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SPIONKOP
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Posted - 2004.10.11 12:20:00 -
[1]
I would like to gauge the opinion of players as to the future of small corps. CCP seem to be making it more difficult for the smaller corps to exist and to have a role in the game. I can only see problems for the game if small corps, freelancers and newbs are forced to join the mega corps. Whilst some will join, I fear that many will simply leave the game.
The next release of shiva seems to offer much more for the mega corps than it does the smaller corps. Whilst I agree with a lot of what Shiva will deliver I am not sure the balance is right. The following are just some of the issues that concern me.
A corp can not declare war on another corp in an alliance, they have to declare war on that alliance. This gives the alliance members way too much power over the smaller corps.
Costs of Labs/Office Space/Factories. Costs will be affordable for mega corps but small corps will struggle. Also players that want to specialise in building/research can't find lab slots and new corps can't find stations in the higher sec areas.
POS. Devs still don't seem to be sure if POS can be built in low sec empire space or not. Not sure I want to see POS in Jita, but surly they have to allow POS in 0.4 and below.
Trade. New skills will restrict the development of small corps who wish to buy/sell items on the market as well as the new cost being applied to buy orders. Large corps can afford to specialise and have the funds to operate the market.
Alliances. The cost of alliance wars will make it more cost effective to have a small number of large corps, rather than a large number of small corps. Small corps will not be able to join an alliance unless they merge.
Don't get me wrong I am looking forward to Shiva and all that it offers but I do worry about the future. For Eve to grow we need to increase the number of new players to replace those that leave. IF there are no roles for the small corp, solo players etc then we lose a lot of players and discourage others from joining the game or staying long enough to see how good eve is.
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SPIONKOP
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Posted - 2004.10.11 12:20:00 -
[2]
I would like to gauge the opinion of players as to the future of small corps. CCP seem to be making it more difficult for the smaller corps to exist and to have a role in the game. I can only see problems for the game if small corps, freelancers and newbs are forced to join the mega corps. Whilst some will join, I fear that many will simply leave the game.
The next release of shiva seems to offer much more for the mega corps than it does the smaller corps. Whilst I agree with a lot of what Shiva will deliver I am not sure the balance is right. The following are just some of the issues that concern me.
A corp can not declare war on another corp in an alliance, they have to declare war on that alliance. This gives the alliance members way too much power over the smaller corps.
Costs of Labs/Office Space/Factories. Costs will be affordable for mega corps but small corps will struggle. Also players that want to specialise in building/research can't find lab slots and new corps can't find stations in the higher sec areas.
POS. Devs still don't seem to be sure if POS can be built in low sec empire space or not. Not sure I want to see POS in Jita, but surly they have to allow POS in 0.4 and below.
Trade. New skills will restrict the development of small corps who wish to buy/sell items on the market as well as the new cost being applied to buy orders. Large corps can afford to specialise and have the funds to operate the market.
Alliances. The cost of alliance wars will make it more cost effective to have a small number of large corps, rather than a large number of small corps. Small corps will not be able to join an alliance unless they merge.
Don't get me wrong I am looking forward to Shiva and all that it offers but I do worry about the future. For Eve to grow we need to increase the number of new players to replace those that leave. IF there are no roles for the small corp, solo players etc then we lose a lot of players and discourage others from joining the game or staying long enough to see how good eve is.
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Drefsab
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Posted - 2004.10.11 12:27:00 -
[3]
hey spi, I know exactly what you are saying, I once was a director of a small (but at the time still powerful) corp. But we ended up merging with rona as the larger groups will always get the biggest toys first. OTE is a good corp and you and its members deserve to be able to get in on the main action, sadly it looks like your only real options are joining an allience or merging. If you send me an eve mail later I will have a chat and put in some good words for you if you like.
Respect to the OTE crew :D "Death Before Dishonor" |
Drefsab
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Posted - 2004.10.11 12:27:00 -
[4]
hey spi, I know exactly what you are saying, I once was a director of a small (but at the time still powerful) corp. But we ended up merging with rona as the larger groups will always get the biggest toys first. OTE is a good corp and you and its members deserve to be able to get in on the main action, sadly it looks like your only real options are joining an allience or merging. If you send me an eve mail later I will have a chat and put in some good words for you if you like.
Respect to the OTE crew :D "Death Before Dishonor" |
Wren
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Posted - 2004.10.11 12:35:00 -
[5]
go try to be a freelance merc IRL.
be a small soda company IRL.
be a small corp anywhere IRL.
