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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
453
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Posted - 2012.06.04 18:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dopified wrote: 1. NPC's, this is the most important aspect of system control in my opinion.
Sadly I agree with you. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
453
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Posted - 2012.06.04 19:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dopified wrote:Personally guys i would like to see you post constructive thoughts and criticizm about this topic of balanceing the FW plexes. Maybe if we can actually give ccp some good thoughts or ideas it will help them with time and ideas on what to do, as some of you have. I am hoping that in doing so we can help cutting down the work for them and time in researching more then anything. They are listening to us so please give your ideas on what should be changed or kept when balancing the NPC's in FW.
Do away with plex npcs entirely and let the militias know where plexes are being attacked. That way the players can fight for them instead of having the npcs play such a large role in who wins.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
453
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Posted - 2012.06.04 22:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dopified wrote:chatgris wrote:Dopified wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:I do not really know what you guys are planning, but real problem is not the rats in plexes.
there is several bigger problems that needs to be solved before anyone can decide what kind of rats are in plexes. I am finding it funny how caldari are the only ones who are resisting this topic and dont want it changed. They're still going to have by far the most useful rats (well, tied with Minmatar I guess, never ran against minnie rats) With the proposed changes a caldari guy can burn 30 off the rats in a caracal or drake, take no damage have no ewar and shoot with impunity. A gallente guy will still have to deal with the incoming damage. But the proposed changes are most definitely an improvement. Let me ask you this Chat for a temporary fix. If all rats missile spammed like caldari rats do and you took the ewar away would this not be a good temporary fix until a long term solution could be found? EW NPC's removed or not who cares we are just talking about the incoming damage. And yes i know and will say to CCP you would get even more grief for making the rats the same for all by being blamed Gallente bias. I would understand if you would not want to open that can of worms.
I think the loss of target painters will help us against the minmatar rats as well.
But yeah for a "quick fix" ccp should just make everyone face the same exact rats - just pick one race.
The long term fix should be to do away with rats entirely and let the players actually fight in the plexes. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
453
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Posted - 2012.06.04 23:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:Dopified wrote:Cearain wrote:I think the loss of target painters will help us against the minmatar rats as well.
But yeah for a "quick fix" ccp should just make everyone face the same exact rats - just pick one race.
The long term fix should be to do away with rats entirely and let the players actually fight in the plexes. I agree with it but maybe think that we stay with each races damage type seperately. For some like gallente they can not tank Explosive very well and thinking of that for the other militia's as well but missile spamming for all will deal the damage. But that would be the only change maybe not the Same rats if you meant one specific damage type. If that is not what you meant then i aggree with one type of rat that has the damage dealt the same for that militia it is dealing too. But i would say we need some kind of resistence in the plexes for when some are not on. Do you realize that you can solo every faction lvl 4's in a bomber? It's not just Minmatar & Caldari that can run solo bombers in missions.. Gal & Amarr can do the same it's just a bit harder and requires ships set up to do the job. Same with plexes.. Either way, plex NCP's changes do little to stop any "easy" mode plexing/mission farming because it then just requires a noob alt in MWD T1 frig to take aggro... If you want to fix plexing to stop noob alts from farming them, then just require all NPC's must be killed in order to complete the plex & then we can have more PVE in FW. Even then 1 noob Thrasher can run any minor with a 3 day old skilled alt & kill all the NPC's.
What set up do you use to run all the amarr level 4 missions solo in a stealth bomber? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.05 12:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: I think the loss of target painters will help us against the minmatar rats as well.
No target painters/webs = "afk plexing incursus" for missile spam plexes.
So what? Until the militia players are notified of the plexes being attacked (or something else that makes it more of a pvp activity) it will always be a lame pve mechanic. Making you need to use a bigger pve ship is like trying to polish a turd.
