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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1672
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:05:00 -
[91] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Put enough effort into the game and you too can own a Supercap. But again, you want your income to be effort free and risk free, and that is anathema to EvE. Can you name even one small alliance that owns supercap? Yeah, just as I thought. Like you said building one requires a lot of minerals. Just not going to happen to small alliances (<1000 members).
Yeah, there are tons of small alliances with Supers. There not all that expensive. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1672
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:06:00 -
[92] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Anyway, I suggested that you have one of your corpmates (the guys you mine with) switch to a healing bat (Rokh with shield reps). Tah Dah. 20 mil / hour / logi That will cut in profits if all minerals are used to build ships for sale. Never said protection is free. Let me guess. - Pay a guy 20M per Hulk - Miner goes to sell his junk at Jita: Trit at 14 ISK pu, Pyerite at 19. What he finds are sell orders for 8 and 10 ISK pu because somebody else imported it from other sec....
If the reward you get for some activity is unacceptable for the risk or effort it takes, don't do that activity. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:09:00 -
[93] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Yeah, there are tons of small alliances with Supers. There not all that expensive.
60/90 billion is pocket money for everyone. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1016
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:10:00 -
[94] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Give me an holler once you found out how you RR a mack.
I guess your answer is to ice mine in a Rokh. Hulks can mine Ice. Hulks can be tanked and RRed. So, what are Macks in game for? To mine Ice better at the expense of a complete inability to tank. Every benefit has a cost.
And since perma-geddon is perma, what's the benefit since there's only cost? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1016
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:12:00 -
[95] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Anyway, I suggested that you have one of your corpmates (the guys you mine with) switch to a healing bat (Rokh with shield reps). Tah Dah. 20 mil / hour / logi That will cut in profits if all minerals are used to build ships for sale. Never said protection is free. Let me guess. - Pay a guy 20M per Hulk - Miner goes to sell his junk at Jita: Trit at 14 ISK pu, Pyerite at 19. What he finds are sell orders for 8 and 10 ISK pu because somebody else imported it from other sec.... If the reward you get for some activity is unacceptable for the risk or effort it takes, don't do that activity.
And this want meant to be and heavily advertised as sandbox?
Players sure understand being affected by others' castles and even getting theirs stomped some times.
But this is downright OBEY AND DO WHAT WE DEMAND. No, actually it's subtler: "Feel free to try play the game different than how we demand. You'll get ROFLstomped in the process but that's freedom for you". Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Owena Owoked
Apocalypse Reign
6
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:12:00 -
[96] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:Large Marg wrote:The mindless rambling of the Goon Goobers is only that. Mindless.
They are more then likely the same people who go to protest waving the anarchist banner. They are there to only stir the pot and nothing more.
Anarchists are stupid. So are you. http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f91/Shaunessy/Anarchy.jpg You are stupid. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7528
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:16:00 -
[97] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:And this want meant to be and heavily advertised as sandbox? With butterfly effect showing the lil guy changing the universe in a rifter and everything? He didn't think the risk was unacceptable. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1673
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:21:00 -
[98] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Yeah, there are tons of small alliances with Supers. There not all that expensive. 60/90 billion is pocket money for everyone.
No, but it's fairly easy to get if you have a hundred people working for it.
You said that no small alliances have supers. Stop trying to move the goalposts. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1016
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:23:00 -
[99] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:And this want meant to be and heavily advertised as sandbox? With butterfly effect showing the lil guy changing the universe in a rifter and everything? He didn't think the risk was unacceptable.
It's not about risk.
Today I am risking 17 billions in an investment and I am totally OK with it. Investments in EvE are vastly less safe than mining in low sec.
But it's about the tedium. Imagine a guy who just wants to / can login for 30 minutes before dinner and wants to dig a rock for his reasons.
Now he's supposed to hire a logistic pilot who will actually stick there for 30 minutes? Please sent me the email of such a moron, I want to make him mow my lawn.
