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Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
500
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 03:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
In his latest Ten Ton Hammer article, The Mittani writes about many players' entitlement to "opt out" of PvP. Some even believe that this game does allow you to "opt out" by living in hisec, where the game's tutorial taught them how to shoot an NPC and mine an asteroid. Many believe that suicide ganking is an exploit, that CONCORD exists to protect them from all harm, and that nonconsensual PvP does not have a place in hisec. Many seem to agree with this notion - "suicide ganks drive away new players," they say. Or "it's bad for subscriptions." Whatever the reason, one thing is clear - they wish to destroy the philosophy behind the design of EVE, that competition is not optional, and the niche of the MMO world where it reigns - the PvP-centric MMO.
The Mittani writes:
Quote:It is undeniable: games as a whole are getting easier each year, with more handholding, simpler control schemes, extended tutorials, and a relentless drive to seize the money of even the most drooling incompetent. Simultaneously, games are getting more immersive and addictive, with the psychological feedback loops first seen in MUDs exploding into the MMO industry with Everquest and then being refined into their most destructive forms by both Blizzard and Zynga. What does a hobby with ever-increasing levels of addiction, ease, and immersion for its users create? A sense of entitlement - an entitlement that is a threat to every GÇÿhardGÇÖ game out there, but especially to EVE Online.
Despite CCPGÇÖs explicit marketing of EVE as a harsh universe full of mayhem and murder, despite Hulkageddons, despite the Great War, and despite the Burning of Jita, there is a silent, ignorant herd of players who genuinely believe that EVE is just like the other MMOs on the market - the PvP-optional, hand-holding MMOs who will pat you on the back, wipe away your tears, and give you a 30-second respawn with no consequences. When these people discover that EVE is not World of Warcraft (WoW), they rush to the forums and loudly bleat out their indignation and horror at encountering loss or danger.
Read on: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/231736/ eh |
Kimmi Chan
Black Rebel Rifter Club
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 03:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
IBTMass (lol) Unsubscribe Intelligence shouldn't be free. by Mors Sanctitatis |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
107
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 03:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
I always enjoy a good read, thanks for the link. Beats the 'I demand a pvp opt-out because highsec is a safe haven & ganking is an exploit' stuff that seems to be appearing everywhere on the internet. |
leviticus ander
CATO.nss
162
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 03:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
a little unrelated, did he end up getting permabanned and that's why he's doing all his whining on things like ten ton hammer and his moral speeches? or is he just staying away from the forums, or what? EDIT: in response to his post. I should actually redact my comment on whining there, but this still is a little. anyways, I learned about the permanent loss thing with my rookie ship when I accidentally APed through a section of lowsec. when I showed up in station in my pod, I looked around for a bit for the rookie ship but just saw the navatas I had been given as a mission reward. realized it as gone, went "oh, well that sucks. oh well" hopped into the navatas, fit some guns, went to shoot some rats and was wondering why my guns weren't firing. turns out you need to put ammo into them. |
Maya Shouna
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 03:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
IBFT whining
Edit: Bugger I wasn't |
Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 03:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
TL/DR |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
500
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 03:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
leviticus ander wrote:a little unrelated, did he end up getting permabanned and that's why he's doing all his whining on things like ten ton hammer and his moral speeches? or is he just staying away from the forums, or what?
He totally didn't post a thread earlier today that has stayed on top of the General Discussion subforum and will stay on the first page for weeks to come. He's obviously permabanned. eh |
Oddball Six
Oddball Corp
49
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 03:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Where the premise of this writer sees "growing and dangerous" from the perspective of someone in "goonswarm", there are several debatable premises here.
- If "they" (whoever that is) wish to destroy the philosophy behind eve... what is that exactly? Doesnt the strictest interpretation of the sandbox so acclaimed in these threads imply that there should be a place int he sandbox for people who want to play in that other corner of the sandbox this writer is not interested in?
- So often these writers tend to skip over the marketing of EVE as a place where professions predicated on peace are being advertised in campaigns running along side the PvP focused items.
- The article appears to completely skip over the fact that not every player is a super fan. Sorry bubba, welcome to the world where people have more to do than read all of the wonderful text and podcasts, and places like this. For every superfan going to all of these outlets, I would bet there is another player who picked the game up on steam or even directly through the website and just as regularly ignores all of these outlets. That you find this alarming in a game which has advertised in mainstream channels in recent years simply exposes your inexperience with the demographics involved in the game development industry. (And before someone challenges me on same, yes, I have worked in the industry, gave a presentation at E3, have been interviewed by Gamespy, have a developer account with GameSpot, etc. The hours are long. The pay is comparatively crappy outside of the executive ranks, and while I value the experience, I have no interest in going back.)
- This article like many others seems predicated on the idea that people are asking for change in the game to make it easier for people to be safe. Rather, I think the problem is that people are pointing to controls that are already there, being violated in new ways and manipulated by larger scale metagaming and saying "whats the deal CCP, is this a game design element or not? Do you have a policy on this or not?" If CCP wants to allow the behavior, then there need to be the discussion about balance and intent.
|
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
815
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
No one has ever said they should be protected from ganking. They have said the consequences are not balanced. And, this argument has been very eloquently stated from several corners. It's also true Mitt and his minions haven't bothered to try to respond to that argument. Rather, they try to characterize the dispute as he does in this article - claiming the "others" want no consequences, when it is them all along. If they are summarily made to pay a real price for their activity, they cry like carebears. Such disingenuousness is not unknown for Mitt. It's his hallmark, along with obfuscation and distortion. That he can get a bevy of people to follow him while offering no more than that speaks more of them than it does of him.
How long will he be able to mischaracterize in order to cultivate his imagined position as an MMO rock star, who knows, and really, who cares? Being a big fish in a small pond may have its perks. That's something I'll never bother to discover. However, the entire thrust of what he said in this "article" in this "publication" of some imagined importance is as significant as is the speaker. Broadbrushed histories replete with histrionics on the history of gaming is nothing new. He seems to have repeated the litany well enough. Though, it's said in ever general chat function in every game online today; not too original.
That this publication would bother to print what he said speaks more to their lack of potential content than the veracity or stature of the one interviewed. Games always, and will always, rely upon their quality as such from the inventors and developers of the games. Players like to present themselves as more than just players. Wannabees abound. If a game rises and falls, it will always be the responsibility and doing of the management. As for EVE, it may be listening to the players...or player...may be the biggest mistake they'll ever make. Time will tell.
Mitts come and go. There's nothing new to that. Good games? Good luck. Egos aren't gifted with the intelligence required to design a good one. At this point, egos rule EVE, but the corporate mentality will be making the decisions. The first goal of a corporation is to make money, not create a good game. They are mutually exclusive.
Nice try, Mitt. No cigar. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1540
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
I don't' recall any movements towards making the game safe, especially to such level that goons must somehow fight back against it to save the game.
There are always suggestions in the forums about it, for an against, but this is business as usual. What specifically happened that such action is needed to save the game from a kind of "Carebearism"?
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leviticus ander
CATO.nss
162
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:leviticus ander wrote:a little unrelated, did he end up getting permabanned and that's why he's doing all his whining on things like ten ton hammer and his moral speeches? or is he just staying away from the forums, or what? He totally didn't post a thread earlier today that has stayed on top of the General Discussion subforum and will stay on the first page for weeks to come. He's obviously permabanned. sorry, I hadn't seen that, I just poke GD every once in a while. I normally stick to F&I and OOPD. the reason I asked about him being permabanned is that there was someone posting on the forums shortly after he was banned, and there were people saying that it was him, and I think there was some affirmative comment about this by a CCP member. mind you I could be completely wrong, and have just taken a few too many blows to the head. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
164
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:leviticus ander wrote:a little unrelated, did he end up getting permabanned and that's why he's doing all his whining on things like ten ton hammer and his moral speeches? or is he just staying away from the forums, or what? He totally didn't post a thread earlier today that has stayed on top of the General Discussion subforum and will stay on the first page for weeks to come. He's obviously permabanned.
He won't be banned, not for a while yet. But it may be coming.
Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
But you keep going with the propaganda, about how how cfc and the null sec elements within CCP (soundwave et al) are striving to make Eve a better place for all.
See, accountants are a funny lot. They believe in these things called numbers on spreadsheets, that represent profits or losses. They don't read web forums like this.
My 2nd last account lapses in 9 days. I am keeping this one up to fight the good fight against the evil that you represent. But I am sure I in that oh so tiny, whiney minority that the game is better off not having in it, and that my accounts will be replaced so many times over by the new wave of players hungry for the null sec lifestyle, and Eve will enter a Golden Era.
Yes, I am sure that is what is happening, given I read it every day from so many goons and their acolytes. |
Mina Hiragi
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Oddball Six wrote: If "they" (whoever that is) wish to destroy the philosophy behind eve... what is that exactly? Doesnt the strictest interpretation of the sandbox so acclaimed in these threads imply that there should be a place int he sandbox for people who want to play in that other corner of the sandbox this writer is not interested in?
You ignore the fact that we are in a sandbox. Of course there's a place for people in the other corner. But the very nature of the sandbox means that The Mittani and friends can come over to that corner, punch you in the Internet face, and steal your Spacesandpail.
Sandbox does not mean safe room.
Oddball Six wrote:So often these writers tend to skip over the marketing of EVE as a place where professions predicated on peace are being advertised in campaigns running along side the PvP focused items.
Do go on. I'm curious as to how beating people out in finding exploration sites, how popping the mothership in an Incursion, how undercutting your opposition on the market, how mining all the good 'roids out of a belt - isn't the exact same thing as blowing up an opponent's Internet Spaceship.
All of these things - all of these things - result in loss to other players. Is it the explosions? Is that the real problem here? People are butthurt over violent flaming non-death?
Oddball Six wrote:The article appears to completely skip over the fact that not every player is a super fan.
There is a world of difference between being a 'super fan' and having a clue about a game you've paid money for.
Oddball Six wrote:This article like many others seems predicated on the idea that people are asking for change in the game to make it easier for people to be safe. Rather, I think the problem is that people are pointing to controls that are already there, being violated in new ways and manipulated by larger scale metagaming and saying "whats the deal CCP, is this a game design element or not? Do you have a policy on this or not?" If CCP wants to allow the behavior, then there need to be the discussion about balance and intent.
Violated? Suicide ganking has never been a violation of anything. The purported scale does not matter. It is a legitimate tactic, period, end of story.
To ignore this is to ignore everything CCP has ever said on the subject. And you want to "have a discussion" about it?
They're already being ignored, FFS. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
284
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
If there is one thing that CCP has made abundantly clear, it's that they support the idea of nobody being 100% safe. Both their actions (playing with CONCORD response times, removing insurance on gank ships but stopping well short of prohibiting it) and their words (Jon Lander describing the Burn Jita event as "******* brilliant"). Keeping this front row and center is of paramount importance. Never let some ablooblooing just-lost-*MY HULK* baby say otherwise without throwing that right back into their deceitful, pathetic faces. |
Aeryn Banks
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
IMHO referring to Eve these days as a "sandbox" is not entirely appropriate, given what has happened in the past couple of months.
I think Eve is more like a petri dish, waiting for a catalyst to be dropped into it to spark some change (or blow it clear out of the lab). Therefore, in the petri dish concepts such as "griefing", "ganking", "safety" and "risk" have no relevance other than being the catalysts for the change.
If the change involves the exodus of players who have been "mislead" into believing that Eve is a game for them, then so be it. We shall see where that road takes us in the future. And if it doesn't do anything to impact the Eve universe itself, well, nothing will have changed and we will all be waiting to see what new catalyst will be added to the petri dish that is Eve. |
Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
184
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
At least clicking the link to open the post wasn't too much for you. Good luck with your button pushing. Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
501
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Why, pray tell, would Sony be concerned at all about a game which they do not own?
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:See, accountants are a funny lot. They believe in these things called numbers on spreadsheets, that represent profits or losses. They don't read web forums like this.
CCP has allowed this gameplay for the entirety of EVE's existence - why would it suddenly become a problem now?
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:My 2nd last account lapses in 9 days. I am keeping this one up to fight the good fight against the evil that you represent.
Good to know that you're "unsubbing" but continuing to give CCP your $15/month just to post on their forums. eh |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
350
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:I always enjoy a good read, thanks for the link. Beats the 'I demand a pvp opt-out because highsec is a safe haven & ganking is an exploit' stuff that seems to be appearing everywhere on the internet.
for real . |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
501
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:The first goal of a corporation is to make money, not create a good game. They are mutually exclusive.
Presumably, a "good game" is what is needed to "make money" in the video game industry. So much for your argument! eh |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
616
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I don't' recall any movements towards making the game safe, especially to such level that goons must somehow fight back against it to save the game.
There are always suggestions in the forums about it, for an against, but this is business as usual. What specifically happened that such action is needed to save the game from a kind of "Carebearism"? You're kidding, right? Or were you simply not around long enough? Mind you, I don't judge people through player age; we all have to be new at some point, so don't take that as an insult, whether or not you're new.
But seriously, the amount of changes made to soften the game is staggering.
And to me, it reads like a bucket list. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
945
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:leviticus ander wrote:a little unrelated, did he end up getting permabanned and that's why he's doing all his whining on things like ten ton hammer and his moral speeches? or is he just staying away from the forums, or what? He totally didn't post a thread earlier today that has stayed on top of the General Discussion subforum and will stay on the first page for weeks to come. He's obviously permabanned. It happens, sometimes people don't read the forums, they just post. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
184
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Serene Repose wrote:The first goal of a corporation is to make money, not create a good game. They are mutually exclusive. Presumably, a "good game" is what is needed to "make money" in the video game industry. So much for your argument! Actually, ("so much for your argument", hilarious) good games are too difficult for the general public and never make the kind of money corporations like to see. They want something for the teeming, mindless masses...you know, like Mitt said in the "article."
"So much for your argument..." Whatta hoot! Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
945
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I don't' recall any movements towards making the game safe, especially to such level that goons must somehow fight back against it to save the game.
There are always suggestions in the forums about it, for an against, but this is business as usual. What specifically happened that such action is needed to save the game from a kind of "Carebearism"? You're kidding, right? Or were you simply not around long enough? Mind you, I don't judge people through player age; we all have to be new at some point, so don't take that as an insult, whether or not you're new. But seriously, the amount of changes made to soften the game is staggering. And to me, it reads like a bucket list. Tha's because it is one.
And the bucket is overflowing by now. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Evelyn Meiyi
Meiyi Family Holdings
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Whatever the reason, one thing is clear - they wish to destroy the philosophy behind the design of EVE, that competition is not optional, and the niche of the MMO world where it reigns - the PvP-centric MMO.
I think you're being overly dramatic. There's no 'concentrated effort' to wipe out non-consensual PvP. and nobody that I've spoken to has felt that highsec should be entirely PvP free.
Highsec, to most of them is like driving on a country road as opposed to a freeway -- you're not entirely safe on that country road, but you can afford to let your guard down a bit more.
The idea of 'non-consentual PvP' isn't about 'competition that is not optional'; It's about combat that isn't restricted to juust a button push that pops up a window saying 'John Doe wants to shoot you. Do you accept?'. Pirates, for example, don't usually send out a preemptive message asking 'Do you mind if we shoot you and steal your cargo, Mr. Transport Guy, sir?' *
Competition in EvE, is optional. I'm not forced by the game to go sign up for factional warfare, or try and outbid someone on the market; I'm allowed, should I wish, to ignore those aspects of the game entirely and do my own thing.
My question is, why do you and your fellow Goons try so hard to convince people that this 'harsh universe' is only supposed to be a gunslinger's private theme-park?
*('Tonight, we salute YOU, Mr. Transporting Ore All Over the Universe Man!') |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
108
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:No one has ever said they should be protected from ganking.
You don't visit the forums much do you?
Remove PvP from highsec
You can find plenty more threads just like this one in GD & AH. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
502
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Competition in EvE, is optional. I'm not forced by the game to go sign up for factional warfare, or try and outbid someone on the market; I'm allowed, should I wish, to ignore those aspects of the game entirely and do my own thing.
So what do you do in this game that is completely non-competitive? eh |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
945
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Competition in EvE, is optional. I'm not forced by the game to go sign up for factional warfare, or try and outbid someone on the market; I'm allowed, should I wish, to ignore those aspects of the game entirely and do my own thing. So what do you do in this game that is completely non-competitive? I donno, do L4s count? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Evelyn Meiyi
Meiyi Family Holdings
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Competition in EvE, is optional. I'm not forced by the game to go sign up for factional warfare, or try and outbid someone on the market; I'm allowed, should I wish, to ignore those aspects of the game entirely and do my own thing. So what do you do in this game that is completely non-competitive?
I mine. |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
108
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Competition in EvE, is optional. I'm not forced by the game to go sign up for factional warfare, or try and outbid someone on the market; I'm allowed, should I wish, to ignore those aspects of the game entirely and do my own thing. So what do you do in this game that is completely non-competitive?
