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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.15 00:08:00 -
[1]
I can hear your thoughts... owe no not again blah blah... The only reason I suggest this again is because things have changed that now allow such a ship to be built and not unbalance the game in any way. Fuel bays...
Long ago when I was a newb with no clue I suggested a "jump shuttle". Why? Because frankly 0.0 space is pretty inaccessible to newer characters. Sure you can take an alt noob and go explore who cares if you get podded, use cloakers, jump bridges(if you "know people") etc etc. What I'm shooting for is a way for the non capital pilot or even an established pilot to move around like we use shuttles in highsec. Quickly and effectively. He can't carry allot. He can't fight. Just to move the pilot from place to place. So here it is...
Skills - Yacht I (rank 8) - requires Adv Spaceship Com 3 Jump Drive Operation I
Like BC's this would cover all of the Yacht's regardless of weather it was 4 races or just one ship. The important thing here is that all the skill that need to be lvl 5 are rank 1's. Sure there are quite a few of them but they will all be needed later and unlike Capital ships you don't need ASC 5 or BS 5 to be jump capable.
Stats - 200 m3 cargo area 5k m3 fuel bay max jump range of 10 ly jump fuel consumption 200
Strong defenses. With no fitting slots it will need them. Something like Freighters.
Speed should be the fastest of any capital. Say 150% of a carrier(140m/s?). Inertia mod handling etc should all be very high for its size but obviously not as good as a BS. Better than an Orca though. In the end this is a big ass engine and jump drive with a ****pit attached.
Prior to fuel bays the cargo area would be a problem. If you had enough space to hold fuel then it could in theory be abused to run cargo etc. My numbers might be wrong but I'm sure some dev could figure out the proper balance pretty quickly.
The only reason I raised jump range to 10 ly is an attempt to allow these to keep up with people in capital ships that have calibration. You could probably even raise it higher. With calibration sure you are completely out jumping carriers but with no guns you aren't going to do much but get pwned. Might save a little on cyno costs but the goal here isn't to break the bank on fuel costs.
Size - Mass - 200k Volume - 500-900k Packed Volume - 100-250k
The goal here is to allow say a carrier pilot to place his Yacht in his ship maintenance bay Jump from lowsec to his new 0.0 home then jump back out in his Yacht. Also it would allow a Anshar pilot to move 1-3 of them packed up. So if say 3 people jumped Yacht's in to pull carriers out during a retreat one JF load could carry the Yacht's out. This fits with the size of the ship anyway. Unlike carriers etc this ship has little to no fluff(drone bay, corp hangars etc). So it shouldn't take up allot of space/mass.
Ship Bonus's - Yacht Skill - +1 warp core stability per lvl. Electronic Warfare immunity at lvl 5.
I'm sure some people think that it is excessive to give Ewar immunity but even lowering the rank to say 6 you are paying all those skill points just to get that one ability. It's pretty much the only defense this ship has. To run away. Maybe even bubble immunity? I'll leave that to the devs to balance.
Construction costs/BPO - 6 x Capital Armor Plates = 27 mil 6 x Capital Construction Parts = 22.2 mil 10 x Capital Jump Drive = 69 mil 10 x Capital Propulsion Engine = 44 mil 6 x Capital Shield Emitter = 30.6 mil
total 192.8 mil mineral value To compare and orca is 344 mil. My mineral values in MLcalc need to be updated...:( Not super expensive, but also not a ship you just go get blown up for fun.
cont...
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.15 00:14:00 -
[2]
...
I didn't mention above that this ship would be able to use stargates and go into highsec. It can be manufactured like Orca's.
I will stop bogging down in details... I think people see what I'm trying to make. In a way it does the same job people currently use JC's for. It allows you to get around without being constantly under attack. Yeah I know 0.0 life is hard blah blah blah. Its by no means an I win button. It just allows someone who hasn't focused on capital ships or doesn't have the skills just yet to go into 0.0 space without making a mad dash of death for 15-25 hops twice a day.
More importantly it would be easy for the devs to make with existing tech. The artwork is the biggest problem and with no turrets etc I bet that is pretty easy. It doesn't unbalance anything. You pay a price for what you get. Fuel costs. Plus the ship is going to constantly be at risk of getting blown up.
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ark maphar
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Posted - 2009.08.15 01:55:00 -
[3]
wait, so its a capital ship? why, just make tech 2 shuttles using the shuttle models we have now.
