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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
59
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Posted - 2012.06.08 02:18:00 -
[211] - Quote
A possible solution for defensive plexing might be to replace/add the LP to the system that otherwise would have been taken if the plex was captured offensively - this gives the defensive plexer that little bit of tangible reward without physically giving them anything.
So: If 10k LP would have been given to the group offensively plexing (5k from the bunker and 5k from space) then a defensive plex of the same level would regenerate that 5k LP into the bunker.
Thoughts? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
180
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Posted - 2012.06.08 03:00:00 -
[212] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:...Thoughts? If the amount returned to the bunker is equal to what is lost by offensive means, then every system need only be invested in once per flip-cycle .. makes for a very poor LP sink. Defensive plexing is by its nature a lot less demanding, doubly so with docking denial for attackers, and while some sort of payment is in order for defensive work (time is spent regardless) then it does not have to be a lot .. must not expand on the FarmVilleGäó concept any further after all
25% percent of a given plex value into the pilots pocket and another 25% into the bunker (provided it has been drained by attack)., that should be more than enough to make defence worth while if/when the upgrade trees are made more relevant to FW.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.08 03:19:00 -
[213] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:You can clear minors with a pvp frig/dessie. You can clear mediums with a pvp cruiser/AF. You can clear majors with a pvp BC/HAC.
I honestly do not understand why people would run anything but these.
Depends who you fly for. For amarr most pvp BCs will not be able to run major plex after major plex without docking to repair or get more cap boosters. Even with the restricted majors. The unrestricted majors you are looking at a pve bc or battleship.
Mediums can be run in certain shield tanked cruisers but almost any buffer armor tank is a no go. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Yuri Szarkhov
State Protectorate Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.06.08 04:33:00 -
[214] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Yuri Szarkhov wrote:Winning is in the momentum, which we certainly have. Hey by both of our definitions, Gallente FW is winning! How about that?
I'm curious about the length of your yardstick on that measurement.
It seems to me that since the "Rules of the War" changed (May 22) The Caldari have taken a sum of nine systems, one of which the Gallente recovered yesterday (Immuri) and two of which are Gallente Sovereign systems (Odamia and Ladistier.) So, that leaves six in the Caldari "neigbourhood" we've taken since the Inferno patch went live.
That's not so bad, considering how many (mysself included) expected the war to completely stagnate after Inferno.
In that time the Gallente have taken a total of three systems, one of which being Immuri, which we took only a few days prior. Two in the last two days.
It may also be worthy to note that none of the systems the Gallente militia took in this time contain stations.
So, eight systems taken and held versus three in the same period.
I'll grant that if our efforts stall and we cease the taking of systems and the Gallente pick up their pace this could be a "turning point." But, it really doesn't look that way. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
261
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Posted - 2012.06.08 04:45:00 -
[215] - Quote
I thought you were talking about momentum such as Gallente flipping two systems (Nagamennan and Immuri) in the past 24 hours, and destroying a Caldari fleet in Alamel that itself was trying to bust a bunker - and still haven't for whatever reason. (Probably because you didn't want that system anyways or something like that).
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Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
10
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Posted - 2012.06.08 06:43:00 -
[216] - Quote
Dopified wrote:My origional arguement was that caldari and minmatar can do this with all three plex sizes in a pvp t1 frig.
You are a MINMATAR, so what is the problem? By your own words you should be raking in the lp by taking all size plexes in your t1 frigate. |
Jones Bones
Imperial Outlaws
81
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:55:00 -
[217] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Depends who you fly for. For amarr most pvp BCs will not be able to run major plex after major plex without docking to repair or get more cap boosters. Even with the restricted majors. The unrestricted majors you are looking at a pve bc or battleship.
Mediums can be run in certain shield tanked cruisers but almost any buffer armor tank is a no go.
Buffer Armor ships are always a bad idea if you do not have a place to dock and repair.
We are pretty consistently running Majors in groups of cruisers/frigs but I can easily solo them in a standard combat Drake. A shield Harb or Zealot would do way more DPS than my Drake and clear a major even faster.
I used self repping AFs or Frigs pretty often too. Honestly, I don't see what the problem is. Plexes are easy to run with standard combat fits.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
261
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:58:00 -
[218] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote: Plexes are easy to run with standard combat fits.