Even ship-spinning is competitive. |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
109
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Competition in EvE, is optional. I'm not forced by the game to go sign up for factional warfare, or try and outbid someone on the market; I'm allowed, should I wish, to ignore those aspects of the game entirely and do my own thing. So what do you do in this game that is completely non-competitive? I mine.
This might come as a complete shock to you, but.... You're competing with other miners when you mine. |
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Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
504
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:I mine.
So I'm assuming that you don't sell your minerals on the market at all? eh |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
946
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:So what do you do in this game that is completely non-competitive? I mine. This might come as a complete shock to you, but.... You're competing with other miners when you mine. Hey, that's my ore. Why I'll... get a Catalyst and remove you from my ore.
There's ore in them there belts ! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:49:00 -
[33] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:At least clicking the link to open the post wasn't too much for you. Good luck with your button pushing.
visibly upset rabble rabble |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
171
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 04:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
Messiah complex. Not worth thinking about it, really. The game is all about what the goons want. Fine with me. |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
109
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 05:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: This might come as a complete shock to you, but.... You're competing with other miners when you mine.
Hey, that's my ore. Why I'll... get a Catalyst and remove you from my ore.
There's ore in them there belts ![/quote]
I'll have to suggest this to the miners in my 'current' corp. |
Evelyn Meiyi
Meiyi Family Holdings
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 05:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Serene Repose wrote:The first goal of a corporation is to make money, not create a good game. They are mutually exclusive. Presumably, a "good game" is what is needed to "make money" in the video game industry. So much for your argument! Actually, ("so much for your argument", hilarious) good games are too difficult for the general public and never make the kind of money corporations like to see. They want something for the teeming, mindless masses...you know, like Mitt said in the "article." "So much for your argument..." Whatta hoot!
Actually. this is more true than you realize, especially since the mid-1990s.
Once Big Business started to realize that computer games are a profitable enterprise, more and more companies got into the field (including a good many that never should have). Since then, games have slowly gone from being something that a company takes pride in making (anyone remember King's Quest, or Space Quest?), to being just a line on the balance sheet of some mindless corporate drone that has no idea what the industry is all about.
With some amazing exceptions (EVE Online, World of Warcraft, and Bioshock come immediately to mind), it stopped being about making a 'good game' and more about 'maintaining a profit margin', even at the expense of quality. Releases were rushed, products left half-finished, and companies struggled against schedules that were impossible to meet if they wanted to launch a product of any quality.
The industry is coming back, now, slowly -- but it's not done healing yet. |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
109
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 05:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Serene Repose wrote:The first goal of a corporation is to make money, not create a good game. They are mutually exclusive. Presumably, a "good game" is what is needed to "make money" in the video game industry. So much for your argument! Actually, ("so much for your argument", hilarious) good games are too difficult for the general public and never make the kind of money corporations like to see. They want something for the teeming, mindless masses...you know, like Mitt said in the "article." "So much for your argument..." Whatta hoot! Actually. this is more true than you realize, especially since the mid-1990s. Once Big Business started to realize that computer games are a profitable enterprise, more and more companies got into the field (including a good many that never should have). Since then, games have slowly gone from being something that a company takes pride in making (anyone remember King's Quest, or Space Quest?), to being just a line on the balance sheet of some mindless corporate drone that has no idea what the industry is all about. With some amazing exceptions (EVE Online, World of Warcraft, and Bioshock come immediately to mind), it stopped being about making a 'good game' and more about 'maintaining a profit margin', even at the expense of quality. Releases were rushed, products left half-finished, and companies struggled against schedules that were impossible to meet if they wanted to launch a product of any quality. The industry is coming back, now, slowly -- but it's not done healing yet.
I noticed you add World of Warcraft as an exception, but it really isn't. Blizzard cares more about lost profit than any other company. |
stoicfaux
1081
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 05:49:00 -
[38] - Quote
Eh, I was under the impression that the problem is suicide ganking in hi-sec is a little too one-sided in favor of the ganker. Meaning, it's too "safe" of an activity with its mostly predictable bring-X-firepower, you have X seconds before concord arrives, you lose X standings, etc.. Or maybe high-sec ganking is "easy" because it's impractical for the victims to fight back.
High-sec would be safer if gankers were actually treated as outlaws (i.e. shoot on sight for players and sentry guns) after their first criminal act, and the outlaw flag wasn't removed until after the criminal paid restitution to the victim (which with the war tracking feature should be relatively easy to implement.)
Anyway, if you want to curb hi-sec suicide ganking, try giving the high-sec players the tools to enforce the peace themselves.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|
Aggressive Nutmeg
247
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 05:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:No one has ever said they should be protected from ganking. They have said the consequences are not balanced. And, this argument has been very eloquently stated from several corners. It's also true Mitt and his minions haven't bothered to try to respond to that argument. Rather, they try to characterize the dispute as he does in this article - claiming the "others" want no consequences, when it is them all along. If they are summarily made to pay a real price for their activity, they cry like carebears. Such disingenuousness is not unknown for Mitt. It's his hallmark, along with obfuscation and distortion. That he can get a bevy of people to follow him while offering no more than that speaks more of them than it does of him.
How long will he be able to mischaracterize in order to cultivate his imagined position as an MMO rock star, who knows, and really, who cares? Being a big fish in a small pond may have its perks. That's something I'll never bother to discover. However, the entire thrust of what he said in this "article" in this "publication" of some imagined importance is as significant as is the speaker. Broadbrushed histories replete with histrionics on the story of gaming is nothing new. He seems to have repeated the litany well enough. Though, it's said in every general chat function in every game online today; not too original.
That this publication would bother to print what he said speaks more to their lack of potential content than the veracity or stature of the one interviewed. Games always, and will always, rely upon their quality as such from the inventors and developers of the games. Players like to present themselves as more than just players. Wannabees abound. If a game rises and falls, it will always be the responsibility and doing of the management. As for EVE, it may be listening to the players...or player...will become the biggest mistake they'll ever make. Time will tell.
Mitts come and go. There's nothing new to that. Good games? Good luck. Egos aren't gifted with the intelligence required to design a good one. At this point, egos rule EVE, but the corporate mentality will be making the decisions. The first goal of a corporation is to make money, not create a good game. They are mutually exclusive.
Nice try, Mitt. No cigar. Probably the most eloquent, succinct and accurate expos+¬ ever written about this narcissist and his cult of sycophants. Well done. Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana. |
Peta Michalek
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
Quote:there is a silent, ignorant herd of players who genuinely believe that EVE is just like the other MMOs on the market - the PvP-optional, hand-holding MMOs who will pat you on the back, wipe away your tears, and give you a 30-second respawn with no consequences.
Generally speaking if you want your "article" to be taken even remotely seriously you should avoid sweeping generalizations like turning "consentual PvP in one small area of the entire game you're free to leave the moment you start if you so choose" into "hand-holding" and "no consequences". |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
508
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Once Big Business started to realize that computer games are a profitable enterprise, more and more companies got into the field (including a good many that never should have). Since then, games have slowly gone from being something that a company takes pride in making (anyone remember King's Quest, or Space Quest?), to being just a line on the balance sheet of some mindless corporate drone that has no idea what the industry is all about.
With some amazing exceptions (EVE Online, World of Warcraft, and Bioshock come immediately to mind), it stopped being about making a 'good game' and more about 'maintaining a profit margin', even at the expense of quality. Releases were rushed, products left half-finished, and companies struggled against schedules that were impossible to meet if they wanted to launch a product of any quality.
The industry is coming back, now, slowly -- but it's not done healing yet.
This is very true. World of Warcraft isn't successful for any reason other than being a good game on its own. It's not for some people, myself included, but it's loaded with content and it keeps players interested if they're into the themepark thing.
EVE is successful by virtue of having withstood nine consecutive years of operation. CCP, an upstart game development house in Iceland started by a group of Ultima Online players, managed to roll out a game that initially had a very poor outlook based on reviews which predicted that it'd flop within a year.
If CCP wants to appeal to a broader audience, great - they can do that with DUST, the vampire game or whatever. Changing EVE to make it WoW in Space would inevitably lead to failure as you cannot beat WoW at being WoW. The last time they tried to change EVE in such a way, or even discussed it, led to a massive riot in Jita and the massive number of unsubs. eh |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
508
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
Peta Michalek wrote:Generally speaking if you want your "article" to be taken even remotely seriously you should avoid sweeping generalizations like turning "consentual PvP in one small area of the entire game you're free to leave the moment you start if you so choose" into "hand-holding" and "no consequences".
okay go write an article about how hisec should be consensual PvP only eh |
Aggressive Nutmeg
247
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Eh, I was under the impression that the problem is suicide ganking in hi-sec is a little too one-sided in favor of the ganker. Meaning, it's too "safe" of an activity with its mostly predictable bring-X-firepower, you have X seconds before concord arrives, you lose X standings, etc.. Or maybe high-sec ganking is "easy" because it's impractical for the victims to fight back. This is a really good point. The victim of a suicide-gank has a vague, general understanding of risk, but has no idea of the who/when/how of his impending death.
On the other hand, the suicide-ganker knows precisely what the outcome will be. He controls the entire encounter. He knows what all the variables are.
So where's the risk for the suicide-ganker? He has agreed to sacrifice his ship and to take a meaningless sec status hit.
Surely the concept of risk v reward involves taking a risk that the outcome might go differently to what you would like?
You're right. It's really one-sided. Suicide-ganking should remain part of the game (because I like to do it sometimes ), but it's currently too easy and risk-free.
Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana. |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
480
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
Very nice read and spot-on. This cancer is everywhere. One really does not need to seek hard to find players actually believe that competition is 'optional' and they are 'entiteled' to ignore others and do their 'own thing'. I support every action to fight it.
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Whatever the reason, one thing is clear - they wish to destroy the philosophy behind the design of EVE, that competition is not optional, and the niche of the MMO world where it reigns - the PvP-centric MMO.
Competition in EvE, is optional. I'm not forced by the game to go sign up for factional warfare, or try and outbid someone on the market; I'm allowed, should I wish, to ignore those aspects of the game entirely and do my own thing. You do realize that every action you do in-game has some consequences to other players . It is not possible to play the game 'on your own'. |
Zoe Athame
Fweddit
49
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
The thread title is in dire need of correct punctuation. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
508
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:13:00 -
[46] - Quote
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:So where's the risk for the suicide-ganker?
Failing a gank? Getting a really crappy loot drop? eh |
nat longshot
New Eden Inc.
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:leviticus ander wrote:a little unrelated, did he end up getting permabanned and that's why he's doing all his whining on things like ten ton hammer and his moral speeches? or is he just staying away from the forums, or what? He totally didn't post a thread earlier today that has stayed on top of the General Discussion subforum and will stay on the first page for weeks to come. He's obviously permabanned.
Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch.
Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
508
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:15:00 -
[48] - Quote
nat longshot wrote:Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch.
Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons.
If CCP was to take a step in that direction I think we'd have no further interest in this game, bans or otherwise. eh |
nat longshot
New Eden Inc.
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:20:00 -
[49] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:nat longshot wrote:Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch.
Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons. If CCP was to take a step in that direction I think we'd have no further interest in this game, bans or otherwise.
My point of view the only time goon or Miitani feels like he has any power in life is ot mess with others in eve life sad really. But his permaban is comeing keep pissing ccp off and soon goons will be no more,
Will i miss goon no but i never missed nc or BOB eather so. grow to big and youll fail like the rest. |
Peta Michalek
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:You do realize that every action you do in-game has some consequences to other players . It is not possible to play the game 'on your own'.
Depends what do you mean by consequences. If I kill a rat at Asteroid field B and he respawns on top of another player in Asteroid Field H, then yes, technically I created a consequence for another player. But that amount of consequence exists in any MMO and is in no way exclusive to EVE.
If you mean the global economy and such then yes, it can be avoided completely. Buy only skillbooks and blueprints off of NPCs, gather/reprocess your own minerals, build your own ships, do your own research and invention, and spend your free time ratting, doing NPC missions and DED exclusively. A whole lot of content you could do completely on your own and not care about anything - or anyone - else. |
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
508
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:23:00 -
[51] - Quote
nat longshot wrote:But his permaban is comeing keep pissing ccp off and soon goons will be no more,
Is English your first language? eh |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
480
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:24:00 -
[52] - Quote
nat longshot wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:leviticus ander wrote:a little unrelated, did he end up getting permabanned and that's why he's doing all his whining on things like ten ton hammer and his moral speeches? or is he just staying away from the forums, or what? He totally didn't post a thread earlier today that has stayed on top of the General Discussion subforum and will stay on the first page for weeks to come. He's obviously permabanned. Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch. Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons. Wow. If you can't beat him in-game you are hoping that CCP will permaban him? Is this the kind of game you want to play? |
seany1212
Zat's Affiliated Traders Originally Riotous Corps
171
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:40:00 -
[53] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:nat longshot wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:leviticus ander wrote:a little unrelated, did he end up getting permabanned and that's why he's doing all his whining on things like ten ton hammer and his moral speeches? or is he just staying away from the forums, or what? He totally didn't post a thread earlier today that has stayed on top of the General Discussion subforum and will stay on the first page for weeks to come. He's obviously permabanned. Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch. Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons. Wow. If you can't beat him in-game you are hoping that CCP will permaban him? Is this the kind of game you want to play?
Unfortunately there are becoming more of these players...
I thought it was a very good article representing the way ive viewed eve for a while and ive only been playing since 08, god knows how those who've been playing years before me view the game as now.
For those bleeting that suicide ganking is easy, its only easy because you make it so. As for the reprocusions i went from practically 0 security status to -4.2 for 2 hulks, a retriever and a pod in 0.5 and 0.6 spaces. I now can only go in 0.5 and below and if i dipped below -5 im shootable anywhere in space. I fail to see how that isnt just rewards. Then again there are people bleeting to ban others for not playing to their gamestyle... |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
726
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:42:00 -
[54] - Quote
Woah, this game seriously may be going places when Mittani himself says "Play my way or go away". EVE is Serious Business: You shall not feel entitled to being allowed to play EVE just because you are paying it. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
947
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:43:00 -
[55] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:Lexmana wrote:nat longshot wrote:Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch.
Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons. Wow. If you can't beat him in-game you are hoping that CCP will permaban him? Is this the kind of game you want to play? Unfortunately there are becoming more of these players... I thought it was a very good article representing the way ive viewed eve for a while and ive only been playing since 08, god knows how those who've been playing years before me view the game as now. For those bleeting that suicide ganking is easy, its only easy because you make it so. As for the reprocusions i went from practically 0 security status to -4.2 for 2 hulks, a retriever and a pod in 0.5 and 0.6 spaces. I now can only go in 0.5 and below and if i dipped below -5 im shootable anywhere in space. I fail to see how that isnt just rewards. Then again there are people bleeting to ban others for not playing to their gamestyle... You should push to just ban all the goons. Heck the whole CFC, why not since you're at it.
I mean, threads have already been made on this subject, people will seriously repond to it. Of course goons will as well, because we all need our laughs, but that's the harsh world of the EVEO General Discussion forum.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
355
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
Everything inthis game is about competition, even the mining industry has some cutthroat competition, you want the best mining systems for your own corp and of course you want the best price for yourminerals if you decide to sell them and this goes up all the way to the top with even bigger profit margins or losses, violence is only a way to solve matters when everything else fails Ofcourse many of these new generation of players (griefers) can t even spell tbe word economy let alone how itworks They the same kind of teenagers that makes me despise WoW or any of the online shooter games the I MUST WIN geberation at its worse
So claiming that staying out of pvp is avoiding competition is just bullshit, but i didn t expect anything smart from that egocentric bully
It is now on CCP to act , either they take action to avoid a large number of subcribers to leave or allow their own game to die a slow death with lower and lower subscriptions each quarter I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1541
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:53:00 -
[57] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I don't' recall any movements towards making the game safe, especially to such level that goons must somehow fight back against it to save the game.
There are always suggestions in the forums about it, for an against, but this is business as usual. What specifically happened that such action is needed to save the game from a kind of "Carebearism"? You're kidding, right? Or were you simply not around long enough? Mind you, I don't judge people through player age; we all have to be new at some point, so don't take that as an insult, whether or not you're new. But seriously, the amount of changes made to soften the game is staggering. And to me, it reads like a bucket list.
Yet there are still camps, blobs, bubbles, suicide ganks... or is it not easy enough?
Who really wants the game to be easy?
I was around when the game had people calling themselves pirates who acted like real pirates and only went for targets of value, not targets "for lulz". There is a huge difference between a "sandbox" where people are doing what they want and a sandbox where one kid bonks another over the head with the pale and shovel and points and laughs. When the latter happens enough, Mommy (CCP) is going to restrict that pale and shovel. Nothing I can do anything about. I am not swinging a pale and I know how to duck too.
