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Tara Moss
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Posted - 2009.08.29 06:04:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Kara Sharalien posting in a thread where no one actually bothered to watch the OP's video links, and thus no one understands what OP is talking about.
i have seen the paradox of choice video before OP, and i understand where you are coming from. your idea of hiring implants is perhaps a clunky way of bringing your ideas down to the general IQ level of most of the people posting in this thread, which is why they all be hating on you.
Indeed. It would be nice if people familiarised themselves with videos before posting but this is the interwebz and one can hardly expect otherwise.
Originally by: Queue K'Umber OP seems to advocate turning EVE into Doom 3: Super Turbo Turkey Puncher 3.
CCP seems to advocate giving players as much freedom as they can manage and still maintain a high quality product..
I'm not suggesting putting players on a train ride or a blanket redesign. I'm suggesting targeted improvements to how choice is implemented in game design.
The approach you attribute to CCP is compatible with the approach I am advocating.
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Xeronn
Amarr ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2009.08.29 11:20:00 -
[32]
Wrong
Happines is directly linked in EvE to achieving a goal . Now that goal is whatever you want it to be . But , for me , i would be less happy about surviving another day unpoded if when poded i would suffer no real consequence .
I see where you`re coming from , and you are totaly out of place with your assumptions . 99% of the MMO`s out there actually act on your ideeas....go there - Would you be more happy if you wouldnt risk expensive stuff in pvp? Maybe you would be , i know i wouldnt. You advocate making EvE more "for the sheep" . You forget that in doing so , you would lose the current player base and...the sheep allso when the new WoW comes out
EvE is a friggin niche game....deal with it
- To the argument of "most people stay in empire" : DEAD WRONG . Most characters stay in empire...perhaps...but remember there are at least 3 , most of the time 6 characters per player . Out of my 6 characters 2 are in 0.0 and 4 are in empire . The same is valid for basicaly everyone i know
Ofc this entire post is bull**** , CCP will drag in the console hordes of 14yo`s ....so yeah...i`m just an old fool clinging to what EvE was suposed to be and pending my time on my 2 accounts left payd till december
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Sulg
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.29 11:56:00 -
[33]
Okay, Tara. I watched your videos during downtime-it was pretty convenient they were about 40 minutes total. In any case, I mostly disagree with the examples Barry uses, but I think he's an intelligent guy. Gilbert was very entertaining to watch, and I'll admit he surprised me with his quiz and the Dilbert comic was good.
Also, > Game design should consider pilot satisfaction when evaluating choice and the risk-reward equation. If you think CCP doesn't consider this when making their games...
> Give pilots meaningful choices that do NOT erode the satisfaction of making that choice. So, your solution to your example is...another choice.
I think the person who mentioned jump clones had a good point as well. Warp speed is not fast enough. We must go straight to...ludicrous speed! |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.08.29 12:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Tara Moss
Originally by: Kara Sharalien posting in a thread where no one actually bothered to watch the OP's video links, and thus no one understands what OP is talking about.
i have seen the paradox of choice video before OP, and i understand where you are coming from. your idea of hiring implants is perhaps a clunky way of bringing your ideas down to the general IQ level of most of the people posting in this thread, which is why they all be hating on you.
Indeed. It would be nice if people familiarised themselves with videos before posting but this is the interwebz and one can hardly expect otherwise.
Because obviously Kara the intelligence critic is NOT the alt of Tara the idiot OP... ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.08.29 12:10:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Xeronn remember there are at least 3 , most of the time 6 characters per player
This isn't even close to be being correct. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.08.29 12:21:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Tara Moss
Originally by: Kara Sharalien posting in a thread where no one actually bothered to watch the OP's video links, and thus no one understands what OP is talking about.
i have seen the paradox of choice video before OP, and i understand where you are coming from. your idea of hiring implants is perhaps a clunky way of bringing your ideas down to the general IQ level of most of the people posting in this thread, which is why they all be hating on you.
Indeed. It would be nice if people familiarised themselves with videos before posting but this is the interwebz and one can hardly expect otherwise.
Because obviously Kara the intelligence critic is NOT the alt of Tara the idiot OP...
actually kara is my alt. sorry, you lose, please play again. ------ I, for one, welcome our new console overlords! |
Kara Sharalien
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Posted - 2009.08.29 12:21:00 -
[37]
confirming alt status
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N'tek alar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.29 12:26:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sir Substance
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Tara Moss
Originally by: Kara Sharalien posting in a thread where no one actually bothered to watch the OP's video links, and thus no one understands what OP is talking about.
i have seen the paradox of choice video before OP, and i understand where you are coming from. your idea of hiring implants is perhaps a clunky way of bringing your ideas down to the general IQ level of most of the people posting in this thread, which is why they all be hating on you.
