps the Amarr Militia has some heart left in it, but there also is rot that has seeped in from zones previously unknown and untapped the warriors of the Golden Fleet.
no respect to the Minamtar who jammed a Star Fraction vessel. Know that your ship remains viable and not a husk in space only due to the respect my Commander has for your Militia. I was prepared to end you in defence of my comrade, but my Commander denied me and so we tolerated your failure.
Discipline in battle must be learned, and I favor the stick.
I could/would never done it with out my brave pilots that i fly with. Hail hoffa!!
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 12:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone With all due respect, Star faction remain generally unchallanged because they are at war with 3 corporations out of the entire Milita force. You win by picking off the people you are at war with who are part of much larger fleets and using the Minmatar Milita as cannon fodder.
The three most significant corporations of the 24th Crusade mind - usually a collection of pilots who would otherwise make up close to 50% of the available Militia battleship strength. We have intel captures from 24th Crusade planning meetings where this fact is roundly lamented by 24th commanders. If SF had not decced these target corps its estimated that daily amarrian fleet strength would be improved by around 15-25 extra battleship hulls which because of our intervention must remain docked and (to steal a term from Rodj) entirely impotent in Tuomota hisec station.
And lets not forget, whenever the 24th believe its in their advantage to do so, they will criminally-flag in view of gate guns to engage SF ships. This can leave a dozen Star Fraction vessels opposed by 40-50 ships potentially. There is no hard and fast rule preventing this Sahriah Bloodstone - typically only the timidity of the Amarrian fleet commanders comes into play as they choose flight over fight.
And 24th Crusade corporations could help their decced allies of course. Nobody is stopping 24th Crusade members from wardeccing the Star Fraction and flying alongside Absinthe, PIE and Deus at the moment. If those corporations are being abandoned by their allies and listening to nothing but vapid excuses and evasions from "loyal" amarrian crusaders that says more about their organizational shortcomings than our cunning wardec choices really.
Quote: So when you say 'A largely successful period of combat victories and generally unchallenged presence in the Kamela System' you should really add 'Against 3 corps with a total of 189 pilots' out of 2871 pilots currently in the milita..you know just for realism purposes
I disagree. We have driven the entire 24th Crusade from Kamela - this fact is largely beyond challenge. Even the offices of the leading 24th Crusade corporations have gone unrented and the general price of real estate has declined sharply from its peak in the weeks after we moved in. It used to be their collective muster point - now they are forced to camp hisec and muster their fleets there.
We have also radically reduced the effective fleet strength of the 24th Crusade as a whole by preventing the three most significant 24th Crusader corporations from deploying battleship hulls at any time when SF counter forces are active.
You can talk of 189 pilots from 2871 and its a meaningless statistic. Most evenings the 24th Crusade will be able to muster 25-50 pilots for active patrols in the warzone. When a third of those (and up to 50-60% of potential battleship pilots) are wardecced by the Star Fraction you can calculate for yourself the impact that is having on the warzone.
The 24th never has and never will see 2871 pilots on the front line. We are wardecced against the best and brightest of the 100 they do see. If they are failing and reduced to fleeing combat in frigate hulls most evenings that doesn't leave much acclaim for the rest who will struggle to put 1/100th of their paper strength into space on an average day.
The reality is we have crushed multiple 24th Crusade corps. We have driven others from the warzone entirely. We have restricted those that remain to frigate class vessels while our fleet assets are active. While it is true we cannot directly impact the cause of plexing or territorial dispute between the TLF and 24th Crusade membership we can certainly impact the balance of vessel class deployed between those combatents in open space and this we have done to great effect.
Take a look at daily fleet compositions on the respective public kill registers from now and 3/6/9 months ago. The impact is obvious.
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
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Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 14:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jade Constantine The impact is obvious.
for anyone who understands tactics it is.
This seems to be us and the minnies and the better Amarr FCs.
