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Bunnie Hop
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
228
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:12:00 -
[181] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Bunnie Hop wrote:Natsett Amuinn wrote:lavinia corelia wrote:my two cents: instead of banning hulks from high sec, just make low sec ore REALLY much more profitabile than low sec ore and you will have BOTH a good number of gank targets for OMFGPWNZRZ carebears killers AND the possibility to adopt that "total safety" in high sec mining. Wouldn't matter. There is nothing CCP can do to drive people to low sec to mine. No amount of "making it more profitable" will help. Well, maybe if the drastically reduced the size of belts in hi-sec so that people would have to go to low sec in order to mine at all. I think if they reduced the belts it would drive people away, not into low sec. Those who wish to be in low sec are there already. Your first line of thought is right on though, nothing CCP can do will drive high seccers into low sec. Yeah, the second part was really just a kind of afterthough. People who don't want to go to low sec don't go because they don't want to increase their chances of encountering conflict with another player, otherwise known as pvp. Unfortunetly, to many of these people also think that hi sec means they don't have to do any pvp. Personally, I think that CCP needs to create a sticky thread at the top of GD that straight out says that ganking in hi sec is a part of the game that will always be there, and that they won't remove it due to the overal structure of EVE being a game were you're expected to get your ship blown up. Then everytime someone comes to the forums to cry about pvp happening, people would need only to point them in the direction of that sticky.
If they just made the hulks a bit more durable so it took tornadoes or the like to gank them instead of toy destroyers I think it would end most of the anti gank threads. You are right, nowhere is safe nor should it be, but I believe it takes too little effort to gank. Personally I fly the Rattlesnake and the Nighthawk most of the time when missioning, or the scythe or basilisk for support, ships not so easily ganked just because I know ganking can happen at any moment. |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:12:00 -
[182] - Quote
terrly bronks wrote:TigerXtrm wrote:Because the PVPers somehow think they have the right to tell other people how to play a sandbox game. Notice that it's only PVPers bitching and that the carebears actually very rarely complain about anything (unless they got ganked in hi-sec).
More so I think the majority of these 'PVPers' that complain found out that they are worthless in any major battle and just want some easy targets in low-sec so they can at least kill something. But one does not simply kill a miner alone in hi-sec so they whine and ***** here :D.
As for the Goons trying to mess with hi-sec, it's just in their interest to kill as many Hulks as possible because they earn massive amounts of money for each one that gets replaced. It's business, nothing more. 110 % this for sure pvp'ers need to stay in 0.0 I think the problem is is it is to easy now to hold space almost takes an act of god to to take sov away CCP needs to go back to the old way :) kill the pos's get sov :) put up more pos's get sov lol they took it to far and now its just high sec space without gank sec loss lol
And yet people insist that no one wants to make hi sec 100% safe?
Looks like that's exactly what this individual is asking for.
The simplest solution? If you don't like it, don't play. |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:14:00 -
[183] - Quote
Bunnie Hop wrote:Natsett Amuinn wrote:Bunnie Hop wrote:Natsett Amuinn wrote:lavinia corelia wrote:my two cents: instead of banning hulks from high sec, just make low sec ore REALLY much more profitabile than low sec ore and you will have BOTH a good number of gank targets for OMFGPWNZRZ carebears killers AND the possibility to adopt that "total safety" in high sec mining. Wouldn't matter. There is nothing CCP can do to drive people to low sec to mine. No amount of "making it more profitable" will help. Well, maybe if the drastically reduced the size of belts in hi-sec so that people would have to go to low sec in order to mine at all. I think if they reduced the belts it would drive people away, not into low sec. Those who wish to be in low sec are there already. Your first line of thought is right on though, nothing CCP can do will drive high seccers into low sec. Yeah, the second part was really just a kind of afterthough. People who don't want to go to low sec don't go because they don't want to increase their chances of encountering conflict with another player, otherwise known as pvp. Unfortunetly, to many of these people also think that hi sec means they don't have to do any pvp. Personally, I think that CCP needs to create a sticky thread at the top of GD that straight out says that ganking in hi sec is a part of the game that will always be there, and that they won't remove it due to the overal structure of EVE being a game were you're expected to get your ship blown up. Then everytime someone comes to the forums to cry about pvp happening, people would need only to point them in the direction of that sticky. If they just made the hulks a bit more durable so it took tornadoes or the like to gank them instead of toy destroyers I think it would end most of the anti gank threads. You are right, nowhere is safe nor should it be, but I believe it takes too little effort to gank. Personally I fly the Rattlesnake and the Nighthawk most of the time when missioning, or the scythe or basilisk for support, ships not so easily ganked just because I know ganking can happing at any moment.