Which is how it should be. The only question is how to make them easy to run with standard combat fits but make it a PITA to run with PvE frigs. Allow appropriate sized ships to have an advantage in the appropriate sized plex. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
155
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:04:00 -
[219] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Yuri Szarkhov wrote:Winning is in the momentum, which we certainly have. Redefining words is something you certainly do. Bad Messenger wrote:that does not take long. Not disagreeing, but it needs to happen first.
Yea, still waiting when Gallente takes all systems, Andreus Ixibis already celebrated it so hard beforehand. |
Nave Drallig
Astra Enterprises Happy Endings
1
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:08:00 -
[220] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:So lame, Allies shouldn't be able to help one another. That's madness! Vaal Erit wrote:Speaking of lame mechanics, I heard that people can exploit the LP mechanics by joining the minmatar faction (who is winning with t4 bonuses) and still run gallente plex to gain minmatar LP, which is worth more because gallente is at t1 right now. Thus gallente can leech off of the victorious minmatar even though they didn't do anything. Or maybe I'm wrong, I haven't tried that yet.
so i am curious how running caldari plex's is assisting your allies??
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
112
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:23:00 -
[221] - Quote
Nave Drallig wrote:Princess Nexxala wrote:So lame, Allies shouldn't be able to help one another. That's madness! Vaal Erit wrote:Speaking of lame mechanics, I heard that people can exploit the LP mechanics by joining the minmatar faction (who is winning with t4 bonuses) and still run gallente plex to gain minmatar LP, which is worth more because gallente is at t1 right now. Thus gallente can leech off of the victorious minmatar even though they didn't do anything. Or maybe I'm wrong, I haven't tried that yet.
so i am curious how running caldari plex's is assisting your allies??
The caldari militia is at WAR with the minmatar militia. You're hurting the enemy of the minmatar militia. |
Nave Drallig
Astra Enterprises Happy Endings
1
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:31:00 -
[222] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Nave Drallig wrote:Princess Nexxala wrote:So lame, Allies shouldn't be able to help one another. That's madness! Vaal Erit wrote:Speaking of lame mechanics, I heard that people can exploit the LP mechanics by joining the minmatar faction (who is winning with t4 bonuses) and still run gallente plex to gain minmatar LP, which is worth more because gallente is at t1 right now. Thus gallente can leech off of the victorious minmatar even though they didn't do anything. Or maybe I'm wrong, I haven't tried that yet.
so i am curious how running caldari plex's is assisting your allies?? The caldari militia is at WAR with the minmatar militia. You're hurting the enemy of the minmatar militia. It's also quite amusing to see this being called an exploit: I don't think any QCATS have +5 to Caldari to permanently avoid rat aggro, and the documentation on FW has always been clear that allied factions can attack the dungeons of both of the militias they are at war with.
ok still dont see me refering to this as an exploit. just pointing out that you are trying to make something sound like your comming to the rescue when in reality your just taking advantage of that "sweet sweet mini LP" as one of your corp mates labeled it earlier.
also Chatgris is a char named Hatgris attached to you at all? caught him afk plexing last night in an altron of all things. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
460
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:38:00 -
[223] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Cearain wrote: Depends who you fly for. For amarr most pvp BCs will not be able to run major plex after major plex without docking to repair or get more cap boosters. Even with the restricted majors. The unrestricted majors you are looking at a pve bc or battleship.
Mediums can be run in certain shield tanked cruisers but almost any buffer armor tank is a no go.
Buffer Armor ships are always a bad idea if you do not have a place to dock and repair. We are pretty consistently running Majors in groups of cruisers/frigs but I can easily solo them in a standard combat Drake. A shield Harb or Zealot would do way more DPS than my Drake and clear a major even faster. I used self repping AFs or Frigs pretty often too. Honestly, I don't see what the problem is. Plexes are easy to run with standard combat fits.
These comments are just regarding those fighting for amarr against the minmatar npcs:
Lots of people like buffer armor tanks for pvp. Especially at the cruiser level. No 1600 plate ruptures,vexors or thoraxes. Unless you want to kite them but then you are not on the button the whole time. As you say, you can't use them to run plexes.