And at the end his prices will not be competitive at all. First he lost yield because he had to def-tard-tank his ship, then he loses more because he has basically to feed 2 people with the income of 1.
This is not about risk, this is a stupid scenario that won't happen.
Ah, of course the guy is free to biomass, reroll another pilot with combat stats and go shoot people around. Because he is paying a sub to obey to some unknown pr!cks who decided today you will dance to the right and tomorrow to the left. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3948
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:23:00 -
[100] - Quote
Alpha > Rep.
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1673
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:25:00 -
[101] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Give me an holler once you found out how you RR a mack.
I guess your answer is to ice mine in a Rokh. Hulks can mine Ice. Hulks can be tanked and RRed. So, what are Macks in game for? To mine Ice better at the expense of a complete inability to tank. Every benefit has a cost. And since perma-geddon is perma, what's the benefit since there's only cost?
The benefit is that you mine Ice better. If that benefit doesn't outweigh the cost of not being able to tank in your situation, don't use the ship. Very simple.
So far as I understand, most miners are people who have free will and the capacity to change their behavior (what ship you undock in is a behavior), so I don't see why they're having so much trouble with the idea that it may not be a good idea to be sitting in a belt when you have a bounty on your head. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
954
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:26:00 -
[102] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Give me an holler once you found out how you RR a mack.
I guess your answer is to ice mine in a Rokh. Hulks can mine Ice. Hulks can be tanked and RRed. So, what are Macks in game for?
mining in low/null where you actually have a chance of keeping an eye on things so you don't get blapped?
seriously, T2 ships in hisec are just easy targets. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:27:00 -
[103] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:No, but it's fairly easy to get if you have a hundred people working for it.
Would take 5+ years. Even if you get lucky with X-Type drops.
Velicitia wrote:T2 ships in hisec are just easy targets.
Haven't lost any of my cloakies or interceptors yet. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
271
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:27:00 -
[104] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:And this want meant to be and heavily advertised as sandbox? With butterfly effect showing the lil guy changing the universe in a rifter and everything? He didn't think the risk was unacceptable. It's not about risk. Today I am risking 17 billions in an investment and I am totally OK with it. Investments in EvE are vastly less safe than mining in low sec. But it's about the tedium. Imagine a guy who just wants to / can login for 30 minutes before dinner and wants to dig a rock for his reasons. Now he's supposed to hire a logistic pilot who will actually stick there for 30 minutes? Please sent me the email of such a moron, I want to make him mow my lawn. And at the end his prices will not be competitive at all. First he lost yield because he had to def-tard-tank his ship, then he loses more because he has basically to feed 2 people with the income of 1. This is not about risk, this is a stupid scenario that won't happen. Ah, of course the guy is free to biomass, reroll another pilot with combat stats and go shoot people around. Because he is paying a sub to obey to some unknown pr!cks who decided today you will dance to the right and tomorrow to the left.
Mining is not as risky as you make it seem.
I see plenty of groups mining in highsec (yes even close to jita), even with hulkageddon going on you do not have much change to become a victim of a suicide gank. There are a lot of ways to minimize risk. Don't make it look as if it is impossible to mine these days.
Fix FW ! |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
18
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:34:00 -
[105] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Why do you mine? I don't know. That's your call.
If you want a Tech moon, go take it. Dotlan's got them pretty well mapped out. Yeah, very easy task to take moon from Goons or PL when they have supercap gatecamps everywhere.
aaahh so what seems off here? You complain that you need to spend 1 battleship to protect a few miners and work in a group, while complaining that alliances have tech moons with huge income.. that you cannot get exaclty because they are not lazy as you and use a LOT of people and resources to protect them?
Read your own sentences and perceive how you defeated yourself!
On my view concord is even too fast already. The only thing I thing Would need adjustment is that the criminal countdown should be longer when concord kills you and you should get a bit more drawbacks from being a criminal in high sec. ONLY that. The protection is more than OK nowadays. Just the consequences might be a bit on soft side.
This whining on miner ganking is becoming pathetic really. Want high sec too dangerous? get into a real corp and go low sec..