Is it profitable to suicide gank a hulk?
Goon payout aside. If I suicide ganked a hulk, would it make me profit after I replace the ship and all it's fittings I had to lose in order to do so? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
88
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:16:00 -
[184] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Alternatively, the old adage with the two campers and the bear applies. You don't have to outrun the bear - you just have to outrun the other camper.
I don't really "do" Hulkageddon. I have occasionally ganked a hulk in high sec here and there, mostly for funsies. I am largely a solo player, though, so what I typically do is scout potential targets with a passive targeter and a ship scanner, then go after only the hulks I'm sure I can break alone.
The dude with the tank fit? He gets left alone, because one system over there's a guy sitting in a belt with a full rack of mining laser upgrades and not a mid-slot module in sight.
So at least in the case of the solo-ganker, you don't really have to tank the ganker - you just have to outtank the other Hulks. :D
ROFL, very nice.
i've never suicide ganked (or mined for that matter), but I can see why lots of people like doing it. I am more impressed by the people who gank mission runners in pimp fit ships (a while back I noticed killmails on eve-kill by a guy killing tengus with an arty apoc or something, that was so cool lol).
I mainly intersested in this issue (and high sec issues in general) because i've always been fascinated by how people try to justify their unjustifiable actions and posistions in the face of obvious facts to the contrary. The shear amount of logical fallacies coming from that last guy you were arguing with (the "I shouldn't have to do that" guy) was beyond entertaining lol.
It's obvious that the high sec people whinning on the forums are slef interested people who want to have their cake (play eve and interact with other players via selling minerals or shooting npcs for bounties) and eat it too (play in perfect safety without risk of loss). I've just never seen a single one of them admit it. |
loki energon
Voodoo Children Workers Trade Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:19:00 -
[185] - Quote
Ticarus Hellbrandt wrote:Eve is a pvp game, it doesnt do the economy any good having half the population sitting about running missions and never being blown up in years of playing.
really? ive never seen that ANYWHERE. real sandbox games have places where dumba**es get killed for being stupid, and places where a**holes get smacked down for for being a**holes.. this is true in eve as well, no need for everything to be PVP. kill em all. |
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:19:00 -
[186] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote: Mission runners don't get ganked? Tell that to Solarius.
highsec mission runners? I'd say the percentage is fairly low if they do. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
328
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:20:00 -
[187] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:Alternatively, the old adage with the two campers and the bear applies. You don't have to outrun the bear - you just have to outrun the other camper.
I don't really "do" Hulkageddon. I have occasionally ganked a hulk in high sec here and there, mostly for funsies. I am largely a solo player, though, so what I typically do is scout potential targets with a passive targeter and a ship scanner, then go after only the hulks I'm sure I can break alone.
The dude with the tank fit? He gets left alone, because one system over there's a guy sitting in a belt with a full rack of mining laser upgrades and not a mid-slot module in sight.
So at least in the case of the solo-ganker, you don't really have to tank the ganker - you just have to outtank the other Hulks. :D It's obvious that the high sec people whinning on the forums are slef interested people who want to have their cake (play eve and interact with other players via selling minerals or shooting npcs for bounties) and eat it too (play in perfect safety without risk of loss). I've just never seen a single one of them admit it.
No its not obvious
Tal
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Ammit Thoth
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:20:00 -
[188] - Quote
6 years of this same argument is getting rather old tbh
Most of the people whining about this won't even be here in 2 years regardless of hulkageddon, high sec ganking, etc...
So, by all means continue to QQ like so many before you, for changes that time and time again CCP has stated they will not make.
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baltec1
1313
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:21:00 -
[189] - Quote
Its not that we hate high sec players, its just that they make it so easy for us. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
740
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:28:00 -
[190] - Quote
Andoria Thara wrote:Haulie Berry wrote: Mission runners don't get ganked? Tell that to Solarius.
highsec mission runners? I'd say the percentage is fairly low if they do. Pretty easy kills, actually, since you always know exactly where the resist hole is. All you have to do is deal enough damage to break their tank and let the rats do the rest. Used to be an issue more than hullk ganking was.
Never as widespread as hulk ganking, but mission runners were never as obnoxious about wanting to be left alone either. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
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Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:38:00 -
[191] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote: Never as widespread as hulk ganking, but mission runners were never as obnoxious about wanting to be left alone either.
Thank you.
I'd rather hear that then all of these holier than though speeches about how players need to come together to squash the common enemy who threatens to ruin eve forever and blah blah yadda yadda.