/signed
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.15 02:34:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Darkdood on 15/08/2009 02:34:07 Sorry I typed this out a bit faster than I might have liked. When I made my jump shuttle post one of peoples biggest gripes was that jump drives were huge blah blah. IE the Sin can't go very far because they push the very limits on the tech just to do it at all...
So yes this is a mini capital just like the Orca. I think part of the point is to also give people a shinny new toy. Something big and pretty to strut around in Jita with saying look at me I'm cool or whatever.
I'm only an amateur coder but the only real work that would need to go into this is the artwork. Everything else is established in the game and should be easy to cut and paste code to make it all work. Thus its an opportunity for some artist to add some major fluff but useful fluff. Best part of all is that unless I'm dead wrong about how they code things it really should take very little dev time to add it.
Think 1/2 way between the size of a BS and an Orca.
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Corian Teranos
Caldari Critical Mass Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.15 02:46:00 -
[5]
/Signed but remove the advanced spaceship command requirement and cap componants from the bpo make it easier on the noobs and use straight mineral requirements instead
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ark maphar
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Posted - 2009.08.15 03:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Darkdood Edited by: Darkdood on 15/08/2009 02:34:07 Sorry I typed this out a bit faster than I might have liked. When I made my jump shuttle post one of peoples biggest gripes was that jump drives were huge blah blah. IE the Sin can't go very far because they push the very limits on the tech just to do it at all...
So yes this is a mini capital just like the Orca. I think part of the point is to also give people a shinny new toy. Something big and pretty to strut around in Jita with saying look at me I'm cool or whatever.
I'm only an amateur coder but the only real work that would need to go into this is the artwork. Everything else is established in the game and should be easy to cut and paste code to make it all work. Thus its an opportunity for some artist to add some major fluff but useful fluff. Best part of all is that unless I'm dead wrong about how they code things it really should take very little dev time to add it.
Think 1/2 way between the size of a BS and an Orca.
but a shuttle is basically a framework around the pod with engines, it would take thousands of times less energy to move a small littlething then a sin.
i would think it should at the most be cruier sized
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.15 03:58:00 -
[7]
ark - you sound like me a yr ago. For whatever reason the devs wanted to keep the Jump drives in the capital ship arena. That is why I suggested this in the way I did. It gives rich players something to show off. At the same time it gives newbs a useful tool.
I picked the skills the way I did for a reason. The prereqs boil down to...
science 5 warp drive op 5 navigation 5 spaceship command 5
All of which are rank 1 skills. All of which you need to fly a "real capital" anyway. The assumption is that if you are training to fly this the next step is to get the skills to fly a carrier/dread. The only training time you lose is whatever you spend on the Yacht skill itself.
Its not a perfect idea but if you want more people to move to 0.0 this is a good start.
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ark maphar
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Posted - 2009.08.15 04:05:00 -
[8]
yeah, i see what you are thinking, but still.....200mil for a ship thats only purpose is to move a person around?
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galphi
Gallente Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.08.15 04:20:00 -
[9]
Yes, it needs to be very pretty. I'm thinking Gold Magnate sort of pretty
It does seem very pricey for what it does though. Reduce the building components somewhat and it'd be more feasible.
/signed
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.15 05:05:00 -
[10]
Frankly I think this could also be used as a substitute for a completely failed game mechanic... clone vat bays. It would be a huge boon to small to mid sized corps and alliances also.
Say you have 10 people in corp that can fly a BS pretty well, but none of those people have BS 5 or ASC 5. So you have them train jump drive op first. They will need it anyway. You are a small alliance so no moms, and no titans. You get 5 carriers and 5 dreads. You are going to jump to a lowsec system bust a POS and jump out.
Your 10 non cap pilots each place a BS or BC in the hangar of a carrier. They then get in their Yacht and jump with the fleet. On the other side they switch out for the BS and join the fight. If they die they get back in the Yacht and leave. If not they switch back out for the jump home.
The only person who has to slow boat there is the cyno pilot. If you had an extra carrier to carry a Yacht to the fight he could even exchange his ship out and jump home.
Sure it is an advantage. It also has risk. If the POS jumps in a 50 ship defense fleet and wipes out half you fleet you lose those Yacht's in the carriers ship bays etc etc. The reward is balanced by equal risk.