You will find it much much easier in EVE. --------------------------------------------------
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Wren
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Posted - 2004.10.11 12:35:00 -
[6]
go try to be a freelance merc IRL.
be a small soda company IRL.
be a small corp anywhere IRL.
You will find it much much easier in EVE. --------------------------------------------------
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Decilius
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Posted - 2004.10.11 13:29:00 -
[7]
I am the CEO of a small corp (>10 members) and I like it that way, dont get me wrong I want the corp to grow but slowly and controllably merging with a big corp is simply not an option for us.
On the other hand I think CCP would be happy if nought but 2 absolute megacorps existed in their universe and fought each other tooth and nail for everything.
You are right of course about the lack of offices and factories in high sec space and the shortage of labs is just laughable. There seems like there is no room for the little guy in Eve (and I do go through some dreadfully depressing times when I just think that its not worth it anymore but sometimes as is at this moment in time, I'm glad we are small as it does give us some freedoms not enjoyed by bigger corps and alliances and we do tend not to get noticed except when we want to be.
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Decilius
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Posted - 2004.10.11 13:29:00 -
[8]
I am the CEO of a small corp (>10 members) and I like it that way, dont get me wrong I want the corp to grow but slowly and controllably merging with a big corp is simply not an option for us.
On the other hand I think CCP would be happy if nought but 2 absolute megacorps existed in their universe and fought each other tooth and nail for everything.
You are right of course about the lack of offices and factories in high sec space and the shortage of labs is just laughable. There seems like there is no room for the little guy in Eve (and I do go through some dreadfully depressing times when I just think that its not worth it anymore but sometimes as is at this moment in time, I'm glad we are small as it does give us some freedoms not enjoyed by bigger corps and alliances and we do tend not to get noticed except when we want to be.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.10.11 13:43:00 -
[9]
Activity and dedication gets you where you are, not numbers alone. Big numbers alone doesnt make anyone effective or good. If people put just as much effort into get anywhere as they do moaning, they would do so much better.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.10.11 13:43:00 -
[10]
Activity and dedication gets you where you are, not numbers alone. Big numbers alone doesnt make anyone effective or good. If people put just as much effort into get anywhere as they do moaning, they would do so much better.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Decilius
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Posted - 2004.10.11 13:47:00 -
[11]
What Ruffio said
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Decilius
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Posted - 2004.10.11 13:47:00 -
[12]
What Ruffio said
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Barth3zzzNL
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Posted - 2004.10.11 14:37:00 -
[13]
Originally by: SPIONKOP A corp can not declare war on another corp in an alliance, they have to declare war on that alliance. This gives the alliance members way too much power over the smaller corps.
I actually do disagree on this part, its really going to decrease the overall amount of PVP in eve. Which is bad
Originally by: SPIONKOP Costs of Labs/Office Space/Factories. Costs will be affordable for mega corps but small corps will struggle. Also players that want to specialise in building/research can't find lab slots and new corps can't find stations in the higher sec areas.
This isnt really corp related, its related to CCP's unwillingness to implement a decend solution. Several of those have already been posted by players.
Originally by: SPIONKOP POS. Devs still don't seem to be sure if POS can be built in low sec empire space or not. Not sure I want to see POS in Jita, but surly they have to allow POS in 0.4 and below.
Just because POS have to be in 0.0 doesnt mean small corps cant own one. Join an alliance or move into neutral 0.0. Im a member of a 6 man corp and were already planning on building an outpost.
Sure, it might be harder to defend then a large corp but you are also a less obvious target.
Originally by: SPIONKOP Alliances. The cost of alliance wars will make it more cost effective to have a small number of large corps, rather than a large number of small corps. Small corps will not be able to join an alliance unless they merge.
Alliances have to pay 1 mill per corp per month or so. An alliance could simply set a 1 mill isk membership fee for all corps no matter their size. I doubt anyone has problems getting 1 mill isk. ---------------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Barth3zzzNL
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Posted - 2004.10.11 14:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: SPIONKOP A corp can not declare war on another corp in an alliance, they have to declare war on that alliance. This gives the alliance members way too much power over the smaller corps.
I actually do disagree on this part, its really going to decrease the overall amount of PVP in eve. Which is bad
Originally by: SPIONKOP Costs of Labs/Office Space/Factories. Costs will be affordable for mega corps but small corps will struggle. Also players that want to specialise in building/research can't find lab slots and new corps can't find stations in the higher sec areas.