CCP talked about making plexxing a pvp activity, but they did not deliver. They still need to work on this imo. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.05 18:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:CCP talked about making plexxing a pvp activity, but they did not deliver. They still need to work on this imo. There's NO WAY any activity in Eve can be a pvp activity if one side chooses to not engage. If you can tell us how to force both sides to engage, then let's hear it. There can only be consequences if one side chooses not to engage. The short term consequences (have to sit on button for a long time, have to continue to defend bunker forever while wts are free to do what they want) are a penalty to most of the people who won (either by pvp, or because the other side bailed), not the people who lost (either fled or were killed).
You assume the only way to promote pvp is to force someone to engage. Thats simply not true.
A notification system combined with the ending of the stupid station lock out rule would promote much more pvp in plexes.
Why are so many people doing afk plexes? Because they can get away with it very easilly. Why can they get away with it? Because no one wants to keep chasing them to keep eyes on where they are going.
Solution: Have the npcs keep eyes on them and report when they enter plexes. That way the pvpers can be fighting or doing timers assured that their work isn't just going to be undone by alt plexers the minute they leave system.
We don't force them to pvp but we take away allot of their efficiency at alt plexing. It brings us much closer to the ultimate goal of having everyone who enters a plex be fit and ready to fight for it.
This combined with something like the timer count down would go a long way. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.05 20:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:Abannan wrote:I can't think of any other way of getting aroudn the afk plexing alts apart from making the plexes progressivly harder. Just have to decide which is the lesser of two evils It's quite easy: require the destruction of the NPCs. ....no one reads.....
Flying for amarr I typically have to kill all the npcs in the plexes I am in, and it still seems like pve to me. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.06 03:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Commissar Veldt wrote:I do hope this 'temporary re-balancing' removal of electronic warfare isnt the start of a new trend... Im sure nobody would enjoy all having to fly the same ship types into generic complex #03 to destroy the same NPC's/pilots who use the same turrets to hit for the same damage type just so we can all sit comfortably in the knowledge that we are all on a completely equal playing field... \
Unless you fly for more than one militia you basically get this now.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.06 14:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
If everything is pretty much the same why is there so much resistance to having the npcs switch around every now and then?
Why are there no fits posted to support these claims?
Actually they could have some gallente plexes guarded by cooperating minmatar npcs and some minmatar plexes guarded by gallente. The amarr and caldari could also cooperate in this fashion. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.06 15:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
At base CCP needs to decide if they want occupancy plexing to remain an activity that is best done in a pve ship or if they want to make it a pvp activity.
To the extent they increase the power and importance of npcs, they will make it more of a pve activity.
To the extent they make it easier for players to fight for plexes, they will make it more of a pvp activity. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
458
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Posted - 2012.06.06 21:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jones looks pretty cool in his goggles.
Mutnin and XG, not so much.
Why is that?
I do think it would be mildly amusing to see an animation of XG and Mutnin arguing with eachother about how to count to 7 in their goggles.
Maybe ccp should give up on faction war and go back to working on incarna. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.08 03:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:You can clear minors with a pvp frig/dessie. You can clear mediums with a pvp cruiser/AF. You can clear majors with a pvp BC/HAC.
I honestly do not understand why people would run anything but these.
Depends who you fly for. For amarr most pvp BCs will not be able to run major plex after major plex without docking to repair or get more cap boosters. Even with the restricted majors. The unrestricted majors you are looking at a pve bc or battleship.
Mediums can be run in certain shield tanked cruisers but almost any buffer armor tank is a no go. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Cearain wrote: Depends who you fly for. For amarr most pvp BCs will not be able to run major plex after major plex without docking to repair or get more cap boosters. Even with the restricted majors. The unrestricted majors you are looking at a pve bc or battleship.
Mediums can be run in certain shield tanked cruisers but almost any buffer armor tank is a no go.