FYI - The largest volume BS is the Hyperion at 495k. Carriers have a 1 mil bay and moms have 2.5 mil. So if a Yacht was 450-500k just like a BS if would go hand in hand with carriers and BS/BC support ships all jumping to target. 2 per carrier 5 per mom. Carriers could actually do there job. Carry smaller ships to and from the fight.
I'm hesitant to suggest this but if you wanted to up the cool factor do this... Reduce the cargo bay to 20 m3. Add a 2-300 m3 corp hangar. Add a 50-75k Ship Maintenance bay.
Why? Cause it gives newer players all the feel and coolness of carriers, without screwing up game balance. Its like a starter ship for 0.0. The smallest cruiser in the game is the stabber at 80k(the T3 Loki is also 80k). The only thing you could fit in the ship bay would be shuttles(5k) and Frigates(10k Navitas - 29.5k Incusus). Which would give you more flexibility, but no real power. In the end you need somewhere to leave the Yacht. The main abuse I see is it gives you a ship maintenance bay and the ability to change modules. In highsec wars that is a big advantage that atm only the Orca gives you. Of course so is getting your 250 million isk Yacht blown to bits. This just complicates things and makes balancing super hard though. So probably a bad idea.
The basic simple idea is what works. Small cargo space with a jump drive and a fuel bay.
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.15 05:11:00 -
[11]
So change the BPO to be raw minerals like anything else with 5-10 capital jump drives thrown in just like the Blackops are. Balancing the build cost is easy. Cost should defiantly be 100+ mil mineral value though. Having this cost less than a BS seems to low.
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.16 02:27:00 -
[12]
Anyone else?
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Naj Ymoch
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Posted - 2009.08.16 03:11:00 -
[13]
I was about to flame you for suggesting a "Capital Shuttle" and that it sounded ******ed. Then it reminded me of one of the opening storyline events of the game 'Freelancer', where a pretty hefty-sized ship carrying a foreign diplomat was bombed by some terrorist organization. I wouldn't mind seeing something like this in EVE, as long as it really was high-end content and not available to everyone.
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voiddragon
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Posted - 2009.08.16 12:25:00 -
[14]
Edited by: voiddragon on 16/08/2009 12:26:21 This ship has the biggest jump range at 22.5 LY... immunity to ewar? Want a cloak with that too? Bubble immunity? I think you went too far. I mean, requesting civilian ship with a jump drive is one thing, but requesting a civilian ship with immunity to everything is really pushing it. No matter what the requirements are.
If you want a normal sized ship that can jump I think it should be something cruier sized, no fittings, no cargo bay but a fuel bay, jump range about 3-4 LY (6.75 - 9 LY), barely any armor or shielding ect... In otherwords, redundant except for the fact it has a jump drive, warp drive and thrusters. You now have a civil ship with a jump drive that can be used by players who want to be able to move large distances without using jump clones.
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2009.08.16 13:22:00 -
[15]
Far too expensive/large. If anything, it should only be slightly larger than a frigate, and only cost a little under the value of a cruiser.
200m3 cargo is still exploitable to do ammo runs (unless that could be intended?).
And (but only IMO) the jump cost is too much for a ship that has no capability other than travelling; reduce the fuel bay to 200m3 and the cost to 1.
As for defences; hell no to the ewar immunity, replace that with the ability to jump without needing a cyno (if it would even need one in the first place, I'm not entirely sure on all the mechanics involved). Have it as agile as a cruiser, about as fast as a battleship (engine/jumpdrive tradeoff) and the HP of a destroyer (maybe T2 resists, but that might be OTT). With it's ability to jump it can easily flee if there's any danger.
On another note, how do you like your pods in the morning? |
Dragonlord Pern
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Posted - 2009.08.16 13:48:00 -
[16]
I prefer a liner than a yacht. Allow 4 pods to be carried at once plus the pilot and then it will make life a lot easier for ppl.
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voiddragon
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Posted - 2009.08.16 14:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dragonlord Pern I prefer a liner than a yacht. Allow 4 pods to be carried at once plus the pilot and then it will make life a lot easier for ppl.
So a civilian jump ship liner? That could be useful for 0.0 and low sec people to transport new pilots into their system rather than the current scheme of "Yeah, give us your stuff and fly through the gatecamps to our home system".
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Dimitrios Ypsilanti
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Posted - 2009.08.16 20:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Darkdood Yacht...
Seems to solve the same problem that jump clones solve. Only not as well.