But even a shield rupture can't solo them well or at all depending on the type. Even if you can make it before hitting armor you will likely have to warp off if an enemy comes. If someone else started the plex earlier and you have the build up of npcs forget about it.
If your favorite pvp cruiser is the caracal or some other active tank cruiser (I can't even think of one non faction t1 cruiser that I active tank) then you are right you will have no problem soloing the mediums in them. Otherwise though your options are a pretty limitted.
You can run closed majors in a heavy missile drake. But I would say running them in a ham drake will force you to run if any enemy pvpers that come during the majority of the time you are orbitting the button - unless you want to fight with less than half your tank.
Zealot I haven't tried. I generally like to fly cheaper/insurable ships in faction war. Shield harb does not work well, at least not the pulse harb I used. I haven't used a shield cane, but based on my experience with the ham drake its pretty unlikely to work, but the explosive damage profile may make it work out ok.
Have you soloed a major in any other ship besides a heavy missile drake? For the majority of the time you were there, if an enemy cam in, in the same sort of ship would you have to warp off? I generally go into plexes looking for pvp so fits where my tank is just about to break under npc fire is not really a good option for me.
But again we are talking only about restricted majors. Unrestricted majors you will likely have to warp out and kite off the button even in a heavy missile drake that is set up for pvp. They are very hard for even a non top skilled mostly pve dominix.
I don't fly allot of active tank pvp ships (and the few, I do use, use cap charges) so that might just be the difference between your experience and mine. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
112
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:42:00 -
[224] - Quote
Nave Drallig wrote: ok still dont see me refering to this as an exploit. just pointing out that you are trying to make something sound like your comming to the rescue when in reality your just taking advantage of that "sweet sweet mini LP" as one of your corp mates labeled it earlier.
also Chatgris is a char named Hatgris attached to you at all? caught him afk plexing last night in an altron of all things.
The "exploit" part I was referring to who you quoted.
also, I believe I was the corp mate who called it "sweet sweet minnie LP"
Yes, game mechanics wise I am enjoying the minmatar LP. But the Minmatar are allied with the Gallente, and the Caldari is at war with them both, and I am attacking the Caldari. I see that as a pretty clear "I am attacking the entity that you are at war with, therefore I am helping you".
And I have no idea who Hatgris is, definitely not my alt. This wouldn't be the first time someone has made an alt name close to mine (See Chatgrus). |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
591
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:59:00 -
[225] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey,
We currently are looking at NPCs in the FW complexes. The plan is to remove all NPCs doing EW in all factions to equalize difficulty a bit. We won't touch the missile spam for now however as most of the NPCs are used in missions as well, but this should help a bit until we get into a proper iteration of this for this winter. This also won't apply for FW missions, only FW complexes for now.
We also are looking into an issue that prevents FW complexes from despawning properly, which in turn prevents new sites from spawning until the next downtime. Estimated time for such changes is to have them out as soon as possible (sorry, can't give estimate though, still working on them as we speak).
Hope that helps a bit.
*yawn* again with the 'lets balance it by making everything the same'? CCP Ytterbium, you should be able to do better then that. You HAVE to do better then that.
How about balancing it by FINALLY adding some dynamic balancing mechanics to the game? Have the game keep track of completion rates, popularity , etc and have it adjust the difficulty on the fly by adding more ships with other abilities, or other nasty stuff.
The good thing about this is that you don't have to redo the whole thing manually again next year if CCP launches some new ships totally putting everything on it's head again.
Achieve balance by giving the other factions their own curve-balls to deal with, not simply remove all curve-balls! Be creative! Gallente plexes are too easy? Fine, have the game automatically start throwing stasis towers in the mix until the metrics match those of the Caldari.
Besides, equalizing downwards by making stuff easier is NOT the direction that belongs in EVE! Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
112
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:02:00 -
[226] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Besides, equalizing downwards by making stuff easier is NOT the direction that belongs in EVE!
This isn't meant to be pve content that's just being made easier: The rats are being adjusted so they do not impede PVP so much.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
180
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:02:00 -
[227] - Quote
Quote:...but this should help a bit until we get into a proper iteration of this for this winter. Rather pivotal line hidden in there .. he should have bolded it but 'meh' |
Jones Bones
Imperial Outlaws
81
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:06:00 -
[228] - Quote
Nothing is stopping you from running plexes with armor ships. I use armor thrashers for minors and armor Vexors (think drones \o/) for mediums. For majors I would imagine you at least have to fit a local rep on a myrm/cane/harb/etc.