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1016
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:37:00 -
[106] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote: I see plenty of groups mining in highsec (yes even close to jita), even with hulkageddon going on you do not have much change to become a victim of a suicide gank. There are a lot of ways to minimize risk. Don't make it look as if it is impossible to mine these days.
This is only and exclusively because their Messiah has not ordered to proceed to scorched earth. I was there (in a 'cane) when Bat Country did their job, they systematically wiped whole systems clean.
Don't understimate experienced teamwork PvPers (I play in such groups in other games, I kind of know), they can be totally effective just at the snap of the right fingers. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1675
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:38:00 -
[107] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Tippia wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:And this want meant to be and heavily advertised as sandbox? With butterfly effect showing the lil guy changing the universe in a rifter and everything? He didn't think the risk was unacceptable. It's not about risk. Today I am risking 17 billions in an investment and I am totally OK with it. Investments in EvE are vastly less safe than mining in low sec. But it's about the tedium. Imagine a guy who just wants to / can login for 30 minutes before dinner and wants to dig a rock for his reasons. Now he's supposed to hire a logistic pilot who will actually stick there for 30 minutes? Please sent me the email of such a moron, I want to make him mow my lawn. And at the end his prices will not be competitive at all. First he lost yield because he had to def-tard-tank his ship, then he loses more because he has basically to feed 2 people with the income of 1. This is not about risk, this is a stupid scenario that won't happen. Ah, of course the guy is free to biomass, reroll another pilot with combat stats and go shoot people around. Because he is paying a sub to obey to some unknown pr!cks who decided today you will dance to the right and tomorrow to the left.
Nobody has to do anything. He can mine in whatever thing he wants. The risk tables have simply changed.
One way to mitigate the risk is to pay attention to D-Scan/Local Another way is to mine aligned Another way is to mine aligned with Webs Another way is to mine in a Rokh Another way is to tank your shit Another way is to tank your shit with logi Another way is to mine in a quiet LS system Another way is to mine in Null Another way is to mine in mission pockets Another way is to mine in Grav sites Another way is to mine in a Covetor and expect some losses Another way is to mine in a Wormhole
There are 12 ways to mitigate the risk of getting ganked right there. A Dozen. Off the top of my freaking head. All of them are simple to implement and fairly effective. Miners aren't being persecuted, they're just too stupid and lazy to keep themselves alive.
All of these are options in a game about player agency. You can do whatever you want and so can anyone else. We have been offering up OPTIONS for the past MONTH for players who wish to mine to mine more safely in HS. Every time, the miners CHOOSE to spend time whining that the option takes effort or reduces yield instead of DOING something to reduce the risk of being ganked.
If you call logging in to mine "Tedium;" WHY THE HELL ARE YOU LOGGING IN TO MINE?
Anyway, before you blurf about "I'm not a miner, I just play one on TV so I can talk about it," I really don't give a flying what you do. You've positioned yourself as speaking for the miners, and I'm speaking back at them. Pronouns aimed at you are simply easier.
Suggesting someone has to biomass to train skills other than mining? LOLWUT? Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
680
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:38:00 -
[108] - Quote
I like how many of those titan heavy alliances in that fight are now dead, or effectively dead, because of a coalition that doesn't use caps in fleet fights.
Supers may win fights, but they do not win wars. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:39:00 -
[109] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:You complain that you need to spend 1 battleship to protect a few miners and work in a group
It takes 20+ seconds to target destroyer. Gank is over before BS pilot gets destroyer locked. Ganker warps around happily ganking rest of miners in op. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1016
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:41:00 -
[110] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:
On my view concord is even too fast already. The only thing I thing Would need adjustment is that the criminal countdown should be longer when concord kills you and you should get a bit more drawbacks from being a criminal in high sec. ONLY that. The protection is more than OK nowadays. Just the consequences might be a bit on soft side.
Concord is useless in this "war" and should be optional.
