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Kyra Neve
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Posted - 2009.08.18 20:04:00 -
[1]
New QEN states that 97% of T2 production is done by using T2 BPC's.
Will this end the T2 BPO whining?
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.08.18 20:16:00 -
[2]
No, sorry
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Dzil
Caldari Frosted Pancakes
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Posted - 2009.08.18 20:16:00 -
[3]
Maybe. Though if the copy time of a t2 bpo is lower than the production time, and the non-time costs of creating a BPC are neglible in this market, then... no.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Tourai
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Posted - 2009.08.18 20:23:00 -
[4]
What is the whining about? That there are too few T2 BPOs distributed amongst the population or that there are to many?
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Dzil
Caldari Frosted Pancakes
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Posted - 2009.08.18 20:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tourai What is the whining about? That there are too few T2 BPOs distributed amongst the population or that there are to many?
The usual whine from the have-nots and inventors is that T2 BPO holders can always produce cheaper than them, and therefore dictate the price, squeezing out any chance for profit. Most players brush this off as rubbish, as the amount of t2 producable by the bpo holders is inadequate to supply the whole demand, so there will always remain a profit point for inventors, even if the barriers to entry are not cheap.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel
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Posted - 2009.08.18 20:33:00 -
[6]
This explains the QEN.
I said it nearly a year ago and I'll say it again, Inventors are the t2 masters, not bpo holders.
------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel
Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/ |
Reginald Rartan
More Money Ltd Neutrino Technologies
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Posted - 2009.08.18 21:05:00 -
[7]
and here a link to the QEN
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1152589&page=1#1
Now MML bonds have a homepage. Subscribe, reserve and buy bonds |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.18 21:50:00 -
[8]
Though it has to be said that the blatantly unprofitable invented T2 ships could be still profitable done with BPOs. So BPO owners have 2 niches: fast production ships like intys and "otherwise not profitable" T2 ships. - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.08.18 22:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kyra Neve New QEN states that 97% of T2 production is done by using T2 BPC's.
Will this end the T2 BPO whining?
Errm... it states that BPO are in production longer than the short run BPC, so of course more BPC are used.
You may have missed the part where it states that 30% of all T2 items produced are from BPO. This was surprising to me; I would have thought / hoped only 5%.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.08.18 22:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kyra Neve New QEN states that 97% of T2 production is done by using T2 BPC's.
Please get your information correct.
Page 35 of the QEN states that 97% of installed jobs were from BPCs. A BPC can not be installed for 30 days of production, with most modules lasting only a few hours so many many more installations are required to do those jobs.
On page 41 is states that 56% of all T2 ships were produced from BPOs and on page 44 it states that 32% of all modules were built from BPOs.
Jobs installed does not equal units built. I can do 10,000 production jobs by doing 1 run at a time, or 1 job 30 days at a time.
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Xianthar
STK Scientific The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.18 22:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Breaker77
Please get your information correct.
Page 35 of the QEN states that 97% of installed jobs were from BPCs. A BPC can not be installed for 30 days of production, with most modules lasting only a few hours so many many more installations are required to do those jobs.
On page 41 is states that 56% of all T2 ships were produced from BPOs and on page 44 it states that 32% of all modules were built from BPOs.
Jobs installed does not equal units built. I can do 10,000 production jobs by doing 1 run at a time, or 1 job 30 days at a time.
this
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.08.18 23:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ulecese How many of you would say that owning a Tech2 module BPO is far more profitable than inventing the BPC's to produce from? Most likely, the majority of you. However there is only a handful of Tech2 module BPO's that are worth having, and even still some owners of these BPO's would struggle to compete with a T2 BPC Inventor/producer in a price war.
Case Example (Co-Processor II) BPO vs BPC Module sale Price : 650,000 ISK
Unresearched T2 BPO 1 hour, 16 mins to produce 1 unit Production Cost per unit : 37,522 ISK Maximum Volume : 18 units per day Profit Per Unit : 612,448 ISK Profit Per Day : 11,024,064 ISK
10 run T2 BPC 2 hour, 33 mins to produce 1 unit Production Cost per unit : 52,442 ISK Maximum Volume : 9 units per day Invention Cost : 2,437,612 ISK Profit Per Unit : 326,712 ISK Profit Per Day : 2,940,410 ISK
As you can see, the Tech2 BPO appears to be more profitable than using an invented Tech2 BPC. However, the BPO owner is limited to using the 1 print and therefore 1 slot at a time. He can manufacture at most 18 units per day. The Tech2 BPC Inventor/Producer isn't restricted in this way, and can have upto 11 slots running 10run Tech2 BPC's in each production slot. His volume can be upto 99 units per day.