Gankers gonna gank, who cares what your excuse is to help you sleep better at night, just do it. |
baltec1
1313
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:40:00 -
[192] - Quote
Andoria Thara wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote: Never as widespread as hulk ganking, but mission runners were never as obnoxious about wanting to be left alone either.
Thank you. I'd rather hear that then all of these holier than though speeches about how players need to come together to squash the common enemy who threatens to ruin eve forever and blah blah yadda yadda. Gankers gonna gank, who cares what your excuse is to help you sleep better at night, just do it.
Mission tengu can be alpha'd upon undocking if they dont turn on their hardeners |
Bunnie Hop
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
228
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:44:00 -
[193] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Andoria Thara wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote: Never as widespread as hulk ganking, but mission runners were never as obnoxious about wanting to be left alone either.
Thank you. I'd rather hear that then all of these holier than though speeches about how players need to come together to squash the common enemy who threatens to ruin eve forever and blah blah yadda yadda. Gankers gonna gank, who cares what your excuse is to help you sleep better at night, just do it. Mission tengu can be alpha'd upon undocking if they dont turn on their hardeners
Which is why I sold my mission Tengu and trained up the Nighthawk, not as much dps but pretty nice tank against gankers. |
Shea Valerien
House of Valerien
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:49:00 -
[194] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Because most of them want to change EvE Online into a Theme Park MMO.
Um. No, they don't. I live in hi-sec and have zero interest into turning it into a Theme Park MMO. Most of the folks I engage with have zero interest in turning it into a Theme Park MMO. I came here specifically to get away from Theme Park MMOs (blech). So here's one hi-sec'er who will be fighting tooth and nail to keep Eve dangerous. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1563
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:50:00 -
[195] - Quote
People who cannot adapt have a hatred of those who can.
Highsec dwellers have adapted to the kill-everything-that-moves tendencies of lowsec and nullsec by not going there. There is also the "life" of low and null to consider hence that is also a measure of adaptation by not joining their corporations.
Note that highsec dweller and carebear are not the same thing. There are a lot of players who base out of high sec and make forays into low and null for small fleet engagement and one-on-one, and there are also a lot of highsec mercenary groups handling war declarations and such related matters.
To couch the subject as "highsec = carebear" is incorrect, and out into deep null beyond the Great Wall of Carebear (bubble camps and gank pipelines) there are carebears who get their panties in a very impressive wad when a "non-blue" arrives in their system and forces them (or their bots) to dock up without even so much as a peep on their intel channels. |
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 18:59:00 -
[196] - Quote
meh, it's all just propaganda 101, demonizing the enemy/competition.
I'm pretty sure some of the head honchos in the major alliances have read up on psychological warfare tactics as well. No doubt that would come in handy when dealing with so many players.
Eventually, the enemy will just quit logging in, because they're not having fun anymore. That's the whole point. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
740
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:07:00 -
[197] - Quote
Andoria Thara wrote:Eventually, the enemy will just quit logging in, because they're not having fun anymore. That's the whole point. Thats how GSF wins wars without winning fights Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Khari Amoensis
ex 247 v. 01
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:30:00 -
[198] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Because this is a PVP game, and most of the current crop of highseccers think they should be safe.
I was under the assumption EVE was a sandbox - as in do as you want while others do as they want. I don't mind hi-sec not being safe. It definitely wasn't when I started and I never expected it to be.
Had my share of trouble, rode the wave and c'est la vie. No problem with that especially since I got podded in my first 2 months of playing EVE.
But from sandbox game to PVP game, that's a rather long way to go. I'm fine with EVE being a PVP-centric game. But the point of EVE is that everybody can do something that would fit his/her play-style without something specific being enforced to anybody.
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Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:35:00 -
[199] - Quote
Khari Amoensis wrote: But from sandbox game to PVP game, that's a rather long way to go. I'm fine with EVE being a PVP-centric game. But the point of EVE is that everybody can do something that would fit his/her play-style without something specific being enforced to anybody.
Good point. If this was just a "PVP game", we wouln't have PVE missions at all.
Unless CCP plans on completely removing PvE in the future. |
Haulie Berry
194
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:36:00 -
[200] - Quote
Khari Amoensis wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Because this is a PVP game, and most of the current crop of highseccers think they should be safe. I was under the assumption EVE was a sandbox - as in do as you want while others do as they want.
You CAN do what you want while others do what they want. Sometimes what others want is to shoot you in the face while you're doing what you want.