Feel free to post the bucket list when you have time. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
984
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:55:00 -
[58] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:For those bleeting that suicide ganking is easy, its only easy because you make it so.
Suicide ganking is easy, because it is EASY. Please don't try to make it sound like it is some complex and compelling game play, because it isn't. Simply fit T1 ship with cookie cutter T1 mods. Warp in at optimal range. Push button and receive bacon. It is very easy bro.
seany1212 wrote:As for the reprocusions i went from practically 0 security status to -4.2 for 2 hulks, a retriever and a pod in 0.5 and 0.6 spaces. I now can only go in 0.5 and below and if i dipped below -5 im shootable anywhere in space. I fail to see how that isnt just rewards. Then again there are people bleeting to ban others for not playing to their gamestyle...
Don't pod and you can stretch out that sec status much farther before retreating back to your null space to work that sec status off. You know that part of the game where you get paid to work it off. That part of the game where Concord gives no fucks about who you shoot, but for some strange reason keeps tabs on how many red crosses you pop?
Every step of suicide ganking is a profit. That is why it is so popular.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Bunnie Hop
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
145
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:57:00 -
[59] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I don't' recall any movements towards making the game safe, especially to such level that goons must somehow fight back against it to save the game.
There are always suggestions in the forums about it, for an against, but this is business as usual. What specifically happened that such action is needed to save the game from a kind of "Carebearism"?
Mitt got his 30 day ban and his ego cannot handle it, so now he has called out to his brainless drones to help him seek some sort of retribution in an attempt to be relevent. None of this is about hi sec miners or a sense of entitlement of non pvp'ers, its all about Mitt and his insecurities. |
Pok Nibin
Viziam Amarr Empire
184
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 06:58:00 -
[60] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:nat longshot wrote:Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch.
Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons. If CCP was to take a step in that direction I think we'd have no further interest in this game, bans or otherwise. There IS a GOD!! On your way out...don't let the door hit yah where the good Lord split yah! Don't fight it.-á Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs.-á You know you want to. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
947
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:01:00 -
[61] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:It is now on CCP to act , either they take action to avoid a large number of subcribers to leave or allow their own game to die a slow death with lower and lower subscriptions each quarter Yep, I've heard this argument somewhere before. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
984
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:03:00 -
[62] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:nat longshot wrote:Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch.
Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons. If CCP was to take a step in that direction I think we'd have no further interest in this game, bans or otherwise. There IS a GOD!! On your way out...don't let the door hit yah where the good Lord split yah!
Even if CCP perma banned mittens, I highly doubt any goon would quit the game over it. Goons need EVE to survive.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
484
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:05:00 -
[63] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:It is now on CCP to act , either they take action to avoid a large number of subcribers to leave or allow their own game to die a slow death with lower and lower subscriptions each quarter Subscribers have been leaving EVE for for a decade and yet it has been growing every single year. I wonder why.
|
seany1212
Zat's Affiliated Traders Originally Riotous Corps
171
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:07:00 -
[64] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:seany1212 wrote:For those bleeting that suicide ganking is easy, its only easy because you make it so. Suicide ganking is easy, because it is EASY. Please don't try to make it sound like it is some complex and compelling game play, because it isn't. Simply fit T1 ship with cookie cutter T1 mods. Warp in at optimal range. Push button and receive bacon. It is very easy bro. seany1212 wrote:As for the reprocusions i went from practically 0 security status to -4.2 for 2 hulks, a retriever and a pod in 0.5 and 0.6 spaces. I now can only go in 0.5 and below and if i dipped below -5 im shootable anywhere in space. I fail to see how that isnt just rewards. Then again there are people bleeting to ban others for not playing to their gamestyle... Don't pod and you can stretch out that sec status much farther before retreating back to your null space to work that sec status off. You know that part of the game where you get paid to work it off. That part of the game where Concord gives no fucks about who you shoot, but for some strange reason keeps tabs on how many red crosses you pop? Every step of suicide ganking is a profit. That is why it is so popular.
Except this works for the most part as at least half of the hulks in eve have no mids and only mining modules in the lows. I reckon if someone used the 22k ehp T2 shield fit thats floating around and used ECM drones rather than trying to pop you with hammers i'd like to bet they'd stop 2 or 3 catalysts attempting to gank. Yes they could bring more numbers after that and anything can be popped given enough numbers but it'd depend on either hos stupid your miner was or how afk.
Also i dont live in null, bro |
Baby ChuChu
Ice Cream Asylum
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
One half crying. The other half whining about the first half crying.
Eve, where dreams come true. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
947
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:11:00 -
[66] - Quote
Baby ChuChu wrote:One half crying. The other half whining about the first half crying.
Eve, where dreams come true. It's beautiful, isn't it.
Even the forums are part of this sandbox it's so ... breathtaking in the completeness of the game. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
514
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:11:00 -
[67] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Suicide ganking is easy, because it is EASY.
It's a lot harder when the targets aren't botserrr AFK miners. eh |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
623
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:14:00 -
[68] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Yet there are still camps, blobs, bubbles, suicide ganks... or is it not easy enough? I certainly can say a lot of things on the subject, but to a person who cannot differentiate difficulty created by player actions that can be countered by player reactions of the same degree, and difficulty created by artificial ceilings hard-coded into the game's core structure, the words would be lost to the wind.
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Who really wants the game to be easy? ...
I'm sorry, I can't do this anymore. I know that like all players, you have your own agenda when it comes to the direction of this game, and I can respect that. But I don't have children, and this degree of spoon-feeding is simply beyond my capabilities. |
Spurty
D00M. Northern Coalition.
278
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:20:00 -
[69] - Quote
There was a time when battleships went faster than a dramiel, fast enough to have drones and missiles flying in knotts.
Ships had only 50% the hit points they do now and no one warped to zero anywhere (except corp mates and book marks, you could always warp to those at zero).
A Titan could destroy an infinite amount of un-tanked ships, remotely (not even on grid).
It (the game) really has been made a lot easier and that's exactly why there's more than 10,000 people logged in at peak hours. ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
516
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:33:00 -
[70] - Quote
Spurty wrote:There was a time when battleships went faster than a dramiel, fast enough to have drones and missiles flying in knotts.
Ships had only 50% the hit points they do now and no one warped to zero anywhere (except corp mates and book marks, you could always warp to those at zero).
A Titan could destroy an infinite amount of un-tanked ships, remotely (not even on grid).
It (the game) really has been made a lot easier and that's exactly why there's more than 10,000 people logged in at peak hours.
Only two of the examples you mentioned made the game "harder," and the warp-to-zero thing was needed IIRC because of the insane amount of bookmarks being copied that generated massive server load. AoE doomsdays brought 0.0 warfare to a halt considering that taking down a jammer meant soaking multiple doomsdays from titans only poking out of the POS shields momentarily, not nearly long enough to be destroyed. I wasn't around for the nano nerf, but 800 m/s Titans sound absolutely and undoubtedly broken. eh |
|
Tauranon
Weeesearch
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:39:00 -
[71] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Eh, I was under the impression that the problem is suicide ganking in hi-sec is a little too one-sided in favor of the ganker. Meaning, it's too "safe" of an activity with its mostly predictable bring-X-firepower, you have X seconds before concord arrives, you lose X standings, etc.. Or maybe high-sec ganking is "easy" because it's impractical for the victims to fight back.
High-sec would be safer if gankers were actually treated as outlaws (i.e. shoot on sight for players and sentry guns) after their first criminal act, and the outlaw flag wasn't removed until after the criminal paid restitution to the victim (which with the war tracking feature should be relatively easy to implement.)
Anyway, if you want to curb hi-sec suicide ganking, try giving the high-sec players the tools to enforce the peace themselves.
The mechanisms are adequate for defending, but you really need to be able to fly a couple of races ships, have good combat skills and store them in the ops orca, as well as make the right split second decision ship and engagement choice, and you need your miners to have actually fitted the right tank, and turned it on!
This generally precludes a player without multiple years of training, or requires the defender to not have trained mining skills, and thus to not be in a hulk waiting for the ganker to switch. This is the kind of thing you'd imagine a mining corp could do, but of course a mining corp will just get wardecced.
It will also take endless years of ganking before that will ever be perceived as necessary by a miner, and as a combat player, I can't see me being remotely interested in sitting around in a highsec belt for 2 hours waiting for the gankers to show.
The nature of highsec PVE and PVA (player vs asteroid) would have to be seriously reconsidered and remade to provoke an environment where cooperation was rewarded more, and solo play was reduced. |
Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Oddball Six wrote: The article appears to completely skip over the fact that not every player is a super fan. Sorry bubba, welcome to the world where people have more to do than read all of the wonderful text and podcasts, and places like this. For every superfan going to all of these outlets, ...
Well, for a casual player that is blatant ignorant about the eve community you seam pretty dedicated to change the game. You should really ask yourself if you are in the right place, maybe a single player simulation where you don't have to interact with other players would suit your needs much better.
Oddball Six wrote: Rather, I think the problem is that people are pointing to controls that are already there, being violated in new ways and manipulated by larger scale metagaming and saying "whats the deal CCP, is this a game design element or not? Do you have a policy on this or not?" If CCP wants to allow the behavior, then there need to be the discussion about balance and intent.
Why don't you try to find out? The answer is out there! |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
516
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:43:00 -
[73] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Eh, I was under the impression that the problem is suicide ganking in hi-sec is a little too one-sided in favor of the ganker. Meaning, it's too "safe" of an activity with its mostly predictable bring-X-firepower, you have X seconds before concord arrives, you lose X standings, etc.. Or maybe high-sec ganking is "easy" because it's impractical for the victims to fight back.
High-sec would be safer if gankers were actually treated as outlaws (i.e. shoot on sight for players and sentry guns) after their first criminal act, and the outlaw flag wasn't removed until after the criminal paid restitution to the victim (which with the war tracking feature should be relatively easy to implement.)
Anyway, if you want to curb hi-sec suicide ganking, try giving the high-sec players the tools to enforce the peace themselves.
See, you had me until you mentioned "sentry guns." Stop encouraging more dependence on NPCs. eh |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
877
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
Entered thread expecting either random pubbie psychopath making death threat against Mittani or at least someone suggesting the pubbies rise up and attack VFK, or even suggestions that CCP break the rules of the sandbox to prevent Goons from doing something legal under the EULA/TOS and/or directly harass Mittani.
Turns out it was #3: Clueless morons trying to blackmail CCP via unsubs (when in reality Goon's antics drive player subscriptions) into somehow singling out Goonswarm for harassment.
Thread does not disappoint. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
948
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:47:00 -
[75] - Quote
Karak Terrel wrote:Oddball Six wrote: Rather, I think the problem is that people are pointing to controls that are already there, being violated in new ways and manipulated by larger scale metagaming and saying "whats the deal CCP, is this a game design element or not? Do you have a policy on this or not?" If CCP wants to allow the behavior, then there need to be the discussion about balance and intent. Why don't you try to find out? The answer is out there! I like the way he uses the word "violate".
In his mind it's already an exploit. There's no real question in his mind - he's already decided. Maybe it should be a bannable exploit.
Of course CCP might think otherwise, but they haven't had the time to agree with him yet. But they will surely ~~ Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
948
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:49:00 -
[76] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Eh, I was under the impression that the problem is suicide ganking in hi-sec is a little too one-sided in favor of the ganker. Meaning, it's too "safe" of an activity with its mostly predictable bring-X-firepower, you have X seconds before concord arrives, you lose X standings, etc.. Or maybe high-sec ganking is "easy" because it's impractical for the victims to fight back.
High-sec would be safer if gankers were actually treated as outlaws (i.e. shoot on sight for players and sentry guns) after their first criminal act, and the outlaw flag wasn't removed until after the criminal paid restitution to the victim (which with the war tracking feature should be relatively easy to implement.)
Anyway, if you want to curb hi-sec suicide ganking, try giving the high-sec players the tools to enforce the peace themselves.
See, you had me until you mentioned "sentry guns." Stop encouraging more dependence on NPCs. Player-owned sentry guns, you mean. Right? That IS what you meant, isn't it?
That's not a bad idea, a small POS-like gun thing you can deploy (put some ammo in it) and it covers you. Of course, you have to remember to pick it back up or something afterwards.
How does a nice fancy T2 sentry gun sound? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
516
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:50:00 -
[77] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Player-owned sentry guns, you mean. Right? That IS what you meant, isn't it?
That's not a bad idea, a small POS-like gun thing you can deploy (put some ammo in it) and it covers you. Of course, you have to remember to pick it back up or something afterwards.
How does a nice fancy T2 sentry gun sound?
I have some of those, they're called "Garde II" and "Bouncer II" eh |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:52:00 -
[78] - Quote
WHAT?! HUH?!!?! GOONs are going to Biomass!!!
HTFU!!! |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
516
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:53:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:WHAT?! HUH?!!?! GOONs are going to Biomass!!!
HTFU!!!
You've never made sense hope this helps eh |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1541
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:56:00 -
[80] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Yet there are still camps, blobs, bubbles, suicide ganks... or is it not easy enough? I certainly can say a lot of things on the subject, but to a person who cannot differentiate difficulty created by player actions that can be countered by player reactions of the same degree, and difficulty created by artificial ceilings hard-coded into the game's core structure, the words would be lost to the wind. Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Who really wants the game to be easy? ... I'm sorry, I can't do this anymore. I know that like all players, you have your own agenda when it comes to the direction of this game, and I can respect that. But I don't have children, and this degree of spoon-feeding is simply beyond my capabilities.
You are doing what Mitt does. Presuming there is something to fight against, while acting like the thing you are fighting against is so horrible, that you will not even work on it except for some heavy handed solution. Are you always this dramatic?
All I see is a game, a game where there are challenges. I am sorry that seems to bug you so much. As for my agenda, I play alone, a style that CCP hates the most. I have posted many times that the only way they are going to nerf me is to create an " explode on undock of not a member of major alliance" mechanic. I always say "bring the pain" because they can make more challenges for the same price of a sub. That's like a free expansion.
People like you are no better then the people you claim to be against. You want it just as easy as the so-called carebears, except your kind of easy. I get enough of this dealing with politics, people wanting "the system" to boost them and screw people they don't like, without any adapting or effort. This is a bad habit that infests the western cultures, a sense of entitlement born of complaining. I see it from Hulk pilots and those who want to destroy them. This is why I play alone, no matter how many times I get run off of juicy radar sites by both NPC and the SOV holders alike.
Sad. Better check the news. There are better things to be so dramatic about. I envy you in a way. You probably think you zinged me while I feel like I am trying to win the Special Olympics just by responding to you.
|
|
Elena Melkan
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
Bunnie Hop wrote:Mitt got his 30 day ban and his ego cannot handle it, so now he has called out to his brainless drones to help him seek some sort of retribution in an attempt to be relevent. None of this is about hi sec miners or a sense of entitlement of non pvp'ers, its all about Mitt and his insecurities. I'd say his ego handled the situation incredibly well. He managed to turn it all for good, despite the fact that he had in certain way "betrayed" those who voted for him in CSM elections. Besides, there is nothing wrong in using what the sandbox has to offer: all the people who complain about goons could do something to it, instead of whine and ask the game to change, ban the goons or whatever comes to your mind. You could actually arrange and make something happen in the game! It may not be easy and might take some time, but everything is possible.
Logically this article was aimed towards people who think they live in a baby cradle and think nothing can harm them. There are miners and industrialists and PvE-players, who know that this game is harsh and they act that way: they take precautions and if they get blown up, they come back even stronger than before. Instead of, uh, hop into forums and write something like: "boohooo, CCP do something to it, or I'll unsub!". |
EFF ONEF1
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 07:56:00 -
[82] - Quote
He sure is wordy about a game he claims to rarely log into. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
878
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:01:00 -
[83] - Quote
EFF ONEF1 wrote:He sure is wordy about a game he claims to rarely log into.
He doesn't log on as "The Mittani" very often. Pay attention, exact wording is important!
Also: He's paid to write those 10 Ton Hammer columns, I think. So yeah. He's literally paid to be the leader of Goonswarm. He's entitled to a little ~smug~ in his life. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
518
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:03:00 -
[84] - Quote
Xython wrote:EFF ONEF1 wrote:He sure is wordy about a game he claims to rarely log into. He doesn't log on as "The Mittani" very often. Pay attention, exact wording is important!
The Mittani isn't known for his ~luv2play~ eh |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:03:00 -
[85] - Quote
Personally I agree (gasp) with the Titanni on his point of pvp being non-optional. The option to do or be anything is the core of Eve Online, even to be a goon if you choose.
However I also believe that all hi-sec so-called pvp is as a rule pathetic, as are the sub-life forms that engage in it, with the suicide gankers being the lowest class of said sub-life form. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
518
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:04:00 -
[86] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:However I also believe that all hi-sec so-called pvp is as a rule pathetic, as are the sub-life forms that engage in it, with the suicide gankers being the lowest class of said sub-life form.