Why is this significant? It will take the BPO owner over 5 days to produce the volume that the BPC user can come up with in 1 day. Over the course of a 28 day period : T2 BPO Owner/Producer will have been able to produce 504 units T2 BPC Inventor/Producer will have been able to produce 2,772 units
If Both the BPC Inventor/Producer and the BPO Owner/Producer made these modules none stop for a year, the Inventor would net approx 11,805,738,120 ISK in profits. The BPO Owner nets almost 66% less at 4,023,783,360 ISK profits (providing the all sold of course...)
Price War? As you can see from the above statistics, the profit per unit using the BPO to manufacture from is almost double that if using BPC's. That said, the BPO Owner/Producer could just as easily half the price he sells the modules at in an attempt to 'push out' the BPC Inventor/Producer who's profit margin has suddenly disapeared...
This would be a foolish mistake.
The BPC Inventor/Producer simply buys up the BPO Owner/Producers stock at the reduced sell price (which incidently works out at what it would have cost the Inventor/Producer to manufacture) and simply relists it at it's normal price. All the BPO Owner did here was supply his competition with 20% more volume at cost.
Volume is King and Inventors/Producers are the ones who can exploit this with ease.
This example was shown using an unresearched Tech2 BPO, so this would obviously alter the overall results/volumes depending on the research levels. It's however not enough to change the facts I have presented. Use of certain Decryptors balance this out. You can easily Investigate this yourself with any Tech 2 BPO doing an item type search, and comparing it against an invented print. Once you have the information and done your research, it's easy to spot where the Tech 2 BPO owners seed the market, which you can then go and muscle them out...
Final Thoughts. There is only a handful of Tech2 BPO's that it's impossible to compete with as an Inventor/Producer. Certain Tech2 drone BPO's and some mining crystal BPO's are a waste of time inventing.
Invention/Production requires alot more attention to detail and specifics compared to Tech 2 BPO's. It's more time consuming and has far greater risks associated (i.e random invention success chance, fluxuating datacore prices), but if researched and carried out correctly you will be very sucessful..
Tech 2 BPO owners are no longer in control of the tech2 market - Inventor/Producers are the new masters, just very very few of those doing it, realise it.
I totaly disagree with you 100%. . . not!
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Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.08.18 23:13:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 18/08/2009 23:14:33
Originally by: Xianthar
Originally by: Breaker77
Please get your information correct.
Page 35 of the QEN states that 97% of installed jobs were from BPCs. A BPC can not be installed for 30 days of production, with most modules lasting only a few hours so many many more installations are required to do those jobs.
On page 41 is states that 56% of all T2 ships were produced from BPOs and on page 44 it states that 32% of all modules were built from BPOs.
Jobs installed does not equal units built. I can do 10,000 production jobs by doing 1 run at a time, or 1 job 30 days at a time.
this
the reality is though that if EVE S population continues to climb you will see that ration swing more and more to BPCs due to a combination of lost BPOs (from banhammers IG loss and people who own them leaving the game) and increased demand
(its posible that Lost BPOs will result in a incresed ratio to degree if EVEs population stablizes and/or declines)
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.08.18 23:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kyra Neve New QEN states that 97% of T2 production is done by using T2 BPC's.
Will this end the T2 BPO whining?
Failed reading with understading.
/Thread.
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
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Posted - 2009.08.19 00:41:00 -
[15]
I can only see this thread going place =P
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Cheeba Don
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.08.19 02:24:00 -
[16]
"Excluding drones and ammo, approximately 9.8 million Tech II items were produced in Q2. Out of these, 6.5 million items were produced from BPCs, with the remaining items being produced from BPOs. Proportionally, a third of all Tech II production is executed with BPOs, and the remaining is done with BPCs."