This isnt really corp related, its related to CCP's unwillingness to implement a decend solution. Several of those have already been posted by players.
Originally by: SPIONKOP POS. Devs still don't seem to be sure if POS can be built in low sec empire space or not. Not sure I want to see POS in Jita, but surly they have to allow POS in 0.4 and below.
Just because POS have to be in 0.0 doesnt mean small corps cant own one. Join an alliance or move into neutral 0.0. Im a member of a 6 man corp and were already planning on building an outpost.
Sure, it might be harder to defend then a large corp but you are also a less obvious target.
Originally by: SPIONKOP Alliances. The cost of alliance wars will make it more cost effective to have a small number of large corps, rather than a large number of small corps. Small corps will not be able to join an alliance unless they merge.
Alliances have to pay 1 mill per corp per month or so. An alliance could simply set a 1 mill isk membership fee for all corps no matter their size. I doubt anyone has problems getting 1 mill isk. ---------------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
SPIONKOP
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Posted - 2004.10.11 16:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Wren go try to be a freelance merc IRL.
be a small soda company IRL.
be a small corp anywhere IRL.
You will find it much much easier in EVE.
I think your missing the point Wren. Eve is not real life, it fun time.
To me joining a mega corp and taking "orders" and doing what I am told without much of say over who we are at war/peace with resembles real life too much. I like to enjoy myself and help the corp and its members.
I just feel sad that many players will miss out on playing such a great game because they will be forced to join a mega corp or be unable to partake in certain elements of the game.
Whilst it may be unlealistic for small corps to own/defend a POS surly they should be able to research a BPO or declare war on a small corp causing them grief but instead they can't get find a lab and have to declare war on an alliance.
Eve is fun and that should be the most important reason we play the game. No matter if you a pirate, a merc, a miner, carebear what ever.
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SPIONKOP
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Posted - 2004.10.11 16:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Wren go try to be a freelance merc IRL.
be a small soda company IRL.
be a small corp anywhere IRL.
You will find it much much easier in EVE.
I think your missing the point Wren. Eve is not real life, it fun time.
To me joining a mega corp and taking "orders" and doing what I am told without much of say over who we are at war/peace with resembles real life too much. I like to enjoy myself and help the corp and its members.
I just feel sad that many players will miss out on playing such a great game because they will be forced to join a mega corp or be unable to partake in certain elements of the game.
Whilst it may be unlealistic for small corps to own/defend a POS surly they should be able to research a BPO or declare war on a small corp causing them grief but instead they can't get find a lab and have to declare war on an alliance.
Eve is fun and that should be the most important reason we play the game. No matter if you a pirate, a merc, a miner, carebear what ever.
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Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2004.10.11 16:47:00 -
[17]
I think the real problem is the fact that most small corps are trying to operate like the biggies, and worse, trying to compete with them. Your 10-man corp isn't likely to be able to undercut the regional alliances on battleship prices. Not for long, at least.
Your ten members aren't going to be able to fully compete with dozens of people. It's about specialization and playing on strengths, and I feel alot of people are doing neither. The alliances, however, have found their strengths in wealth and numbers, and act upon those strengths.
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Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2004.10.11 16:47:00 -
[18]
I think the real problem is the fact that most small corps are trying to operate like the biggies, and worse, trying to compete with them. Your 10-man corp isn't likely to be able to undercut the regional alliances on battleship prices. Not for long, at least.
Your ten members aren't going to be able to fully compete with dozens of people. It's about specialization and playing on strengths, and I feel alot of people are doing neither. The alliances, however, have found their strengths in wealth and numbers, and act upon those strengths.
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DarkMatter
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Posted - 2004.10.11 16:48:00 -
[19]
CCP is doing it's best to stomp out small corps...
We are the black sheep of the EVE universe...
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DarkMatter
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Posted - 2004.10.11 16:48:00 -
[20]
CCP is doing it's best to stomp out small corps...
We are the black sheep of the EVE universe...
