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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
751
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Posted - 2012.06.01 18:33:00 -
[31] - Quote
Miss Raven Bandit wrote: PL without a doubt were the Main Alliance of their two entries and fell foul of the stacking the dec rule yet the Main alliance was not removed.
Nobody seems to understand that Hydra wasn't removed because of the B team rule. The B team rule allows the A team to continue (its plainly spelled out in the rules) unless the offense is very grave (3-4 teams ect).
Hydra was removed for colluding with Outbreak.
You can say we can't guess their intent, but we don't have to guess their intent, they did the exact same thing, and I do mean the EXACT same thing last year when they colluded to win the tournament. Last year that was legal, this year it isn't. Their emails were purposely vague, if they had said "Can we join a single corp on the test server for testing", the answer undoubtedly would have been a resounding NO, something they should have simply known to be the case after a rule was specifically put in because of them and what they did last year.
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Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
6
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Posted - 2012.06.01 19:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
I've said it before and I'll say it again. You know what...
I've no real beef with Hydra or Outbreak.
Last year two amazing teams played the game (in and out) well to succeed. They could have been defeated at any point but they weren't thanks to the sheer amount of effort they put in on and off the field. They deserved their spots. However, they both got to the final and left egg on everyone's face. The rules were changed because of it (much like the membership time rules were changed because of something I did, it's called evolution mates) I don't blame CCP for having a grudge, in fact, they were pretty tolerant. This year people know what is up and they have done a reverse A&B team and collaborated to the max on SISI. This, in itself might not be an issue but to be honest...
It was pretty dumb. They got caught out and given their history they got punished. They should have at least waiting out for confirmed positions before pulling off this serious testing, after all, we've still got four weeks to practice.
The tournament will suffer for not having two of the best teams out there playing in it but I think it will also benefit from not having two of the best teams out there in it.
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Kail Toronus
Appetite 4 Destruction
1
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Posted - 2012.06.01 19:12:00 -
[33] - Quote
What is the difference between two teams joining a dummy corp on a test server to practice compared to two teams doing a scrimmage against each other for the sake of practice, other than the "tag" associated with the pilots?
I'm not picking sides here and I could care less what the outcome is/was I'm just honestly asking for a logical response, call it a clarification if you must, to what was really done "wrong".
I am an avid fan of the AT's, I've watched them every year and it is one of the things that keeps me coming back to Eve time and time again. I was one of the outraged players last year because of the final match, it pissed me off to no end. However, I see no way to truly prevent a repeat of what was done last year if the players choose to make it happen.
Each team knows who they are about to fight, and its a good bet they know who the "key" people are on that team. Quick tells and agreements can be made at any given moment throughout the tournament. We've seen offers to self-destruct to give points to a team in the middle of the tournament with no declaration that doing so would result in being remove from the tournament.
Allen Iverson was spot on when he said "we're talking about practice, practice."
All professional teams have scrimmages even before Pre-Season teams will get together and do half-day workouts to ready themselves for the real thing.
Varsity teams play against JV teams as a warm up and to provide experience for the JV team.
So, again I ask, what does it matter if on a dummy server two known Alliances were practicing against one another under the same tag? If two of the Alliances who got into the tournament run into one another on Tranquility in null sec do they have to leave each other alone from now until the Tournament is over to avoid the same fate? Did Hydra/Outbreak join to the same "team" on Tranquility???
Hydra and Outbreak are two of the best, if not THE best when it comes to the AT. Anyone who competes in ANYTHING will tell you the only way to get better is to compete against the best to hone your skills. I am not a fan of Hydra or Outbreak and don't care that they were removed, I just think the reasoning behind their removal is not only illogical, but actually takes away from the longevity of the tournament because in a way CCP is saying "don't practice, don't get better"... because as already stated, there is no way for CCP to prevent two random teams from making a last second private deal to throw a match.