You could use an evolution of today's wardec engine and hire allies. They'd completely replace Concord (i.e. you totally lose Concord defense everywhere) and like Concord they can kill inbound known hostiles who already shot to their protegees.
THIS is sandbox, THIS is player driven, not some stupid NPCs. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1675
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:42:00 -
[111] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:No, but it's fairly easy to get if you have a hundred people working for it. Would take 5+ years. Even if you get lucky with X-Type drops. Velicitia wrote:T2 ships in hisec are just easy targets. Haven't lost any of my cloakies or interceptors yet.
Mining in Null earns about 60m/toon/hr. Ratting in Null earns a little more, but call it the same.
90billion (a fit and rigged Titan) divided by 100 people is million per person. 900 million divided by 60million is 15 hours.
If you can't play more than 15 hours in 5 years, why are you still subbed? Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
18
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:43:00 -
[112] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Yeah, there are tons of small alliances with Supers. There not all that expensive. 60/90 billion is pocket money for everyone.
noot for everyone. But If you join 20 pilots that are not absurdly cowards, you can make that money in 2 months. Either way those peopel risked themselves and worked for those. You want to do neither. that is why you have none |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1675
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:44:00 -
[113] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Seishi Maru wrote:You complain that you need to spend 1 battleship to protect a few miners and work in a group It takes 20+ seconds to target destroyer. Gank is over before BS pilot gets destroyer locked. Ganker warps around happily ganking rest of miners in op.
Battleships are good for things aside from shooting things.
Try something that I suggested that you pooh poohed as ::effort:: Use a Rokh to Rep tanked Hulks. Nobody's going to bother killing a Hulk that takes 12 destroyers or 4 tornadoes to kill. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:48:00 -
[114] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Mining in Null earns about 60m/toon/hr. Ratting in Null earns a little more, but call it the same.
90billion (a fit and rigged Titan) divided by 100 people is million per person. 900 million divided by 60million is 15 hours.
If you can't play more than 15 hours in 5 years, why are you still subbed?
Yes, that's correct IF you don't lose any of your ships there. Just not going to happen. 100 mining/ratting... You will need a lot of systems. Again, not going to happen.
RubyPorto wrote:Try something that I suggested that you pooh poohed as ::effort:: Use a Rokh to Rep tanked Hulks. Nobody's going to bother killing a Hulk that takes 12 destroyers or 4 tornadoes to kill.
Someone will do that eventually for lulz.
And I didn't say it's too much effort. No one is going to sit there in Rokh doing nothing for hours. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1676
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:53:00 -
[115] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Mining in Null earns about 60m/toon/hr. Ratting in Null earns a little more, but call it the same.
90billion (a fit and rigged Titan) divided by 100 people is million per person. 900 million divided by 60million is 15 hours.
If you can't play more than 15 hours in 5 years, why are you still subbed? Yes, that's correct IF you don't lose any of your ships there. Just not going to happen. 100 mining/ratting... You will need a lot of systems. Again, not going to happen.
One system with upgrades can support any number of miners and about 15-20 ratters. With 2* systems and 100 people working together (assume 8 hours a day), you can buy a Titan every other day. Or a super about 4 times a day.
If you don't like 8 hours a day, take 1.5 hours a day, that's a Titan every 10 days or a super every other day (or so).
If you lose a ship in Null while ratting or mining, you're bad and you should feel bad.
*Since the Hidden Belt buff and the Drone poo nerf, mining and ratting have started to approach parity for income, so you could also do this all in one system. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
18
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:57:00 -
[116] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Seishi Maru wrote:You complain that you need to spend 1 battleship to protect a few miners and work in a group It takes 20+ seconds to target destroyer. Gank is over before BS pilot gets destroyer locked. Ganker warps around happily ganking rest of miners in op.