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pardux
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Posted - 2004.10.11 17:14:00 -
[21]
darkmatter is right Fluffy carebear (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
pardux
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Posted - 2004.10.11 17:14:00 -
[22]
darkmatter is right Fluffy carebear (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Decilius
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Posted - 2004.10.11 17:19:00 -
[23]
Darkmatter no you are not right, someone said earlier in this thread that it is about specialisation and finding your niche in this Universe. I have found one for my corp and as far as I know we are doing alright for ourselves. As for the small corps cant compete with big corps I have one word.... phooey there is a member of our corp who produces loads of stuff makes himself 15- 20 mil at a time and still finds time to run 3 factories for corp. You just have to LOOK for a way to make your corp work
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Decilius
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Posted - 2004.10.11 17:19:00 -
[24]
Darkmatter no you are not right, someone said earlier in this thread that it is about specialisation and finding your niche in this Universe. I have found one for my corp and as far as I know we are doing alright for ourselves. As for the small corps cant compete with big corps I have one word.... phooey there is a member of our corp who produces loads of stuff makes himself 15- 20 mil at a time and still finds time to run 3 factories for corp. You just have to LOOK for a way to make your corp work
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Kattrina
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Posted - 2004.10.11 17:24:00 -
[25]
Dec is right.
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Kattrina
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Posted - 2004.10.11 17:24:00 -
[26]
Dec is right.
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CmdoColin
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Posted - 2004.10.11 18:38:00 -
[27]
I personally think the only thing small corps miss out on in the starbases from shiva. My reasons for this are:
Doesn't specialisation become the key here? One uber refiner is all thats needed in a mega corp, its all thats needed in a smaller corp too. He takes the missions, but gets your one of the combat specialised guys to actually do the kill missions to get standing. The guy specialised as a hauler does the courior. Same for the new selling thingie. One guys skilled up something silly - eveything is sold through him. Doesn't this actually work better in a smaller corp? A small corp where everyone knows and trusts each other - rather than a mega corp where you know even if refiner Y nicks everything, refiner Z, and the corp mining drones can replace it in a few minutes.
As for the war decleration - why would a 10 member or less corp want to declare war on an alliance with 800+ memebers. If a corp pays 1million to be in an alliance - surely they are entitled to the protection it affords, or we all just use our combat alts to get around the war restrictions on corps in allainces.
Put together your own alliance... If all the small corps untied - like small shops trader groups irl - gives you aliitle more clout.
As for costs - I think your'll see a drop IF starbases are restricted to where they can be placed. Building and lab research can occur in both - so why would a 0.0 alliance have them in up in high sec space. I personally think your'll see them drop in usuage and price.
High sec space does become dangerous for all 0.0 alliances. Out of the big 0.0 alliances - who isn't CA going to declare war on, and who isn't going to declare war on the nasty bad ebil CA? (of which I'm a member ) That allows all those alliances to go on a gank fest on each other without sentry guns or concord getting involved. Empire is going to start empting out very slowly of 0.0 allaince members (and I see alot of various 0.0 allaince members in empire in indies )...
Fianlly - Starbases... hmmm... aren't they about moon mining? I can't personally see how a small corp of less than 10 people could support a substantial mining effort with labslots, refining, defence, t2 component production and docking facilities 23/7. If you keep it in 0.4 and below - anyone can blow it away when every they like - and you can't protect it 23/7 with a sizeable force. I'm sure someone can find a way for blaming the CA for that as well...
In that sense I do think you are right - I think starbases are going to be mega corp factilites - and as such will have to be able to get around the propblems in a mega corp that the guys in a small corp don't have. Otherwise why would we have small corps? Managing all the members of a large corp is a serious pain.
PS - I call them starbases as we already have POS (player owned stations) - which had to be taken over not built, and cannot destroyed, but taken over by the new attacking group once they do enough damage.
Audita et altera pars |
CmdoColin
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Posted - 2004.10.11 18:38:00 -
[28]
I personally think the only thing small corps miss out on in the starbases from shiva. My reasons for this are:
Doesn't specialisation become the key here? One uber refiner is all thats needed in a mega corp, its all thats needed in a smaller corp too. He takes the missions, but gets your one of the combat specialised guys to actually do the kill missions to get standing. The guy specialised as a hauler does the courior. Same for the new selling thingie. One guys skilled up something silly - eveything is sold through him. Doesn't this actually work better in a smaller corp? A small corp where everyone knows and trusts each other - rather than a mega corp where you know even if refiner Y nicks everything, refiner Z, and the corp mining drones can replace it in a few minutes.
As for the war decleration - why would a 10 member or less corp want to declare war on an alliance with 800+ memebers. If a corp pays 1million to be in an alliance - surely they are entitled to the protection it affords, or we all just use our combat alts to get around the war restrictions on corps in allainces.
Put together your own alliance... If all the small corps untied - like small shops trader groups irl - gives you aliitle more clout.