Buffer Armor ships are always a bad idea if you do not have a place to dock and repair. We are pretty consistently running Majors in groups of cruisers/frigs but I can easily solo them in a standard combat Drake. A shield Harb or Zealot would do way more DPS than my Drake and clear a major even faster. I used self repping AFs or Frigs pretty often too. Honestly, I don't see what the problem is. Plexes are easy to run with standard combat fits.
These comments are just regarding those fighting for amarr against the minmatar npcs:
Lots of people like buffer armor tanks for pvp. Especially at the cruiser level. No 1600 plate ruptures,vexors or thoraxes. Unless you want to kite them but then you are not on the button the whole time. As you say, you can't use them to run plexes.
But even a shield rupture can't solo them well or at all depending on the type. Even if you can make it before hitting armor you will likely have to warp off if an enemy comes. If someone else started the plex earlier and you have the build up of npcs forget about it.
If your favorite pvp cruiser is the caracal or some other active tank cruiser (I can't even think of one non faction t1 cruiser that I active tank) then you are right you will have no problem soloing the mediums in them. Otherwise though your options are a pretty limitted.
You can run closed majors in a heavy missile drake. But I would say running them in a ham drake will force you to run if any enemy pvpers that come during the majority of the time you are orbitting the button - unless you want to fight with less than half your tank.
Zealot I haven't tried. I generally like to fly cheaper/insurable ships in faction war. Shield harb does not work well, at least not the pulse harb I used. I haven't used a shield cane, but based on my experience with the ham drake its pretty unlikely to work, but the explosive damage profile may make it work out ok.
Have you soloed a major in any other ship besides a heavy missile drake? For the majority of the time you were there, if an enemy cam in, in the same sort of ship would you have to warp off? I generally go into plexes looking for pvp so fits where my tank is just about to break under npc fire is not really a good option for me.
But again we are talking only about restricted majors. Unrestricted majors you will likely have to warp out and kite off the button even in a heavy missile drake that is set up for pvp. They are very hard for even a non top skilled mostly pve dominix.
I don't fly allot of active tank pvp ships (and the few, I do use, use cap charges) so that might just be the difference between your experience and mine. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.09 04:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Nothing is stopping you from running plexes with armor ships. I use armor thrashers for minors and armor Vexors (think drones \o/) for mediums. For majors I would imagine you at least have to fit a local rep on a myrm/cane/harb/etc. ...
The difference is I do not "imagine" it. I actually have run them in different fits. I have tried running them in a myrm and in a ham drake and in a shield harby.
Ill ask again, have you run major plexes solo, in bcs other than a heavy missile drake? Because until you have I am not sure why you are pushing this issue.
As far as fitting a local rep I do that on my myrm. But no I typically don't fit local reps on my pvp armor canes or harbies. On my myrm I end up eating my cap boosters to the point that if I run more than one major I will likely be out of them if any enemy comes to pvp.
Jones Bones wrote: Your arguments are not valid for me. Plexes never get my shield Rupture below 90% and my Drake never dips below 80% in majors. Your argument sounds like: I should be able to run a plex against NPCs solo and fight whatever player comes to kill me without a thought to my fit.
Well I admit that I stopped running plexes in my shield rupture so perhaps the rats have changed. But my shield rupture fit would always get below 50% even when i would attack the swarms as they came in. Now if you are kiting them and leaving the orbit button that is a different story. Yes you can kite them outside the orbit range and keep your shield at whatever. But it takes allot longer to run the plexes.
If you go into a plex where the rats already started spawning and so you have the mass of them then you can forget it in a rupture. You will spend so much time kiting them outside the orbit range you would be better off doing 3 other new medium plexes in that same time.
Jones Bones wrote: Good luck with that. BTW, I've ran majors with 2 thrashers. Also, I do not think unrestricted majors were designed to be soloed by a BC. There's a reason they are unrestricted...