Your arguments are not valid for me. Plexes never get my shield Rupture below 90% and my Drake never dips below 80% in majors. Your argument sounds like: I should be able to run a plex against NPCs solo and fight whatever player comes to kill me without a thought to my fit.
Good luck with that. BTW, I've ran majors with 2 thrashers. Also, I do not think unrestricted majors were designed to be soloed by a BC. There's a reason they are unrestricted... |
Jones Bones
Imperial Outlaws
81
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:08:00 -
[229] - Quote
I guess I honestly don't understand any of the issues you're complaining about. I plex in solo PVP fits all the time. No problems. And I get a ton of kills. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
112
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:10:00 -
[230] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:I guess I honestly don't understand any of the issues you're complaining about. I plex in solo PVP fits all the time. No problems. And I get a ton of kills.
It will be a lot better once they remove EWAR from the rats: I have serious problems running a major in my drake due to the time I spend jammed (often a minute at a time). |
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Tobiaz
Spacerats
591
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:11:00 -
[231] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Tobiaz wrote:Besides, equalizing downwards by making stuff easier is NOT the direction that belongs in EVE! This isn't meant to be pve content that's just being made easier: The rats are being adjusted so they do not impede PVP so much.
There's nothing wrong with having to fight on a obstacle course. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
112
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:12:00 -
[232] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:chatgris wrote:Tobiaz wrote:Besides, equalizing downwards by making stuff easier is NOT the direction that belongs in EVE! This isn't meant to be pve content that's just being made easier: The rats are being adjusted so they do not impede PVP so much. There's nothing wrong with having to fight on a obstacle course.
Try getting a thorax into structure in a thrasher, and then being jammed for 3 full cycles (60s!) unable to do anything but sit there and die :P. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
591
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Posted - 2012.06.08 18:18:00 -
[233] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Tobiaz wrote:chatgris wrote:Tobiaz wrote:Besides, equalizing downwards by making stuff easier is NOT the direction that belongs in EVE! This isn't meant to be pve content that's just being made easier: The rats are being adjusted so they do not impede PVP so much. There's nothing wrong with having to fight on a obstacle course. Try getting a thorax into structure in a thrasher, and then being jammed for 3 full cycles (60s!) unable to do anything but sit there and die :P.
I'll agree that ECM balance has issues, but this is an overall problem, which should be addressed instead of just removing all NPC that the players deem annoying.
Something like reducing ECM cycles to 5 seconds and giving drones the option to prioritize and auto-engage jamming ships. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Major Killz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2012.06.08 20:46:00 -
[234] - Quote
Interesting. Alot of the same arguments, issues, problems and concerns that have been made since the inception of faction warfare. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
113
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Posted - 2012.06.08 20:54:00 -
[235] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Interesting. Alot of the same arguments, issues, problems and concerns that have been made since the inception of faction warfare.
Except now CCP is actually trying to fix the issues, for which myself (and many others) are quite thankful for. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
263
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Posted - 2012.06.08 23:17:00 -
[236] - Quote
Nave Drallig wrote:also Chatgris is a char named Hatgris attached to you at all? caught him afk plexing last night in an altron of all things. Hatgris is part of our legion of afk plexing atrons that are currently being onlined to help clean up the mess of people like you in afk plexing Merlins.
Lame? Yes. Necessary? Yes (adapt or die, right?). Otherwise we will be bored to tears running defensive plexes with our mains.