I don't know what it really adds to the game.
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ark maphar
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Posted - 2009.08.16 20:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dimitrios Ypsilanti
Originally by: Darkdood Yacht...
Seems to solve the same problem that jump clones solve. Only not as well.
I don't know what it really adds to the game.
its made for smaller jumps, exept no cool down, seems balanced to me
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Taladool
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Posted - 2009.08.16 22:17:00 -
[20]
Interesting Idea, Seen it before, but Lets go with it.
As said lose the capital comps for it, make it BC size or bigger but not capital.
Jump range with cal skills around 20 is ok as well, no fittings ofc, and a leap of faith jump drive, you don't jump to cyno's you jump to large gravity wells like a sun, You pick the system you want to goto and end up at a random location around that system, maybe even in it, within the ships jump range, so you effectivly picking your direction not your destination
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Cyzin Jita
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Posted - 2009.08.17 01:34:00 -
[21]
make tech 2 shuttles using the shuttle models we have now.
/signed
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.18 04:56:00 -
[22]
I'm purely spit balling. The whole lvl 5 ewar immunity was more of a whim, but you have to admit for once it would give people a reason to get a lvl 5 skill other than its required to get to next tear. Frankly also it does NOTHING to help the ship accept stop normal scrams. Its not like you have guns to shoot back. They can ewar the crap out of you means nothing accept stopping you from jumping. Which was the whole point. 1-4 points... and if you go all the way then they have to use a dictor/bubble etc or you get away. Which is pretty much how shuttles are in lowsec. You ether have a super fast locking ship ready or they are gone.
As far as the size and using a capital vs t2 shuttle shrug ether way is fine with me. I personally think the true Yacht / Capital ship is the better way to go. It puts people into the same frame of mind needed for 0.0. Which is were this ship would be used.
It also allows the devs to balance it properly by giving it a larger volume inside a ship maintenance bay etc etc. If it really was shuttle/cruiser size you could have entire recon teams jump into somewhere with just 1-2 carriers. Seems a bit over powered.
Having it be a super large BS graphically and the same size statistically gives them the ability to make it pretty and flashy and big and useful but not so over powered that it dominates the game play.
It also allows them to give it a solid amount of health shield armor etc. Which in a place like 0.0 lets face it you will need if you don't have repair modules. No its not going to tank 15 dreads but even a shuttle can handle a few volleys from a frigate before it pops.
As far as jump range goes I think its pretty irrelevant that its longer. Odds are you are going to be traveling along an established path of cyno's that are all 5-10 ly apart anyway. My goal by making it slightly longer was to give the newer pilots that don't have calibration 1/2 a chance to keep up with a older pilot that has calibration at 3-4 and is in a dread. At lvl 4 a dread is 9.7 ly range. So yeah with calibration its pretty crazy but without it it's barely keeping up. With calibration a pack of Yacht's could maybe skip a cyno in the chain but that isn't a huge deal. Maybe the devs have a better way of balancing this than I can think of.
Cargo bay size, fuel bay size and fuel usage amount are all just suggestions. Use it to haul ammo with only 100-200 m3 of space seems a bit crazy. The one thing I see is if the fuel bay is to large then you could use it to move isotopes for a POS tower. Although seems to me you would waste more fuel and LO dropping cyno's than you would gain trying to move fuel that way. Far more likely in a disparate situation someone would just use a carrier with its 10k corp hangar. Five times the fuel cost(1000 v 200) but the result is 50 times the cargo(10k v 200). Obviously the JF trumps all as it should.
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ddred
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Posted - 2009.08.18 10:34:00 -
[23]
I think you were going somewhere with the liner idea that someone brought in. The yaught, cargo bay, immune to warp scram ect... just sounds like "I want a fancy ship I can fly anywhere in". Someone above even said the ability to jump to random locations through locking onto the star... I'm not impressed.
I like the liner Idea. Cruiser sized ship completely designed to fit a warp, jump drive and thrusters. Completely dedicated to travel with a fuel bay for two jumps at most WITH CYNO and the ability to carry passengers so 0.0 alliances can traffic new pilots in and recently podded corp mates in + 10m3 cargo bay like shuttles which some people use to run skill books to people. You now have a jump shuttle. Why cruiser sized? Because jump drives are big, bigger than some frigates actually. So the next step up is cruiser sized and as it's dedicated to jumping and needs to have enough fuel for two jumps. It's fuel bay would be large and thus by the time you have put together all this navigational equipment, you have a cruiser sized ship. You then give it no hard points, little shielding, little armor ect. Same structure as a normal cruiser and then you have a jump linershuttle.