I hope the other teams who have made it into the Tournament bring a better peformance than they have in the past because as much as I hated last years final match, the play by Hydra and Outbreak leading up to that match were some of the best matches. |
Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
89
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Posted - 2012.06.01 19:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Hydra was removed for colluding with Outbreak.
And you fail to understand the difference between colluding on TQ and cooperating to train on testserver. Last year they followed the rules. We could also have expected them to follow them this year. But hurt feelings made that point taken out of the equation |
ScoRpS
0utbreak Outbreak.
43
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Posted - 2012.06.01 19:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
The guys at Outbreak get it. We screwed up and just hope that we get a chance to re-enter next year.
Sorry to CCP and all the tournament fans for screwing up and we will endeavour if given the chance to make ammends in 2013 and in the mean time good luck to all in the tournament this year.
Please stop posting on behalf of 0utbreak. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
751
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Posted - 2012.06.01 20:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cody Zamorah wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Hydra was removed for colluding with Outbreak.
And you fail to understand the difference between colluding on TQ and cooperating to train on testserver. Last year they followed the rules. We could also have expected them to follow them this year. But hurt feelings made that point taken out of the equation
It seems you don't understand the concept behind the word colluding:
Quote:Collusion is an agreement between two or more persons, sometimes illegal and therefore secretive, to limit open competition by deceiving, misleading, or defrauding others of their legal rights, or to obtain an objective forbidden by law typically by defrauding or gaining an unfair advantage. It is an agreement among firms to divide the market, set prices, or limit production. It can involve "wage fixing, kickbacks, or misrepresenting the independence of the relationship between the colluding parties". In legal terms, all acts affected by collusion are considered void.
Their attempt to act as a single team on the test server was collusion, they shared intel, fits, tactics, strategies, and yes, they were within the rules last year, however, this year, repeating those same actions resulted in a rules violation because doing what they did last year was against the rules this year.
The rule was basically in effect from the day it was announced, everybody knew that hence all the petitions and questions about it, thus carrying on with what they did last year, which was known to be collusion after the fact, was dumb. It applies to the teams both in and out of game, if you get caught breaking it, you're out, end of discussion. They did it on SiSi, after the rule was announced, which resulted in the expected violation.
You cannot blame anybody but Hydra and Outbreak as the gentleman above me admits, they know what they did wrong, I'm sure next year they'll do the things that need to be done to be in the tournament. |
Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
89
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Posted - 2012.06.01 21:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
ScoRpS. I am not posting on behalf of Outbreak or Hydra. I am posting because this was clearly very bad decision making due to smokescreen rules and even worse communication.
There where a lot of people just sit back and accept that I won't. Because if we accept it now we might accept the same crap another time even easier. |
Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
89
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Posted - 2012.06.01 21:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Their attempt to act as a single team on the test server was collusion, they shared intel, fits, tactics, strategies, and yes, they were within the rules last year, however, this year, repeating those same actions resulted in a rules violation because doing what they did last year was against the rules this year.
They didn't train secretivly, they petitioned and were open for dialogue with the AT team about how and why. So the secretive part already get's tossed out of the window. If CCP had simply communicated and said " Your setup of training would break rules and as such you have the choice, continue and be kicked from the AT or find a way to train against eachother within our rules. (you know, the vague ones which leave enough room to be interprited any way suitable)
They were within the rules last year and the thing with EVE is that people always look howfar rules can be bend to their needs or desires. Same was for Hydra and Outbreak. This doesn't have to mean they now all of a sudden wanted to break the rules this year. Since there were none broken last year I would assume they didn't want to break rules then so they weren't going to break any this year.
They got dealt a harsher hand than RvB purely based on the fact that last year they did something within the rules what however pissed a lot of people off. With RvB there was clear communication about how to at the very least get both sides into the AT by "adjusting" the rules. Same could have been done for Hydra/Outbreak, but CCP decided not to. And the conclusion is that this is soley based on hurt feelings over last year.