Indeed. It would be nice if people familiarised themselves with videos before posting but this is the interwebz and one can hardly expect otherwise.
Because obviously Kara the intelligence critic is NOT the alt of Tara the idiot OP...
actually kara is my alt. sorry, you lose, please play again.
Doesn't mean Tara Moss isn't also your alt *snickers* ------------------------- I'm not shirtless damnit! |
Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
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Posted - 2009.08.29 12:27:00 -
[39]
Originally by: N'tek alar
Originally by: Sir Substance
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Because obviously Kara the intelligence critic is NOT the alt of Tara the idiot OP...
actually kara is my alt. sorry, you lose, please play again.
Doesn't mean Tara Moss isn't also your alt *snickers*
well, i guess i cant prove that. ------ I, for one, welcome our new console overlords! |
Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.08.29 15:13:00 -
[40]
OP has a good point. There are some very bad tradeoffs in EvE. CCP can fix some of them without hurting the game
"Learning" skills are just crazy. Obvious timewasters - and worse, you have to come to terms with them very early in a character's life. Extremely unfriendly to new players.
Attribute implants are the same. To you maximize your training speed, you want to buy inmplants you can't afford to lose. Which makes any activity which means where you risk being podded unattractive. "Jumpclones" you say? Maybe But i can remember learning to PvP in my last game - certainly hundreds of hours - I'm not prepared to go without attribute implants for that kind of time.
It's similarly unfriendly to be forced to get inefficient Skill Level 5's before being able to use fancy gear, or train for a skill you need to open up another area of the game.
Some of the rookie-hostile aspects of EvE could be fixed easily, without making high-SP players feel unjustly treated (that is, the strident whining when any suggestion is made to make the game workable for rookies).
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.08.29 15:28:00 -
[41]
OP is assuming its somewhat of a design-goal of eve to make players happy. this is however not the case.
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Reiisha
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.29 16:44:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Reiisha on 29/08/2009 16:54:30 Edited by: Reiisha on 29/08/2009 16:50:34 Just sounds like someone is trying to make EVE like other MMO's. EVE is working fine like it is right now, and it's grown and prospered despite people calling it flawed and saying that it's going to die within 6 months.
There have already been numerous little changes which go along the lines the OP describes, but they all lead down a slippery slope of making EVE exactly like it's competitors, just with a different look - So far CCP has avoided going down that road, for the better.
Originally by: Gsptlsnz Some of the rookie-hostile aspects of EvE could be fixed easily, without making high-SP players feel unjustly treated (that is, the strident whining when any suggestion is made to make the game workable for rookies).
Thing is, those veterans enjoyed the game as it was (and is). Things have already gotten a LOT easier for rookies. The philosophy many people assume is the only right one is that rookies should be able to do everything veterans can within 1 week of being made, IE, "like in other mmo's". Problem here is that EVE is EVE, and not another MMO. It has worked it's way up to one of the most successful MMO's on the market, even over 6 years after it's release, "despite" being so unfriendly to rookies.
"If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
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Hairygoagain
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Posted - 2009.08.29 16:54:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Hairygoagain on 29/08/2009 16:54:32 Edited by: Hairygoagain on 29/08/2009 16:54:10 Wow, I've never seen so many people miss the point of the original post and express their random opinion in a thread outside of CAOD before.
The point the OP is making is valid, but the majority of the people replying don't understand what he actually said, they just saw couple of words they could read and went on a rant...
On a slight side note, to discuss the concept of choice and let the ranters earn their time on the forums: In the USA you claim you have choice, but you don't. Your stores stock lots of variations of the same thing. This isn't choice, it is the illusion of choice. Being able to choose from 56 makes of hot dog isn't choice. Being able to choose from hotdog or bratwurst or Lincolnshire is choice....
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Valeo Galaem
New Eden Advanced Reconnaissance Unit Sentient World Observation and Response Directive
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Posted - 2009.08.29 17:21:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Hairygoagain In the USA you claim you have choice, but you don't. Your stores stock lots of variations of the same thing. This isn't choice, it is the illusion of choice. Being able to choose from 56 makes of hot dog isn't choice. Being able to choose from hotdog or bratwurst or Lincolnshire is choice....
Since when do freedoms in the USA have to do with purchasing hot dogs? Are you implying that USA citizens are all hotdog munching, repressed, deluded consumers who are denied access to finer meats? What does this have to do with the already derailed thread?