It does not seem to include Amarr cheerleaders on IGS.
all the info is public and available |
Horak Thor
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.08.13 17:47:00 -
[22]
I dont think anyone in the minmatar militia questions the positive effect star fraction are creating for us.
once a 25-30 man amarr bs bc (mainly bc) fleet with logistics support were waiting for us on one side of a gate i believe in kamela. we were in about the same number of ships lacking logistics, when unannounced 12 members of star fraction in a few bs and bc appeared and jumped ahead of us in the 30 - 40 seconds it took us to jump through after them the amarr fleet was happily on its way to being half its strength.
so full respect to the skill of star fraction pilots.
but also full respect to amarr who are actually quite good :) once we liberate lantorn and sisiede maybe we'll go easy on your systems [url=http://www.enquilon.com/omg/killboard4/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=60783] [/url] |
Havohej
Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
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Posted - 2009.08.13 18:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zverofaust
Quote: So quit this whole 'omg we're better' stance
But... we are better.
Confirming this.
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
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Al'Gouhti
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.13 19:00:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone
In advance i apologize for the long communication but this is frustrating me
Yes, I can see that you are frustrated and it is because you are misunderstanding my intention
I will reserve my right to mock ppl who instead of contribute to the topic try and beat there chest and brag about some insicnificant kill of a BS. And then other ppl yell at us that we cower in the station and dont leave the docking area is just pure irony, since its a practice that we see used, too often by our enemys in the amarr melitia
Originally by: Mr Reeth Is this a thread whose sole purpose is to bait and bash SF?
Classless... utterly classless.
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Sahriah BloodStone
Caldari Burning Avarice
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Posted - 2009.08.14 02:39:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Al'Gouhti
Yes, I can see that you are frustrated and it is because you are misunderstanding my intention
I will reserve my right to mock ppl who instead of contribute to the topic try and beat there chest and brag about some insicnificant kill of a BS. And then other ppl yell at us that we cower in the station and dont leave the docking area is just pure irony, since its a practice that we see used, too often by our enemys in the amarr melitia
I am in no way misunderstanding your intention, it follows the same path as bashiri's..bash the enemy, you are no better then he is, maybe you should raise your standards.
To Jade - Yes you are perfectly correct that you have attacked the 3 most active corporations, however while it is a side effect of your presence (yes you did good, congrats) it is the general milita's fault that those dec'd do not undock in battleships, you do not 'stop' them, their own cowadice does.
Apart from those newer pilots, those that can field battleships choose not to for various reasons. Many of our good Fleet commanders are indisposed lately for personal reasons and although there are some other FC's many including myself choose not to lead battleships because of inexperiance. Once our proper FC's return i assure you there will be a change, i will see to it personally, i am sick of the general attitude of our milita and it is going to change.
Regardless, the purpose of this entire thing was to congragulate our enemies, respect is earned and both SF and the minmatar have mine, however irrelevent it is to them.
---------------------- Sahriah Bloodstone Burning Avarice
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Al'Gouhti
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.14 06:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone
I am in no way misunderstanding your intention, it follows the same path as bashiri's..bash the enemy, you are no better then he is, maybe you should raise your standards.
But there are a sicnificant diference. My initial bash at Bashiri was to give him a hint that braging about a single BS kill in this thread was wrong and is counterproductive in regards to the op's intention. and if he continue to do stuff like that I will continue to mock him for it. And since he is not defending his own actions I will asume that he knows it was wrong.
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone
Regardless, the purpose of this entire thing was to congragulate our enemies, respect is earned and both SF and the minmatar have mine, however irrelevent it is to them.
thank you.
Originally by: Mr Reeth Is this a thread whose sole purpose is to bait and bash SF?
Classless... utterly classless.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.14 15:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone To Jade - Yes you are perfectly correct that you have attacked the 3 most active corporations, however while it is a side effect of your presence (yes you did good, congrats) it is the general milita's fault that those dec'd do not undock in battleships, you do not 'stop' them, their own cowadice does.