NO HONOURE? eh |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
878
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:05:00 -
[87] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Personally I agree (gasp) with the Titanni on his point of pvp being non-optional. The option to do or be anything is the core of Eve Online, even to be a goon if you choose.
However I also believe that all hi-sec so-called pvp is as a rule pathetic, as are the sub-life forms that engage in it, with the suicide gankers being the lowest class of said sub-life form.
The sad thing is, if the highsec miners hadn't killed nullsec mining with their incessant bitching at CCP, illegal botting, and general "Screw EVE, wallet flashes make me hard" mentality, then these suicide gankers would be off in Nullsec, hunting nullsec miners.
Except there aren't any, because ~~bot bot bot~~. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
948
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:06:00 -
[88] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Personally I agree (gasp) with the Titanni on his point of pvp being non-optional. The option to do or be anything is the core of Eve Online, even to be a goon if you choose.
However I also believe that all hi-sec so-called pvp is as a rule pathetic, as are the sub-life forms that engage in it, with the suicide gankers being the lowest class of said sub-life form. So you would say that perhaps these "sub-life forms" need to be "purged", or perhaps "cleansed"? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:33:00 -
[89] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:NO HONOURE? None my friend
Alavaria Fera wrote:So you would say that perhaps these "sub-life forms" need to be "purged", or perhaps "cleansed"? Nope, as I said, the core of Eve is to be whatever you want to be, even a goon.
Xython wrote:The sad thing is, if the highsec miners hadn't killed nullsec mining with their incessant bitching at CCP, illegal botting, and general "Screw EVE, wallet flashes make me hard" mentality, then these suicide gankers would be off in Nullsec, hunting nullsec miners.
Except there aren't any, because ~~bot bot bot~~. That is entirely incorrect. Ratting in supers in the drone regions is what killed all forms of mining, both hi-sec and nul-sec. But that has now been fixed, to the contentment of a hive of busy miners that I personally know in both areas.
Suicide ganking is pathetic, and no justification will make it any less so. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
522
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 08:50:00 -
[90] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Suicide ganking is pathetic, and no justification will make it any less so.
i'm sorry you feel that way and we're not playing the game by your standards of e-bushido
i will proceed to commit seppuku as i have disgraced my family
actually no i'm just laffoin at u eh |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7493
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 09:04:00 -
[91] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:So what do you do in this game that is completely non-competitive? I donno, do L4s count? Only if you do ones that simply require you to shoot everything, and if you only do them for the LP, and if you don't cash in that LP, and if you do them in a newbie ship with newbie weaponsGǪ
GǪanything more than that, and you've engaged in plenty competitive activities. Sure, the actual GÇ£accept missionGÇ¥ and GÇ£complete missionGÇ¥ buttons can't really be out-competed GÇö you're all alone with the game for those two button presses. Anything before, after, and in-between on the other handGǪ
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:I mine. GǪin competition with other miners who are after the same ore. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
950
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 09:07:00 -
[92] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:So what do you do in this game that is completely non-competitive? I donno, do L4s count? Only if you do ones that simply require you to shoot everything, and if you only do them for the LP, and if you don't cash in that LP, and if you do them in a newbie ship with newbie weaponsGǪ GǪanything more than that, and you've engaged in plenty competitive activities. Sure, the actual GÇ£accept missionGÇ¥ and GÇ£complete missionGÇ¥ buttons can't really be out-competed GÇö you're all alone with the game for those two button presses. Anything before, after, and in-between on the other handGǪ Wait, you can use quest given destroyers and rat dropped loot, I think - that would still suffice.
So maybe a Coercer with a set of lazers and stuff, you could do L2s maybe?
Dropped BPOs, mining from missions sites - might still not get enough highend minerals. Perhaps melt your rat loot to get enough. But production slots to make a bigger ship would be competetive. Maybe not if no one at all was using slots really far away? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 09:16:00 -
[93] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:Suicide ganking is pathetic, and no justification will make it any less so. i'm sorry you feel that way and we're not playing the game by your standards of e-bushido i will proceed to commit seppuku as i have disgraced my family actually no i'm just laffoin at u
May I second myself to strike off your head?
I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7493
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 09:26:00 -
[94] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Wait, you can use quest given destroyers and rat dropped loot, I think - that would still suffice. The destroyer, maybe, the loot not so muchGǪ anyone could come along as steal that so you have to compete with them.
Any kind of loot is right out GÇö only the rewards from the agents work, and a lot of it is contingent on delivering stuff that is open to competition. I suppose you could L1/L2-grind your way to faction standing 10 and collect a faction cruiser/BS from the COSMOS agents, but you'd still not be able to equip it with anything that lets it survive anything above an L2. Never mind, I'm being stupid GÇö they give you BPCs, so you can't use them either. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
102
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 09:34:00 -
[95] - Quote
"Through education or violence, they must learn that EVEGÇÖs difficulty is what makes the game unique and worthwhile, rather than just another consequence-free PvP-optional themepark game."
The Mittani If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3992
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 09:43:00 -
[96] - Quote
Oddball Six wrote:Where the premise of this writer sees "growing and dangerous" from the perspective of someone in "goonswarm", there are several debatable premises here.
[list=1]
If "they" (whoever that is) wish to destroy the philosophy behind eve... what is that exactly? Doesnt the strictest interpretation of the sandbox so acclaimed in these threads imply that there should be a place int he sandbox for people who want to play in that other corner of the sandbox this writer is not interested in?
yes exactly, but it's the carebear whiners who are interested in adding restrictions to gameplay that violate the sandbox.
"Sandbox" doesn't mean "I get to succeed at whatever I feel like attempting", it means that "I get to attempt whatever I want to succeed at". Other players frustrating or competing against you in your goals is exactly what the sandbox is all about. The whole idea and point and meaning of EVE is that you are playing against other humans, not against scripted AIs. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 10:09:00 -
[97] - Quote
Good read; good points... it is vital to give 0.0 mining a perspective now that there is, next to other things, no drone poo anymore. I like the pragmatic approach here...actually there are quite some paralells to RL economic problems...
SO suicide ganking is indeed very important for the whole eve industry and economy. Adidionally I agree that there never should be a place (except docked in high sec) where there is full security....that would ruin the very idea of EvE. |
Evelyn Meiyi
Meiyi Family Holdings
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 10:40:00 -
[98] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: I noticed you add World of Warcraft as an exception, but it really isn't. Blizzard cares more about lost profit than any other company.
WoW is losing players, but Blizzard is actively trying to stem the exodus; I'm referring specifically to companies that are forced by their corporate managers to rush a half-finished game to market simply because it's a holiday season and people will be buying lots of computer games.
Anyway, back to the original topic:
Eugene, I agree: there shouldn't be a place where you're entirely secure. High-security space should be better-protected, because -- hey -- it's the sovereign space of an entire empire. |
c4 t
Push Pharmaceuticals Push Interstellar Network
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 11:04:00 -
[99] - Quote
Great article. All these non trolls crying make me want to puke. If CCP caves to these mongs I.... I dunno what I'd do. |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 11:06:00 -
[100] - Quote
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:So where's the risk for the suicide-ganker?
The risk is.... You may have done all that work for nothing & fail in pulling off the gank. Sorta like when I tried to SB a cluster of macks, only to find out they were heavily tanked & received boosts from multiple Orca's.
So yes, suicide ganking does have it's risks. You just prefere to pretend they don't exist.
|
|
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
114
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 11:07:00 -
[101] - Quote
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote: I noticed you add World of Warcraft as an exception, but it really isn't. Blizzard cares more about lost profit than any other company.
WoW is losing players, but Blizzard is actively trying to stem the exodus; I'm referring specifically to companies that are forced by their corporate managers to rush a half-finished game to market simply because it's a holiday season and people will be buying lots of computer games.
I'm guessing you never played it at release... but yes, topic. Above post.
|
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
72
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 11:17:00 -
[102] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote: I noticed you add World of Warcraft as an exception, but it really isn't. Blizzard cares more about lost profit than any other company.
WoW is losing players, but Blizzard is actively trying to stem the exodus; I'm referring specifically to companies that are forced by their corporate managers to rush a half-finished game to market simply because it's a holiday season and people will be buying lots of computer games. I'm guessing you never played it at release... but yes, topic. Above post.
If my memory is good, witch I doubt, we started for about 1.5Million at public servers start to reach the peak of 15millions about 3 years latter.
I'm sure it's because it was an awful game with crappy graphics, poor toons or personal skills required, poor pve content and extremely poor pvp content, no combat strategies might it be pvp or pve, craft/industry, market trading, yadayada
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
303
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 11:32:00 -
[103] - Quote
We hear the same old flawed logic coming from the same people day after day...
Ganking a Hulk (a non-combat ship) with your destroyer is NOT PVP. The people who do this "professionally" in eve are the ones who are actually avoiding PVP because that miner has no means to combat the gank situation... It's equivalent to someone coming up behind you on the street and punching you head.
Now if you really wanted PVP, you would war dec the corporation or go to an area of space that allows you to PVP in the real sence of the term.
The place people can effectively avoid PVP is in NPC corps. This is what creates a sense of entitlement in the avoidance of PVP.
|
Whisperen
That's Not A Knife Flatline.
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 11:57:00 -
[104] - Quote
Any time you take a action that impacts another player negatively its pvp it dos not matter if they can fight back or not. |
Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 12:01:00 -
[105] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote: Ganking a Hulk (a non-combat ship) with your destroyer is NOT PVP. The people who do this "professionally" in eve are the ones who are actually avoiding PVP because that miner has no means to combat the gank situation... It's equivalent to someone coming up behind you on the street and punching you head.
Are you serious? Ganking a Hulk IS PvP. We can argue about the required skill or morals to do it, but it's undeniably PvP.
It's not specially risky, some would argue it's not "fair" (a curious concept), but it's a form of PvP. And when ganking, the only one SURE to lose their ship is the GANKER.
People fails to understand that it's a sandbox...MMORPG. There are ways for players to inflict misery with consequences to other players.
High sec allows for players to be able to raise their heads until they understand the mechanics of the game. It allows new players to develop certain resources and skills in an environment where the potential gankers would LOSE something and ganking irrelevant things comes at a loss.
High sec does not offer protection. Only consequences. It's up to everybody to avod becoming a target, and for that, I'm glad it exists.
However, I agree that it should be MUCH SMALLER. Less systems. |
Internet Lawyer Steve
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 12:03:00 -
[106] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:words
Wont read it, dont care. Nice way to keep mittens relevant even though he doesnt log in to play the game.
Internet Lawyer Steve and Associates,
Bringing Justice to New Eden, One post at a time... |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
303
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 12:41:00 -
[107] - Quote
Darius Brinn wrote: Are you serious? Ganking a Hulk IS PvP. We can argue about the required skill or morals to do it, but it's undeniably PvP.
I sorry but you are wrong. PVP refers to 2 or more players activeley competing against each other. How is a ganker competing against so guy afk mining veldspar?
The ganker is actually competing against the game mechanics and trying to kill a third party befor his competition (CONCORD) kills him. This is PVE... So grow a pair carebear |
Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:12:00 -
[108] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Darius Brinn wrote: Are you serious? Ganking a Hulk IS PvP. We can argue about the required skill or morals to do it, but it's undeniably PvP.
I'M sorry but you are wrong. PVP refers to 2 or more players actively competing against each other. How is a ganker competing against some guy afk mining veldspar? The ganker is actually competing against the game mechanics and trying to kill a third party befor his competition (CONCORD) kills him. This is PVE... So grow a pair carebear
No. PvP is one player performing an act of aggression on another.
You are referring to CONSENSUAL PvP. Sport. It's nice and fun, but not the only way out there.
Also, while I admit that I am quite risk adverse and my method to deal with pods involve a sniping Naga and 249 Km of distance, in case they get close and hurt me somehow, I never ever got shot at by Concord under any circumstance, so I never ever ganked a miner.
Now, it's a thing I might try eventually. Got almost perfect small blaster skills, got Destroyers V, and maybe I can scratch a few millions for the odd Catalyst every now and then. Only, not know, as Hulks can have flights of Warrior II's and I'm also scared of that. |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
173
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:22:00 -
[109] - Quote
Darius Brinn wrote:Rek Seven wrote: Ganking a Hulk (a non-combat ship) with your destroyer is NOT PVP. The people who do this "professionally" in eve are the ones who are actually avoiding PVP because that miner has no means to combat the gank situation... It's equivalent to someone coming up behind you on the street and punching you head.
Are you serious? Ganking a Hulk IS PvP. We can argue about the required skill or morals to do it, but it's undeniably PvP. It's not specially risky, some would argue it's not "fair" (a curious concept), but it's a form of PvP. And when ganking, the only one SURE to lose their ship is the GANKER. People fails to understand that it's a sandbox...MMORPG. There are ways for players to inflict misery with consequences to other players. High sec allows for players to be able to raise their heads until they understand the mechanics of the game. It allows new players to develop certain resources and skills in an environment where the potential gankers would LOSE something and ganking irrelevant things comes at a loss. High sec does not offer protection. Only consequences. It's up to everybody to avod becoming a target, and for that, I'm glad it exists. However, I agree that it should be MUCH SMALLER. Less systems.
If ganking a miner is PVP then punching your grandma is a fistfight. Make all the excuses you want. It's not combat. It's a sucker punch. You like giving people sucker punches. That's who you are. |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
493
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:22:00 -
[110] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:We hear the same old flawed logic coming from the same people day after day... indeed we do! People should realize the obvious fact that even shooting rocks with mining lasers is PvP. And shooting the one shooting rocks is one of the basic elements of sandbox PvP - denial of resources. |
|
Jame Jarl Retief
Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:26:00 -
[111] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:In his latest Ten Ton Hammer article, The Mittani writes about many players' entitlement to "opt out" of PvP. Some even believe that this game does allow you to "opt out" by living in hisec, where the game's tutorial taught them how to shoot an NPC and mine an asteroid. Many believe that suicide ganking is an exploit, that CONCORD exists to protect them from all harm, and that nonconsensual PvP does not have a place in hisec. Many seem to agree with this notion - "suicide ganks drive away new players," they say. Or "it's bad for subscriptions." Whatever the reason, one thing is clear - they wish to destroy the philosophy behind the design of EVE, that competition is not optional, and the niche of the MMO world where it reigns - the PvP-centric MMO.
You know, I would argue there's really nothing competitive about EVE. Not really. A character with 500 SP cannot compete, in any way, shape or form, with a character who has 50 million SP. It is like putting a 4 year old girl into a ring with Mike Tyson and hoping to see a good fight - not gonna happen. The same notion extends to all facets of EVE. A new player will not mine as fast. A new player cannot trade as much, as broadly or as efficiently. A new player can't manufacture as fast. Etc., etc. And when a large group of older characters comes after newer players, the problem is further exacerbated.
If EVE was indeed a competitive MMO, there should be no skill queue training, and everything would depend on player skill, not character skills. Nobody would call Starcraft a competitive game, or an ESport, if one player had access to a full tech tree and the other could only make marines. Yes that's precisely what is happening in EVE, relatively speaking.
How does it apply to EVE? 60% or more live in high sec. There's a reason they chose to do it. If a faction of players makes it their mission in life to destroy that, guess what happens to those 60%? The assumption of the gankers is, these people will HTFU and move to low sec, wormholes, 0.0, etc. The reality is, as soon as it becomes too difficult to do what the player wants to do in a game, he'll quit that game and move on to the next. The question is, what will gankers do when that happens? They gather around the fire and sing kumbayah? For how long? |
Rhivre
TarNec
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:31:00 -
[112] - Quote
The tutorial actually teaches you about following FC orders (ok, briefly, but still), about suiciding (you get at least 1 ship blown up doing a suicide run, and another where you have to fly in, take out one ship while waiting for re-inforcements, then die), it also discusses spider tanking, webbing, scrambling, and different aspects of pvp, then points you to the faction militia.
It is limited, as there is only so much pvp you can teach using NPCs as your "fleet", but, can we please get away from the several year old idea that tutorials only cover mining and pve concepts.
The level 1 mining missions also have big text on the bottom saying about how miners have to keep an eye out for suicide gankers, again, they can only illustrate this with rats, but there is a huge wall of text explaining that mining is not safe and that you can, and do get blown up.