/OT
I am familiar with the choice paradox. but the OPs argument seems to be supported not on the dilemma of too many choices, but on that they are perceived as being a narrow spectrum between easy/no risk and vary hard/lots of risk with not much graduating in between besides perhaps NPC encounters - which needless to say is the least engaging part of the game.
Thar be Pirates
You are not authorised to hack into CONCORD's mainframe Your Wallet has been emptied!
CONCORD Encryption Methods |
Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.08.29 17:58:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 29/08/2009 18:02:00
Originally by: Reiisha
Thing is, those veterans enjoyed the game as it was (and is). Things have already gotten a LOT easier for rookies. The philosophy many people assume is the only right one is that rookies should be able to do everything veterans can within 1 week of being made, IE, "like in other mmo's". Problem here is that EVE is EVE, and not another MMO. It has worked it's way up to one of the most successful MMO's on the market, even over 6 years after it's release, "despite" being so unfriendly to rookies.
This is a collection of EvE's "politically correct" beliefs. But only two of the statements are self-evident: the first, and the "EvE is EvE" one.
As a game, EvE is stable, but small and growing slowly. No high-SP players can understand the current rookie experience - having a lot of game knowledge, friends you can trust, and a huge pile of ISK completely insulates you from the rookie experience. I've *never* seen a rookie seriously wanting to be a high-SP player in one week - that's a cheap strawman argument.
What rookies want in this, as in any game:
1. An attractive long-term goal: EvE example - become a member of a territory-controlling 0.0 PvP Corp. 2. Have fun playing while you move towards your goal. This one is a serious problem for many rookies.
High-SP players are so busy defending their advantages, they're not prepared to even "listen" to suggestions to improve the rookie experience. I suppose this kind of selfishness is natural for the typical EvE player, and in the short term, making life unnecessarily unpleasant for rookies doesn't cost the experienced players anything.
But I don't really understand why EvE players are so relentlessly negative. If it turns out that CCP would like EvE to become a mainstream game, all of you high-SP players just might regret not participating in trying to improve the game. It's the surest way to have CCP turn EvE into "WoW in space".
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.08.29 18:12:00 -
[46]
The high amout of choices only hurt those that have no clue what they wont.
I consider this youtube thing total BS.
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AtheistOfDoom
Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.08.29 18:19:00 -
[47]
So pretty much what you want to do is remove the risk? bleh. Pew Pew Lazorz!!! |
Gsptlsnz
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Posted - 2009.08.29 18:28:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 29/08/2009 18:34:47
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom So pretty much what you want to do is remove the risk? bleh.
"Risk" in EvE is:
High-SP players earning 50 mill per hour fighting in Rifters Running like rabbits from any fight that gives you less than 10-1 odds Blob warfare with your Corp replacing any ship that's lost Groups of gankers permanently patrolling any 0.4 system to which an L1 Agent might send a rookie
The game is as it is. Nobody is complaining about the core design. But the myths that high-sp players use to convince themselves they are the kings of online gaming are no reason not to make EvE more fun for beginners.
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2009.08.29 18:48:00 -
[49]
EVE is seriously lacking in levelling dings.
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AtheistOfDoom
Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.08.29 19:20:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 29/08/2009 18:34:47
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom So pretty much what you want to do is remove the risk? bleh.
"Risk" in EvE is:
High-SP players earning 50 mill per hour fighting in Rifters Running like rabbits from any fight that gives you less than 10-1 odds Blob warfare with your Corp replacing any ship that's lost Groups of gankers permanently patrolling any 0.4 system to which an L1 Agent might send a rookie
The game is as it is. Nobody is complaining about the core design. But the myths that high-sp players use to convince themselves they are the kings of online gaming are no reason not to make EvE more fun for beginners.
LOVE the blatant generalization! 1. ? 2. ? 3. ? 4. ?
Where do you get your information? your ass perhaps? Pew Pew Lazorz!!! |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.29 19:21:00 -
[51]
Go to hell.
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Phony v2
Caldari Fist of Eargon The Jagged Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.29 19:35:00 -
[52]
i think you are 100% correct. The devs need to think about this and satisfaction when thinking for future expansions. ______________________________________________ Save a flame, post with your main! |
Undertow Latheus
Minmatar Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.08.29 19:39:00 -
[53]
lol
i take it you chose to have +5's then to be a dumbass and get podded? lolnub
this isnt about there being too much choice, which there isnt, its about you not liking getting podded with 500m worth of implants in your head
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bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.08.29 20:22:00 -
[54]
im currently sitting in a station because i don't want to lose my attribute implants which i need, and are absolutely required.