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
751
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Posted - 2012.06.01 22:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cody Zamorah wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Their attempt to act as a single team on the test server was collusion, they shared intel, fits, tactics, strategies, and yes, they were within the rules last year, however, this year, repeating those same actions resulted in a rules violation because doing what they did last year was against the rules this year.
They didn't train secretivly, they petitioned and were open for dialogue with the AT team about how and why. So the secretive part already get's tossed out of the window. If CCP had simply communicated and said " Your setup of training would break rules and as such you have the choice, continue and be kicked from the AT or find a way to train against eachother within our rules. (you know, the vague ones which leave enough room to be interprited any way suitable) They were within the rules last year and the thing with EVE is that people always look howfar rules can be bend to their needs or desires. Same was for Hydra and Outbreak. This doesn't have to mean they now all of a sudden wanted to break the rules this year. Since there were none broken last year I would assume they didn't want to break rules then so they weren't going to break any this year. They got dealt a harsher hand than RvB purely based on the fact that last year they did something within the rules what however pissed a lot of people off. With RvB there was clear communication about how to at the very least get both sides into the AT by "adjusting" the rules. Same could have been done for Hydra/Outbreak, but CCP decided not to. And the conclusion is that this is soley based on hurt feelings over last year.
Find me where anybody insinuated that they trained secretly.
If you were going to rob a bank, got the guns, got the get away car, got IN the car and started the engine, would you expect the police to tell you that what you're doing is wrong before you left??
Can you apply your logic to ANY OTHER SPORTING EVENT OR SCENARIO LIKE THAT AT ALL and expect the officials to go out of their way to tell you that something you're doing thats blatantly against the rules is against the rules?
They should have simply known that CCP were mad at them (everybody knew CCP was mad at them) and carried the burden of playing it safe on their own.
I cannot fathom how you expect somebody to hand hold them and make sure they don't break rules that were obviously created specifically because of what they did, they're grown ass men, they're responsible for their own actions. |
Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 22:17:00 -
[40] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: If you were going to rob a bank, got the guns, got the get away car, got IN the car and started the engine, would you expect the police to tell you that what you're doing is wrong before you left??
Can you apply your logic to ANY OTHER SPORTING EVENT OR SCENARIO LIKE THAT AT ALL and expect the officials to go out of their way to tell you that something you're doing thats blatantly against the rules is against the rules?
They should have simply known that CCP were mad at them (everybody knew CCP was mad at them) and carried the burden of playing it safe on their own.
I cannot fathom how you expect somebody to hand hold them and make sure they don't break rules that were obviously created specifically because of what they did, they're grown ass men, they're responsible for their own actions.
Ah yes, the real and absurd real life analogies which are normally not to be drawn into EVE are spouted up to state a case which isn't there.
Let's find some real life analogies out of sports then. I take it you are familiar with soccer. A sport well known in Europe. Soon there will be European Championships. And there are actually countries which train versus soccerteams from other countries. I am not talking about Italy training versus Greece, but more like for example Netherlands training versus Bayern Munchen.
Now for Bayern Munchen they also have players in the field which are also part of the dutch national team. If a player or player plays then, is he colluding? Because he knows both teams very well and has certain feelings for both teams. One provides his income and the other provides him with national glory. So for arguements sake in your world we best remove a player in such a situation completely since there MIGHT be a chance of collusion.
And even if they knew and were fully aware CCP were mad at them, shouldn't they still be expecting similar treatment as people who CCP weren't mad at? Doesn't that prove the point actually that the bar which people have to pass get's adjusted by the mere feelings CCP has to a certain entity or individual? This would set a dangerous prescedence since biased ruling always has a startingpoint.
CCP also is build out of grown ass men and women, aren't they resonsible for their actions and inactions in the same way too then? |
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
751
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Posted - 2012.06.02 00:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Cody Zamorah wrote:
And even if they knew and were fully aware CCP were mad at them, shouldn't they still be expecting similar treatment as people who CCP weren't mad at?
