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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1156
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Posted - 2012.05.29 22:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
The new war system eliminated the whole "voting" process to declare war, which was a good thing. It puts more power in the hands of corp leadership, and allows them to respond to situations better. However, the "voting" process allowed a time for discussion and for everyone to be aware of what is going on. When the war was finally declared, no character name was attached to it, as it was presumably a "whole corp" decision.
New to Inferno, with the elimination of the voting system, any director can anonymously force his corp into at least 7 days of war. When war is declared, there is no info published about who in leadership decided to initiate it.
This is a big upset in the balance of power in corps, and allows trigger happy directors to go over the heads of the entire corp and any other diplomacy. I know, "if you don't trust him, he shouldn't be a director" and all, and this is not a problem that my corp is having, but...
Is this an intended mechanic and feature, or is it an unintended side effect (and exploit) of the revamped war system? Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1326
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Posted - 2012.05.29 22:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
A job != a democracy
Boss > you
now corporations
...read that as... CORPORATIONS
work a little more as such
that said, executive board approval would make it much better (an executive roles only vote), but a dictatorship also works The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1157
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Posted - 2012.05.29 22:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Morganta wrote:A job != a democracy
Boss > you
now corporations
...read that as... CORPORATIONS
work a little more as such
that said, executive board approval would make it much better (an executive roles only vote), but a dictatorship also works since the CEO can always stack the deck anyhow Re-emphasizing: I am perfectly fine with the power to wardec lying in the hands of individuals.
The issue I am raising is the fact that when this particular power is exercised, the person who does so is not identified. For example, if I were to suddenly make Rifterlings wardec your alliance, my members would have no idea which director it was that did it. The problem grows in magnitude the more directors there are. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1326
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Posted - 2012.05.29 22:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Morganta wrote:A job != a democracy
Boss > you
now corporations
...read that as... CORPORATIONS
work a little more as such
that said, executive board approval would make it much better (an executive roles only vote), but a dictatorship also works since the CEO can always stack the deck anyhow Re-emphasizing: I am perfectly fine with the power to wardec lying in the hands of individuals. The issue I am raising is the fact that when this particular power is exercised, the person who does so is not identified. For example, if I were to suddenly make Rifterlings wardec your alliance, my members would have no idea which director it was that did it. The problem grows in magnitude the more directors there are.
could be a bug or oversight or it could be to help force leadership to communicate better with each other and the underlings
think of it as an extra mystery mini-game, it's content!
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1158
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 22:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Morganta wrote:think of it as an extra mystery mini-game, it's content! I'd say short-circuiting diplomacy involves ruining content, but whatever. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
115
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Posted - 2012.05.29 22:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Don't let people you don't trust into important positions? Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1158
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 23:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Don't let people you don't trust into important positions? Obviously, and with this mechanic this is more important than before, but the question was "should people know who activated the war, rather than have it be anonymous"? Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Garnoo
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
55
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Posted - 2012.05.29 23:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
mayby you should talk sometimes to your ceo? People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back - this is EvE |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1158
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Posted - 2012.05.29 23:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Garnoo wrote:mayby you should talk sometimes to your ceo? I am my corp's CEO, and my corp is not experiencing this problem. This is not a whine "I got screwed over due to trusting someone I shouldn't " thread. It is just a question about the new Inferno mechanics.
Did you even read the OP? Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
812
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Posted - 2012.05.30 00:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Morganta wrote:A job != a democracy
Boss > you
now corporations
...read that as... CORPORATIONS
work a little more as such
that said, executive board approval would make it much better (an executive roles only vote), but a dictatorship also works since the CEO can always stack the deck anyhow I love it when you pretend to understand real life. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2409
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Petrus brings up a really good point. We just went through this ourselves, with a war dec that flew faster than everyone could be consulted and it caused some diplomatic tangles.
I think it just makes sense that those initiating a war dec should be held responsible by being identified, I'll look into this and see if I can find you guys an answer on whether this is a bug or a "working as intended" type situation.
Thanks for the heads up to this thread! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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ErrorRon
The Drunken Empire Fatal Ascension
2
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Perhaps CEOs will choose their directors more wisely. I'd say its a good mechanic. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2409
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
ErrorRon wrote:Perhaps CEOs will choose their directors more wisely. I'd say its a good mechanic.
I don't think this is a completely fair way to approach the problem as even reliable, trustworthy directors can make errors in judgement, or act based on limited information but with best intentions.