But, yes, CCP never, ever, ever in any missions/tutorials/concepts cover anything about risk in high sec, or suicide ganking, or can flipping. They only mention pve and afk mining |
HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:37:00 -
[113] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:In his latest Ten Ton Hammer article, The Mittani writes about many players' entitlement to "opt out" of PvP. Some even believe that this game does allow you to "opt out" by living in hisec, where the game's tutorial taught them how to shoot an NPC and mine an asteroid. Many believe that suicide ganking is an exploit, that CONCORD exists to protect them from all harm, and that nonconsensual PvP does not have a place in hisec. Many seem to agree with this notion - "suicide ganks drive away new players," they say. Or "it's bad for subscriptions." Whatever the reason, one thing is clear - they wish to destroy the philosophy behind the design of EVE, that competition is not optional, and the niche of the MMO world where it reigns - the PvP-centric MMO. You know, I would argue there's really nothing competitive about EVE. Not really. A character with 500 SP cannot compete, in any way, shape or form, with a character who has 50 million SP. It is like putting a 4 year old girl into a ring with Mike Tyson and hoping to see a good fight - not gonna happen. The same notion extends to all facets of EVE. A new player will not mine as fast. A new player cannot trade as much, as broadly or as efficiently. A new player can't manufacture as fast. Etc., etc. And when a large group of older characters comes after newer players, the problem is further exacerbated. If EVE was indeed a competitive MMO, there should be no skill queue training, and everything would depend on player skill, not character skills. Nobody would call Starcraft a competitive game, or an ESport, if one player had access to a full tech tree and the other could only make marines. Yes that's precisely what is happening in EVE, relatively speaking. How does it apply to EVE? 60% or more live in high sec. There's a reason they chose to do it. If a faction of players makes it their mission in life to destroy that, guess what happens to those 60%? The assumption of the gankers is, these people will HTFU and move to low sec, wormholes, 0.0, etc. The reality is, as soon as it becomes too difficult to do what the player wants to do in a game, he'll quit that game and move on to the next. The question is, what will gankers do when that happens? They gather around the fire and sing kumbayah? For how long? except when that hero rifter newbie tackles your faction fitted capital and gets it nuked but thats obviously not competing is it
|
Tenchi Sal
Dust Bunnies 514
54
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:41:00 -
[114] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:[quote=Richard Desturned]
The question is, what will gankers do when that happens? They gather around the fire and sing kumbayah? For how long?
they will quit as well, its the natural order of things.
i seriously want CCP to remove concord all together so their subs fall so low, investors start bailing like rats off a burning ship. all these people who cry out for all out no consequences pvp, are probably all right off of WoW. they haven't the slightest clue what happens to a server's population when something like this occurs.
also, this whole notion where this guy states that players in high sec believe its pvp-free is completely unfounded. i am positive everyone knows pvp is everywhere in EVE and can happen at anytime. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
105
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:42:00 -
[115] - Quote
The Miner profession is in better shape than ever.
Now the AFK Miner, BOT Miner and Theme Parker Miner is having trouble. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Unit757
North Point
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:55:00 -
[116] - Quote
+1 good read.
EVE will be a better place once Goonswarm drives off the idiots. Do try and leave a handful though, I still enjoy the odd ****-fit jumping blindly into low. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
958
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 14:07:00 -
[117] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:The Miner profession is in better shape than ever.
Now the AFK Miner, BOT Miner and Theme Parker Miner is having trouble. Well the bots can start aligning as soon as you land on grid and are pretty good at getting their pods out, or so I hear. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Sir John Halsey
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 14:46:00 -
[118] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:pussnheels wrote:It is now on CCP to act , either they take action to avoid a large number of subcribers to leave or allow their own game to die a slow death with lower and lower subscriptions each quarter Subscribers have been leaving EVE for for a decade and yet it has been growing every single year. I wonder why.
Because people get bored playing other games. Or people grow, get a job, make money and they afford paying/playing EVE (like me) People want eye candy games even though some browser MMOs are very good. Some switch from F2P because those are *** money grabbers companies even though some games can be very very good.
I don't care about goons, mittani, ccp decisions ... i just wish EVE would have a better UI and get rid of those right click sub menus :)
|
HellSpeed
Estrale Frontiers Project Wildfire
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 15:24:00 -
[119] - Quote
The article is just one random guy's point of view. You've been dreaming about that starship of yours again, haven't you? |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1597
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 15:32:00 -
[120] - Quote
Yeah, this blog post of mine seems relevant:
http://stinkinguplocal.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/save-me-from-non-consentual-pvp/
Basically, Eve is all about competition. Almost every element of the game permits some level of player-versus-player behavior. Why should they get to opt out of combat, unless we can all opt out of whatever competitive play we want?
The underlying problem is that people don't understand, as Mittens points out, that it is entirely possible to avoid being ganked. I've said it over and over in recent conversations: the Covetor is 75-80% the yield of the hulk for less than 10% of the price. The Rokh is about 65% the yield and nigh invulnerable to gankers. It all comes back to the risk versus reward concept: to get the highest yeild in the game you have to take the risk of using an expensive and fragile ship. What the carebears are asking for is to remove that balance and allow them to achieve the reward without taking on the risk.
I think the new play experience is partly to blame. A new player gets introduced to mining, scanning, and missions, and given a pat on the back and a hearty "good luck!". They don't understand the different philosophies of PVE and PVP fittings. They don't understand aggression mechanics. They ARE honestly surprised when they find out their stuff can be destroyed in highsec, because Eve gives the impression that it's secure.
Bittervets, Mittens included, will asert that the new player just needs to "do their research". I feel this is an unrealistic expectation. I have absolutely no problem with someone picking up a game, saying "this looks cool", and playing it without spending hours reading about it and learning exactly what the environment is like. I think a much larger problem is that CCP's tutorials--at least the ones I saw when I started two years ago--actively misinform the player on how game mechanics work. it's ENTIRELY centered around PVE and leaves newcomers completely unequipped to deal with the reality of Eve. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
|
Twulf
The Konvergent League Sanctuary Pact
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 15:46:00 -
[121] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Serene Repose wrote:The first goal of a corporation is to make money, not create a good game. They are mutually exclusive. Presumably, a "good game" is what is needed to "make money" in the video game industry. So much for your argument!
You are wrong, To make money, you need to cater to the biggest market of players. Good game or not. Example the last 5 years of MMORPG games. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1549
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 15:53:00 -
[122] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Yeah, this blog post of mine seems relevant: http://stinkinguplocal.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/save-me-from-non-consentual-pvp/Basically, Eve is all about competition. Almost every element of the game permits some level of player-versus-player behavior. Why should they get to opt out of combat, unless we can all opt out of whatever competitive play we want? The underlying problem is that people don't understand, as Mittens points out, that it is entirely possible to avoid being ganked. I've said it over and over in recent conversations: the Covetor is 75-80% the yield of the hulk for less than 10% of the price. The Rokh is about 65% the yield and nigh invulnerable to gankers. It all comes back to the risk versus reward concept: to get the highest yeild in the game you have to take the risk of using an expensive and fragile ship. What the carebears are asking for is to remove that balance and allow them to achieve the reward without taking on the risk. I think the new play experience is partly to blame. A new player gets introduced to mining, scanning, and missions, and given a pat on the back and a hearty "good luck!". They don't understand the different philosophies of PVE and PVP fittings. They don't understand aggression mechanics. They ARE honestly surprised when they find out their stuff can be destroyed in highsec, because Eve gives the impression that it's secure. Bittervets, Mittens included, will asert that the new player just needs to "do their research". I feel this is an unrealistic expectation. I have absolutely no problem with someone picking up a game, saying "this looks cool", and playing it without spending hours reading about it and learning exactly what the environment is like. I think a much larger problem is that CCP's tutorials--at least the ones I saw when I started two years ago--actively misinform the player on how game mechanics work. it's ENTIRELY centered around PVE and leaves newcomers completely unequipped to deal with the reality of Eve.
You forget the advertisement showing a wallet with ISK increasing over a montage of activities. This is why the Covetor is not used as much. I am not sure what game some people are playing but for them it's all about racking ISK and more ISK and so much as a 1 percent loss to yield, perhaps a change to mechanics or an implant, they scream bloody murder. We saw the same thing with the incursion blitzers. Again, what game are they playing? Wormholes were becoming deserted when VG blitzing became the ISK Fountain of the Month. Taking down the Sansha motherships brought out such sense-of-entitlement-driven hatred it was unreal.
They don't really have a play style. CCP could come up with a new activity or mission next month that yields more ISK than anything else, and the same crowd would flock to it, and if so much as one ISK is taken down for some reason, they would scream again.
The ISK-snatching mentality, that the number in the wallet is the end all be all, seems dysfunctional. Financial motivation? Maybe they are RMTers. But there cannot be that many.
Again, I don't know what game they are playing. I can say the same for people who would sit on a gate all day for a killmail, and then run from a 5 on one (their 5 versus one) out of fear that they might get popped and not go one up in their stats. I have seen the same kinds of people playing other MMOs.
|
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
989
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 15:56:00 -
[123] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Suicide ganking is easy, because it is EASY. It's a lot harder when the targets aren't botserrr AFK miners.
lol no it is not. The very first Hulk I suicide ganked was a real person at the keyboard chatting in local. He was actively moving around the belt and everything. I used an alt to get a warp in on him with my Brutix. I waited till he was pointed in a direction that there was no celestial and whooosh..... warped in at optimal and blam. Dead Hulk.
It was easy, make no mistake about it.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Nikodiemus
Jokulhlaup
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 15:56:00 -
[124] - Quote
People still read that angry drunk's articles? |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
989
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 16:00:00 -
[125] - Quote
Nikodiemus wrote:People still read that angry drunk's articles?
I honestly read the first few after the BoB thing. Then they just started to be pointless. He would ramble on about nothing.
Maybe one day someone can put together a list of the good ones.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Hauling Hal
The Black Ops
62
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 16:08:00 -
[126] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Because Sony has an awesome reputation at running MMOs and not losing thousands of customers or killing entire products because of stupid decisions at the executive level? |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
170
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 16:14:00 -
[127] - Quote
Hauling Hal wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Because Sony has an awesome reputation at running MMOs and not losing thousands of customers or killing entire products because of stupid decisions at the executive level?
Sony is now deeply entwined with CCP because of the Dust collaboration. You think that Sony may just not be a tad sensitive to going down that same path AGAIN?
There is no doubt that Sony is watching sub rates in Eve very closely, because of the impact this will have on Dust, and vice versa. If the Eve sub rates start falling, then yeah, Sony will indeed have some chats with CCP.
|
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 16:53:00 -
[128] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I don't' recall any movements towards making the game safe, especially to such level that goons must somehow fight back against it to save the game.
There are always suggestions in the forums about it, for an against, but this is business as usual. What specifically happened that such action is needed to save the game from a kind of "Carebearism"?
I don't get it. The written word is really not that complicated, this is evidenced by the fact that people learn to read and write it on a daily basis; all over the world.
It is truelly amazing that something can be written out as simple as possible, to such an extent that you don't even need to attempt to try and decipher the point of what you read, and some people still don't understand it.
It's not just Herzog here, I believe the two post prior to his also utterly failed to comprehend what they read.
The article did not state that there was a movement in EVE to make the game safe. It pointed out a trend in games in general to move to a more handholding and safer enviroment; which has lead to people in EVE seemingly thinking that EVE is the same. That there is a group within EVE that thinks that there is supposed to be a place where you are safe, and that any interaction with another player that they don't want is "forcing" them to play the game in a way they don't want.
That this group of people are so far removed from the reality of the game they play, that when they do have an interaction they don't want they imply that the person "exploited" a loophole to "force" a particular gameplay on them. That these people have fallen into the belief that there is an entire section of the game world designed for them to only PvE and that they never have to do any PvP unless i'ts consentual.
The article clearly points out that contrary to what this group thinks, the rules are not set up that way.
Dear Herzog, Look up. The point shot over your head.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
964
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 16:57:00 -
[129] - Quote
Hauling Hal wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Because Sony has an awesome reputation at running MMOs and not losing thousands of customers or killing entire products because of stupid decisions at the executive level? Heh heh heh.
EVE Online: Sony Edition :( Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1549
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 17:01:00 -
[130] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I don't' recall any movements towards making the game safe, especially to such level that goons must somehow fight back against it to save the game.
There are always suggestions in the forums about it, for an against, but this is business as usual. What specifically happened that such action is needed to save the game from a kind of "Carebearism"?
I don't get it. The written word is really not that complicated, this is evidenced by the fact that people learn to read and write it on a daily basis; all over the world. It is truelly amazing that something can be written out as simple as possible, to such an extent that you don't even need to attempt to try and decipher the point of what you read, and some people still don't understand it. It's not just Herzog here, I believe the two post prior to his also utterly failed to comprehend what they read. The article did not state that there was a movement in EVE to make the game safe. It pointed out a trend in games in general to move to a more handholding and safer enviroment; which has lead to people in EVE seemingly thinking that EVE is the same. That there is a group within EVE that thinks that there is supposed to be a place where you are safe, and that any interaction with another player that they don't want is "forcing" them to play the game in a way they don't want. That this group of people are so far removed from the reality of the game they play, that when they do have an interaction they don't want they imply that the person "exploited" a loophole to "force" a particular gameplay on them. That these people have fallen into the belief that there is an entire section of the game world designed for them to only PvE and that they never have to do any PvP unless i'ts consentual. The article clearly points out that contrary to what this group thinks, the rules are not set up that way. Dear Herzog, Look up. The point shot over your head.
And what is the reason for the alliance appointing itself as the protector of being unsafe in the game with the same pretentious rhetoric as German Fascists of the 1930s did towards protecting "genetic purity"?
What I see from MItt an the goon parrots is almost in the same template as that was used by Goebbels and his crew (which actually comes from late 19th century American progressives but I digress...).
Thanks for bothering to make a long post about my points though. But I don't feel it was necessary. There have always been people who lose and cry "exploit!" or "hax!" and always people who see complaining as just as much a tactic or fittable module they would use in game. This is why the bot reporting is so boinked, because it would be used as a meta-weapon. Even the hue and cry over your bosses drunken rant had a lot of meta-weapon air to it. There is nothing new here. |
|
Johnny Rook
Requiem of the Sinner
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 17:04:00 -
[131] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Hauling Hal wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Because Sony has an awesome reputation at running MMOs and not losing thousands of customers or killing entire products because of stupid decisions at the executive level? Sony is now deeply entwined with CCP because of the Dust collaboration. You think that Sony may just not be a tad sensitive to going down that same path AGAIN? There is no doubt that Sony is watching sub rates in Eve very closely, because of the impact this will have on Dust, and vice versa. If the Eve sub rates start falling, then yeah, Sony will indeed have some chats with CCP.
how does eve losing subs of high sec miners affect a game that's to do with the combat side of things? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
547
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 17:13:00 -
[132] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Serene Repose wrote:The first goal of a corporation is to make money, not create a good game. They are mutually exclusive. Presumably, a "good game" is what is needed to "make money" in the video game industry. So much for your argument! You are wrong, To make money, you need to cater to the biggest market of players. Good game or not. Example the last 5 years of MMORPG games.
So you are honestly suggesting that CCP should go down this route? Why? eh |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
965
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 17:15:00 -
[133] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Twulf wrote:You are wrong, To make money, you need to cater to the biggest market of players. Good game or not. Example the last 5 years of MMORPG games. So you are honestly suggesting that CCP should go down this route? Why? Because they like those MMORPG games, and thus EVE should be just like them :)
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1006
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 17:15:00 -
[134] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:The Miner profession is in better shape than ever.
Now the AFK Miner, BOT Miner and Theme Parker Miner is having trouble.
No, they moved to null, in blued renter alliances. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1006
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 17:20:00 -
[135] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: The ISK-snatching mentality, that the number in the wallet is the end all be all, seems dysfunctional. Financial motivation? Maybe they are RMTers. But there cannot be that many.
Modern sub-culture teaches money is all and the end of all. They are the byproduct of a mentality that is driving the world into garbage.
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Again, I don't know what game they are playing. I can say the same for people who would sit on a gate all day for a killmail, and then run from a 5 on one (their 5 versus one) out of fear that they might get popped and not go one up in their stats. I have seen the same kinds of people playing other MMOs.
And those others are the deficient sons of Sun Tzu. Another bastage that should never have born.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
547
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 17:22:00 -
[136] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Again, I don't know what game they are playing. I can say the same for people who would sit on a gate all day for a killmail, and then run from a 5 on one (their 5 versus one) out of fear that they might get popped and not go one up in their stats. I have seen the same kinds of people playing other MMOs.
Hi nobody in this game actually cares about killboard stats, hth eh |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:15:00 -
[137] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
And what is the reason for the alliance appointing itself as the protector of being unsafe in the game with the same pretentious rhetoric as German Fascists of the 1930s did towards protecting "genetic purity"?
What I see from MItt an the goon parrots is almost in the same template as that was used by Goebbels and his crew (which actually comes from late 19th century American progressives but I digress...).
Thanks for bothering to make a long post about my points though. But I don't feel it was necessary. There have always been people who lose and cry "exploit!" or "hax!" and always people who see complaining as just as much a tactic or fittable module they would use in game. This is why the bot reporting is so boinked, because it would be used as a meta-weapon. Even the hue and cry over your bosses drunken rant had a lot of meta-weapon air to it. There is nothing new here.