OP's ability to post on forums before finishing readin paragraph = 10/10! :P ---------
oOk! |
Iridescent Moon
Caldari Iridescent Dawn
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Posted - 2009.08.19 02:36:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Steve Thomas
I totaly disagree with you 100%. . . not!
you quoted far to much there to repost. There is a small bit missing in that whole stack of info...
Nothing stops a BPO holder from inventing BPC's to make a T2 item. So the T2 BPO holder can make more ISK then the invent only player can. They also don't have to support as much invention to make more ISK. That means less time spent supporting the process and more time doing something else.
If it's worth inventing, a BPO holder wins.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.19 03:09:00 -
[18]
Everyone is missing the bigger picture.
Who won the better pool? |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.19 03:12:00 -
[19]
Ohh yeah.. I loved this snippet too
"We can use standard economic theory to analyse general trends but getting down to the specifics takes you guys, the pilots of EVE, to digest and debate the findings in the QEN for the second quarter of 2009."
Thanks for throwing us that bone... you know.. us the MD denizens who often know what happens, when it happens, and more often than not, before it even happens. |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.08.19 04:30:00 -
[20]
I'm surprised at you guys; nobody even mentioned the initial outlay of having a T2 BPO (for those who are just now buying it) and the temporary lock of capital inherent in owning it. That multiple billion ISK BPO is money that could simply be used for even more invention/production (with alts if need be).
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.19 06:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Iridescent Moon
Originally by: Steve Thomas
I totaly disagree with you 100%. . . not!
you quoted far to much there to repost. There is a small bit missing in that whole stack of info...
Nothing stops a BPO holder from inventing BPC's to make a T2 item. So the T2 BPO holder can make more ISK then the invent only player can. They also don't have to support as much invention to make more ISK. That means less time spent supporting the process and more time doing something else.
If it's worth inventing, a BPO holder wins.
And he has to immobilize much more isk in the BPo than a inventor have to immobilize in T1 BPO and interfaces.
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2009.08.19 06:09:00 -
[22]
Anyone can own T2 BPOs.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.08.19 09:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ray McCormack Anyone can own T2 BPOs.
Curiously, the first thing that appeared on that page is how the CEO direly acted against the EULA. With Ricdic as well... - Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.08.19 10:28:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 19/08/2009 10:35:38 Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 19/08/2009 10:34:03 Only thing that'll stop my whining about them is when they stop being an absolute abortion of a game mechanic.
Edit: Before any "haves vs have nots" replies, during the days when all I did was industry, I considered buying one and realised it'd be the stupidest thing I could do with my ISK.
And before the "If you had more isk than you knew what to do with, you'd realise why they are so expensive" replies, yes, you're right, which makes them a complete abortion of a mechanic. They get their value merely from being A) Collectors Items B) An "I own everything I need and still have ISK, so I'll throw it all at that" item.
That's it. They're completely impractical, as Ul,,, wheelbarrow with an X said,,
Quote:
Tech 2 BPO owners are no longer in control of the tech2 market - Inventor/Producers are the new masters, just very very few of those doing it, realise it.
As an industrialist, I have zero desire to own one.
AKA a complete abortion of a game mechanic.
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Curiously, the first thing that appeared on that page is how the CEO direly acted against the EULA. With Ricdic as well...
Only EULA breakers and CCP employees can own T2 BPOs.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.19 12:18:00 -
[26]
And actually, if you want to get technical about it.
T2 BPO owners used to be master of the market. Now moon goo holders are, not inventors.
Inventors just have an advantage of liquidity to shift markets to avoid losses more quickly.
But then again this is nothing that hasn't been said here nearly a million times over already. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.08.19 14:17:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dzil Maybe. Though if the copy time of a t2 bpo is lower than the production time, and the non-time costs of creating a BPC are neglible in this market, then... no.
They're not, the copy time is twice as long, so copying to build would effectively halve the amount you could produce, AND introduce an extra step.
Quote: You may have missed the part where it states that 30% of all T2 items produced are from BPO. This was surprising to me; I would have thought / hoped only 5%.
It's more like 10% of popular items and 100% of the useless items. There are 10,000 + T2 BPOs, it's bound to be some. But you'll not the only market they have impact on in terms of pricing, is the markets in which they produce 100%, in which case it means demand is less than the supply that BPOs can provide, which is very low to non existant for that item.