Saying "get better directors" doesnt fix the problem of a CEO needing to be able to know why he's at war and who brought his corp to that point, for whatever reason. Holding everyone responsible for their actions isn't an unreasonable thing to ask for. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
517
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:any director can anonymously force his corp into at least 7 days of war. When war is declared, there is no info published about who in leadership decided to initiate it.
Easily fixed by leaving the corp if you don't like it.
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Juess
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.05.30 19:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:ErrorRon wrote:Perhaps CEOs will choose their directors more wisely. I'd say its a good mechanic. I don't think this is a completely fair way to approach the problem as even reliable, trustworthy directors can make errors in judgement, or act based on limited information but with best intentions. Saying "get better directors" doesnt fix the problem of a CEO needing to be able to know why he's at war and who brought his corp to that point, for whatever reason. Holding everyone responsible for their actions isn't an unreasonable thing to ask for. That may be true, Hans, but we never knew who "called for war" before, either. What I mean is that, under the system of voting, a CEO still had no idea who in his corp actually approved of the war.
I really don't see this as being a problem at all. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
555
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alliances always had the ability to declare war without the voting process. Why should corps be any different? eh |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
527
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
As a counterpoint, any director can clear out the corporation hangars *everywhere* *remotely* with no trace left behind.
Whether or not intended, I would chalk this one under "only give director to people you 100% trust". And that includes trusting them to speak up when you ask "alright which one of you noobs just wardecced Goonswarm?" |
Malice Redeemer
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Alliances always had the ability to declare war without the voting process. Why should corps be any different?
The forum communities ability to completely miss the point of the OP by trying to read to much in to it is astounding. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1168
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:As a counterpoint, any director can clear out the corporation hangars *everywhere* *remotely* with no trace left behind.
Whether or not intended, I would chalk this one under "only give director to people you 100% trust". And that includes trusting them to speak up when you ask "alright which one of you noobs just wardecced Goonswarm?" In a game that is supposedly all about having consequences for your choices, being able to do stuff anonymously with no consequences just seems against the spirit of the game. That includes offgrid boosting, neutral logi, swiping everything from corp, and now declaring war. I'm fine with these all existing, but they need to have real consequences and risks.
Malice Redeemer wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Alliances always had the ability to declare war without the voting process. Why should corps be any different? The forum communities ability to completely miss the point of the OP by trying to read to much in to it is astounding. It really is, isn't it? They're so used to the same ol' whine threads it's sad. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1336
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
so you cant chat with your execs and see who did it?
this is the issue, if you cant be arsed to talk to a couple of people who you trust to make decisions like that why should CCP do something about it? The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2412
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Posted - 2012.05.30 21:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:In a game that is supposedly all about having consequences for your choices, being able to do stuff anonymously with no consequences just seems against the spirit of the game. That includes offgrid boosting, neutral logi, swiping everything from corp, and now declaring war. I'm fine with these all existing, but they need to have real consequences and risks.
QFT and thanks for saving me a second post saying the same thing :)
I mean, with the new war reports and such, we're headed in the direction of MORE information available all around, not less. I think naming those that declare war is consistent with this.
I'm sure in most cases a CEO asking their directors who did it isn't really an issue, I think the greater consideration is that if a wardec is made in the absence of other directors or the CEO, at least the corp members themselves could get some instant notice so they know who to talk to about it.
To those that say this isn't a big deal, I agree it's not a "crisis" currently or anything we want to pull CCP away from something important to fix, but if its a quick coding tweak, than sure, why the hell not? Like I said, the least I can do is at least inquire as to whether this was intentional or not. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1170
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Posted - 2012.05.30 21:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Morganta wrote:so you cant chat with your execs and see who did it?
this is the issue, if you cant be arsed to talk to a couple of people who you trust to make decisions like that why should CCP do something about it? That is the simple solution if it was indeed just a spur of the moment thing where he simply decided to not consult anyone before doing it. As you are likely well aware, though, people in Eve do not always tell the truth. Out of embarassment (or even gasp malice) the guy who issued the wardec can simply say "I have no clue wtf happened! I want to find the **** who did this and **** his ******** all the way through his ******* and out his eye."
This applies to any leadership actions that can be taken anonymously. There is simply not enough record-keeping of leadership actions, and thus not enough accountability. For other things directors can do, there can be varying degrees of protection via the CEO's existence, alt holding corps/characters for valuable assets, etc. For this wardec thing, there is no protection.
I could rant all day, but it boils down to this: "are anonymous actions with zero consequences and accountability in the spirit of Eve, and was it intended behavior that one more thing was added to the list of such actions?" Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
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