Quote:But from sandbox game to PVP game, that's a rather long way to go. I'm fine with EVE being a PVP-centric game. But the point of EVE is that everybody can do something that would fit his/her play-style without something specific being enforced to anybody.
What you're describing is more of a "walled garden" than a sandbox. The nature of a sandbox is that the game mechanics allow you to do what you want - that doesn't extend to the other players in the sandbox. They're another matter entirely. |
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Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
740
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:37:00 -
[201] - Quote
Khari Amoensis wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Because this is a PVP game, and most of the current crop of highseccers think they should be safe. I was under the assumption EVE was a sandbox - as in do as you want while others do as they want. I don't mind hi-sec not being safe. It definitely wasn't when I started and I never expected it to be. Had my share of trouble, rode the wave and c'est la vie. No problem with that especially since I got podded in my first 2 months of playing EVE. But from sandbox game to PVP game, that's a rather long way to go. I'm fine with EVE being a PVP-centric game. But the point of EVE is that everybody can do something that would fit his/her play-style without something specific being enforced to anybody. Specifically, its a PVP sandbox.
Everything you do can be seen as a form of pvp, and that was a design principle behind the game(as stated in old interviews and such). The ONLY exception I can see is missions, and I saw it pointed out that missions make war on everyone else in the form of devaluing our money by creating more.
I am not telling you that you have to change your habits, but you have to accept that everything you do in EVE is a form of PVP if you want to not become hopelessly embittered by this game. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:41:00 -
[202] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote: I am not telling you that you have to change your habits, but you have to accept that everything you do in EVE is a form of PVP if you want to not become hopelessly embittered by this game.
Everything and anything can be considered PvP. Even buying flowers for your girl from the local market, the local market stole the business of the regional florist.
People even PvP over attention of the opposite sex, happens all the time.
It's a cut-throat world out there, and eve does a pretty good job at mimicking it. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
740
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 19:44:00 -
[203] - Quote
Andoria Thara wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote: I am not telling you that you have to change your habits, but you have to accept that everything you do in EVE is a form of PVP if you want to not become hopelessly embittered by this game.
Everything and anything can be considered PvP. Even buying flowers for your girl from the local market, the local market stole the business of the regional florist. People even PvP over attention of the opposite sex, happens all the time. It's a cut-throat world out there, and eve does a pretty good job at mimicking it. This is why EVE is great, but in the mainstream MMOs, there ARE things you can do that are not in any way PVP.
Unless you consider progression guilds driving power creep as PVP, anyway. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Virgil Travis
GWA Corp Unified Church of the Unobligated
303
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:02:00 -
[204] - Quote
terrly bronks wrote:pvp'ers need to stay in 0.0
And now you're telling people where they can pvp, and you've obviously never heard of low sec at all have you? Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method |
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
63
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:03:00 -
[205] - Quote
There is so much 'I am elite because I pvp in my pixel spaceship' in here its actually giving me gas.
Everything in this game is pvp, even mining, even mission running, everyone is competing with someone on some level. Yet, just lately, the nullsec residents seem mad about something, so mad in fact, they are paying for people to gank in highsec outside of the normal operating window of hulkageddon.
Between watching the whines from highsec players, and seeing the nullsec pilots blabber on about ganking being the only way to remove miners from the game while trying desperately to not drop their juicebox's into their fathers laps, I have started to get annoyed at this to and fro.
Highsec guys - Stop mining in hulks or anything expensive, don't whine if you die, it happens. The extended hulkageddon wont last forever, and if it does then just do something else. At the very least, start stockpiling stuff, stop putting stuff into markets, starve the system. Just by all thats been made holey, please stop whining.
Nullsec guys- You are not fooling anybody, there is no 'elite pvp' in null only blobs, so why you think bringing your bull to highsec for the long term is a good idea for the game is frankly idiotic, its old, you're old, your alliances need to reset the neighbours up there in 'lawless blue null' rather than collectively hiding in each others underpants while screaming bloody murder through the zipper at carebears, and yeah you guys dont look very tough with a dong draped over one ear. Its not the bears fault you guys are frustrated and unfullfilled, your leaders can snap their fingers and make you do anything they want for their amusment, you guys are weak, easily manipulated and without direction.
Both sides are idiots imho, carebears cry when their ship is killed, pvp'rs cry when miners complain about it. |
Khari Amoensis
ex 247 v. 01
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:08:00 -
[206] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Specifically, its a PVP sandbox.
Everything you do can be seen as a form of pvp, and that was a design principle behind the game(as stated in old interviews and such). The ONLY exception I can see is missions, and I saw it pointed out that missions make war on everyone else in the form of devaluing our money by creating more.