I do understand your point about the evolution of MMOs towards more handholding and have seen it myself. But it can also be argued that the new scanning mechanics were handholding for ninja salvagers and ganking in deadspace pockets. It gets the credit for lowering the population of lowsec, as an example. There are changes that made things easier for the seedier side of the game, as is there were changes making it easier for carebears. Tier 3 battle cruisers are another example.
I am not missing the point, I don't agree with yours. The game is evolving. I see things getting better for all kinds of play styles. Nobody is making highsec a no PVP zone. Yes there will be people who want it, but there are also people who want high sec completely removed too. Neither has it their way. So I don't understand the drama.
Herzog wrote, "I don't' recall any movements towards making the game safe, especially to such level that goons must somehow fight back against it to save the game."
The article said no such thing, it didn't even imply any such thing.
That was my point, that you seemingly missed the point of what was written in the article, and somehow took from it something that was neither said nor implied.
You're over analyzing what was written.
There is a segment of people that think that hi-sec means concentual pvp, and when someone takes an aggressive action towards them that they're being "forced" into something they shouldn't have to do, and go so far as to imply that that person somehow "exploited" to do so.
GD forums have all the evidence that this is indeed true. You only need to look at the numerous threads of people demanding CCP do something, for people to unsubscribe until CCP do something, or that they're quitting becuase CCP does nothing. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
966
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:36:00 -
[138] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:You're over analyzing what was written. But the analysis agrees with his view of what is happening, and what (CCP) needs to do about it Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Aramatheia
European Nuthouse
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:38:00 -
[139] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Evelyn Meiyi wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Serene Repose wrote:The first goal of a corporation is to make money, not create a good game. They are mutually exclusive. Presumably, a "good game" is what is needed to "make money" in the video game industry. So much for your argument! Actually, ("so much for your argument", hilarious) good games are too difficult for the general public and never make the kind of money corporations like to see. They want something for the teeming, mindless masses...you know, like Mitt said in the "article." "So much for your argument..." Whatta hoot! Actually. this is more true than you realize, especially since the mid-1990s. Once Big Business started to realize that computer games are a profitable enterprise, more and more companies got into the field (including a good many that never should have). Since then, games have slowly gone from being something that a company takes pride in making (anyone remember King's Quest, or Space Quest?), to being just a line on the balance sheet of some mindless corporate drone that has no idea what the industry is all about. With some amazing exceptions (EVE Online, World of Warcraft, and Bioshock come immediately to mind), it stopped being about making a 'good game' and more about 'maintaining a profit margin', even at the expense of quality. Releases were rushed, products left half-finished, and companies struggled against schedules that were impossible to meet if they wanted to launch a product of any quality. The industry is coming back, now, slowly -- but it's not done healing yet. I noticed you add World of Warcraft as an exception, but it really isn't. Blizzard cares more about lost profit than any other company.
*Kinda off topic reply-posting*
WoW wasnt always so mindbumblingly terrible. It has its non pvp worlds but it also has the pvp ones where you can pvp ppl anywhere even thier capital cities ( i have played on both types).. anyway thats not my points. the BC expansion was great it has stuff you had to spend time and effort for. but blizzard lost the plot with wotlk, and cata and the game went to crap. Still has the pvp/no pvp worlds but its just terrible now. But once upon a time it was fun and a decent game. I think activision is to blame for that.
Lets also see what happens with halo 4.. first couple halo's were GREAT before microsoft muscled in. ODST and Reach while fun first time on campaign did become questionable, Reach and Halo 3 had too much buyable DLC, that should never exist in a fps, ever. Hope that the silly clothes in the aurum shop is all we ever see there. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
890
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:39:00 -
[140] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Nikodiemus wrote:People still read that angry drunk's articles? I honestly read the first few after the BoB thing. Then they just started to be pointless. He would ramble on about nothing. Maybe one day someone can put together a list of the good ones.
Way ahead of you, I pruned out all the ****** ones already for you: Ten Ton Hammer (Partial Archive)
Go ahead and read all the linked ones, they're the only ones worth reading. |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
890
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:40:00 -
[141] - Quote
Nikodiemus wrote:People still read that angry drunk's articles?
Not only that, they pay him to write them. Doesn't that just **** you off, cutiepie? :D |
Twulf
The Konvergent League Sanctuary Pact
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:41:00 -
[142] - Quote
Hauling Hal wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Because Sony has an awesome reputation at running MMOs and not losing thousands of customers or killing entire products because of stupid decisions at the executive level?
If you are talking about SWG then you should go read up on facts before you post again. Sony had to change the game because Locus Arts who owns Star Wars rights wanted to bring in WoW like numbers and forced Sony to make the changes and the game died. Those are the facts but idiots like you just listened to what the masses said and took it for fact like normal instead of doing a little amount of research on your own.
Its not like we live in the information age or anything. Oh wait. lazy uninformed idiots like you are ruining this world with your nonsense. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
890
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:44:00 -
[143] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Hauling Hal wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Because Sony has an awesome reputation at running MMOs and not losing thousands of customers or killing entire products because of stupid decisions at the executive level? If you are talking about SWG then you should go read up on facts before you post again. Sony had to change the game because Locus Arts who owns Star Wars rights wanted to bring in WoW like numbers and forced Sony to make the changes and the game died. Those are the facts but idiots like you just listened to what the masses said and took it for fact like normal instead of doing a little amount of research on your own. Its not like we live in the information age or anything. Oh wait. lazy uninformed idiots like you are ruining this world with your nonsense.
Uh. The SWG New Game Enhancement was November 2005, WOW was launched November 2004. I don't think WOW hit the "Holycrap" level of success until after November 2005, and even if they had, the NGE had to have taken quite a long time (at least half a year, probably more), meaning it had to be in planning and production long before WOW shook everything up.
|
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
283
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:47:00 -
[144] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: Some even believe that this game does allow you to "opt out" by living in hisec, Many believe that suicide ganking is an exploit, that CONCORD exists to protect them from all harm, and that nonconsensual PvP does not have a place in hisec.
I love this stuff.
Show me
Who believe's that this game does allow you to "opt out" by living in hisec" Got a quote from somone ? Who believe's that CONCORD exists to protect them from all harm ? Got a quote from somone ? Who believe's that suicide ganking is an exploit. Got a quote from somone ? Who believe's that that nonconsensual PvP does not have a place in hisec. Got a quote from somone ?
Just curious who this person is cause man they really do a good job of irritating the crap out of you all
CCP set to change build Requirements for Exhumers |
Degren
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1089
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:47:00 -
[145] - Quote
I enjoy Mittani's writing style, especially the narrative voice he uses. /swoon You don't know |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1550
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:52:00 -
[146] - Quote
Indeed I don't deny what was written but my point is that there are always people who think that some things should be a certain way, and they will use the forums to try to get that way, but there is nothing new about that. Yes, there are high sec carebears who want PVP to be consensual but there are also bored lowsec gate campers who come to the forums demanding changes that would enhance the way they want to play.
And the best part is, the majority of the player base do not use the forums. I played WoW from 2005 to 2007 and never touched the forums. The forums are not the world, but people who use them tend to think, after much time and investment, that it is.
Would there be a special concern because CCP is known to pay some attention to the forums? Possibly. But they can get just as much the right idea as the wrong idea if they paid too much attention to the forums. Sometimes I think that people have the right idea, but push it the wrong way. Goons, I notice, tend to put up talk about griefing when in fact the end result is valid to the goals of the game. This is the opposite of greifing and then hiding behind the usual canon of excuses. I can see what destruction of high sec mining operations will result in and as far as the game goes, it's legitimate goals veiled by wanting to grief people.
While it works, and I suspect that CCP does not take it the wrong way, being backstage, it will raise the ire of forum warriors. When the Skunk guys were moving to shut down incursions, something I supported and joined in on, there was a lot of "grief the bears" talk, which I did not agree with not because I cared for twink-ship incursion grinders whose sense of entitlement only made me really want to whizz in their Cheerios, but because to an observer, it was covering the original point of interrupting incursions and why. What ends up happening is that those with the sense of entitlement go off getting to feel like victims and further vindicate their ignorance, and they never really learn the lesson.
I think it's only a small minority of people who outright want to say that highsec should be totally safe. and just as many who say get rid of concord or move all L4s to lowsec. Overall the debate never remains civil enough to be productive. But no matter what happens, nobody is going to actually learn anything, or change their ways.
In the end it's fear of weaponized democracy. I think there is a consensus that if 1000 people say "make highsec safe" and only 999 say "Do not", then CCP will trot to the source code and make highsec totally safe. I don't think it's that simple, and thankfully CCP has enough level headedness not to put too much stock into what we, the basement dwelling neckbeards, have to say. Complaints on a forum do not make up for real metrics. Are noobs getting flustered and quitting? Maybe so, but I see that the goons already work on that by giving them guidance and ships. Your organization is already the change that you want to push and anybody who sees that, even if they hate goons (which is a rule that we must all hate goons) get forced to admit that the treatment of noobs by goons is probably better than most corporations.
Still why the drama? |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 18:54:00 -
[147] - Quote
Quote:..."even the most drooling incompetent"...
Spoken by the disgraced lawyer himself. Good on ya, Mittens. |
Gabriel Kaile
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:01:00 -
[148] - Quote
Katja Faith wrote:Quote:..."even the most drooling incompetent"... Spoken by the disgraced lawyer himself. Good on ya, Mittens.
I'm a doctor and I have to say that your burns are the worst. |
baltec1
1253
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:03:00 -
[149] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Sony have nothing to do with EVE online so why would they? |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
891
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:04:00 -
[150] - Quote
Katja Faith wrote:Quote:..."even the most drooling incompetent"... Spoken by the disgraced lawyer himself. Good on ya, Mittens.
Retired, actually, in his mid 20s? Maybe 30s.
Or are you talking about him mocking the faux suicidal botter that tried to emotionally blackmail him, the so called "The Wis"? Because I, and a lot of others, personally consider that to be one of his finest moments. Mittani doesn't, but hey, he can't help but be the wind beneath our wings. |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
891
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:04:00 -
[151] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Sony have nothing to do with EVE online so why would they?
I guess the new "I'mma gonna call mommy CCP on you" is "Just wait till Daddy Sony hears about this, he's gonna beat mommy CCP until she listens." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
966
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:05:00 -
[152] - Quote
Xython wrote:Nikodiemus wrote:People still read that angry drunk's articles? Not only that, they pay him to write them. Doesn't that just **** you off, cutiepie? :D It's a good read. Much better read than the whine threads here. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
554
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:26:00 -
[153] - Quote
Katja Faith wrote:Quote:..."even the most drooling incompetent"... Spoken by the disgraced lawyer himself. Good on ya, Mittens.
Disgraced lawyer? eh |
Malice Redeemer
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:36:00 -
[154] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Woah, this game seriously may be going places when Mittani himself says "Play my way or go away".
This is what I was thinking, the goons are pulling one out of the carebear playbook, and oh its so funny how butthurt the mittens sounds in that article, sounds like if eve isn't the game for him, he should quit ;P |
FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel
138
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:39:00 -
[155] - Quote
A lot of people seem to think this is a discussion about pvp methodologies (suicide ganking, or blobbing, or whatever) or about the sandbox philosophy (Sandbox != multiplayer sandbox. look at sig link.) but it is not. It is about the staggering number of individuals currently floating around in space who believe that they are completely and totally 100% guaranteed safe. When they die and that facade is shattered, they then come and complain very vocally on the forums about it, trying to get it changed. That's where the entitlement comes in.
Really, though, it's because they believed themselves to be 100% safe in the first place, then had their belief destroyed that causes the negative reaction. Beliefs are very important to people, and to their identities (yes, even beliefs about an internet spaceship game) and when they are challenged, or in this case utterly destroyed, the person gets angry because he feels immensely threatened.
Perhaps it's a problem with the way people are learning the game? Shift click to open new window. How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176 "I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:40:00 -
[156] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Woah, this game seriously may be going places when Mittani himself says "Play my way or go away". This is what I was thinking, the goons are pulling one out of the carebear playbook, and oh its so funny how butthurt the mittens sounds in that article, sounds like if eve isn't the game for him, he should quit ;P
Now that's impressive!
You guys were actually able to faceroll your keyboards and still form words, and sentence structure.
You guys should go on tour. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
555
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:40:00 -
[157] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:Perhaps it's a problem with the way people are learning the game?
The game's tutorial has you shoot an NPC and mine a rock. eh |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:42:00 -
[158] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:A lot of people seem to think this is a discussion about pvp methodologies (suicide ganking, or blobbing, or whatever) or about the sandbox philosophy (Sandbox != multiplayer sandbox. look at sig link.) but it is not. It is about the staggering number of individuals currently floating around in space who believe that they are completely and totally 100% guaranteed safe. When they die and that facade is shattered, they then come and complain very vocally on the forums about it, trying to get it changed. That's where the entitlement comes in.
Really, though, it's because they believed themselves to be 100% safe in the first place, then had their belief destroyed that causes the negative reaction. Beliefs are very important to people, and to their identities (yes, even beliefs about an internet spaceship game) and when they are challenged, or in this case utterly destroyed, the person gets angry because he feels immensely threatened.
Perhaps it's a problem with the way people are learning the game?
As correct as you are, all of your words are completely lost on the vast magority of the people here.
I commend you, and pity you at you at the same time. |
baltec1
1254
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:43:00 -
[159] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:FeralShadow wrote:Perhaps it's a problem with the way people are learning the game? The game's tutorial has you shoot an NPC and mine a rock.
I hear it also pods you these days or something. |
Malice Redeemer
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:46:00 -
[160] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Woah, this game seriously may be going places when Mittani himself says "Play my way or go away". This is what I was thinking, the goons are pulling one out of the carebear playbook, and oh its so funny how butthurt the mittens sounds in that article, sounds like if eve isn't the game for him, he should quit ;P Now that's impressive! You guys were actually able to faceroll your keyboards and still form words, and sentence structure. You guys should go on tour.
I do not understand your post, I think you trying to pick on me, but its such an inept attempt I'm not 100% sure.
Want to try again? |
|
Malice Redeemer
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 19:49:00 -
[161] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:FeralShadow wrote:Perhaps it's a problem with the way people are learning the game? The game's tutorial has you shoot an NPC and mine a rock. I hear it also pods you these days or something.
It kills your ship 2-3 times to try and teach you not to care and fly what you can lose, but as the gankers say, the bears just ignore the warnings, and still think this game is wow. Only I don't think its a problem, eve is eve. There will always be bears, gankers, and everyone in-between. |
Ditra Vorthran
State War Academy Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:00:00 -
[162] - Quote
First, there's O-TECH, creating a self sustaining stable group of the most powerful alliances in the game. This gives the Null Sec alliances the stability they need to partake in 'good fights' without the necessity of going through Sov/POS grinds. All the while they're making boatloads of ISK. If someone rises up to challenge any of these alliances, the rest of them will set their differences aside and grind it into the dust.
With Null Sec stabilized, Mittani's attention turns to High Sec. Burn Jita was a challenge to CCP, a test to see if they would step in. They didn't, and now Mittani has moved forward with perma-Hulkageddon, and eventually will Burn [insert market hubs here].
What's next?
There will be many people who will quit, others who will move to incursions/missions, a small percentage who will change to PvP, and finally, those who will give in and suck the **** of join a large alliance for the ability to work in 0.0.
Eventually, once Hulkageddon has flatlined, Mittani will declare war on missioners. Can't have those pesky highsecers making risk free money, now can we? They've been playing Eve for months/years, they can mission in Low Sec like they're suppose to.
After that, it'll be those Incusioners who are destroying Eve due to the massive amount of isk they bring into the game and the inflation it causees! How dare they! There are Incursions in Low and Null Sec. If it's good enough for Goonswarm, it's good enough for everyone.
Eventually, Eve will fall below the critical mass needed to sustain itself.
He has done an excellent job deflecting action by CCP them to stop him. 'Goonswarm supports emergent gameplay,' is code for, 'I'm daring you to come after me so I can hang you with your own hipocracy and turn myself into a martyr.'
Eve isn't dying. It is being murdered.
Love him or hate him, he knows how to shake things up. Let's hope he doesn't shake things to pieces. |
Khadann
First Legion
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:02:00 -
[163] - Quote
" PVP is the backbone of eve, it's core, the only feature worth and should be the only reason why players play eve." BLA BLA...
Stop calling it sandbox then.
CCP would not have implemented industry or PVE features if the game was made only for PVP.
I believe EVE is a sandbox mmo before being a PVP mmo, what do you think?
|
Kahetha
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:16:00 -
[164] - Quote
ohh, oh yes, ohh how does it feel to be crying goonpats? ahh cry, yes ye baddi please, cry more cry, cry about how hard it is to pvp in 0.0, cry about how you are too good to bother with the hassles of fleet warfare, cry about how you have to harass other people to get it hard, please cry, it amuses me to my ******* core XD |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
892
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:18:00 -
[165] - Quote
Kahetha wrote:ohh, oh yes, ohh how does it feel to be crying goonpats? ahh cry, yes ye baddi please, cry more cry, cry about how hard it is to pvp in 0.0, cry about how you are too good to bother with the hassles of fleet warfare, cry about how you have to harass other people to get it hard, please cry, it amuses me to my ******* core XD
We live to serve, but little carebear, it's actually the other people who are crying, not us. :) |
Embrace My Hate
Barr Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
95
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:18:00 -
[166] - Quote
I could not have expressed the current state of affairs better myself.