Well thats a philosophical question really thats common to situations of warfare. One side never really "wins" as much as it removes the desire to fight from the other. I don't think we've gotten to that point yet however since the 24th Crusade is capable of avoiding SF ships during certain times of the day and evading confrontation in lighter ships otherwise.
I would agree with you completely on your main point though - it is rank cowardice on the part of Absinthe, PIE and DEUS to avoid battleship grade confrontration though. They have the numbers, they have the allies, they have everything they need to succeed except the will to try and in this the blame can probably more rightly be laid at the feet of the old men of the Amarrian movement like Rodj Blake and Gaven Lokri and that ilk who have preached the "irrelevance" of Star Fraction so long they are incapable of seeing our intervention as a military reality and would rather reduce their own capability to frigates and evasive shadows than admit they were wrong. This submission to rigid dogma is the achilles heel of the Amarrian loyalist psyche though and no great surprise to those in progressive political movements.
Quote: Apart from those newer pilots, those that can field battleships choose not to for various reasons.
Mostly desire to avoid risk Sahriah. We have this in their words from local declarations and private councils alike. There is a cult of "kill/death ratio" in the 24th Crusade where one's stature and standing is measured in the weight of concord kill mails you harvest against losses suffered. This means the surest route to acclaim is to fly interceptors and ensure a single lick of laser fire against every opposing ship that goes down while immediately fleeing yourself if any opponent so much as looks at your vessel.
This leads to a surfeit of pilots with 99.9999% efficiency ratings on paper who lack the courage to stand in the line of battle and risk a full warship in the fray. This is why from 100 active pilots the 24th Crusade struggles to find a half dozen prepared to undock in a battleship. Since the battleship in combat will still yield the same boasting rights for kills made as a Crusader class ceptor does at a far greater risk. Everyone else is expected to risk heavy hulls yet the efficiency-slaves of the crusade never want to tarnish their own statistics by taking personal responsibility for that risk.
Quote: Many of our good Fleet commanders are indisposed lately for personal reasons and although there are some other FC's many including myself choose not to lead battleships because of inexperiance. Once our proper FC's return i assure you there will be a change, i will see to it personally, i am sick of the general attitude of our milita and it is going to change.
You should consider something Sahriah and consider it carefully. Do you think it is possible that the cause itself is corrupt? That the reason it is impossible for idealism and self-sacrifice, courage and common-feeling to exist in the 24th Crusade is because the Amarrian nationalist movement itself is a diseased and evil creation that attracts only the most worthless of personalities and rank criminal intellects to glory in the suppression of freedom and rejoice in the destruction of hope and liberation?
I ask this very seriously because you strike me as an essentially decent pilot swept up into a thoroughly indecent militia entity.
Quote: ... respect is earned and both SF and the minmatar have mine, however irrelevent it is to them.
Respect is never irrelevent. But I urge you to consider my question.
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
Garst Tyrell
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.14 19:03:00 -
[28]
Confirming I "never" undock in a battleship.
And somehow minmitar fleets keep dying. You might want to revaluate your tactics. "I long for death, not because I seek peace, but because I seek the war eternal" |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.08.14 19:06:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Garst Tyrell Confirming I "never" undock in a battleship.
And somehow minmitar fleets keep dying. You might want to revaluate your tactics.
your bravery is not proof of the 24th crusader's bravery. Your fellows can't ride your coat tails nor hide behind your honor. |
Zverofaust
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Posted - 2009.08.14 20:55:00 -
[30]
It has become quite obvious to every Minmatar militia pilot that at this stage the 24th Imperial Crusade and its affiliates are a force on the run.
In the past several weeks the Amarr militia have engaged in little more than guerilla tactics against a far larger and more powerful force. Plying the spacelanes in interceptors, frigates and the odd cruiser, their tactics have switched from defeating us to merely harassing us on a pathetically small scale, managing to destroy a few ships here and there with ambushes and fast attacks (which, I admit, they do quite well) but hopelessly outgunned.
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