I am not telling you that you have to change your habits, but you have to accept that everything you do in EVE is a form of PVP if you want to not become hopelessly embittered by this game.
The point I was trying to make is that EVE is not a PVP game. Yes, it is PVP-centric, but it is not a PVP game even though the PVP aspect is prevalent. That was all.
I absolutely have no problem with the amount of PVP currently present in the game. Hisec is actually quite safe as long as you're not being silly and especially as long as you don't **** off the wrong crowd.
At some point in the past I got my ship blown up because I ended up by curiosity in .4 from really a backwater system as in the .4 system I stepped into should have theoretically been empty. After I did my best to defend myself, the guy told me what I was doing wrong and even offered to contract me a nice little cruiser as a replacement for the exact type I lost.
Woe me! The contract was in a .4 system again, but the nooblet in me didn't figure that out until I found myself podded.
Still, it didn't bother me at all. That was the only time I got killed and it was mostly because I was to new/stupid to figure out what I was supposed to do.
So, bottom line is that I don't get fussed at all about how much PVP is in this game, but it somewhat annoys me that people label EVE as a PVP game. I mean space is big, really big. And a half-decent pilot can sill make a good living if he ain't having a turnip for a brain and not making himself an easy target.
Also, mining needs to be re-vamped to make it more of a cooperative effort and definitely more engaging. We already have at least half the system in place with quite a load of lvl4 missions having huge roid field. That needs to be a tad more dynamic than clearing a mission and having people afk while they empty the roids. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
740
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:10:00 -
[207] - Quote
Information Agent wrote:There is so much 'I am elite because I pvp in my pixel spaceship' in here its actually giving me gas.
Everything in this game is pvp, even mining, even mission running, everyone is competing with someone on some level. Yet, just lately, the nullsec residents seem mad about something, so mad in fact, they are paying for people to gank in highsec outside of the normal operating window of hulkageddon.
Between watching the whines from highsec players, and seeing the nullsec pilots blabber on about ganking being the only way to remove miners from the game while trying desperately to not drop their juicebox's into their fathers laps, I have started to get annoyed at this to and fro.
Highsec guys - Stop mining in hulks or anything expensive, don't whine if you die, it happens. The extended hulkageddon wont last forever, and if it does then just do something else. At the very least, start stockpiling stuff, stop putting stuff into markets, starve the system. Just by all thats been made holey, please stop whining.
Nullsec guys- You are not fooling anybody, there is no 'elite pvp' in null only blobs, so why you think bringing your bull to highsec for the long term is a good idea for the game is frankly idiotic, its old, you're old, your alliances need to reset the neighbours up there is 'lawless blue null' rather than collectively hiding in each others underpants while screaming bloody murder through the zipper at carebears, and yeah you guys dont look very tough with a dong draped over one ear. Its not the bears fault you guys are frustrated and unfullfilled, your leaders can snap their fingers and make you do anything they want for their amusment, you guys are weak, easily manipulated and without direction.
Both sides are idiots imho, carebears cry when their ship is killed, pvp'rs cry when miners complain about it. Wow, u mad bro.
Also, I was involved in actually taking sov less than a month ago. Whats happening now is blowing off steam for alot of the troops. You know, some R&R between business? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Khari Amoensis
ex 247 v. 01
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:11:00 -
[208] - Quote
Virgil Travis wrote:terrly bronks wrote:pvp'ers need to stay in 0.0 And now you're telling people where they can pvp, and you've obviously never heard of low sec at all have you?
Banning pvp-ers from hisec would be a huge mistake. I am a great believer in all things done with moderation. |
Little Brat
Four Gun
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:13:00 -
[209] - Quote
x It is the rule in war, if ten times the enemy's strength, surround them; if five times, attack them; if double, be able to divide them; if equal, engage them; if fewer, be able to evade them; if weaker, be able to avoid them. Sun Tzu, 6th Century BC-á |
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
63
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 20:15:00 -
[210] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote: Wow, u mad bro.
Also, I was involved in actually taking sov less than a month ago. Whats happening now is blowing off steam for alot of the troops. You know, some R&R between business?
Actually, yeah I'm mad as hell at pretty much everyone on all sides in this hulkageddon crap. :)
I know you said 'taking sov' as if to mean you were actively engaging a force of skilled pvp'rs with similar numbers, but what you should have said was "We were going into empty systems and structure grinding while unopposed."
The troops shouldn't really have too much steam collected yet, its not like they've actually had to htfu for anything lately is it. :) |
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