I am sure you can run a major with 2 ships. Have one collect aggro etc. If you just have them both basically fighting the rats in pure pvp fits at the button I would think you would have to do warp outs. But I will admit I do not dual box so I don't know. I do know I was in a coercer and I was going to try to fight a thrasher and 2 t1 frigates in a major but before I could even mwd into disruptor range the rats were tearing into me so bad I had to warp out. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.11 17:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:I've soloed majors in a daul prop Vengeance.
I honestly don't get the problems people have with plexing, except of course the ECM.
The issue is you can't stay to pvp when enemies come in.
Perhaps you can manage to sig tank the rats with the vengeance's peculiar amarr t2 resists. But your enemies can come with battlecruisers and cruisers into a major. Are you going to fight for that plex when that happens or just warp off?
If you just warp off you are just basically trying to pve your way to victory. Thats why your example of pveing your way to victory in a vengeance instead of flying the more powerful ships that these plexes allow actually proves there is a problem.
If you use a ship that these plexes are meant for, (with a few exceptions) then the rats will do too much damage for you to stay and fight if any wartargets come. That is my main problem with the minmatar rats. Most pvp fits don't work in these plexes. You are stuck with just a few fits. Caracal for the mediums and heavy missile drake for majors - if you want to pvp with the more powerful ships that can enter that plex. (yeah you can use navy cruisers as well but they are a bit too pricey for me, and few enemies will want to fight you when you have one of them anyway.) Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.12 20:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alain Colcer wrote:After Reading all pages (and being a bit embarrassed by all the smack happening) i would like to make a review post:
-People have agreed that the timer should restore itself to starting point, when an enemy has been successfully pushed away before its completion. -People have agreed that defensive plexing currently does not offer any reward at all, it should, albeit at a much lower rate than offensive plexing. -People have mentioned they wish FW NPCs behave a bit more intelligent -People have mentioned the idea of making the requirement to clear NPCs first before being able to run the timer (or button) on the complex..
I'm not sure I agree defensive plexing gives no rewards. The lack of individual rewards for defensive plexing seems to be the only thing to provide balance here. I'm not saying I would be against some very small benefit (although I do think you get standings gains) but I think its too early to call this. I would say leave it as is until we have something evidence this is a problem.
I'm not sure people agree that the rats should be more intelligent as in some sort of sleeper ai. In fact I think most agree it shouldn't. I know I have no interest in matching wits with a computer ai and would prefer rats play less of a role in plexing.
As for 1)the timer going down when chased out and 2) killing all the rats I agree there has only been mostly positive responses for those proposals.
Alain Colcer wrote: Now let me add a few other aspects:
1) "Plexing", is an activity that albeit done in groups provide better safety, does not provide increased returns. In fact, fleets of people plexing obtain better results by splitting and running multiple sites simultaneously...
I think that is how it should be. I am against artificial pay increases for doing the same job just because you use more people. If a pilot(s) is/are good enough at pvp to capture a plex with fewer people they should get greater rewards.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.12 20:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Cearain wrote: If you use a ship that these plexes are meant for, (with a few exceptions) then the rats will do too much damage for you to stay and fight if any wartargets come. That is my main problem with the minmatar rats. Most pvp fits don't work in these plexes. You are stuck with just a few fits. Caracal for the mediums and heavy missile drake for majors - if you want to pvp with the more powerful ships that can enter that plex. (yeah you can use navy cruisers as well but they are a bit too pricey for me, and few enemies will want to fight you when you have one of them anyway.)
/me shrugs I have over 100 kills this month and probably half of them are insides plexes or on the gate of a plex. New system is working as intended IMHO.
We addressed specific issues about major and medium plexes and now you are just back tracking to vague generalities.
I agreed that minor plexes present no real problems for most pvp fits.
By including fights on the gate of a plex you of course won't have problems with npcs.
I can say that I pretty much never run major plexes or get any pvp inside major plexes due to the rats. I mainly just run minors because the mediums and major plexes are too limiting as to what I can fly.
I would guess about 80-90% of my pvp fights are inside plexes. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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