Did you even READ what others have been possting? DO not fit weaposn in Battleship. Fit a rokh with 8 shield transfers. Keep 7 hulks LOCKED while they mine. When destroyers arrive and lock someone you start sending reps. You reduce your income by 14% if you split it evenly with the rokh pilot. Not bad to be almost 100% safe in any 0.7 and above system and be safe in 0.5 from any solo ganker. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1676
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Posted - 2012.05.31 10:57:00 -
[117] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Try something that I suggested that you pooh poohed as ::effort:: Use a Rokh to Rep tanked Hulks. Nobody's going to bother killing a Hulk that takes 12 destroyers or 4 tornadoes to kill. Someone will do that eventually for lulz. And I didn't say it's too much effort. No one is going to sit there in Rokh doing nothing for hours.
Well shoot my bricks and jam my britches, I though you were OK with the *occasional* gank, given that you have logged in to a game that explicitly endorses such behavior. I thought the problem was the constant stream of them from HAG.
Why wouldn't a miner sit in a Healing Bat? It's no less interesting than mining.
Anyway, if you don't like that method of reducing your exposure to risk, pick one of the other 11 that I listed. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
271
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 11:00:00 -
[118] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:And I didn't say it's too much effort. No one is going to sit there in Rokh doing nothing for hours.
What? We are talking about a mining op. Everybody else is sitting there doing nothing for hours!
Fix FW ! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1017
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 11:02:00 -
[119] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nobody has to do anything. He can mine in whatever thing he wants. The risk tables have simply changed.
Sure and part of your suggestions are non functional to mediate between changed risk tables and a decent desire to do menial stuff without committing like a guy whose name begins with "A", in a Mega in Amamake.
Some of the "options" are just impractical. Game needs huge amounts of low ends and your "go mine in WH" won't work on a game wide scale. The "go mine to null" is just getting at 90 degrees and getting butt drilled, because you have to give up and OBEY to the zerg overlords whose agenda is exactly to get more drones to do their work in 0.0. If anything low sec is better. At least there's no saccent overminds telling you what you are MEANT to do in this oh-so-sandbox.
I have been invited in grav sites, they ALWAYS had an average of 3 probers a day get there in a cloakie and then try warp in gank ships. Still it's possibly one of the best choices along with missions pockets. Mission pockets are super for hi sec mining since they have some tasty features.
Neither of the above is viable to someone with some limited amount of time though. Nor is the logistics thing, I am sure that some very trivial math could reveal mining in a battleship is FAR more cost effective and can be done by somebody with limited time.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: All of these are options in a game about player agency. You can do whatever you want and so can anyone else. We have been offering up OPTIONS for the past MONTH for players who wish to mine to mine more safely in HS. Every time, the miners CHOOSE to spend time whining that the option takes effort or reduces yield instead of DOING something to reduce the risk of being ganked.
You TOOK AWAY options for the past month. You imposed YOUR options. Tell things straight. The past options were stupid? OK, but don't say you did not take them away, because you did.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: If you call logging in to mine "Tedium;" WHY THE HELL ARE YOU LOGGING IN TO MINE?
I have no idea, but many people want to pay to do it and nowhere they signed they had to stay online for a minimum amount of hours in order to play hard core enough, organize logistics possibly in another sec 10 jumps away and whatever.
In the end the only options you give is to have to buy 2 accounts (max tank Hulk / battleship hold little so need hauler / need 2 accounts for logistic if you obviously won't find an idiot to sit there repping you...). This is also not a clause to be found when a player subs to EvE.
Basically this grand initiative is adding tedium, RL cost and inconvenience. That's some great achievement. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
18
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Posted - 2012.05.31 11:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:[quote=RubyPorto]
And I didn't say it's too much effort. No one is going to sit there in Rokh doing nothing for hours.
Can you realize that people DO that? And that is why they have titans and stuff like that? And You never even tied any of those things because you would know that you can mine and rat in null sec for weeks without loosing a single ship. Jsut use your brains.
You can get into worm space to make isk, you can go into a not populated lwo sec and mine in hidden belts for a reasoanble income and with more safety than high sec. You have option.. you have the sand.. but you decided that only way you want the sand is a massive ammount of it shoved in all your orifices and then complain that is not fun.
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