<3 |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:20:00 -
[167] - Quote
Kahetha wrote:ohh, oh yes, ohh how does it feel to be crying goonpats? ahh cry, yes ye baddi please, cry more cry, cry about how hard it is to pvp in 0.0, cry about how you are too good to bother with the hassles of fleet warfare, cry about how you have to harass other people to get it hard, please cry, it amuses me to my ******* core XD
Meth is a hell of a drug. You should get help. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
559
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:20:00 -
[168] - Quote
Kahetha wrote:ohh, oh yes, ohh how does it feel to be crying goonpats? ahh cry, yes ye baddi please, cry more cry, cry about how hard it is to pvp in 0.0, cry about how you are too good to bother with the hassles of fleet warfare, cry about how you have to harass other people to get it hard, please cry, it amuses me to my ******* core XD
i love posts like this
this is why we kill you, highsec eh |
Luigi Thirty
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:28:00 -
[169] - Quote
Kahetha wrote:ohh, oh yes, ohh how does it feel to be crying goonpats? ahh cry, yes ye baddi please, cry more cry, cry about how hard it is to pvp in 0.0, cry about how you are too good to bother with the hassles of fleet warfare, cry about how you have to harass other people to get it hard, please cry, it amuses me to my ******* core XD
what |
FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel
138
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:29:00 -
[170] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:FeralShadow wrote:A lot of people seem to think this is a discussion about pvp methodologies (suicide ganking, or blobbing, or whatever) or about the sandbox philosophy (Sandbox != multiplayer sandbox. look at sig link.) but it is not. It is about the staggering number of individuals currently floating around in space who believe that they are completely and totally 100% guaranteed safe. When they die and that facade is shattered, they then come and complain very vocally on the forums about it, trying to get it changed. That's where the entitlement comes in.
Really, though, it's because they believed themselves to be 100% safe in the first place, then had their belief destroyed that causes the negative reaction. Beliefs are very important to people, and to their identities (yes, even beliefs about an internet spaceship game) and when they are challenged, or in this case utterly destroyed, the person gets angry because he feels immensely threatened.
Perhaps it's a problem with the way people are learning the game? As correct as you are, all of your words are completely lost on the vast magority of the people here. I commend you, and pity you at you at the same time.
As long as there is at least one person that looks at the issue objectively and rationally like yourself, my words aren't wasted. Shift click to open new window. How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176 "I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7510
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:31:00 -
[171] - Quote
Khadann wrote:" PVP is the backbone of eve, it's core, the only feature worth and should be the only reason why players play eve." BLA BLA...
Stop calling it sandbox then. No. It's a sandbox because PvP is the backbone and core of EVE.
Quote:I believe EVE is a sandbox mmo before being a PVP mmo, what do you think? If it's the former, it pretty much forcibly has to be the otherGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
Wu Jiaqiu
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:33:00 -
[172] - Quote
Some carebear posts in this thread make me wish I wasn't -10 so I can find them and **** em. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
113
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:49:00 -
[173] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: Some even believe that this game does allow you to "opt out" by living in hisec, Many believe that suicide ganking is an exploit, that CONCORD exists to protect them from all harm, and that nonconsensual PvP does not have a place in hisec.
I love this stuff. Show me Who believe's that this game does allow you to "opt out" by living in hisec" Got a quote from somone ? Who believe's that CONCORD exists to protect them from all harm ? Got a quote from somone ? Who believe's that suicide ganking is an exploit. Got a quote from somone ? Who believe's that that nonconsensual PvP does not have a place in hisec. Got a quote from somone ? Just curious who this person is cause man they really do a good job of irritating the crap out of you all you do:
Simetraz wrote:OP how does any of your comments fix a freighter from getting ganked. Or the industrial ship that gets ganked. Or the cruiser that got ganked .
You said you had the fix for ganking but you haven't addressed these very important issues.
as you think ganking needs to be "fixed" to prevent ships from being ganked you clearly are precisely the sort of scum referenced there |
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 20:55:00 -
[174] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khadann wrote:" PVP is the backbone of eve, it's core, the only feature worth and should be the only reason why players play eve." BLA BLA...
Stop calling it sandbox then. No. It's a sandbox because PvP is the backbone and core of EVE.
Both wrong, "sandbox" does not necessitate any particular ruleset. It just means there is a ruleset without any defined objectives. Doesn't imply limited resources or conflict, doesn't even have to be multiplayer.
EVE is a very specific "sandbox". |
Sir John Halsey
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 21:10:00 -
[175] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Again, I don't know what game they are playing. I can say the same for people who would sit on a gate all day for a killmail, and then run from a 5 on one (their 5 versus one) out of fear that they might get popped and not go one up in their stats. I have seen the same kinds of people playing other MMOs. Hi nobody in this game actually cares about killboard stats, hth
Then why so many killmail sites and people bragging with the ships they kill? You can say a lot of players don't care about stats bit not nobody cares ... not with some may sites and requests to have those nice features in game :) |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
517
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 21:23:00 -
[176] - Quote
Sir John Halsey wrote:Then why so many killmail sites and people bragging with the ships they kill? You can say a lot of players don't care about stats bit not nobody cares ... not with some may sites and requests to have those nice features in game :)
because talking about eve is better than playing it
|
Zelda Wei
New Horizon Trade Exchange
141
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 21:38:00 -
[177] - Quote
Lexmana wrote: Wow. If you can't beat him in-game you are hoping that CCP will permaban him? Is this the kind of game you want to play?
Don't like being meta-gamed eh, I can taste the bitter tears of irony when Mittens gets hoisted by his own petard.
|
Lustralis
Tiny Holdings
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 21:44:00 -
[178] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: CCP has allowed this gameplay for the entirety of EVE's existence - why would it suddenly become a problem now?
Not quite. You obviously weren't around before CONCORD existed, when Space Invaders would camp high sec gates (Amarr/Yulai, when Yulai was the Jita of Eve) killing everyone who passed through. CCP clearly think there's a line when it comes to this kind of grief play. The question is not whether GS will eventually cross it, but when.
I suggest it will happen when the bottom line starts to become affected. |
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 22:16:00 -
[179] - Quote
Lustralis wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: CCP has allowed this gameplay for the entirety of EVE's existence - why would it suddenly become a problem now?
Not quite. You obviously weren't around before CONCORD existed, when Space Invaders would camp high sec gates (Amarr/Yulai, when Yulai was the Jita of Eve) killing everyone who passed through. CCP clearly think there's a line when it comes to this kind of grief play. The question is not whether GS will eventually cross it, but when. I suggest it will happen when the bottom line starts to become affected.
There is precedent.
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
580
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 22:59:00 -
[180] - Quote
Zelda Wei wrote:Don't like being meta-gamed eh, I can taste the bitter tears of irony when Mittens gets hoisted by his own petard.
lol let's act like top-notch ~metagamers~ and whine about losing our hulks eh |
|
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 23:06:00 -
[181] - Quote
Khadann wrote:" PVP is the backbone of eve, it's core, the only feature worth and should be the only reason why players play eve." BLA BLA...
Stop calling it sandbox then.
CCP would not have implemented industry or PVE features if the game was made only for PVP.
I believe EVE is a sandbox mmo before being a PVP mmo, what do you think?
No matter what you do in EVE, you're participating in PvP. |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 23:21:00 -
[182] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Khadann wrote:" PVP is the backbone of eve, it's core, the only feature worth and should be the only reason why players play eve." BLA BLA...
Stop calling it sandbox then.
CCP would not have implemented industry or PVE features if the game was made only for PVP.
I believe EVE is a sandbox mmo before being a PVP mmo, what do you think?
No matter what you do in EVE, you're participating in PvP.
Only if you define PVP so broadly that it doesn't mean anything any more. This is the kind of crap logic that makes the internet stink. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
584
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 23:23:00 -
[183] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:Only if you define PVP so broadly that it doesn't mean anything any more. This is the kind of crap logic that makes the internet stink.
okay how do you define PvP from the perspective of your hulk eh |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
288
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 23:24:00 -
[184] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Simetraz wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: BLAH BLAH
BLAH BLAH you do: Simetraz wrote:OP how does any of your comments fix a freighter from getting ganked. Or the industrial ship that gets ganked. Or the cruiser that got ganked .
You said you had the fix for ganking but you haven't addressed these very important issues. as you think ganking needs to be "fixed" to prevent ships from being ganked you clearly are precisely the sort of scum referenced there
Yes we have a winner of utter fail here, I will remember to put in the word sarcasm next time just so you don't get confused
CCP set to change build Requirements for Exhumers |
Arabella Khurelem
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 23:24:00 -
[185] - Quote
The better question is what do you define as non-pvp in Eve? |
Arabella Khurelem
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 23:25:00 -
[186] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Yes we have a winner of utter fail here, I will remember to put in the word sarcasm next time just so you don't get confused
Hey guys, I was only trolling. |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
289
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 23:31:00 -
[187] - Quote
Arabella Khurelem wrote:Simetraz wrote:Yes we have a winner of utter fail here, I will remember to put in the word sarcasm next time just so you don't get confused Hey guys, I was only trolling.
Arabella how did you get into to this ? Bad enough EvilweaselSA is taking comments out of context from a whole different thread. And didn't have the decency to link the thread. Or are you EvilweaselSA ? CCP set to change build Requirements for Exhumers |
Alia Gon'die
Aliastra Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:18:00 -
[188] - Quote
I like how people are going on like Mittani hasn't been writing for TTH for the last few years.
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/64805 Updated Sat, Mar 07, 2009
This was published a month after I started playing. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2245
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:24:00 -
[189] - Quote
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/231736/
Reading that article was like reading the ravings of a sanctimonious lunatic suffering from a god complex with delusions of grandeur.
The hypocritical prejudiced statements, multiple fallacy's and blatant lies presented in that article hardly pales in comparison to the amount of biased posturing and distortion of reality presented in this thread by it's overzealous worshipers.
These fanatical Jihad players screaming 'Holy War' keep trying to validate the exploitation of unbalanced game mechanics as an intentional viable aspect of PvP. The constant referencing of generalized examples and debatable specifics is simply an attempt to justify their own actions, nothing more than an excuse for continuous griefing and harassment specifically directed towards players who participate in a certain type of game play activity.
While it seems CCP has turned a blind eye in allowing this issue to develop into the extremely large scale operation it currently is, some people could view that as favoritism, collusion and quite possibly some behind the scenes orchestration. All conspiracy theories aside, this definitely creates free advertisement for CCP through all the various gaming press releases and personal blogs.
Much like the infamous 'Burn Jita' campaign, CCP will probably ride this Rocket and try to spin it into positive press releases with the hope of gaining an increase in subscriptions. However, this premeditated and systematic 'Genocide' currently being conducted could cause that 'Free Press Rocket' to backfire and blow up in CCP's face, more than likely due to players feeling coerced into a Mass Exodus from the game.
There's just too many variables involved to really speculate on the outcome of all this. All the little Jihads and their 'Fallen Messiah' yelling 'Holy War' better watch out that it doesn't come back and bite them in the arse.
One thing is for sure: NOBODY IS SAFE
DMC
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
586
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:26:00 -
[190] - Quote
dmc in da house with bad postin' eh |
|
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx Luna Sanguinem
123
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:26:00 -
[191] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/231736/
Reading that article was like reading the ravings of a sanctimonious lunatic suffering from a god complex with delusions of grandeur.
I feel the same way... About your post. |
Alia Gon'die
Aliastra Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:29:00 -
[192] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/231736/
Reading that article was like reading the ravings of a sanctimonious lunatic suffering from a god complex with delusions of grandeur.
I feel the same way... About your post.
Careful guys, don't call DMC on his blatant hypocrisy or terrible posting. He likes to report people. |
Revajin
15 Minute Outliers Novus Dominatum
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:29:00 -
[193] - Quote
The Overlord is right. Eve is overwhelmingly carebear and all attempts by Goons or any other party to nudge the carebears toward taking a broader approach to the game has been met with hostility. Don't go soft on the high sec hardliners CCP, help to nudge. |
Alia Gon'die
Aliastra Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:30:00 -
[194] - Quote
DMC was better when he made Stainless Steel cars. Why can't we trade the badposting DMC for the coke dealing DMC? |
Johnny Rook
Requiem of the Sinner
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:32:00 -
[195] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Reading that article was like reading the ravings of a sanctimonious lunatic suffering from a god complex with delusions of grandeur.
I got wood. |
Torvin Yulus
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:33:00 -
[196] - Quote
Revajin wrote:The Overlord is right. Eve is overwhelmingly carebear and all attempts by Goons or any other party to nudge the carebears toward taking a broader approach to the game has been met with hostility. Don't go soft on the high sec hardliners CCP, help to nudge.
GO TRY THIS **** IN WOW GRIEFTARF |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
587
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:36:00 -
[197] - Quote
Torvin Yulus wrote:Revajin wrote:The Overlord is right. Eve is overwhelmingly carebear and all attempts by Goons or any other party to nudge the carebears toward taking a broader approach to the game has been met with hostility. Don't go soft on the high sec hardliners CCP, help to nudge. GO TRY THIS **** IN WOW GRIEFTARF
Go play that game then? eh |
Alia Gon'die
Aliastra Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:38:00 -
[198] - Quote
Torvin Yulus wrote:Revajin wrote:The Overlord is right. Eve is overwhelmingly carebear and all attempts by Goons or any other party to nudge the carebears toward taking a broader approach to the game has been met with hostility. Don't go soft on the high sec hardliners CCP, help to nudge. GO TRY THIS **** IN WOW GRIEFTARF
What is a Grieftarf? |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:49:00 -
[199] - Quote
Torvin Yulus wrote:Revajin wrote:The Overlord is right. Eve is overwhelmingly carebear and all attempts by Goons or any other party to nudge the carebears toward taking a broader approach to the game has been met with hostility. Don't go soft on the high sec hardliners CCP, help to nudge. GO TRY THIS **** IN WOW GRIEFTARF WTF?
I TYPZ COMPLEETLE RANDOMZ **** IN ALL CAPZ TOO! |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
345
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 03:53:00 -
[200] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/231736/
Reading that article was like reading the ravings of a sanctimonious lunatic suffering from a god complex with delusions of grandeur.
The hypocritical prejudiced statements, multiple fallacy's and blatant lies presented in that article hardly pales in comparison to the amount of biased posturing and distortion of reality presented in this thread by it's overzealous worshipers.
These fanatical Jihad players screaming 'Holy War' keep trying to validate the exploitation of unbalanced game mechanics as an intentional viable aspect of PvP. The constant referencing of generalized examples and debatable specifics is simply an attempt to justify their own actions, nothing more than an excuse for continuous griefing and harassment specifically directed towards players who participate in a certain type of game play activity.
While it seems CCP has turned a blind eye in allowing this issue to develop into the extremely large scale operation it currently is, some people could view that as favoritism, collusion and quite possibly some behind the scenes orchestration. All conspiracy theories aside, this definitely creates free advertisement for CCP through all the various gaming press releases and personal blogs.
Much like the infamous 'Burn Jita' campaign, CCP will probably ride this Rocket and try to spin it into positive press releases with the hope of gaining an increase in subscriptions. However, this premeditated and systematic 'Genocide' currently being conducted could cause that 'Free Press Rocket' to backfire and blow up in CCP's face, more than likely due to players feeling coerced into a Mass Exodus from the game.
There's just too many variables involved to really speculate on the outcome of all this. All the little Jihads and their 'Fallen Messiah' yelling 'Holy War' better watch out that it doesn't come back and bite them in the arse.
One thing is for sure: NOBODY IS SAFE
DMC
Thank god you signed your post, if you hadn't I would not have known it was you posting it. |
|
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
133
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 04:10:00 -
[201] - Quote
Because goonswarm is totally the most dangerous corp to be in. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
902
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 05:20:00 -
[202] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Because goonswarm is totally the most dangerous corp to be in.
To be fair, if we **** up, someone tends to send out a notification on the Goonswarm Instant Message app and 5000+ people instantly know about it. And if we REALLY **** up, said Instant Message app involves people forming a posse to kick the everloving **** out of us to make us learn. |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
349
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 05:21:00 -
[203] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Because goonswarm is totally the most dangerous corp to be in.
DBRB fleets have a high suicide rate. |
Samantha Utama
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 05:22:00 -
[204] - Quote
You guys who are threatening to quit, you do realize that if you quit, your Isk/hr goes down to 0, right?