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.19 00:14:00 -
[24]
I want to stress that everything I have ever read on these boards says that allowing multiple pilots to reside in the same ship is not technically possible. So having a Yacht/Liner that 6 people can dock there pods into an all jump together isn't going to work. If someone has new info that this isn't true plz do share but I seriously doubt that to be the case.
The entire point of this ship is to provide a simple substitute. The example I used above was a combat example of jumping in changing ships with carrier maintenance bays and attacking. The better use goes like this...
You are a 6 month old hard core PvP player. You can fly BC's and BS pretty well. You have your learning skills but you are 6-9 months away from serious capitals and 2-3 months away (in the other direction)from serious things like hacs etc. In most 0.0 alliances you are a liability. They have no way to get you from highsec to there home area accept JC's. Once you are there the only way to get you to a fight is ether use a Titan JB or you fly 15 hops the last 5 of which are hostile territory etc etc. Day to day is a huge hassle cause you are trapped in your sov 4 constellation unless you want to A- die making a run out or B- deal with the 24 JC timer etc.
I'm not a 0.0 expert obviously and different alliances have different setups with jump bridges at POS's etc. Over all though regardless of attitude or desire players like this are not allowed into big alliances cause they are more hassle than they are worth in a fight. Same thing applies to alts. So then we have this ship...
With maybe 16-20 days of total training 90% of which he would need to fly a capital ship anyway he can fly a Yacht. That means any time a group in the alliance stages a jump out for an Anshar or a jump in for a Moros someone just bought that newb can just jump right along with that ship to get in or out of 0.0 to highsec etc. This would allow him to get in to the 0.0 home area to install a JC or two or three without the need for a "liner", or hitching a ride or whatever.
Like any ship its a tool. Its cost money to use but in the long run it will probably save you money in fewer lost ships at gate camps etc. It opens up 0.0 to much newer characters and more importantly the higher lvl characters wont care. They aren't causing problems begging for someone to escort them out, they aren't absent from the biggest fight of the week because they have 12 hours left on a JC, etc etc etc. It gives then the same freedom that higher lvl characters have with HACs and the ability to use a carrier/dread.
Beyond any of this it just makes sense. Why would people that can make a big badass carrier like a Nyx not make a Luxury Yacht for rich people to tool around in sight seeing.
Prior to fuel bays I completely understood the problems the devs had. If you make the bay big enough for enough jumps to matter some dork would abuse it to move cargo etc etc. It is now possible for the devs to properly balance this type of ship and they should add it asap...
You want people in 0.0. This is a HUGE first step.
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.20 15:17:00 -
[25]
Anyone else?
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Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2009.08.20 16:45:00 -
[26]
I like the idea of a jump capable shuttle, 10m3 cargo jump range similar to carriers and jump freighters, no fitting slots. Probably a cruiser size hull with skill bonuses to agility and speed so you have a reasonable chance to avoid a gate camp.
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Garthran
Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders
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Posted - 2009.08.20 17:12:00 -
[27]
Eve is massive. Things that are far away from each other are, in fact, far away. You can't hop on the back of a magical bird and fly across Eve.
I like that. Yes, it would be convenient to get around quickly. But I honestly don't see large demand for something like this. If you wanna get through 0.0, use a shuttle. They're agile, they're fast, and they're hard to lock. Maybe at best make a t2 shuttle with bubble immunity. That ensures that only the griefers that fit sensor boosters on interceptors are going to actually get you.
Jump-shuttles would be neat to **** around with. But I'm not seeing a place for them in this game. |
Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.22 04:46:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Darkdood on 22/08/2009 04:45:51 bump
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.08.27 15:59:00 -
[29]
So anyone else like this idea?
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2009.08.27 16:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Garthran That ensures that only the griefers that fit sensor boosters on interceptors are going to actually get you.
It is a sad day when someone out in 0.0 looking for pvp is seen as a griefer... the carebears have won Eve
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As for this idea, it is self contradicting. Its a capital ship for the "non capital pilot or even an established pilot to move around like we use shuttles in highsec."
Check out the covert ops lineup, they do a lot of what you are talking about here and are sub capital.
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