The current eve progression model favors people who play less instead of more, the opposite to every other mmo.
In any other mmo those who play more get an advantage, in eve if you do not play at all you still progress, only you do so with zero risk.
Where is risk vs reward? Sitting in station: zero risk, and since isk comes and goes, killmails are meaningless, the only real measurable quantity of your 'worth' in eve is how many skill points you have and in which skills.
There is that whole 'fun' idea, but the only things that are fun in eve are high risk and almost no reward at all compared to every single other thing you could be doing.
The solution then is that the only correct playstyle in eve is to sit in station with your +5 implants, training skills, until your character is absolutely perfect, and you have every single skill at 5 you would want at 5 for your playstyle and role. Then you can undock and not wory about implants.
Also pay CCP extra money via PLEX selling or an industrial/research alt to make you enough money to play your main doing the 'fun' thing of actually attacking people with out blobbing.
Its a good thing i enjoy ship spinning or i would not like this game at all. Im a ship spinning pro you know.
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Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
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Posted - 2009.08.29 20:49:00 -
[55]
1. Troll
2. wow, alts!
3. peΔis
4. that "My assets stop me pvp-ing **** is all a li:. Yes there are many pointless fights involving neutral reppers and such but theres a lot of fun to be had. Buy some t1 ships, insure them, maybe war-dec a 50 player empire corp or two and away you go.
Your ISK in EvE is going to do what? Turn itself magically into a real life asset? How much is enough exactly before you feel comfortable with loss? 100m? 1 bill? More?
Bottom line is pew-pew is undoubtedly the point of all the other activities in the game regardless of how you slant it and you should consider where the 'real' barrier to pvp is instead of generating walls to keep you from admitting,
you are scared of it.
Buy them, insure them, blow stuff up.
RB LDS @ Bclnc
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.08.29 21:00:00 -
[56]
well... hate to break it to you guys, but he's right. i'm sure somewhere in that literature it'll get to the bottom of it: that there's only the illusion of a choice. in a competative environment one simply has to adapt which basically means finding out the best way of survival (aka fotm) and perfect it. same with the +5 example. we're basically required to use them if we simply want to keep up.yesyes i know... pvp'ing in a rifter will always be possible. but let's face it: ishtars, curses and falcons on lvl5 just kill more people. sure, you can know all about autocannons and falloff and be a god at maneuvering. but dieing to the target still just happens more often as a minnie with this record-high number of desyncs than in a dps monster like the zealot.
sure, one can call it choice - the choice to fight the odds. and i'm happy enough with that. it just gets bad when you hurt your alliance by being minmatar, aka not in a megathron, geddon or scorpion/falcon. this has little to do with flavor but a downright imbalance that's relatively easy to fix as it wouldnt even n eed fiddling with mechanics. but the largest portion of dissatisfaction is the bugs, features, desyncs and lags. i consider myself a "fleet warrior" and basically all i know is jump/travel lag, huge module cycles while cap recharge remains the same - up to the point where one "exploits" this by using 4 remote reps on a phoon and still being cap stable etc... - putting the gist back into logistics |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.08.29 21:06:00 -
[57]
Aye ships are cheap, implants however...
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Kaptain Kruncher
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Posted - 2009.08.29 21:28:00 -
[58]
I am pro-choice.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.08.29 22:07:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Akita T on 29/08/2009 22:14:11
Originally by: Tara Moss But, what if your goal is to increase the happiness of the player base?
Luckily, it's not. The goal is to INCREASE the NUMBERS of players - not by keeping them happy, but by keeping them ANGRY.
It is done by keeping them perpetually wired, on the edge, angry, miserable, always wanting more, never satisfied with whatever they might have... but never TOO dissatisfied for too long either (or else they'd leave). If you end up happy too long (or worse, content most of the time), there's no more adrenaline, no more PERCEIVED challenge, you might as well quit (and, people who do too well end up quitting as often or even more often than people who do quite badly most of the time).
One critical assumption wrong, thread down the drain.
_
Info about our corp | Beginer's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.08.29 22:14:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider well... hate to break it to you guys, but he's right. i'm sure somewhere in that literature it'll get to the bottom of it: that there's only the illusion of a choice. in a competative environment one simply has to adapt which basically means finding out the best way of survival (aka fotm) and perfect it. same with the +5 example. we're basically required to use them if we simply want to keep up...
Wrong. The level 5 skill is still a level 5 skill, whether you use an implant to train it faster or not.
I've never used a +5 implant and I've played for about 4 years. My level 5 skills are no less effecient than any other level 5 skills. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
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