Should there be a mechanic that discourages weaponless T1 frigs from influencing the Occupancy War that doesn't involve chasing rabbits forever? Definitely. Hopefully CCP will get on it ASAP. (Suggestions: Kill all NPCs requirement for offensive, timer speed for defensive plexes based on ship brought to plex, timer moves back to baseline zero quickly if nobody is on button). |
Nave Drallig
Astra Enterprises Happy Endings
1
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Posted - 2012.06.08 23:23:00 -
[237] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Nave Drallig wrote:also Chatgris is a char named Hatgris attached to you at all? caught him afk plexing last night in an altron of all things. Hatgris is part of our legion of afk plexing atrons that are currently being onlined to help clean up the mess of people like you in afk plexing Merlins. Lame? Yes. Necessary? Yes (adapt or die, right?). Otherwise we will be bored to tears running defensive plexes with our mains. Should there be a mechanic that discourages weaponless T1 frigs from influencing the Occupancy War? Definitely. Hopefully CCP will get on it ASAP. (Suggestions: Kill all NPCs requirement for offensive, timer speed for defensive plexes based on ship brought to plex).
see as previously stated i play to win. and thats what im doing, if this requires exploiting a loophole im all for it. and dont do that holier then thou crap. i was chasing your afk plexers out long before i started doing it, i just embraced it as a valid tactic before you. but i see even you Qcats are now down playing in the mud and that makes me smile because it shows your adapting and will make this war even more fun. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
263
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Posted - 2012.06.08 23:33:00 -
[238] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Major Killz wrote:Interesting. Alot of the same arguments, issues, problems and concerns that have been made since the inception of faction warfare. Except now CCP is actually trying to fix the issues, for which myself (and many others) are quite thankful for. If you take a step back and try not to take the rules to their logical extremes FW plex fighting is pretty fun.
Plexes were intended to provide ship limited combat that isn't found as much anywhere else in Eve due to "hot drop itis" and other ways of ganking the hell out of potential targets. And in this, they actually work out really well.
They are also tied to occupancy warfare and the issue here is that ships not intended to be used in them (unfit T1 crap frigates for both defensive and offensive) can be used to solo them. Just as it sucks that a T1 crap frig can solo an offensive major, it sucks that an unfit Atron can solo a defensive major as well. CCP ought to provide a mechanic that encourages players to bring the properly sized ship for the properly sized plex. If an unfit ship can close an unrestricted major in 20 minutes, it ought to be an unfit Battleship so that there is more risk to their wallet if somebody figures out a way to gank them. If somebody wants to bring an unfit atron to the unrestricted plex, it ought to take them 3 hours to close it, or something ridiculous like that to encourage them to ship up.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
263
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Posted - 2012.06.08 23:34:00 -
[239] - Quote
Nave Drallig wrote:see as previously stated i play to win. and thats what im doing, if this requires exploiting a loophole im all for it. and dont do that holier then thou crap. i was chasing your afk plexers out long before i started doing it, i just embraced it as a valid tactic before you. but i see even you Qcats are now down playing in the mud and that makes me smile because it shows your adapting and will make this war even more fun. I hope you agree that both are lame tactics. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
294
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Posted - 2012.06.08 23:44:00 -
[240] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Yes, game mechanics wise I am enjoying the minmatar LP. But the Minmatar are allied with the Gallente, and the Caldari is at war with them both, and I am attacking the Caldari. I see that as a pretty clear "I am attacking the entity that you are at war with, therefore I am helping you, on top of that fact we are in fact allies".
And it's not just the LP making me think this is OK. Before I was in the Minmatar militia for the LP if you read the forum thread "There are only two militias" you'll see I was pretty pissed about SOTF assisting the Amarr against the Minmatar. I see FW as two groups of two allied militias fighting alongside each other. The Gallente Federation even assisted the Minmatar in gaining freedom in the first place.
Except for the fact that this is not how FW works. You know this. There are basically two wars going on, Matar vs. Amarr and Gallente vs. Caldari. They are in different regions and far apart. With a few rare exceptions, the allied militias do not cooperate and do not help each other.
Fact is that it doesn't make sense that the matar reward you for taking caldari plexs over the gallente. The gallente are the main enemies of caldari, matar are secondary. CCP was also very clear in their FW dev blog that they wanted to award the winning side, hoping on the winning side because your side is losing(or winning w/e I'm not trying to troll here) shouldn't be rewarded.
But I will admit if I was gallente militia I'd do the same thing and come up with crazy logic defying reasons to keep my awesome lp store and bonuses too. It's a clever exploit of the mechanics (or the rest of gallente are too dumb to do it) so kudos for that. But this entire thread is about making things fair whether it be speed tanking majors (a problem since day 0 of FW) or other mechanics. |
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