As for costs - I think your'll see a drop IF starbases are restricted to where they can be placed. Building and lab research can occur in both - so why would a 0.0 alliance have them in up in high sec space. I personally think your'll see them drop in usuage and price.
High sec space does become dangerous for all 0.0 alliances. Out of the big 0.0 alliances - who isn't CA going to declare war on, and who isn't going to declare war on the nasty bad ebil CA? (of which I'm a member ) That allows all those alliances to go on a gank fest on each other without sentry guns or concord getting involved. Empire is going to start empting out very slowly of 0.0 allaince members (and I see alot of various 0.0 allaince members in empire in indies )...
Fianlly - Starbases... hmmm... aren't they about moon mining? I can't personally see how a small corp of less than 10 people could support a substantial mining effort with labslots, refining, defence, t2 component production and docking facilities 23/7. If you keep it in 0.4 and below - anyone can blow it away when every they like - and you can't protect it 23/7 with a sizeable force. I'm sure someone can find a way for blaming the CA for that as well...
In that sense I do think you are right - I think starbases are going to be mega corp factilites - and as such will have to be able to get around the propblems in a mega corp that the guys in a small corp don't have. Otherwise why would we have small corps? Managing all the members of a large corp is a serious pain.
PS - I call them starbases as we already have POS (player owned stations) - which had to be taken over not built, and cannot destroyed, but taken over by the new attacking group once they do enough damage.
Audita et altera pars |
Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.10.11 19:49:00 -
[29]
Originally by: SPIONKOP I think your missing the point Wren. Eve is not real life, it fun time.
To me joining a mega corp and taking "orders" and doing what I am told without much of say over who we are at war/peace with resembles real life too much. I like to enjoy myself and help the corp and its members.
I just feel sad that many players will miss out on playing such a great game because they will be forced to join a mega corp or be unable to partake in certain elements of the game.
Whilst it may be unlealistic for small corps to own/defend a POS surly they should be able to research a BPO or declare war on a small corp causing them grief but instead they can't get find a lab and have to declare war on an alliance.
Eve is fun and that should be the most important reason we play the game. No matter if you a pirate, a merc, a miner, carebear what ever.
There is several kinds of players. Ranging from the casual lax ones to the more powerplaying types. Guess which progress fastest and see best results?
It doesnt matter if your Corp got 10 members or 100 members, if its not organized, structured and active. Sure with a smaller corp you got less options available for you but that doesnt or shouldn't keep you from explore the options you actually can look into, and then do the best out of.
No one forces you to do anything in EVE, you chose your own path to go. Don't expect people to entertain you, you need to entertain yourself. So what you can't do things that bigger Corps's can becasue you lack isk and manpower. If you want to compete at that level, get the manpower and get the isk, and work towards that goal.
I'm so sick of people paint everything black and not realize what actually is avaiable for them. But sure its more comfort on sit on your *** moan, whining about what you can't do than actually work for something, and to become something.
You are your own limitation.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.10.11 19:49:00 -
[30]
Originally by: SPIONKOP I think your missing the point Wren. Eve is not real life, it fun time.
To me joining a mega corp and taking "orders" and doing what I am told without much of say over who we are at war/peace with resembles real life too much. I like to enjoy myself and help the corp and its members.
I just feel sad that many players will miss out on playing such a great game because they will be forced to join a mega corp or be unable to partake in certain elements of the game.
Whilst it may be unlealistic for small corps to own/defend a POS surly they should be able to research a BPO or declare war on a small corp causing them grief but instead they can't get find a lab and have to declare war on an alliance.
Eve is fun and that should be the most important reason we play the game. No matter if you a pirate, a merc, a miner, carebear what ever.
There is several kinds of players. Ranging from the casual lax ones to the more powerplaying types. Guess which progress fastest and see best results?
It doesnt matter if your Corp got 10 members or 100 members, if its not organized, structured and active. Sure with a smaller corp you got less options available for you but that doesnt or shouldn't keep you from explore the options you actually can look into, and then do the best out of.
No one forces you to do anything in EVE, you chose your own path to go. Don't expect people to entertain you, you need to entertain yourself. So what you can't do things that bigger Corps's can becasue you lack isk and manpower. If you want to compete at that level, get the manpower and get the isk, and work towards that goal.
I'm so sick of people paint everything black and not realize what actually is avaiable for them. But sure its more comfort on sit on your *** moan, whining about what you can't do than actually work for something, and to become something.
You are your own limitation.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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