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
980
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 06:43:00 -
[205] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:Jayrendo Karr wrote:Because goonswarm is totally the most dangerous corp to be in. DBRB fleets have a high suicide rate. I... oh no.
Oh no, I remember it all now, the horrible jokes, the stories ahhhh~~~
Xython wrote:Jayrendo Karr wrote:Because goonswarm is totally the most dangerous corp to be in. To be fair, if we **** up, someone tends to send out a notification on the Goonswarm Instant Message app and 5000+ people instantly know about it. And if we REALLY **** up, said Instant Message app involves people forming a posse to kick the everloving **** out of us to make us learn. Like when someone hotdrops you because you weren't watching local or intel. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
nat longshot
New Eden Inc.
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 07:47:00 -
[206] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:seany1212 wrote:Lexmana wrote:nat longshot wrote:Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch.
Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons. Wow. If you can't beat him in-game you are hoping that CCP will permaban him? Is this the kind of game you want to play? Unfortunately there are becoming more of these players... I thought it was a very good article representing the way ive viewed eve for a while and ive only been playing since 08, god knows how those who've been playing years before me view the game as now. For those bleeting that suicide ganking is easy, its only easy because you make it so. As for the reprocusions i went from practically 0 security status to -4.2 for 2 hulks, a retriever and a pod in 0.5 and 0.6 spaces. I now can only go in 0.5 and below and if i dipped below -5 im shootable anywhere in space. I fail to see how that isnt just rewards. Then again there are people bleeting to ban others for not playing to their gamestyle... You should push to just ban all the goons. Heck the whole CFC, why not since you're at it. I mean, threads have already been made on this subject, people will seriously repond to it. Of course goons will as well, because we all need our laughs, but that's the harsh world of the EVEO General Discussion forum. AS a whole i dont have a problem with gonos your leader on the other hand i have a problem with drunk or not at fanfest he done wrong and got nailed for it but hes think he was thrown under a bus come on goons for your leader and his big mouth would you follow a moron like that in the real world hell no.
I was in the army if my CO made a order like that i would trun his butt in and hang him out to dry. But its a game and you think what he wanted done is ok your the fool allso then.
|
Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
40
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 14:23:00 -
[207] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote: If ganking a miner is PVP then punching your grandma is a fistfight. Make all the excuses you want. It's not combat. It's a sucker punch. You like giving people sucker punches. That's who you are.
Although irrelevant to the thread, I must say that my old grandma could lift a pig of respectable frame under each arm. Leaving aside that punching her today would require a shovel and a map, nobody COULD punch her in her time.
A woman that could put a cow to sleep with a lighthearted slap past 60, she was.
Also, no, I don't like giving people sucker punches. BUT, when I share a game with other OPPONENTS, I'd rather "win". I want their resources in my wallet, or destroyed.
And this does not make me a terrible person, or a psycopath. We're playing a spaceships game where fun can be obtained by making other spaceships explode. So, as a result, spaceships are forced to explode.
That doesn't mean I'd steal your car in real life, or kick your toddler on the face, even if I could get away with it.
Because they are not playing a game with me, see? |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
508
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 14:37:00 -
[208] - Quote
nat longshot wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:seany1212 wrote:Lexmana wrote:nat longshot wrote:Mittani's lucky they did not permaban his sry butt months ago. keep push ccp and beat it will happen. But for now ill sit back and get a tub of popcorn and watch.
Mittani's times is comeing i can feel it. So is goons. Wow. If you can't beat him in-game you are hoping that CCP will permaban him? Is this the kind of game you want to play? Unfortunately there are becoming more of these players... I thought it was a very good article representing the way ive viewed eve for a while and ive only been playing since 08, god knows how those who've been playing years before me view the game as now. For those bleeting that suicide ganking is easy, its only easy because you make it so. As for the reprocusions i went from practically 0 security status to -4.2 for 2 hulks, a retriever and a pod in 0.5 and 0.6 spaces. I now can only go in 0.5 and below and if i dipped below -5 im shootable anywhere in space. I fail to see how that isnt just rewards. Then again there are people bleeting to ban others for not playing to their gamestyle... You should push to just ban all the goons. Heck the whole CFC, why not since you're at it. I mean, threads have already been made on this subject, people will seriously repond to it. Of course goons will as well, because we all need our laughs, but that's the harsh world of the EVEO General Discussion forum. AS a whole i dont have a problem with gonos your leader on the other hand i have a problem with drunk or not at fanfest he done wrong and got nailed for it but hes think he was thrown under a bus come on goons for your leader and his big mouth would you follow a moron like that in the real world hell no. I was in the army if my CO made a order like that i would trun his butt in and hang him out to dry. But its a game and you think what he wanted done is ok your the fool allso then. If you think as good as you write I can understand your frustration. Life is hard right? And EVE is hard. You may need help. And there was no order. Your CO is fine. I promise. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
363
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 14:38:00 -
[209] - Quote
There's really not much point even asking a whiny Hulk pilot what their definition of PVP is - at the end of the day, no matter what words they choose to say it, the definition is going to be "something that doesn't let you shoot me". |
Dendrin Koljn
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 15:34:00 -
[210] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:There's really not much point even asking a whiny Hulk pilot what their definition of PVP is - at the end of the day, no matter what words they choose to say it, the definition is going to be "something that doesn't let you shoot me".
Whiny Hulk pilot here (well every now and again)... i shoot you or you shoot me..maybe the market interaction but as that can exist in a PvE enviroment then to me its just the shooty stuff.
as for the main thread.....I'm wondering...
1. Why does Mitt care about high sec ?....its only a small section of the universe and its only got the low end mins anyway. 2. Who gains from hulks being ganked ? at the end of the chain the Hulk BPO owners...so who owns them ?
The gank mechanic hasnt changed since ive been playing, if anything its become slighty more risky to the ganker...but with alts (which personally I would remove - also limit it to 1 account per person)...then the risk is still pretty small (as in the result expected is still almost certain)...and i dont expect it to change anytime soon.
I would like to see more/different consequences for this , but as a overall change not just hulk gank specific...ie...if you blow up a player in a NPC corp then no matter where you are your standing with that NPC corp+faction+agents should take a hit. But also players in NPC corps should take standing hits for shooting freindlies to that corp.
And the 'prize' is only 10M isk per hulk killed.....your gunna have to make sure you get a good drop to make it worth the time. |
|
Alia Gon'die
Aliastra Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 15:37:00 -
[211] - Quote
Dendrin Koljn wrote:Snow Axe wrote:There's really not much point even asking a whiny Hulk pilot what their definition of PVP is - at the end of the day, no matter what words they choose to say it, the definition is going to be "something that doesn't let you shoot me". Whiny Hulk pilot here (well every now and again)... i shoot you or you shoot me..maybe the market interaction but as that can exist in a PvE enviroment then to me its just the shooty stuff. as for the main thread.....I'm wondering... 1. Why does Mitt care about high sec ?....its only a small section of the universe and its only got the low end mins anyway. 2. Who gains from hulks being ganked ? at the end of the chain the Hulk BPO owners...so who owns them ? The gank mechanic hasnt changed since ive been playing, if anything its become slighty more risky to the ganker...but with alts (which personally I would remove - also limit it to 1 account per person)...then the risk is still pretty small (as in the result expected is still almost certain)...and i dont expect it to change anytime soon. I would like to see more/different consequences for this , but as a overall change not just hulk gank specific...ie...if you blow up a player in a NPC corp then no matter where you are your standing with that NPC corp+faction+agents should take a hit. But also players in NPC corps should take standing hits for shooting freindlies to that corp. And the 'prize' is only 10M isk per hulk killed.....your gunna have to make sure you get a good drop to make it worth the time.
Actually, the people who profit are the ones who supply the materials for the Hulk BPO owners. Guess who that is? |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
363
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 15:41:00 -
[212] - Quote
Dendrin Koljn wrote:1. Why does Mitt care about high sec ?....its only a small section of the universe and its only got the low end mins anyway. 2. Who gains from hulks being ganked ? at the end of the chain the Hulk BPO owners...so who owns them ?
1. Take a look at the gnashing of teeth just from ANNOUNCING he was going to continue payouts. Making people explode with self-righteous rage is one of the conerstones of what makes Eve great. Burn Jita and Hulkageddon and other such things are just extensions of that.
2. Anyone who produces Hulk hulls, T2 strips, MLU's, and very rarely shield tank mods benefit directly, as does anyone who produces T1/T2 blasters, Magstabs, Catalyst hulls, etc. Gankers benefit because it's fun, we benefit because watching people rage is fun, non-stupid miners benefit due to less competition. Even the gankee might benefit if they decide to try to do something about the loss (tank the Hulk, mine in a different place, mine in a different ship, etc). The only true losers are the babies who insist they have some inherent right to mine in a very expensive full-yield-fit hull wherever they want with complete safety from any kind of threat. |
Cutout Man
Archimedean Point
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 16:14:00 -
[213] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Dendrin Koljn wrote:1. Why does Mitt care about high sec ?....its only a small section of the universe and its only got the low end mins anyway. 2. Who gains from hulks being ganked ? at the end of the chain the Hulk BPO owners...so who owns them ? 1. Take a look at the gnashing of teeth just from ANNOUNCING he was going to continue payouts. Making people explode with self-righteous rage is one of the conerstones of what makes Eve great. Burn Jita and Hulkageddon and other such things are just extensions of that. 2. Anyone who produces Hulk hulls, T2 strips, MLU's, and very rarely shield tank mods benefit directly, as does anyone who produces T1/T2 blasters, Magstabs, Catalyst hulls, etc. Gankers benefit because it's fun, we benefit because watching people rage is fun, non-stupid miners benefit due to less competition. Even the gankee might benefit if they decide to try to do something about the loss (tank the Hulk, mine in a different place, mine in a different ship, etc). The only true losers are the babies who insist they have some inherent right to mine in a very expensive full-yield-fit hull wherever they want with complete safety from any kind of threat. Who the **** are you kidding? http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/04/week-in-life-bottleneck.html |
Vinn Kelsier
State War Academy Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.05.31 16:19:00 -
[214] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:In his latest Ten Ton Hammer article, The Mittani writes about many players' entitlement to "opt out" of PvP. Some even believe that this game does allow you to "opt out" by living in hisec, where the game's tutorial taught them how to shoot an NPC and mine an asteroid. Many believe that suicide ganking is an exploit, that CONCORD exists to protect them from all harm, and that nonconsensual PvP does not have a place in hisec. Many seem to agree with this notion - "suicide ganks drive away new players," they say. Or "it's bad for subscriptions." Whatever the reason, one thing is clear - they wish to destroy the philosophy behind the design of EVE, that competition is not optional, and the niche of the MMO world where it reigns - the PvP-centric MMO. The Mittani writes: Quote:It is undeniable: games as a whole are getting easier each year, with more handholding, simpler control schemes, extended tutorials, and a relentless drive to seize the money of even the most drooling incompetent. Simultaneously, games are getting more immersive and addictive, with the psychological feedback loops first seen in MUDs exploding into the MMO industry with Everquest and then being refined into their most destructive forms by both Blizzard and Zynga. What does a hobby with ever-increasing levels of addiction, ease, and immersion for its users create? A sense of entitlement - an entitlement that is a threat to every GÇÿhardGÇÖ game out there, but especially to EVE Online.
Despite CCPGÇÖs explicit marketing of EVE as a harsh universe full of mayhem and murder, despite Hulkageddons, despite the Great War, and despite the Burning of Jita, there is a silent, ignorant herd of players who genuinely believe that EVE is just like the other MMOs on the market - the PvP-optional, hand-holding MMOs who will pat you on the back, wipe away your tears, and give you a 30-second respawn with no consequences. When these people discover that EVE is not World of Warcraft (WoW), they rush to the forums and loudly bleat out their indignation and horror at encountering loss or danger. Read on: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/231736/
Hola
I could not "like" this more than once so I just repeated it FTW!
Vinn
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
363
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 16:23:00 -
[215] - Quote
Fine, for Mr. Pedant here, go ahead and add "anyone who supplies components to build any of the products I listed above". Yes, that includes Technetium holders (among many, many others). Congratulations, you've solved the puzzle!
We'd still do this even if there was 0 tech in Hulks, btw. Selling more Tech is a happy side benefit. |
Calydarix Blackmoor
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.05.31 16:31:00 -
[216] - Quote
Quote:"Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised."
Well, given that EVE is about the ONLY MMO that is still growing after as many years as it has been around, and the fact that most of the new "theme-park" mmo's that embrace this entitlement philosophy are drying up and dying at an ever more alarming rate (just look at SWTOR) I would say I think you have it wrong as to which item is the "cancer"
There is a cancer alright and its trying to infect EVE online just like all the other MMO's out there. I for one hope it doesn't succeed.
EVE is the first MMO I have played that didn't feel like a carbon copy of the rest. Say no to WOW in space.
~C |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
995
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 17:53:00 -
[217] - Quote
Calydarix Blackmoor wrote:EVE is the first MMO I have played that didn't feel like a carbon copy of the rest. Say no to WOW in space. But you can dress up your character... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Hauling Hal
The Black Ops
65
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Posted - 2012.05.31 18:16:00 -
[218] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Hauling Hal wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Eventually, after you clowns have driven off enough of the sub base, the VP of Sony accounting might have a word with the mgmt level at CCP and suggest that the cancer within Eve be excised.
Because Sony has an awesome reputation at running MMOs and not losing thousands of customers or killing entire products because of stupid decisions at the executive level? If you are talking about SWG then you should go read up on facts before you post again. Sony had to change the game because Locus Arts who owns Star Wars rights wanted to bring in WoW like numbers and forced Sony to make the changes and the game died. Those are the facts but idiots like you just listened to what the masses said and took it for fact like normal instead of doing a little amount of research on your own. Its not like we live in the information age or anything. Oh wait. lazy uninformed idiots like you are ruining this world with your nonsense.
SWG, MxO, V:SoH, EQ2, etc, etc |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
376
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:08:00 -
[219] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:No one has ever said they should be protected from ganking. They have said the consequences are not balanced.
This unbalanced consequence is only a mere illusion. We have:
1. No insurance insurance payout to suicide gankers. 2. Faction navy begins to chase down outlaws with -5.0 sec status as soon as they either board a ship in space or undock in a ship. 3. Concord's response time is consistent with a star system's sec status. If you mine in 0.8 space or higher, Concord will save you 80% of the time. The other 20% is when the gankers are determined enough to really kill you. In other words, you had to have pissed them off enough to make the expense of resources to gank you in that system worth it. 4. As soon as the gankers aggress anyone in high-sec, their ships become fair game to everyone in the system. 5. Anyone with -5.0 can be podded in high-sec. There are frigates out there that instalock. The Jaguar and Dramiel are well known for this as they are usually tackler ships. 6. Mercenaries can be hired to hunt and kill someone without having to actually place the bounty on this. This is why API-verified kill reports are important. You can use Eve-Kill.net as your number one source for verifying kill reports if you don't trust the in-game bounty system. 7. Contrary to popular belief, a well piloted and well fitted logistics ship can save a Hulk from an Alpha strike. 6. Most gankers are very disorganized. Many will fail to scan your ship's fittings before ganking and then realize that their T1-fitted Catalyst is unable to break your 30,000 overheated/fleet-boosted EHP tank. 8. Most gankers attack for profit when they see faction or officer mods fitted on your ship. Make yourself NOT worth the trouble and stick to T2 mods only.
As you can see, there are plenty of ways to counter gankers. I'm and both a constant survivor of ganks and I am also a ganker, so I have the experience and knowledge of both professions. It's not really that hard.
Again, this "unbalance consequence" as the carebears have pointed out is only an illusion imposed by the ignorant masses. Adapt or Die |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
376
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:13:00 -
[220] - Quote
PS: The only reason the fuzzy wuzzy carebears are crying out bloody murder now is because they are just beginning to notice Eve Online's true harsh nature 9 YEARS after all this started. Eve Online is no different than the real world global market. Sure, corporate executives go to jail, but how many of them really go to jail while the rest work the system to their favor and get away with the rest? A lot.
ADAPT OR DIE Adapt or Die |
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
552
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Posted - 2012.08.28 23:52:00 -
[221] - Quote
No, they are crying because CCP doesn't change the rules quickly enough to suit them after gankers successfully adapt to new conditions.
Miners: "Buff Concord" CCP: OK. Gankers: Whatever (keep ganking) Bears: "Take away insurance" CCP: Sure. Gankers: Whatever (keep ganking) Bears: "Buff Concord again!" CCP: U got it. Gankers: (roll eyes) Whatever...and keep ganking. Bears: "More EHP!" CCP: Your wish is our command! Gankers: "This is getting ridiculous" Bears: HAHA! Ganker tears. |
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ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
128
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Posted - 2012.08.29 03:50:00 -
[222] - Quote
*Takes aim*
*BOOM*
*Headshot*
Now stay dead. ISD Type40 Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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