Originally by: Breaker77 On page 41 is states that 56% of all T2 ships were produced from BPOs and on page 44 it states that 32% of all modules were built from BPOs.
Jobs installed does not equal units built. I can do 10,000 production jobs by doing 1 run at a time, or 1 job 30 days at a time.
Jobs installed was a useless measure (though at least it was clarified). As it seems is measuring T2 production by 'runs produced'.
56% of T2 ships from BPOs, 32% modules, totalling 33% (and this by the way excludes ammo and drones). Lumping modules for which many hundred can be produced per month with ships of which a few dozen per month is the norm together really isn't that worthwhile.
Of course there is obviously a generous amount of invention being done for some ammo and drones (The popular ones) which would likely dilute the T2 build percentage lower. Though there are many T2 drone/ammo prints that are not particularly profitable because the items they build are not really useful compared to other drones or faction ammo.
Originally by: Cheeba Don "Excluding drones and ammo, approximately 9.8 million Tech II items were produced in Q2. Out of these, 6.5 million items were produced from BPCs, with the remaining items being produced from BPOs. Proportionally, a third of all Tech II production is executed with BPOs, and the remaining is done with BPCs."
OP's ability to post on forums before finishing readin paragraph = 10/10! :P
I know, and even you totally missed where that doesn't include drones or the 2.6 BILLION units of ammo produced and 5 million drones of which 70% of the production was of the top 5 types (which means that a combination of the other drones being crap and a huge amount of invention on those types.
Everyone has to keep in mind it wasn't THAT long ago T2 BPOs were 100% of production. Imagine what the prices would be like if that was still the case. And be aware that invention was introduced not to remove T2 BPOs, but to limit their potential, something that it is quite clearly effective at doing, with former >20 million isk modules selling for less than 1 million isk with 88% of their supply coming from BPCs.
The irony is that the more profitable BPOs, are the ones that have the highest percentage of the market being provided by BPCs. While the more worthless BPOs are the ones that can supply the market mostly themselves, and the collectors value only ones are the ones that supply all the market.
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Brenten007
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Posted - 2009.08.19 14:20:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Brenten007 on 19/08/2009 14:24:26 No, it won't end.
I am whining too because the game features allows you to invent stuff as part of the game. It is a part of the sales pitch that CCP put out. Then to come on board as a new player all to find out that you can't get a t2 bpo's any more. This could be consider as false advertisement.
I am a new players and I would like to have some of those T2 BPO's for myself. For the simple fact that I can replace my T2 hulk, t2 mining crystal, t2 ammo, etc at a reduce cost. Knowing this game, someone will always want to gank you, destroy you, and screw you over every chance they can get, and replacing ships like a hulk is expensive and I'm on a budget! (100 - 120 mil per hulk)
Among those 6200 accounts that was permanently ban from "Unholy Rage", How many T2 BPO's are they sitting in there inventory and are they going to redistribute those bpo's to real player? For all we know, they probably cornered the market on t2 bpo's and have 90% of the total t2 bpo's in game limit.
What about players that owns t2 bpo that had left the game?
What about the T2 BPC with just 1 run? Come on... At least give us one full batch run. I researched a t2 Velspar mining crystal and a Nemisis frigate. The Nemisis Frigate I can completely understand 1 run but not the t2 Velspar mining crystal. The mining crystal should have been 1500 runs at least and same with all ammo type t2 bpc or in a good qty.
I understand that there are limits to bpo but all the older players has them. What about the new players that just started the game with absolutely no chance of getting them? How unfair is that?
And if you want to sell a t2 bpo of any kind, you can probably ask for 999 trillion isk or until the eve calculator breaks.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.19 14:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Brenten007
I understand that there are limits to bpo but all the older players has them. What about the new players that just started the game with absolutely no chance of getting them? How unfair is that?
Not unfair at all. |
Brenten007
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Posted - 2009.08.19 14:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Brenten007
I understand that there are limits to bpo but all the older players has them. What about the new players that just started the game with absolutely no chance of getting them? How unfair is that?
Not unfair at all.
Its absolutely unfair!!!
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