No, why would you ever expect they would? The name of the man that outed the cheating Dev is still to this day banned, you can't even type it out, what in the hell ever gave you the impression that you would or even should be fairly treated?
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Duncan Tanner
Genos Occidere
245
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Posted - 2012.06.02 01:47:00 -
[42] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:what in the hell ever gave you the impression that you would or even should be fairly treated?
I'm glad we got to this point.
As long as it's clear to everyone what this is actually about. - |
Karbox Delacroix
Emo Rage Quit
48
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Posted - 2012.06.02 03:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Duncan Tanner wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:what in the hell ever gave you the impression that you would or even should be fairly treated?
I'm glad we got to this point. As long as it's clear to everyone what this is actually about.
It is funny that Grath accuses everyone else of being :mad: when he so gleefully abandons basic principles like fair treatment. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
751
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Posted - 2012.06.02 09:26:00 -
[44] - Quote
Karbox Delacroix wrote:Duncan Tanner wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:what in the hell ever gave you the impression that you would or even should be fairly treated?
I'm glad we got to this point. As long as it's clear to everyone what this is actually about. It is funny that Grath accuses everyone else of being :mad: when he so gleefully abandons basic principles like fair treatment.
This may shock you, but you will find in life that some things just aren't fair, even things you pay for, just aren't fair.
Feel free to hold your breath and stomp your feet each time you find one, but in the end none of it will be any more or less fair than it was when you started.
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Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
89
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Posted - 2012.06.02 09:53:00 -
[45] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Cody Zamorah wrote:
And even if they knew and were fully aware CCP were mad at them, shouldn't they still be expecting similar treatment as people who CCP weren't mad at?
No, why would you ever expect they would? The name of the man that outed the cheating Dev is still to this day banned, you can't even type it out, what in the hell ever gave you the impression that you would or even should be fairly treated?
And that, my dear Grath, is the slight difference between us. There where you just open your mouth and just swallow whatever get's served I will question what is being served and refuse the chunks which aren't my taste or not my order.
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Cody Zamorah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
89
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Posted - 2012.06.02 09:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: This may shock you, but you will find in life that some things just aren't fair, even things you pay for, just aren't fair.
Feel free to hold your breath and stomp your feet each time you find one, but in the end none of it will be any more or less fair than it was when you started.
I remember a while ago how you boasted about howmuch PL was always working on the edge of what was allowed.
Aren't you just all cheery now that this vague rule wasn't in place back then.
And yes, I am actually free to stomp my feet and shout out whenever I see injustice. Isn't that just great? It's something actually worth treasuring instead of squandering it away out of lazyness.
If fighting for fair treatment is a bad thing then I love doing bad things. And I am actually very proud of doing the bad thing then.
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Randomize All
State War Academy Caldari State
16
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Posted - 2012.06.02 10:55:00 -
[47] - Quote
OlRotGut wrote:They broke the rules that CCP created for the tournament. tough sh*t. move on.
Ahhh, but they didn't. Imagine that for one moment. Imagine if Sreegs had all the evidence available to him and he simply told a lie instead of the truth about who is who?
Just imagine that for one moment. Because I know 50 entirely separate individuals who have had to live in that reality for the last two weeks. |
Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
98
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Posted - 2012.06.02 11:40:00 -
[48] - Quote
Grath is very good at digging holes for himself.
Duncan Tanner wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:what in the hell ever gave you the impression that you would or even should be fairly treated?
I'm glad we got to this point. As long as it's clear to everyone what this is actually about.
So very accurate. "We discussed forming 1 (ONE) corporation to make these training in wormholes possible; if we wouldnt merge, 4th would have been forced to spend days and days to setup their own pos, to do this." 2 separate teams considered doing the same thing HYDRA & Outbreak did - how can you justify banning 2 teams who thought it was within the rules? |
Hannah Ganktannah
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.06.02 13:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:This is getting so pathetic. The only pathetic thing here is you and DARIUS JOHNSON |
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